OMG it's a tier list

[Progenitus]

No, that's not what I'm implying; that's what you want me to imply so you can conveniently counter it. In fact I don't even understand what you want me to imply, because as long as unit A + some random unit B can kill, it is fine and dandy.

No, that is definitely what you are implying.

Astrid MUST attack with a high tier if she wants to kill an enemy off, even if we threw multiple energy drops on her, while we could just have Lyre with even less energy drops than Astrid got attack with like a fucking mid tier to still kill it because she just flat out wins damage.

X unit with inferior offense to Y unit must be attacking with A unit to kill an enemy off, while Y unit could have attacked with A unit or B unit or C unit or D unit to kill it. This is why Y unit wins offense. That's how offense lead works. That's why we actually give a shit that someone like Neph outdamages someone like Boyd since she doubles and he doesn't. We don't say "oh well Boyd + high tier can kill an enemy off, so we don't care if Neph + mid tier could do the same job, Boyd's making himself useful!". It's not "oh well if you don't one round, fuck you your offense doesn't matter"

The only time Lyre won't be doing more damage than Astrid is if we don't bother to consider any favoritism at all, at which point fuck Astrid too, because if we're not giving favoritism to them, we're giving it to the rest of the team, and since apparently everyone on the team is top/high tier, they're now one rounding everything with or without Astrid or Lyre's help.

Astrid doesn't require any protection up front and Lyre's grass problems are far more severe than Ulki's (people do care about Ranulf's transformation problems, btw).

Astrid requires that you at LEAST make a wall for her to canto back behind, which isn't always convenient (what if your frontliners want to blast ahead and make a scattered formation? I sometimes do that, since, you know, I want to beat the chapter, not dick around so I can feed kills to Astrid).

And people only care about Ranulf's transformation problems to the extent that he's only in upper mid tier. He's still a very good unit. The gauge only hurts you so much.

There is 1 soldier on the map. Shows how much you know.

I said FE7 enemies in general are a joke (that means almost all of them, dipshit. shows how much YOU know), at least a far bigger joke than FE10 enemies. FE7 soldiers are just beyond being a joke. If you cared to even read my sentence, I said "especially" soldiers, you fucking retard.

No, actually, these range from cavaliers to fighters to shamans, and both of them do like 5-7 damage per hit, so FE7 enemies being jokes has nothing to do with anything because they're in the same situation as Astrid, except they can't canto away or attack without risk of counter.

If the enemies are "cavaliers, fighters, shamans", Lyn and Eliwood should be doing a lot more than 5-7 damage, since Mani Katti and Rapier pwn cavs, and I don't remember fighters and shamans having 5-6 def (Lyn and Eliwood have 12 base att with Mani Katti/Rapier assuming they're unsupported). In fact, fighters and shamans have a 2 base def, and a 15 and 10 growth, which means they'd have to be level 20 to even be taking 8 damage from Lyn/Eliwood. The only enemies I can see them doing less than 7 damage to are mercs/wyverns/knights.

Canto shouldn't matter since I just checked this site, and chapter 20 is either the one where you recruit Legault which has chokepoints to abuse, or is that one with Ninian which should also have several chokepoints to abuse (you didn't specify the mode), and even then Lyn and Eliwood might actually survive a hit anyway. And not taking counters shouldn't matter either since apparently Astrid is getting the last hit on all the enemies she attacks, since the rest of the team is doing the frontlining for her, so why shouldn't Lyn and Eliwood take last hits?

Since you don't seem to know anything about this map at all, just take my word for it instead of pulling straws to hypothetically counter my arguments when I can make and upload video proof in the span of about 20 minutes (i.e. when I get off my lazy ass and determine that people are actually interested in 0% growth playthrough videos).

You mean a video that would be "ITT: DONDON BEATS A CHAPTER WITH TOP AND HIGH TIERS WHO ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO COVER FOR CRAPPY LYN/ELIWOOD", or do you mean an actual video where we could use any random team and still be able to feed kills to Lyn and Eliwood without slowing us down?

Since you're always just full of shit, I'm going to assume the former.

And I know how to feed kills to shitty units. I just did a mid/low tier playthrough in this game on normal mode and I did lots of feeding in those chapters, and I'll just tell you it took a fuckload more time than just raping everything with my top/high tiers on HARD.

Astrid needs like 31 atk to do 7 damage to the 24 def halberdiers, which is 2 points of strength from base and a Silencer.

She needs 5 levels, and how exactly do you think she's going to get that with her incredible "wow I suck dick man I have like 23 att vs enemies who have 30-40 HP and 15-18 def", especially since the CRKs are so bad that even Geof + Astrid won't be able to kill. We could just give her an energy drop in 3-11, but oh wait, no favoritism is allowed. Have fun leveling her up in CRK chapters without favoring Astrid.

narga, I'm just going to direct you to above post, since you and dondon are basically saying the same crap (Astrid + high tier accomplished what Lyre could have done with a high OR mid tier, thus Astrid > Lyre!).

If you want to continue the argument, we start an official Lyre vs Astrid topic on the debate board. That way something will actually come out of it. We're already wasting a fuckload of time in this debate so time shouldn't be an issue.

[Narga_Rocks]

narga, I'm just going to direct you to above post, since you and dondon are basically saying the same crap (Astrid + high tier accomplished what Lyre could have done with a high OR mid tier, thus Astrid > Lyre!).

No, I'm saying since Lyre can't attack every round and gets countered any time she does more damage, Astrid > Lyre since there will almost always be something for Astrid to kill. The more you try to say she needs a wall, the more often Lyre gets attacked because she can't canto, as well. Thus she grasses even more and did bad damage on enemy phase when someone else could've done more. And she has even less player phase killing.

And if your frontliners are blasting forward but there wasn't enough backliners to clear space, then how many frontliners do you have? And are rhys and mist constantly spamming physics from way in the back? Because if you think you need to wall every turn to protect Astrid, then what about Mist and Rhys going around with heal/mend? And once you have a wall with them, why is Astrid not allowed using it? And you are completely ignoring how much canto helps when most but not all of the enemies are dead. How many enemies do your frontliners leave behind while pressing forward? You know, there is a reason I let high tiers tank. They allow my backliners to kill everything left behind and thus prevent walling. It's fun. You should try it. I can't do it in part 1, but Astrid isn't in part 1 now, is she? If you think Lyre ever needs to combine with a mid tier to kill something, then it is no wonder you leave enemies behind that need to be walled off when your frontliners move on. There should be enough backliners killing stuff that Astrid can't that:

1. Not being countered

2. Not worrying about gauge

are far far more important than Lyre being able to kill a couple more things while doubling.

And remember, if Astrid can be attacked, so can Lyre! Lyre does more grassing, less killing, and then more people need to hang back to kill what attacked Lyre on enemy phase. But Astrid actually has lots of times where she can canto away from enemy ranges without walling being necessary and yet for Lyre to get a kill she might be in enemy range. Which leads back to the second sentence of this paragraph.

I know I've repeated a couple of things, but honestly you haven't yet shown how Lyre manages to avoid this without walling but somehow Astrid who has canto needs walling.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

If you want to continue the argument, we start an official Lyre vs Astrid topic on the debate board. That way something will actually come out of it. We're already wasting a fuckload of time in this debate so time shouldn't be an issue.

[Mekkah]

The debate board doesn't solve anything, since it is judged on the debater, not the units. The only way it would work is if both debaters were equally skilled at defending the units, and even then they have to be 100% adequately judged.

[charmander6000]

I'm late to the party and many things have been said, but there's one double standard that's been bothering me.

Lyre slows down the team because she doesn't ORKO a unit that Ike/Gatire/etc. would have, but Astrid can kill off a weakened unit on player phase.

So apparently only units that can ORKO are on Lyre's team while units that 2RKO can be on Astrid's?

[grandjackal]

Read through the debate, and those that said that Astrid does not need a wall to canto behind...Lemme explain somethin' to ya.

Let's say we have an enemy with 6 move. She has 9. She would be at range 7 outside their attack range. She moves in 6 to attack from range. She cantos back 3 spaces...That or my brain glitched up and she moves in 5, which case she moves back 4, but is still in attack range, and this was best case scenario.

So yeah! She DOES need a wall to canto behind, unless you're implying Astrid is durable, which is certainly not the case. Then, if she gets attacked she's doing jack shit, very more likely she's just dying. Canto does not excuse you for sucking. Doing 1 damn thing every fucking turn, doing it pitifully, then getting killed in return does not make you usable. I'm pretty damn sure that's why Fiona's the worst character in the game.

Starting to think Fiona might actually be better, considering most of her problems can be solved with a forged javelin from a team that's filthy stinking rich while Astrid can't fix her being the weakest person in an army of killfaces even with all the favoritism in the world.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[charmander6000]

A forged javelin with max might and hit and with -3 weight (so Fiona isn't weighed down) would cost over 5000 gold and would still 4RKO most 1-7 enemies and only has on average 78% display hit. Also about half the map ORKO her because they can double her.

The only thing Fiona has is an Earth affinity and innate savior (which can be removed, but no one really wants it until maybe endgame)

[Shadow Mir]

Starting to think Fiona might actually be better, considering most of her problems can be solved with a forged javelin from a team that's filthy stinking rich while Astrid can't fix her being the weakest person in an army of killfaces even with all the favoritism in the world.

First off, a forged javelin would only 4HKO most enemies at about 78% displayed hit on average. But that's ignoring the fact that you can't even forge javelins in part 1.

[Progenitus]

The debate board doesn't solve anything, since it is judged on the debater, not the units. The only way it would work is if both debaters were equally skilled at defending the units, and even then they have to be 100% adequately judged.

Most changes made to the tier list here aren't based on how good the unit is, but rather how good the person defending the unit is.

And the debate board just means that SOMETHING comes out of the whole shitstorm. this tier list is lucky if it has 1 change every 50 posts.

[grandjackal]

OK, I was gonna go with the fact Fiona has resources at her disposal, but apparently the game doesn't even allow that for her. The game truly does hate Fiona...

Also, anyone think Sanaki and Pelleas should switch places?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm late to the party and many things have been said, but there's one double standard that's been bothering me.

Lyre slows down the team because she doesn't ORKO a unit that Ike/Gatire/etc. would have, but Astrid can kill off a weakened unit on player phase.

So apparently only units that can ORKO are on Lyre's team while units that 2RKO can be on Astrid's?

And once again the entire position is completely misunderstood.

Lyre can kill a unit just like Astrid can, but without all your energy drops she gets countered while doing so because she does less damage than Astrid per hit, and without at least one energy drop isn't even finishing off as much as Astrid can without any energy drops. Lyre can't finish units off every turn because she can only attack 6 out of 10 turns if she isn't doing anything on enemy phase. If it is so hard to keep Astrid from needing to be walled in, then how is Lyre not getting attacked on enemy phase if we don't wall her, too? When she is, she no longer has a player phase due to needing to be grassed. Now Lyre is slowing us down because instead of one of Ike/Gatrie/etc crippling 2 or 3 things that enemy phase then moving on further on player phase, the enemies went and attacked Lyre so now 2 or 3 of Ike/Gatrie/etc have to hang back in order to kill what attacked Lyre because our other people aren't always strong enough to finish things off, and Lyre is grassing.

Next, if Astrid has so many 2 range units she isn't able to attack on player phase, what happened to all these 2 range units on enemy phase that should now attack Lyre since we somehow need to wall? So now these enemies have full hps on player phase, when if we positioned our units so that they had to attack Gatrie with a hand axe or something similar with other units they would be closer to dead and we could move faster? So now Lyre is doing nothing but grassing on player phase and not even doing any damage with that enemy phase.

So no, I'm not saying Lyre is on a different team than Astrid. I am perfectly willing to let Lyre kill off weakened units. It is in fact all I've been saying she is actually good for all along. Astrid just does it better, more frequently, and with fewer resources.

Read through the debate, and those that said that Astrid does not need a wall to canto behind...Lemme explain somethin' to ya.

Let's say we have an enemy with 6 move. She has 9. She would be at range 7 outside their attack range. She moves in 6 to attack from range. She cantos back 3 spaces...That or my brain glitched up and she moves in 5, which case she moves back 4, but is still in attack range, and this was best case scenario.

So yeah! She DOES need a wall to canto behind, unless you're implying Astrid is durable, which is certainly not the case. Then, if she gets attacked she's doing jack shit, very more likely she's just dying. Canto does not excuse you for sucking. Doing 1 damn thing every fucking turn, doing it pitifully, then getting killed in return does not make you usable. I'm pretty damn sure that's why Fiona's the worst character in the game.

Starting to think Fiona might actually be better, considering most of her problems can be solved with a forged javelin from a team that's filthy stinking rich while Astrid can't fix her being the weakest person in an army of killfaces even with all the favoritism in the world.

So, do you understand how to draw enemies at all? Astrid is 1 outside the attack range of some guy with 7 move and one range, so she is 9 away from him. Mia/Gatrie/Ike whatever is a few spaces over. On enemy phase, it attacks Ike/Gatrie/Mia whatever and is now, say 5 spaces away from Astrid, and some of his buddies are dead, the rest are nearly dead for our weak team members that aren't Astrid to kill, and everything else that didn't move clearly was not in range of Ike/Gatrie/Mia in the first place, so is more like 12 spaces away from Astrid, or more. Astrid moves in 4 spaces, kills the weakened unit, our other people do the same to other weakened units, and the closest enemy is now 8 spaces or more away. She can move back if that guy can attack her from there because she still has 5 spaces left, and if the closest enemy can't attack she stays put instead of running back. This should happen all the time on every map.

Note now that Lyre doesn't even have that option after killing the weakened enemy because if that fresh enemy 9 spaces away has 7 move and 2 range or 9 move he can attack Lyre but not Astrid (since Astrid still had at least 4 move left). So Lyre gets attacked on enemy phase and now has to grass sooner, giving up her next player phase, and did less damage to that enemy (and no damage at all if it had 2 range) than Ike/Gatrie/Mia would have if not for the fact that Lyre can't canto. And if we didn't dump her full of all 3 energy drops then she got countered when she killed that weakened thing, and got attacked by at least one enemy on enemy phase, and likely got hit at least once and will later need to be healed.

Why is Astrid attacking a fully healed enemy in your example when there should be weakened things at the end of every enemy phase that Astrid and others can attack on player phase? Why is she attacking something far away when there should now be closer things that other people drew closer? Why isn't your other weak units killing the other enemies that were drawn in? How is Astrid ever going to be in range of anything on the following enemy phase if this is done right? Lyre needs more walling than Astrid does because Lyre can't canto and we likely want somebody useful to be countering on enemy phase. If we don't wall Lyre she can't even kill for us on player phase because now she is grassing all the time instead of just half the time.

And Astrid has far more accuracy than Fiona does and won't touch a forged javelin until part 4. While you can forge her an iron lance and later a steel lance in 1-E, Fiona only has 6 move (8-2, first tier and indoors, remember?) in her two part 1 maps and the db can't tank as well as the gms ever. Muarim and BK and Nailah kill stuff, period. Your other units can't take endless waves of enemies like Gatrie/Ike/Mia/Janaff/Ulki can, so your other units can't move in as far and attempting the strategies that work with Astrid might slow you down with Fiona. Since fiona is likely not hitting with a javelin and it does far less damage than Astrid can, she needs to move an extra space in to attack with her forged lance and an extra space out to hide if necessary. Astrid effectively has 5 more move to canto away. In part 3 you are constantly walling with the DB so Fiona can't attack from one range without causing major changes every turn in your strategies because units are moving out of her way so she can attack and then someone else is moving back into the chokehold. Fiona needs 2 people to move on player phase just for her so she can attack and not screw you over in her part 3. Astrid needs 0 people to move differently.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

So without any resources, Astrid > Lyre, except Astrid still blows giant donkey dick and forces you to use top/high tiers to not only protect her, but so they can actually weaken the enemies enough where Astrid can team up and kill an enemy.

This is ignoring the fact that if we aren't using any resources on Astrid or Lyre, they're fucking going SOMEWHERE, aka the rest of the team gets shit, which means now our guys are just one rounding everything with or without astrid's AMAZING potshot, and both Astrid and Lyre are equally useless anyway.

When we actually throw on favoritism, Lyre shitstomps Astrid because Lyre actually somewhat resembles a mid tier unit (with 3 drops she's a Ranulf-lite, with just 2 she can actually 2-round shit on her own), while Astrid still sucks dick at doing anything except potshotting, which got marginally better than what she was originally doing, except she'll force you to use top and high tiers to protect her and weaken for her anyway.

Protip: by saying shit like "well astrid + random godly unit is killing and is making herself useful", you are literally sandbagging the entire purpose of offense. We may as well have Soren = Astrid. SOREN + RANDOM UNIT KILLS THE SAME AS ASTRID + RANDOM UNIT, THUS THEY ARE BOTH EQUALLY USEFUL. NEVERMIND THAT SOREN'S RANDOM UNIT ONLY NEEDS TO BE CAPABLE OF DOING ABOUT 50% OF AN ENEMY'S HP, WHILE ASTRID MUST TEAM UP WITH SOMEONE THAT'S DOING 80-90% OF AN ENEMY'S HP, THEY'RE BOTH HELPING US KILL AN ENEMY.

NO WAIT, I TAKE THAT BACK. ASTRID HAS CANTO SO THAT MEANS WE CAN FEED HER KILLS MORE EASILY WHILE SOREN DOESN'T

THUS ASTRID > SOREN

QED

[-Cynthia-]

2 drops is an awful lot of favoritism IMO, considering there are only like 3 drops on the entire game and everyone who's a little lacking in Str wants one. There's a fine line between giving a unit a certain amount of resources to become usable and just excessive resource consumption.

Edited July 3, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

So without any resources, Astrid > Lyre, except Astrid still blows giant donkey dick and forces you to use top/high tiers to not only protect her, but so they can actually weaken the enemies enough where Astrid can team up and kill an enemy.

This is ignoring the fact that if we aren't using any resources on Astrid or Lyre, they're fucking going SOMEWHERE, aka the rest of the team gets shit, which means now our guys are just one rounding everything with or without astrid's AMAZING potshot, and both Astrid and Lyre are equally useless anyway.

When we actually throw on favoritism, Lyre shitstomps Astrid because Lyre actually somewhat resembles a mid tier unit (with 3 drops she's a Ranulf-lite, with just 2 she can actually 2-round shit on her own), while Astrid still sucks dick at doing anything except potshotting, which got marginally better than what she was originally doing, except she'll force you to use top and high tiers to protect her and weaken for her anyway.

Protip: by saying shit like "well astrid + random godly unit is killing and is making herself useful", you are literally sandbagging the entire purpose of offense. We may as well have Soren = Astrid. SOREN + RANDOM UNIT KILLS THE SAME AS ASTRID + RANDOM UNIT, THUS THEY ARE BOTH EQUALLY USEFUL. NEVERMIND THAT SOREN'S RANDOM UNIT ONLY NEEDS TO BE CAPABLE OF DOING ABOUT 50% OF AN ENEMY'S HP, WHILE ASTRID MUST TEAM UP WITH SOMEONE THAT'S DOING 80-90% OF AN ENEMY'S HP, THEY'RE BOTH HELPING US KILL AN ENEMY.

NO WAIT, I TAKE THAT BACK. ASTRID HAS CANTO SO THAT MEANS WE CAN FEED HER KILLS MORE EASILY WHILE SOREN DOESN'T

THUS ASTRID > SOREN

QED

Um, did I ever say that? And you are completely ignoring Lyre being utterly useless on player phase because she is getting attacked on enemy phase and grassing on player phase. And she is getting attacked by all those 2 range guys you were complaining about Astrid being afraid to attack. So now she is doing no damage on player phase and enemy phase. You keep bringing up this notion of needing to protect her when playing well means you are protecting all of your weaklings in the back by killing everything that would be in range to attack them, not just her. You can't say what you are saying without Lyre being attacked on enemy phase, and only damaging like half of her opposition then grassing every player phase. When you play better, someone who does more damage on a counter and actually counters everything is getting attacked on enemy phase. Favouritism doesn't help much when she attacks 10 enemies per chapter max with those 3 energy drops you gave her, but anyone else could've used those energy drops to attack far more things. Why do we give her all that favouritism when she does less with it than almost any other unit?

And no, Astrid isn't better than all those other people. But like you brought up when you were whining about Astrid stealing kills, we have other units. What I brought up is that we also have other enemies. Maybe Gatrie missed something, or maybe something attacked Haar instead. These other units are better than Astrid because they can kill those things that Astrid can't.

Astrid is better than Lyre because Astrid isn't stealing enemy phase counters from better people, while Lyre is. Astrid is better than Lyre because she isn't needing to be healed ever. Astrid is better than Lyre because she can kill that weakened unit every player phase while Lyre can't. Astrid is better because she has access to better weapons without needing to attack on enemy phase while being less good than our other people (slowing us down). That last sentence by the way means that Lyre needs to be allowed to hold us back on enemy phase just to reach S strike sooner than Astrid can get a silver forge. Astrid is better because she isn't leaving enemies at full hp on enemy phase because something with 2 range attacked her instead of Gatrie or someone else with range. As my previous post shows, Astrid can get away from that enemy 9 squares away since she has 4 move left. Lyre can't.

And by the way, since Ike fails to kill some things while at max strength and ditto with Mia, the energy drops aren't going to them. They still leave cripples for Astrid to kill.

Your whole argument rides on giving Lyre at least 2 energy drops. I think giving her those energy drops is nuts. Plus she is still attacking far far less often with those 2 energy drops than someone else would be. And she still isn't helping us finish stuff on player phase since she keeps getting attacked on enemy phase. And she still isn't helping on enemy phase because someone who does more damage and can attack every enemy could have been doing the counters on enemy phase.

Whether Lyre has those 2 energy drops or not, she still isn't helping. And giving her all 3 doesn't quite work either.

Even if her enemy phase wasn't so useless, she won't be killing stuff on enemy phase, and since she grasses on player phase and can't kill then either, she gets far less experience. So now the only way to boost that speed to keep her doubling is dumping massive amounts of bexp into her with which she won't even get str and other people might have liked that bexp. So she is never getting any stronger than that moment you gave her those energy drops. And if you want to let her kill on player phase, then she is attacking 6 times in an entire map without giving her Reyson favouritism, too. Still not getting much experience since she levels as if she was 20/18 (level 19 laguz) by 3-11 and has a rather low str growth anyway. Is now using those energy drops even less often than if she had enemy phase action. And if she isn't level 19 laguz by then, then she doesn't have 26 speed unless you fed her a speedwing too.

The only way to prevent her bad enemy phases and constantly grassing player phases is to wall her in. Something you were complaining about with Astrid but if you play better then Astrid needs it much less often than Lyre does.

How is Lyre doing anything better than Astrid? Astrid is better with nothing than Lyre is with all the energy drops and most of our bexp (needs it to keep her spd up).

When Astrid with no favouritism > Lyre with lots of favouritism, Lyre clearly has issues.

[dondon151]

No, that is definitely what you are implying.

Astrid MUST attack with a high tier if she wants to kill an enemy off, even if we threw multiple energy drops on her, while we could just have Lyre with even less energy drops than Astrid got attack with like a fucking mid tier to still kill it because she just flat out wins damage.

X unit with inferior offense to Y unit must be attacking with A unit to kill an enemy off, while Y unit could have attacked with A unit or B unit or C unit or D unit to kill it. This is why Y unit wins offense. That's how offense lead works. That's why we actually give a shit that someone like Neph outdamages someone like Boyd since she doubles and he doesn't. We don't say "oh well Boyd + high tier can kill an enemy off, so we don't care if Neph + mid tier could do the same job, Boyd's making himself useful!". It's not "oh well if you don't one round, fuck you your offense doesn't matter"

No, you fucking neanderthalic dipshit with a lentil-sized cerebrum, I said that as long as you have the means to favoritise a unit, then you can favoritise a unit, not that all units that need favoritism are necessarily equal.

Astrid requires that you at LEAST make a wall for her to canto back behind, which isn't always convenient (what if your frontliners want to blast ahead and make a scattered formation? I sometimes do that, since, you know, I want to beat the chapter, not dick around so I can feed kills to Astrid).

Astrid moving back 3-5 spaces after attacking from 2 range is not putting her in any danger, particularly if the rest of the team is also advancing.

And people only care about Ranulf's transformation problems to the extent that he's only in upper mid tier. He's still a very good unit. The gauge only hurts you so much.

But Lyre's not upper mid potential and the gauge hurts her quite a bit more than Ranulf.

Favoritism takes place almost exclusively on player phase, which is difficult for Lyre if she has to sacrifice player phases.

I said FE7 enemies in general are a joke (that means almost all of them, dipshit. shows how much YOU know), at least a far bigger joke than FE10 enemies. FE7 soldiers are just beyond being a joke. If you cared to even read my sentence, I said "especially" soldiers, you fucking retard.

This does not in any way counter my point that Eliwood and Lyn are in the same position as Astrid, namely finishing off enemies by doing 5-7 damage.

If the enemies are "cavaliers, fighters, shamans", Lyn and Eliwood should be doing a lot more than 5-7 damage, since Mani Katti and Rapier pwn cavs, and I don't remember fighters and shamans having 5-6 def (Lyn and Eliwood have 12 base att with Mani Katti/Rapier assuming they're unsupported). In fact, fighters and shamans have a 2 base def, and a 15 and 10 growth, which means they'd have to be level 20 to even be taking 8 damage from Lyn/Eliwood. The only enemies I can see them doing less than 7 damage to are mercs/wyverns/knights.

Mani Katti and Rapier need to be conserved for when they're effective. Iron Sword Lyn does 6-7 damage on a 3-4 def shaman, same for fighters. Against armors, Mani Katti Lyn does 6 damage and Rapier Eliwood does 5 damage. Against 8 def lance cavs, Eliwood does 10 damage with Rapier. This is very similar to Astrid with higher level bows against enemies in 3-11 that have 18 def.

Canto shouldn't matter since I just checked this site, and chapter 20 is either the one where you recruit Legault which has chokepoints to abuse, or is that one with Ninian which should also have several chokepoints to abuse (you didn't specify the mode), and even then Lyn and Eliwood might actually survive a hit anyway. And not taking counters shouldn't matter either since apparently Astrid is getting the last hit on all the enemies she attacks, since the rest of the team is doing the frontlining for her, so why shouldn't Lyn and Eliwood take last hits?

Ranged enemies. Also, if there are residual enemies, Astrid is safe but Lyn and Eliwood are not.

You mean a video that would be "ITT: DONDON BEATS A CHAPTER WITH TOP AND HIGH TIERS WHO ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO COVER FOR CRAPPY LYN/ELIWOOD", or do you mean an actual video where we could use any random team and still be able to feed kills to Lyn and Eliwood without slowing us down?

Everyone has base stats wow are you lacking in reading comprehension or what did you actually think this chapter would be easy even with top tiers

She needs 5 levels, and how exactly do you think she's going to get that with her incredible "wow I suck dick man I have like 23 att vs enemies who have 30-40 HP and 15-18 def", especially since the CRKs are so bad that even Geof + Astrid won't be able to kill. We could just give her an energy drop in 3-11, but oh wait, no favoritism is allowed. Have fun leveling her up in CRK chapters without favoring Astrid.

Have fun leveling her up in GM chapters without favoring Lyre.

There's Paragon, not to mention that those 24 def halberdiers are some of the most durable units on the map. Warriors and SMs have 18 def, sages even lower.

narga, I'm just going to direct you to above post, since you and dondon are basically saying the same crap (Astrid + high tier accomplished what Lyre could have done with a high OR mid tier, thus Astrid > Lyre!).

Lyre requires Energy Drops, shielding, and Olivi Grass while Astrid needs Energy Drops and better bows.

By the way giving excessive favoritism to Lyre just to make her better than Astrid can be seen as overall negative utility which might be worse in the long run for Lyre's case than just not giving her any crap.

Edited July 3, 2009 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

No, you fucking neanderthalic dipshit with a lentil-sized cerebrum, I said that as long as you have the means to favoritise a unit, then you can favoritise a unit, not that all units that need favoritism are necessarily equal.

Astrid moving back 3-5 spaces after attacking from 2 range is not putting her in any danger, particularly if the rest of the team is also advancing.

But Lyre's not upper mid potential and the gauge hurts her quite a bit more than Ranulf.

Favoritism takes place almost exclusively on player phase, which is difficult for Lyre if she has to sacrifice player phases.

This does not in any way counter my point that Eliwood and Lyn are in the same position as Astrid, namely finishing off enemies by doing 5-7 damage.

Mani Katti and Rapier need to be conserved for when they're effective. Iron Sword Lyn does 6-7 damage on a 3-4 def shaman, same for fighters. Against armors, Mani Katti Lyn does 6 damage and Rapier Eliwood does 5 damage. Against 8 def lance cavs, Eliwood does 10 damage with Rapier. This is very similar to Astrid with higher level bows against enemies in 3-11 that have 18 def.

Ranged enemies. Also, if there are residual enemies, Astrid is safe but Lyn and Eliwood are not.

Everyone has base stats wow are you lacking in reading comprehension or what did you actually think this chapter would be easy even with top tiers

Have fun leveling her up in GM chapters without favoring Lyre.

There's Paragon, not to mention that those 24 def halberdiers are some of the most durable units on the map. Warriors and SMs have 18 def, sages even lower.

Lyre requires Energy Drops, shielding, and Olivi Grass while Astrid needs Energy Drops and better bows.

By the way giving excessive favoritism to Lyre just to make her better than Astrid can be seen as overall negative utility which might be worse in the long run for Lyre's case than just not giving her any crap.

You do realize smash will hold to his position until the end of time and continue to ignore various parts of reality when they severely damage his case, right?

I'm mostly countering smash's points to try to convince the other people that Lyre is worse than Astrid. Now, the fact that people keep twisting my position into ways that make them feel Lyre can actually be more useful than Astrid I guess just shows that there are more people like smash than people who read and think and interpret.

[Progenitus]

2 drops is an awful lot of favoritism

These are bottom tiers, what did you expect? Did you think lyre would become Ulki #2 after just one energy drop or something?

The difference between Lyre and Astrid is that Lyre actually somewhat resembles a regular unit after given favoritism. Astrid is literally useless unless you dump everything you have on her.

narga, your entire argument revolves around fielding fucking top and high tier units so that astrid can kill shit.

Guess what? If they're not one rounding (if they were then Astrid has nothing to attack anyway), what's the difference between letting Lyre counter and letting someone like Gatrie counter? Clearly as long as Lyre does SOME damage, the enemies she attacks will be weakened enough to let other units kill.

"but omg lyre needs energy drops", well guess what this is bottom tier, did you expect Lyre to be soloing maps at base level?

and i'm just going to ignore dondon. Not like the dipshit ever says anything intelligent.

btw

And no, Astrid isn't better than all those other people.

By your own logic, yes she is.

Astrid + uber unit kills an enemy. It doesn't matter if Lyre could have killed it with a mid tier unit, Astrid is better because she has canto!

Astrid + uber unit kills an enemy. It doesn't matter if Soren/Boyd/whatever could have killed it with a mid tier unit, Astrid is better because she has canto!

Edited July 3, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

...*Sigh*.

Gatrie > Hawks anyone? With the crown taken into consideration, he's doubling sometimes. Like most of the GMs that don't double he's usually 2RKOing and there are ways to accomodate it (I'm talking about Horseslayer, Brave Lance, Brave Axe if Jill tagsalong, Hammer-time, etc). Durability is pretty good, though slighly overkill in some aspects. I'd say that the competition for Celerity for him is a bit low since the only "logical" unit that I would think can use it is Haar. Paladins have problems in some of the maps. Also, Gatrie easily plugs holes and risks little as far as taking damage.

Only thing that apparently stands out is perhaps endgame where Gatrie's Spd cap might screw around with him, but at least there's Brave weapons to accomodate it at times, the Hammer is a possibility, Wyrmslayer in 4-E-3 if we bothered raising his Sword level. Speaking of that, he can use all 3 Brave weapons since IIRC Brave Sword is C Ranked.

I guess it'd be his inability to double the Auras without a Brave weapon might be the reason to keep him under the Hawks, but the Hawks also have to compete with Gatrie's chapter lead in general.

[dondon151]

and i'm just going to ignore dondon. Not like the dipshit ever says anything intelligent.

I assume then that you concede all of my points. All right.

I don't think you ever understood what I was trying to convey. I was postulating that it's not that difficult to favoritise Astrid in comparison to Lyre, at least not to the point that you were exaggerating. Lyre has shit like nearly identical base strength to Astrid and being locked to 8 mt cat claws while Astrid doesn't need Energy Drops to make up for her atk. She can make up 8 atk alone with higher end bows, equivalent to 2 Energy Drops on Lyre that have a shitload more competition than those higher end bows, some of which are purchasable.

Furthermore, Lyre always risks counter attacks and enemy phase exposure which in turn limits her player phase exposure and inhibits favoritism, since you can't attack and grass at the same time.

I'm still going to entitle you with a response no matter how much your temper flares and the name-calling and all capsing start, so I expect something more than "o lol ur an idiot b/c i say so i'm not going to answer" in response when I can easily do the same with equal amount of nonjustification.

Edited July 3, 2009 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

...*Sigh*.

Gatrie > Hawks anyone? With the crown taken into consideration, he's doubling sometimes. Like most of the GMs that don't double he's usually 2RKOing and there are ways to accomodate it (I'm talking about Horseslayer, Brave Lance, Brave Axe if Jill tagsalong, Hammer-time, etc). Durability is pretty good, though slighly overkill in some aspects. I'd say that the competition for Celerity for him is a bit low since the only "logical" unit that I would think can use it is Haar. Paladins have problems in some of the maps. Also, Gatrie easily plugs holes and risks little as far as taking damage.

Only thing that apparently stands out is perhaps endgame where Gatrie's Spd cap might screw around with him, but at least there's Brave weapons to accomodate it at times, the Hammer is a possibility, Wyrmslayer in 4-E-3 if we bothered raising his Sword level. Speaking of that, he can use all 3 Brave weapons since IIRC Brave Sword is C Ranked.

I guess it'd be his inability to double the Auras without a Brave weapon might be the reason to keep him under the Hawks, but the Hawks also have to compete with Gatrie's chapter lead in general.

+3 Mov, flight, and Canto are the big advantages the Hawks have over Gatrie, plus better offense if Gatrie isn't crowned and Gatrie's defensive leads are pretty much overkill, except against bows. On your Celerity point, we're probably getting more use out of it if we put it on Reyson. Basically, the hawks are beating Gatrie whenever they're around, but Gatrie does have ~4 chapters of usefulness before they arrive (not 3-P and 3-4 is kinda iffy), so Gatrie above them isn't a huge stretch.

[Colonel M]

Reyson isn't particularly needing it. IIRC he's available for a few chapters in P3, so even if Reyson was using it Gatrie would still have time to use it beforehand.

Besides, one that would use Reyson should simply throw a Laguz Stone on him and auto-obtain +2 Mov, that is if I'm remembering this right. Lately with all the mistakes I've made I want to shoot my foot.

[Vykan12]

Celerity's use is pretty much optimized on your very best units. Getting Ike more enemy phase exposure than normal in part 4 is pretty hax, for instance. Putting it on Reyson faciliates quad vigoring and allows him to stay out of reach of enemies easier, not to mention just keeping up in general. Putting celerity on Haar is a wet dream for the desert, etc.

For that matter, celerity is one of those skills everyone wants pretty badly since it's advantageous in any situation (more move > less). If we looked at celerity Janaff vs celerity Gatrie, not much would really change in comparison.

[Narga_Rocks]

These are bottom tiers, what did you expect? Did you think lyre would become Ulki #2 after just one energy drop or something?

The difference between Lyre and Astrid is that Lyre actually somewhat resembles a regular unit after given favoritism. Astrid is literally useless unless you dump everything you have on her.

narga, your entire argument revolves around fielding fucking top and high tier units so that astrid can kill shit.

Guess what? If they're not one rounding (if they were then Astrid has nothing to attack anyway), what's the difference between letting Lyre counter and letting someone like Gatrie counter? Clearly as long as Lyre does SOME damage, the enemies she attacks will be weakened enough to let other units kill.

"but omg lyre needs energy drops", well guess what this is bottom tier, did you expect Lyre to be soloing maps at base level?

Yippee. A "regular" unit that only attacks 6 out of 10 player phases. Or if we let her get attacked on enemy phase, she averages 3 enemies over the course of the map, less really because she isn't transformed at the beginning without a stone. Add to this how you yet again ignored 2 range enemies that will pretty much take priority in attacking units like Lyre that can't counter, so now she does no damage to that enemy when just about any other unit I stuck in the way could've done some damage. Even a wind edge or a crossbow user would've done better. So since on many maps ranged units are at least more than a third of the enemies, she is basically looking at damaging 2 out of 3 on enemy phase, and not even enough for some units to kill without taking a counter (Neph, Oscar if he doubles, others). You again ignore how Astrid never needs healing, how is that not helpful? And before anyone suggests she can take more than 3 on enemy phase, unless you constantly keep her gauge above 21, 4 enemies means she untransforms on player phase (21 -4-4-4-4-5 = 0). And if she ever does take 4 on one turn, then even if she started at 30: 30-4-4-4-4-5=9. grassing makes 24, repeat makes 3, grassing makes 18 and so after being attacked by 4 twice, she is stuck at 3 or 2 for the rest of the map.

And now she can't even do anything but grass on player phase ever. Which means she can't help us kill stuff nearby which means we go slower because there are 2 enemies that need at least a mid tier to finish it off, that mid tier might get countered, and there is one enemy that is at full health that needs even more. And there are other enemies that other tanks drew because we didn't want Lyre to untransform. And if we are suddenly not allowed using Ike and Mia or other high tiers, then the enemies that that thing drew need stronger people to kill too. So we are going far slower with Lyre than we were with Astrid.

And let's not forget that giving those energy drops to Lyre means the DB went like 8 chapters with it sitting in their inventory, there were two energy drops sitting in the gm's inventory in 3-2 and 3-3, Lyre took a vacation in 3-5 so there are basically 14 chapters that could've had an energy drop helping but didn't. And we could've used the 2-E one during part of 2-E to help with the generals or something else if we wanted.

Then Lyre comes along and uses those energy drops on 6 out of 10 player phases and no enemy phases. Or she comes alone and uses them on an average of 2 (3-1, the ranged guy) enemies per enemy phase and doesn't help us kill things at all on player phase. And even with those 3 energy drops, she still does less damage to those 2 guys then just about anyone else would without the energy drops, forget what they could do with. And that person could then bring those energy drops to use on player phase and enemy phase. The idea of giving her those energy drops is so insane that if it wasn't for the fact that your entire case hinges on giving them to her I'd be surprised you haven't given it up yet.

btw

By your own logic, yes she is.

Astrid + uber unit kills an enemy. It doesn't matter if Lyre could have killed it with a mid tier unit, Astrid is better because she has canto!

Astrid + uber unit kills an enemy. It doesn't matter if Soren/Boyd/whatever could have killed it with a mid tier unit, Astrid is better because she has canto!

So apparently I'm not even allowed using Ike now? Think about it, he's going to attack something. Anyone can kill it, but since we suddenly aren't allowed using other high/top tiers, there are other tanks that drew other units that have way more hps. You know, you complained earlier about Astrid stealing kills from other fighters doing nothing. Don't you think those guys that are stronger than Astrid should kill those things? There are only going to be 1 or 2 enemies Astrid is capable of killing each turn, so she is clearly not better than those guys because they can kill whatever. But Astrid is necessary to kill the weak ones because the other guys are busy, and our tanks are trying to move forward, not kill stuff that the rearguard should be taking out.

If Lyre could have killed it with a mid tier unit, then that means that Lyre is not tanking, because she can't tank and do stuff on player phase. So now we have to wall her in so she isn't attacked by stuff on enemy phase. Remember earlier how player phase and enemy phase were mutually exclusive? So because canto means Astrid doesn't need a wall, and Lyre does need a wall, doesn't that make Astrid better? Plus, Lyre could have only killed it with a mid tier unit on 6 out of 10 turns on the map. There should always be something for Astrid to kill. Astrid kills 9 out of 10 turns, Lyre does 6 out of 10. Astrid wins.

If Lyre is tanking instead, then she is worthless to us on player phase. If we let a proper tank, tank, then Lyre could've killed one thing that unit attacked and other low tiers could've killed other things. If we aren't allowed multiple tops and highs, then who's to say we are allowed so many mids? These other lower tier people clearly aren't killing stuff Lyre weakened because she ate all the energy drops and now they aren't strong enough. But if we let a proper tank tank, then these things can kill stuff it weakened, especially since they can even have energy drops if Lyre wasn't such a glutton.

And remember, all those other people you mentioned can have some player phase and enemy phase action since they don't care about gauge. Soren only gets one on enemy phase, but it is still more than Lyre gets. And they are better than Astrid because they can at least clean out stronger things than Astrid.

And apparently having one less unit to heal suddenly means nothing to you, when zihark or another unit dodging in some other map causing one less heal a few times means the world to you. So why does Astrid not needing healing ever and Lyre needing healing not give Astrid an edge?

Mostly this revolves around Astrid helping every single turn and Lyre not helping every single turn. Astrid needs no walling to be able to help, but Lyre needs walling or she gives up all her player phases. Astrid never needing healed, Lyre needing healed. There are so many things Astrid does better with no energy drops and Lyre can't even fix any of these fundamental problems even with energy drops. And since she is a complete and total waste to give those energy drops because of what we give up, she shouldn't get them in the first place. She accumulates so much negative with the energy drops and gives us nothing in return.

Astrid is there for what we need her to do. Lyre isn't always there for what we want of her. Conclusion is obvious.

[Colonel M]

Celerity's use is pretty much optimized on your very best units. Getting Ike more enemy phase exposure than normal in part 4 is pretty hax, for instance. Putting it on Reyson faciliates quad vigoring and allows him to stay out of reach of enemies easier, not to mention just keeping up in general. Putting celerity on Haar is a wet dream for the desert, etc.

Keep in mind this is Part 4 and not Part 3, when it is first available (assuming Ilyana shipped it over). Someone like Ike would rather have Paragon to boost his levels and he lacks room for both Celerity + Paragon.

Dunno how many Thunder Sages there are in Part 4, though Nullify could be taking the space at that time. Dunno if it would ever be considered either, but Savior Haar would be nice in the Desert Chapter when someone takes a dirtnap sandnap (someone other than Haar obviously) since this means that one unit is guaranteed from being taken down in combat.

Part 4 also tosses us the Boots obtained by the DB, so the possibility of having +2 Mov is increased with this, though slightly negated by the number of units that can make use of it.

For that matter, celerity is one of those skills everyone wants pretty badly since it's advantageous in any situation (more move > less). If we looked at celerity Janaff vs celerity Gatrie, not much would really change in comparison.

Two things: first off, Gatrie has the possibility of Celerity ever since 3-2 in comparison to Janaff's 3-8 I believe.

Another thing to consider for Celerity Gatrie is that he makes better use of it in comparison to everyone elsee due to his durability. While I'm not attempting to undermine the GM's durability, it's clear to see how Gatrie has the best durability. He "usually" can face more Enemy Phase exposure than most of his pals thanks to that durability standing out. I understand that Gatrie isn't guaranteed Celerity, but in response to it he does make very good use of it in comparison to most of the units that surround him.

Besides, my argument doesn't totally hinge on the Celerity thing. If anything, it'd be Gatrie's Crowning having a good chance of happening and simply having more availability.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Mekkah]

If we looked at celerity Janaff vs celerity Gatrie, not much would really change in comparison.

If anything it's in Janaff's favor, since Canto allows him to use that full move pretty much all the time in any clever way he wants.