OMG it's a tier list

[soundecho]

Rafiel can travel up ledges Dondon. It's just that when he transforms, he gains the ability to not go up ledges..... IS and their silly program doesn't surprise me anymore. =="

[dondon151]

Rafiel can travel up ledges Dondon. It's just that when he transforms, he gains the ability to not go up ledges..... IS and their silly program doesn't surprise me anymore. =="

I know. I guess Rafiel loses the joints in his legs when he transforms.

[Jaybee]

He loses the ability to use his hands since they become his (useless) wings.

[soundecho]

What? Don't herons have arms when transformed D: I clearly remember Reyson falcon punching Oliver, or was that fan art :/ I forget =="

[-Cynthia-]

What? Don't herons have arms when transformed D: I clearly remember Reyson falcon punching Oliver, or was that fan art :/ I forget =="

He wasn't transformed when he punched Oliver.

[Jaybee]

Haar can fly. Works pretty well here, since he can fly behind a crate and light it up if necessary. As for enemies, kill someone and you have an instant gap through to the enemy.

[CT075]

Er... Could someone explain the reasoning behind Tormod>Rolf?

Edited July 5, 2009 by Gordaran

[Mekkah]

Being good in part 1 and bad in part 4 is probably better than being bad in part 3 and good in part 4?

[CT075]

Being good in part 1 and bad in part 4 is probably better than being bad in part 3 and good in part 4?

Fair enough.

[Zkirsche]

Being good in part 1 and bad in part 4 is probably better than being bad in part 3 and good in part 4?

That's kinda simplifying the issue, though. Tormod's there when everyone is epic win - Nailah, BK, Muarim, Volug. But Rofl is good when tehre are epic win units, but not quite so many and many units are struggling (Pallys, sages etcetera) due to not doubling.

[Progenitus]

Tormod also has to go through zero suckage if he ever wants to get to the part where he's w1n, since that's when he joins. Rolf has to be sucking through all of part 3 and getting in your way if he wants to be w1n in part 4.

Rolf's not that w1n in part 4 either due to his durability being only about average, which will show if he wants to 1-range with the double bow.

[Mekkah]

But Rofl is good when tehre are epic win units, but not quite so many and many units are struggling (Pallys, sages etcetera) due to not doubling.

Half of Rolf's "good" period (4-E) is where you have your _best 10_ people. And the rest of part 4 still clearly has more good units than Tormod's 1-E.

[Narga_Rocks]

Dancer units help you do "crazy shit" but they don't help you with the most important, basic stuff like enemy phase. In particular, units like Ninian and Lalum who don't join very early and contribute 1 player phase per turn while having bad durability are way overrated. Reyson gets the bonus of having more move and refreshing 4 units most of the time, but he joins even later relative to the previously mentioned dancers and has the same basic problems.

*shrugs*

I always thought stealing sleep staves and long range tomes helped me finish earlier because even though a lot of my army held back while Volke stole stuff, there were still 2 or 3 units near him that were taking the attacks. Then the rest of my army moves up, no one is put to sleep, my healer doesn't waste a turn restoring someone and being held back, and if I didn't steal it then I would have to be more conservative with the few sleep staves and long range tomes I did have. However, I can see only refreshing one unit as severely limiting their potential, and depending on how high people are placing those dancers then they might be overrated.

In RD we can't steal much in the way of sleep staves, there are a couple but the enemies would have to be disarmed and they are just too protected for even attempting to reach them with just one character even if they didn't need to be disarmed. But the herons still let you attack with guys like Gatrie and Ike and then move them forward into good positions for enemy phase. Frankly, I think the herons do help a lot with enemy phase because it allows you to use your best people as you see fit on player phase, then still place them in the best place for the enemy phase. These two positions are usually different spots on the map, so a heron allows you to optimize both player phase and enemy phase, not just focus on one or the other. Join time doesn't matter at all for how good they are in their chapters, and in this game you get 3 herons in different parts so they are around for a decent amount of time. Even in PoR you had Reyson for 1/3 of the game, so it isn't like his availability is so bad.

I was the one that got Rafiel below Nailah and Nolan before the time warp, so I guess I'll explain it. I'll just explain Nailah since if Nailah > Rafiel, and Titania, Zihark and Nolan > Nailah, logically Titania, Zihark and Nolan > Rafiel. Though I could see him going below Mia or even Shinon.

Although I was really just trying to find out what Gatrie and Mia weren't doing that the others were, I suppose if you could see him going below Mia then it really doesn't matter.

[Colonel M]

Anyone agree/disagree/why on Gatrie > Hawks? >_<;

[Narga_Rocks]

Anyone agree/disagree/why on Gatrie > Hawks? >_<;

I like Gatrie > Hawks, but I don't really know what to say for why. Heck, I like Mia > Hawks, or at least Ulki, but I know I'll probably not be able to convince anyone of that because I'm either not good enough to change someone's mind or the person already thinks Mia > Hawks.

[Jaybee]

Better availability, no weakness to crossbows, great crowning time and not having a gauge > Flying

[Mekkah]

That's not really saying anything, especially since it leaves off the hawk's stat leads, or how much the impact of each lead is (the hawks can use their mobility as an excuse for about anything, be it avoiding bows, or being able to grass, etc).

[Zkirsche]

That's not really saying anything, especially since it leaves off the hawk's stat leads, or how much the impact of each lead is (the hawks can use their mobility as an excuse for about anything, be it avoiding bows, or being able to grass, etc).

the stat leads the hawks have are mostly superfluous - a crowned Gatrie has good enougth AS to double consistently, enougth durabiltiy to never die etctera. Yes it does provide a few pluses now and again against enemies like SM's. But overall, the stat leads are very unimportant. However, tranformation issues + less availability + weakenesses to certain things are pretty important points to consider, much like Janaff's mov. However, thsi isn't POR when the majority of your best units have 9 mov, so 6 mov matters much, much less.

I agree with josh on this one.

[-Cynthia-]

the stat leads the hawks have are mostly superfluous - a crowned Gatrie has good enougth AS to double consistently, enougth durabiltiy to never die etctera. Yes it does provide a few pluses now and again against enemies like SM's. But overall, the stat leads are very unimportant. However, tranformation issues + less availability + weakenesses to certain things are pretty important points to consider, much like Janaff's mov. However, thsi isn't POR when the majority of your best units have 9 mov, so 6 mov matters much, much less.

I agree with josh on this one.

Gatrie isn't entitled to the Crown though. He makes good use of it obviously, but so do Titania and Haar. We cannot assume crowned Gatrie, or we have to consider the opportunity cost. The hawks are generally less resource intensive, they really just need some Olivi Grass.

[Zkirsche]

Gatrie isn't entitled to the Crown though. He makes good use of it obviously, but so do Titania and Haar. We cannot assume crowned Gatrie, or we have to consider the opportunity cost. The hawks are generally less resource intensive, they really just need some Olivi Grass.

@Bold: They need as much speed as they can get and slowing their growth futher is hindering that.

Also, Olivi grasses build up quickly and are wanted by every decent-good laguz - ranulf, Mordy, Janaff, Ulki. There's liek 2 available in 3-4, which should be, like, one, now. Then you get another 2 in the bargain shop. Add reyson into the mix and you have 3 grasses to share between 5 laguz.

[dondon151]

Also, Olivi grasses build up quickly and are wanted by every decent-good laguz - ranulf, Mordy, Janaff, Ulki. There's liek 2 available in 3-4, which should be, like, one, now. Then you get another 2 in the bargain shop. Add reyson into the mix and you have 3 grasses to share between 5 laguz.

Reyson requires little Olivi Grass because he doesn't see combat and his transformation usually lasts for a whole chapter.

You get another Olivi Grass in chapter 8 and 6 more in chapter 10, so problems disappear by then.

[Mekkah]

Mordecai AND Ranulf come with an Olivi Grass each for free, then you can buy 2 more sets in 3-4, and then another 2 in 3-7 (the chapter where they join), and another set in 3-8, and then six more in 3-10. That's more than enough, lol.

As for the crown for Haar/Titania, they'll both take +2 spd sooner rather than later. And the both of them are quite high leveled as it is...I can't be assed to look up EXP numbers now, but it seems pretty clear to me that +2 speed now >>>> maybe 1 more spd by endgame by letting them grow naturally. Not that Haar's 30% growth is impressive enough to warrant that kind of generalisations.

[Progenitus]

Haar and Titania would rather have a speedwing than crown, though yeah, if a crown is available then they'd definitely take it, especially since lots of people like speedwings.

It's worth noting that crowned Gatrie does one round basically everything, possibly with a hand axe (definitely one rounds non-SMs or generals with a forged hand axe, which IIRC is available by 3-7). Janaff would need an energy drop to do the same thing, but without the 2-range. ulki would probably need two. With no favoritism included though, the hawks win offense pretty easily.

[Interceptor]

With no favoritism included though, the hawks win offense pretty easily.

And this is purely an academic point, because not including "favoritism" is pretty silly when it comes to Gatrie.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that Gatrie gives the most bang for your buck when crowned. In any situation where Gatrie is deployed, giving the crown to someone else is less efficient for the army. Those following the thread may notice that this is the primary difference between crown on Gatrie and Energy Drops on Lyre: there's nothing below crowned Gatrie except for less efficient options.

That calculus would change if Gatrie were not the best choice for the 3-3 crown, but I'm not sure that I see Titania or Haar as being better candidates than he is. Crowning Titania when she has less than 23 SPD is almost a waste, because Sol is hardly worth it, 23-24 AS is not enough to consistently double the 21 AS enemies, and Titania hits a brick wall in terms of levels once she hits tier 3 (so you can't count on her SPD growth to fix it quite yet). Uncapping her STR is useful, but it has limited potential if she's not doubling consistently. Haar is basically in Titania's position, except that his mastery is considerably more useful than hers, mitigating the penalty of him failing to double (28% chance to ORKO on a unit that can take tons of Enemy Phase, that's not bad).

But anyway, I see Gatrie losing offense to hawks only in the scenario where a player denies him a resource that he's better with than anyone else, aka I don't think so, Tim. That doesn't mean that Gatrie gets it for free, but it does mean that the possibility should weigh very heavily on his performance, with the lowest negative of anyone else who can use it.

[Narga_Rocks]

As for the crown for Haar/Titania, they'll both take +2 spd sooner rather than later. And the both of them are quite high leveled as it is...I can't be assed to look up EXP numbers now, but it seems pretty clear to me that +2 speed now >>>> maybe 1 more spd by endgame by letting them grow naturally. Not that Haar's 30% growth is impressive enough to warrant that kind of generalisations.

Um, giving Titania or Haar a crown and NOT getting a unit with 25 speed seems pretty useless to me. Titania needs 4 levels just to get 23 speed, at which point she is --/20 anyway so she might as well endure. Gatrie needs 5 levels to get to 23 speed and the crown pushes him to 25. Gatrie starts 6 levels lower so it would happen a lot faster than Titania. Without 25 speed a character is not doubling 2 warriors in 3-4, any warriors or halbs in 3-5, any 3-8 warriors or halbs and 1 out of 3 snipers, in 3-10 there is already a 22 speed warrior and two 22 speed halbs, and all halbs warriors and snipers have at least 21, then by 3-11 the halbs and warriors all have 22 speed. In 3-E there is even 2 warriors with 23 speed and they both have short axes, but I'm not sure where they are.

Basically, Haar needs to get 1 speed naturally and take a speedwing and a crown. Titania needs a speedwing and a crown. Gatrie just needs a crown.

Further, since people will need 26 speed by 3-10 anyway, it is important to note just how little exp they will get at --/20/1. So if they did not get 24 spd before crowning, note that Gatrie has the best chance of getting that +1 speed in one level at that point. And the best shot at the next point of speed for doubling the 23 speed guys in 3-E.

If we assume Gatrie gets to level 15 or 17, Titania is either 16 or 18, Haar is 18, and no bexp for when they capped:

HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Titania:

16/1 40 28 14 24 23 19 23 18

18/1 41.2 29 14.3 25.1 24 19.8 23.4 18.6

Gatrie

15/1 49 29 9.25 22.25 25 16.5 29 16.75

17/1 49 29 9.35 23.15 25 17.1 30.2 17.45

Haar

18/1 52.1 29.9 6.35 28 24.1 16.15 28 12.4 (can't make it line up, oh well)

And I am probably giving Haar more levels than he should get.

Gatrie can get to level 17 if you wait a bit before crowning him, and since he is likely best in 3-5 taking a Horseslayer and OHKOing paladins anyway, a crown doesn't help him much in 3-5.

Anyway, even a 15/1 Gatrie has the required speed, more defence than either and doesn't lose res by much to Titania. Without a speedwing neither of the other 2 do what we need (ORKOing warriors and halbs) and if you want to argue speedwings, Gatrie won't even need levels to double 3-E warriors if we give him the speedwing.

The point is, without a speedwing + crown, the other two can't do what we want of them anyway. Titania is a sucky candidate too because she still takes damage from swordmasters and so a crit will take off 10 to 15 hp, and she is 4HKOd by a lot of enemies. Assuming a speedwing, she has 87 evade at neutral bio and including Ike's stars, but with a fair number of enemies in the 130s it means she is facing 4 or 5 HKOs at ~50% hitrates, meaning we can't stick her in front of 7 or 8 enemies and expect her to live every time.

Haar is likely the best argument for Gatrie not being entitled to a crown, but he still needs both the crown and the speedwing. Frankly, since he is going to spend a fair amount of time off on his own in 3-4 and 3-7, and possibly flying around in 3-5 to help groups in trouble he is not always going to be there to help stand in front of something and punish. The crown saves him from being OHKOd by an elthunder crit with Nullify on, but without Nullify it is still a OHKO and he needs daunt to make a 0% crit chance against. But if he is only level 16 before crowning he is looking at 23.5 spd with a wing, which means a higher chance of only 25 speed and then he needs a few levels just to get 26 spd. Anyway, since we likely want our crown user to take provoke he needs provoke and daunt to not have a chance of being OHKOd.

In the end, since everyone not Gatrie needs a stat booster + a crown to be want we want, and only Gatrie or Haar can stand in the way of 10 or more enemies with a crown and expect to live, I don't really see a problem with letting Gatrie have it for comparisons. Since Haar is taking a speedwing anyway, it means 24 speed isn't too far out of the way and so he only misses out on some warriors and halbs before 3-11 and its crown. If you are trying to maximize your army's killing power, isn't 1 unit with 24 speed + 1 unit with 25 soon to be 26 speed superior to 1 unit with 23 speed + 1 unit with 26 speed far away from 27 speed?

As a team, crowned Gatrie + speedwing Haar double more stuff and crush more enemies than Gatrie + crowned speedwing Haar. Really, if we are looking at opportunity cost for determining the crown's best fit, isn't that enough for the crown to side with Gatrie? (It's ironic, but Gatrie having a 23 spd cap instead of 24 spd cap actually makes a huge difference in the opportunity cost of giving the crown to Gatrie. A 24 spd cap would be inferior to the 25 spd he gets now with the crown, but the above argument wouldn't apply as strongly. The irony is that Gatrie with a 23 tier 2 spd cap should be higher on the tier list than a theoretical Gatrie with a 25 tier 2 spd cap because it takes the second Gatrie longer to get to 25 spd since he is less entitled to the crown)

And if you weren't convinced by the durability argument with Titania earlier, the same stuff applies with her as with Haar, too, only Titania actually has a shot at 25 spd by level 19 with the speedwing and no crown. Since she caps str at level 18, if you get her close to 19 then bexp the rest, speed is now her 3rd best growth by .1 over her 4th best so 25 speed is easy. At this point, it should be obvious that 2 units with 25 speed is better than 1 unit with 23 and 1 unit with 26. So again, crowned Gatrie + speedwing Titania > Gatire + crowned speedwing Titania.

You can't just say that a unit would benefit by an item and have that as your reason for not giving it to a different unit, you have to look at how much giving one unit an item rather than another benefits your army.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks