OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

If anything it's in Janaff's favor, since Canto allows him to use that full move pretty much all the time in any clever way he wants.

I don't agree. Making full use of a resource does not necessarily mean that you are using it better. Janaff with 11 MV is Janaff off by himself, because nobody keep up with him for more than a turn. He and/or Ulki are already able to fly ahead of the main force, I don't see what extra advantage this lends the army at all. If Janaff gets somewhere 1 turn sooner than he ordinarily would, what does this give us?

On the other hand, Gatrie with Celerity is able to keep up with your 7MV units now (with up to one obstacle in the way, like a ledge or thicket), and this is where the majority of your strength is. Your entire line can move more rapidly now, since you don't have to choose between putting your brick wall on the front lines, or using everyone's mobility efficiently.

[charmander6000]

Hate to go back to Astrid/Lyre, but isn't enemy phase offense > player phase offense? So what if Lyre doesn't get to attack every player phase, its better than Astrid not attacking during enemy phase.

[Interceptor]

Hate to go back to Astrid/Lyre, but isn't enemy phase offense > player phase offense? So what if Lyre doesn't get to attack every player phase, its better than Astrid not attacking during enemy phase.

Enemy Phase offense only counts if you don't suck at it. If you deal crappy damage (or no damage), you're hurting the team's damage output by taking hits on Enemy Phase, because you are leaving more shit alive for Player Phase to deal with.

This is why what Astrid does is, strangely enough, better than what Lyre does. This is also why Shinon is over-rated.

[Narga_Rocks]

Enemy Phase offense only counts if you don't suck at it. If you deal crappy damage (or no damage), you're hurting the team's damage output by taking hits on Enemy Phase, because you are leaving more shit alive for Player Phase to deal with.

This is why what Astrid does is, strangely enough, better than what Lyre does. This is also why Shinon is over-rated.

And it's not like it's Astrid's fault that this is how the game works.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

Janaff with 11 MV is Janaff off by himself, because nobody keep up with him for more than a turn. He and/or Ulki are already able to fly ahead of the main force, I don't see what extra advantage this lends the army at all.

They can kill more enemies before your group can keep up, they can avoid bow threats easier, they can ferry units farther, set up for vigors with greater flexibility, etc.

[Colonel M]

They can kill more enemies before your group can keep up, they can avoid bow threats easier, they can ferry units farther, set up for vigors with greater flexibility, etc.

This, however, pends on how much movement you use.

Like Interceptor pointed out, at least Celerity Gatrie is keeping up with the team better. Giving it to someone like Janaff is slightly overkill.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Colonel M

[charmander6000]

Enemy Phase offense only counts if you don't suck at it. If you deal crappy damage (or no damage), you're hurting the team's damage output by taking hits on Enemy Phase, because you are leaving more shit alive for Player Phase to deal with.

This is why what Astrid does is, strangely enough, better than what Lyre does. This is also why Shinon is over-rated.

I understand what you mean, but most things don't ORKO so most of the time there will be enemies alive on player phase. Still with the amount of damage Lyre is doing the enemy might as well could have attacked at two range against a one range unit.

Edited July 4, 2009 by charmander6000

[Interceptor]

I understand what you mean, but most things don't ORKO so most of the time there will be enemies alive on player phase. Still with the amount of damage Lyre is doing the enemy might as well could have attacked at two range against a one range unit.

If you understand what I mean, then there is no "but". It's not necessary to ORKO -- few GMs are capable of it consistently -- it's sufficient even if you only make the enemies easier to kill.

Consider the case of Boyd, a unit who has a small chance to ORKO at baseline, but is 2RKO without much effort at all. There are plenty of people who can finish off an enemy that Boyd failed to ORKO, including himself. His Enemy Phase activity is altogether decent, particularly once you can forge Hand Axes.

Not so much with Lyre, though: no prospects of countering at 2-range, and really bad damage at 1-range, such that a unit that 2RKO's could likely be unable to finish off the things that attacked her. If I have to use TWO units to finsih off things that Lyre wounded, or failed to damage, that's a lot more troublsome.

[Narga_Rocks]

Not so much with Lyre, though: no prospects of countering at 2-range, and really bad damage at 1-range, such that a unit that 2RKO's could likely be unable to finish off the things that attacked her. If I have to use TWO units to finsih off things that Lyre wounded, or failed to damage, that's a lot more troublsome.

Yeah, but smash is bound to bring up those energy drops again. As if it ever could fix her bigger issues, or isn't a waste of energy drops in the first place.

[Shadow Mir]

Enemy Phase offense only counts if you don't suck at it. If you deal crappy damage (or no damage), you're hurting the team's damage output by taking hits on Enemy Phase, because you are leaving more shit alive for Player Phase to deal with.

This is why what Astrid does is, strangely enough, better than what Lyre does. This is also why Shinon is over-rated.

I can see where you're coming from with this.

If you understand what I mean, then there is no "but". It's not necessary to ORKO -- few GMs are capable of it consistently -- it's sufficient even if you only make the enemies easier to kill.

Consider the case of Boyd, a unit who has a small chance to ORKO at baseline, but is 2RKO without much effort at all. There are plenty of people who can finish off an enemy that Boyd failed to ORKO, including himself. His Enemy Phase activity is altogether decent, particularly once you can forge Hand Axes.

Not so much with Lyre, though: no prospects of countering at 2-range, and really bad damage at 1-range, such that a unit that 2RKO's could likely be unable to finish off the things that attacked her. If I have to use TWO units to finsih off things that Lyre wounded, or failed to damage, that's a lot more troublsome.

I have to agree here as well.

[Narga_Rocks]

Wow, this topic seems rather dead. Hope I didn't kill it. And Rage Fox hasn't even posted in a while, which is kinda surprising given her defence of Astrid earlier on. Anyway, since it has been over 18 hours since the last post in this topic, and it's a shame since this topic usually involves the most in depth character discussion on the Radiant Dawn forum, here's my attempt at kicking the wheels of controversy into motion once again.

High (11)

Leanne

Sothe

Titania

Zihark

Nolan

Nailah

Rafiel

Janaff

Ulki

Gatrie

Mia

Shinon

What are Titania, Zihark, and Nolan doing to get them above Rafiel that Janaff, Ulki, Gatrie, and Mia aren't?

Since it is rather difficult to argue anyone against Rafiel since he's a heron, my only choice is to assume that T, Z, and N are in fact worthy of being better than Rafiel, and simply ask what they are doing to get above Rafiel that the other 4 aren't. While I could try to bring up points in Gatrie's or Mia's favour in the hopes that it would be enough to bring them above Rafiel, it is highly likely that I might bring up already conceded points or something people feel isn't as strong as their reasons for having T, Z, and N above Rafiel, and thus have typed paragraphs that don't help at all.

Hence, my only choice is to ask what those 3 do so well that they get to be above Rafiel, but Gatrie and Mia and the hawks are lacking. Maybe then I can try to defend the position that at least one of the 4 should be above Rafiel.

If nothing else, I hope at least that some people will post something so that this topic again sees fun "discussions".

[-Cynthia-]

Well, Zihark is better than Nolan at any rate. Much better Part 1, even when we consider Nolan's chapters before Zihark arrives, a little worse Part 3, and then Zihark beats him again in Part 4.

Not as sure about Titania though. The hawks have flight and doubling over Titania and Mia has better offense.

Perhaps the problem lies with Rafiel being too high? He only has 4 pre- Endgame chapters (and he's inferior to Reyson in 4-E so he's not going). He's not especially useful in 1-8 and has some durability issues in his Part 4 chapters due to high enemy mobility+ fog in 4-1 and high enemy numbers in 4-4. I could see him drop all the way below Shinon honestly.

[NinjaMonkey]

I fail to see why Sothe>Titania. Sure, he's good for Part one. I'll admit that. As soon as 3-6 rolls around though, he becomes mediocre (at best) compared to any other unit that might be being used . When Part four arrives, he's virtually useless, due to both his very late promotion, Bane being possibly the worst mastery skill in the entire game, and the fact that if he gets hit, he loses about half his HP. It would be OK if I could bench him, but of course he's forced on every Micaiah chapter.

Titania however, is good for all of part three and most of part four (except the last four-or-so chapters), even though her defenses aren't terribly good.

Edited July 5, 2009 by NinjaMonkey

[-Cynthia-]

I fail to see why Sothe>Titania. Sure, he's good for Part one. I'll admit that. As soon as 3-6 rolls around though, he becomes mediocre (at best) compared to any other unit that might be being used . When Part four arrives, he's virtually useless, due to both his very late promotion, Bane being possibly the worst mastery skill in the entire game, and the fact that if he gets hit, he loses about half his HP. It would be OK if I could bench him, but of course he's forced on every Micaiah chapter.

Titania however, is good for all of part three and most of part four (except the last four-or-so chapters), even though her defenses aren't terribly good.

Sothe generally is better in comprison to the DB than Titania is to the GMs.

Sothe is your best unit from 1-2 to 1-4. Then he becomes about on par with Zihark/Volug and only loses to Taur/Muarim/Nailah/BK at different times near the end of Part 1. Sothe still has his uses Part 3, for the most part he's 2HKOd just like everyone else, and is pretty bad Part 4 (although item finding in 4-3 is handy).

Meanwhile, Titania is outclassed by Ike and Haar in her Part 3 chapters and is on par wth Ulki/Janaff/Shinon/Mia/Gatrie. Yes, Titania's Part 4 is better, but she isn't fantastic anymore, especially when you consider she takes up a slot in 4-E and Sothe doesn't, which cuts into her lead.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

You also gotta keep in mind how unfriendly part 4 is to paladins...

[Shadow Mir]

Wow, this topic seems rather dead. Hope I didn't kill it. And Rage Fox hasn't even posted in a while, which is kinda surprising given her defence of Astrid earlier on.

I've heard that Red Fox has limited internet for the next couple days, so...

At any rate, I think Rafiel is overrated.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[charmander6000]

I think Leanne is overrated. She's the worst heron for endgame and even in some chapters she's doesn't improve the completion time by a lot (2-P, 3-11 and maybe 4-3) also her move is terrible, especially in chapters where using your full move is better (4-3).

I'd take both Sothe and Titania over Leanne at least.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think Leanne is overrated. She's the worst heron for endgame and even in some chapters she's doesn't improve the completion time by a lot (2-P, 3-11 and maybe 4-3) also her move is terrible, especially in chapters where using your full move is better (4-3).

I'd take both Sothe and Titania over Leanne at least.

Completion time is irrelevant in 2-P. Making another two units in 2-P better in part 2 is what's important. By having Leanne vigor, Marcia is actually usable, which increases her experience. Marcia can get one level with the boss kill + other kills, and can even get half way to another. Now, it takes killing most of the units in the chapter with Marcia, but she can't do that without Leanne. Haar could take stuff without Leanne, but he isn't coming close to leveling anyway and 40 extra exp isn't improving his part 2 performance much. A stronger Marcia means a faster Marcia which does better in 2-3 and 2-E, making her more helpful in those chapters and it is easier to get her levels to help in 3-9 (she'll actually double more things in that chapter). Leanne makes the rest of part 2 and 3-9 easier with her presence in 2-P alone. Plus with Marcia attacking more, Elincia needs to heal more. Getting Elincia exp. She gets much more staff experience in 2-P because we are now using Marcia, and Leanne lets Elincia heal twice in a round if it is needed to heal Marcia. Which will improve her level in 4-2 and make it faster to get Elincia up and running in 4-2. Leanne's 2-P alone helps in 4 other chapters. And since Marcia is now a higher level in 3-11 (due to being better in all maps thanks to Leanne), maybe she will actually be usable afterwards, and it will make Elincia easier to use after 4-2 as well. This can expand Leanne's 2-P benefit to even more chapters. (This argument might be a little thin, but it is the best I can come up with for 2-P)

3-11 she needs to be held back from the Onager's and while we can let her take one direct hit or two indirect hits, we basically have to heal her any time she does get hit if we want to move her forward before we can take out the sniper. However, since Tanith and Sigrun are forced anyway and are not great at combat, Leanne can still vigor some units then be picked up and then take/dropped so she doesn't miss a turn and is beyond range of the Onager's. She can make it easier for your strong units to kill stuff on player phase and then move forward on the same turn (those without canto benefit most from this) and generally speed up completion. Your units can go in and kill those Onager users faster, Ike and Gatrie or Haar or someone can kill a sniper then move into a chokepoint and tank on the same turn (killing lots of kamikaze idiot enemies), etc.

In 4-3 she can speed up quite a few things on various turns. While you could bring 10 units to 4-3 and have them all go in and kill stuff on player phase that was weakened by a tank, it seems much more practical to limit the number of units getting kills as much as possible to those that are going to endgame (ie: stronger endgame team than otherwise). Without going over the 12 turn bexp limit, it seems this is only possible to do by giving some units 2 kills in one player phase, something only Leanne can do. On other turns she can speed up the gathering of the 5 items in the desert, eg Sothe gets one item, Sigrun/Tanith rescue then take/drop him near another item, Leanne vigors him (and a unit that wants kills) and he gets another item. While this is taking up a few units, it isn't like we want them attacking much anyway unless you are bringing them to endgame (in which case, use non-endgame flyers). Again she makes your endgame team stronger. While you could take all your endgame team members and send them to the other two parts of part 4 and then you don't care who kills what in 4-3, you are still lowering your average level entering 4-E because there are more units vying for the same number of kills in the other two parts of part 4. And it isn't like she is ever in danger of dying once you kill the ranged tome user near the white gem, which she helps kill anyway because it is easier for a flyer to get down there and kill it and move back without ever being attacked by more than it can take. The enemy movement is so slow and there are only 2 sages and 4 dragonmasters that move well, and we can plan ahead for them easily. Plus when Micaiah dances around attack ranges to get to Stefan and a flyer or two goes with, the boss can be killed from behind much before the rest of the enemies and then Leanne can even move in closer to the remaining enemies for more vigor help.

I don't know how this measures up against Titania or Sothe in other peoples minds, but I'm mostly trying to point out that improving the completion time in 2-P and 4-3 is unnecessary for being extremely helpful, and in 3-11 she does potentially speed up completion time.

As I said before, it is hard to compare what other units do to what a heron can do, but she does help a lot every chapter in which she appears, even if sometimes it takes a few chapters to see how much she helped out in the long run.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

I've always believed the worth of dancer units to be overvalued (moreso in some games than in others), but I don't want to get into this argument because it probably involves me getting pummeled by some debating heavyweights around here.

[Narga_Rocks]

I've always believed the worth of dancer units to be overvalued (moreso in some games than in others), but I don't want to get into this argument because it probably involves me getting pummeled by some debating heavyweights around here.

It all depends on how you use them. You can do some pretty crazy things with them that you can't do without.

[-Cynthia-]

I've always believed the worth of dancer units to be overvalued (moreso in some games than in others), but I don't want to get into this argument because it probably involves me getting pummeled by some debating heavyweights around here.

Herons are better than dancers of other games though, since they can refresh multiple units.

[Narga_Rocks]

Herons are better than dancers of other games though, since they can refresh multiple units.

And some have canto. And Reyson usually has a pretty big movement range leftover after vigor with one of boots/celerity (both is likely overkill, though).

Crazy things example: Opens up lots of possibilities for thieving. Can you guess how many sleep and silence staves and long range tomes I picked up during PoR HM? (knight ring sometimes helpful.) And most of them had full uses left when I got them. Much easier with a heron than the shove chain I had in 17-4 to get that long range tome with full uses. Now that took some thought to get everyone set up and get Volke close enough to get into position next to the mage despite a step or two on reduced movement squares, then be able to rescue and canto some of his shovers to make sure no one was in 3-10 range. And smiting a flyer with mordecai so it had the range to kill something to open up the spot for Volke and protect him from getting hit on enemy phase. Good times. I think everyone with enough wt to shove volke did shove volke, except Muarim and Mordecai shoving Marcia (or Jill, don't remember, they might not have had the wt to shove/smite Jill, though)

Edited July 5, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

Dancer units help you do "crazy shit" but they don't help you with the most important, basic stuff like enemy phase. In particular, units like Ninian and Lalum who don't join very early and contribute 1 player phase per turn while having bad durability are way overrated. Reyson gets the bonus of having more move and refreshing 4 units most of the time, but he joins even later relative to the previously mentioned dancers and has the same basic problems.

[Jaybee]

I was the one that got Rafiel below Nailah and Nolan before the time warp, so I guess I'll explain it. I'll just explain Nailah since if Nailah > Rafiel, and Titania, Zihark and Nolan > Nailah, logically Titania, Zihark and Nolan > Rafiel. Though I could see him going below Mia or even Shinon.

Gives me some practice for that Nailah vs BK debate I'm having with Mekkah.

Nailah and Rafiel have the exact same availability as well, so yay. No "this chapter holds more weight" BS.

Firstly, Rafiel is extremely frail in 1-8. He practically gets KO'd by every physical enemy. Though he is a mage tank while transformed, its unlikely that he'll get to the other side of the map quickly. Nailah, however, takes 0 damage from almost every enemy here. The enemy that does the most damage is a Fire mage who doles out only 9 damage. He also has a lolable 21 hit (9.03 true).

In 1-E, and Rafiel is doing even worse. he still has fail move, and when transformed, he can't climb the cliffs. Also, one 1-2 range weapon or a longbow hits him and he's dead. Finally, Nailah can get the theives rather easily. Just give her the Pass scroll (which isn't needed in Part 3 anyway).

Now, come part 4, Rafiel and Nailah get to Ike's group. The Falcoknights here will slaughter Rafiel if they get to him, which is not good. Nailah, however, is still invincible here, and continues to rape the Chosen One's asses.

During 4-4, the ultra shitload of reinforcements will hit Rafiel easily, not to mention there is the Meteor sage that will tear through him. We also need to protect Tormod and Vika from the enemies, so Rafiel is forcing us to protect him when we coud just charge towards Oliver. His suck mobility also means he can't climb the ledges without only being able to move 1 space.

Finally, we've hit 4-E. Nailah won't die unless she gets hit by multiple dragons, Dheginsea or Ashera. While Rafiel gets immunity in these chapters since he isn't targeted (I think), the only thing that kills him is AOE attacks, but those are 1HKOs. Awesome. Reyson also does much better than him.

[Zkirsche]

For the record, I agree with Rafiel < Shinon, but:

which isn't needed in Part 3 anyway

Untrue, it works pretty well in 3-3 as it helps Haar reach the supplies quicker, 3-8 onwards due to enemy numbers, 3-12 so taht the DB can make a hasty retreat when needed etcetera.

Edited July 5, 2009 by kirsche