OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Not to mention that Skrimir has innate Resolve, making it more likely for that AS to jump up a bit (if I'm doing this right 39, if not it's gotta be somewhere over 30). That is if the 1 AS made a difference.

[cheetah7071]

Skrimir vs Tanith requires discussion? Lawl.

Tanith lv --/20/1 (B Sigrun?, silver greatlance): 40 hp, 43 atk, 27 AS, 25 def, 26 res, 82 avo

Skrimir base lv: 66 hp, 54 atk, 26 AS, 32 def, 18 res, 76 avo

Come on, all this bridge and desert hype is getting out of hand if someone can actually make a case for Tanith here, and Skrimir has full move in the desert anyway once transformed.

Well, to be fair, nobody contested it after I brought it up. The only concern I had was whether Tanith goes down below Brom and Muarim to park below Skrimir, or if Skrimir moves up through them.

[Colonel M]

If Skrimir > Tanith does happen, I wouldn't deny that Skrimir has a case on Maurim though.

[Shadow Mir]

I say Tanith should go below Skrimir.

[Vykan12]

If Skrimir > Tanith does happen, I wouldn't deny that Skrimir has a case on Maurim though.

Muarim vs Skrimir is a match-up worthy of the debate section. There's a lot to be weighed against Muarim's part 1 and Skrimir's part 4.

[Colonel M]

Muarim vs Skrimir is a match-up worthy of the debate section. There's a lot to be weighed against Muarim's part 1 and Skrimir's part 4.

As fun as it would sound (and as much as I would do it) 1) I don't want to get my ass kicked any more than I have so far due to my terrible debating skillz and 2) full with Camtech's 2 (which I haven't worked on), yours and mine with Ike and Manith, then I'm waiting on A2ZOMG and GHD's replies.

[Progenitus]

Muarim vs Skrimir? I wouldn't mind going against you, prog. I personally think it's a close matchup so this could bring some light onto the issue.

Which side do you want?

[Vykan12]

Since Skrimir is part 4 only, we'd need some thorough HM stats to look at his performance properly. There are only enemy levels and weapon choices listed from 4-3 onwards, though I could try filling those in based on class bases and growths if it isn't too tedious.

[charmander6000]

Muarim/Skrimir seems interesting. I don't have much time so I'll post a few major points.

1-7 - No Olivi Grass, comes transformed. Untransformed can 2RKO all enemies except armors. He's doubled by a few non-swordmaster enemies who still only 3RKO

1-8 - Olivi Grass is available, Under untransform many enemies can double him who 3RKO.

1-E - May miss due to high enemy avoid, but so is everyone else.

4-P - Skrimir doubles a ORKO most enemies while taking single digit hits

4-3 - Skrimir requires speedwing or to go into resolve to double

[cheetah7071]

I started off a muarim vs skrimir post before realizing that the HM stats don't extend into part 4. However, from what I looked at, I'm not sure how Skrimir can win. Muarim alternates between an overlevelled Aran when unstransformed (higher hp allows for him to survive the same number of rounds despite being doubled) and Nailah when transformed (nigh invincibility and the ability to smash anything in the face in a single round, but only one range). I'm not sure how long olivi grass really lasts you, so I have no idea if keeping him transformed is viable, but if it is, then Muarim is a second Nailah who comes a chapter earlier.

Then in part 4 Skrimir is offensively somewhat above average (shaky doubling against paladins is bad, but he auto-smashes things he does double), and a defensive god (something like 15HKOs from the 4-P paladins). Skrimir is only a tiny bit ahead of Muarim defensively, though (2 def and 8 hp I believe), and is only a speedwing and S strike away from matching Skrimir offensively (exceeding by a tiny bit before Skrimir's support builds, actually). Muarim needs 70 swings to hit S rank, which is probably achieved sometime during 4-3 if you used him in part 1. this isn't even mentioning the fact that Muarim levels as a 20/18 beorc whereas Skrimir levels as a 20/20/10 Beorc (not that Muarim's growths are anything to write home about).

Then Skrimir hits SS strike and mastery somewhere around 4-E-3 and leaves Muarim in the dust.

Muarim's part one dances circles around Skrimir's 4-P performance. A second Nailah a chapter earlier is absolutely amazing. Then for the first few chapters they're together, Skrimir is just a Muarim who's used speedwings. Then he beats Muaim over the head for what? 4-E-3 through 4-E-5? 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 are absolute joke boss rushdowns where you have enough royals to do any heavy lifting required. That leaves 4-E-3 as the sole chapter where Skrimir has a significant lead over Muarim and where you'll actually notice that you have non-royals. So, a better 4-E-3 performance vs a second Nailah in part one.

Really doesn't seem that difficult to me.

[Vykan12]

You're cutting Skrimir's 4-P and 4-3 a bit short. There's very few units who want to go Micaiah's route for various reasons.

-No leadership bonus.

-If you aren't a sage/laguz/flier, then half of Micaiah's chapters give you the finger.

-If you're under-levelled, you're going Tibarn's route.

-If you're a GM, you're probably sticking with Ike to deal with 4-4.

So Skrimir is competing with Naesala and maybe the hawks for very best unit on that route.

Now you mentioned Muarim taking a speedwing gives him Skrimir's base, but that makes no difference at all since 26 AS doesn't double anything from 4-4 onwards. In fact, it GETS doubled by enemies, namely spirits. Putting a speedwing into Skrimir, however, gives him 30 AS, which is doubling all the way to 4-E-2, and if he leveled up 4 times, that jumps to 32. It takes a lot less effort to make Skrimir decent in 4-E than it does to make Muarim decent anywhere in part 4.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Vykan12

[Colonel M]

This depends on how you weigh Maurim being a positive.

First off, if he's staying transformed, he's taking a rare resource that can be used by Vika and, later on, Volug. Then, we have the DB who is lacking in CEXP enough as it is, and another killface unit means that Maurim here is actually stealing another resource from the DB that is needed. That's two strikes.

Skrimir is hopping onto a team that has a lack of Authority Stars and, usually, consists of fliers. While this isn't bad, the team is a bit weary against Crossbows. To make matters worse, we have frail units such as Micaiah, Sanaki, and Sothe to an extent. Skrimir can use something like Saviour and keep someone like Sanaki from harm or, in 4-3, he can shove someone away from a unit due to the lack of Mov in the desert. Then here's a good comparison...

Naesala (Great Beak): 47 Atk

Skrimir (Fang): 54 Atk

And this is against a Laguz Royal BTW. Granted Naesala can usually double more than Skrimir, but Skrimir has ways to edge around his doubling issue. IIRC Naesala can even miss out on ORKOes, though something like Tear and Adept make up for it slightly (Tear before factoring doubling has a massive 42% activation rate under neutral Bio + 42% for Adept, then factor doubling). This doesn't mean Skrimir is horrible either.

Then there's the Level argument. Skrimir here is leveling like a 20/18 unit IIRC (25 X 1.5 = 37.5), so he isn't exactly lacking in CEXP by a whole lot. Then BEXP should be plentiful by the time we hit Endgame, at which he's likely gained a level or two, making it easier to do so. Not to mention there's also Paragon that can easily be placed on Skrimir, assuming he gets a decent amount of CEXP (don't quote me on that because I'm not 100% sure).

I dunno, I see Skrimir winning this since Maurim takes up resources that are desperately needed. Skrimir isn't needing Paragon in general, but more of a minor note. Not to mention Skrimir's slower gauge making it easy to slap a Laguz Stone on him and needing to Grass very little (goes down 3 per turn and 2 per battle, which is better than many Laguz in general).

EDIT: Another note of Skrimir also having Provoke. While risky with Resolve, it can help him kick into the situation a bit easier or draw attention away from another unit that has Shade.

EDIT2: An easy way to get Skrimir to activate Resolve range is kind of risky, but it involves staying untransformed and taking an Atk of 33 or higher, which converts to 34 / 66 damage when doubled, hence Resolve range. Easy as pie.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

Since nobody seemed to contest Skrimir>Tanith, I guess that just leaves the exact positioning. In general I'm more tempted to move Tanith down than Skrimir up; I think Skrimir would have a hard time climbing over Muarim simply due to Muarim's part 1. Any thoughts?

I didn't reply to it because I want to handle one issue at a time, and that one issue I wanted handled was Hawks vs. Gatrie and Mia. I will, however, see what I can bring up in Tanith's defense.

EDIT: In other news, I'm adding a "current issues" section to the first post.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[cheetah7071]

Then there's the Level argument. Skrimir here is leveling like a 20/18 unit IIRC (25 X 1.5 = 37.5), so he isn't exactly lacking in CEXP by a whole lot.

I'll see what I can do about the rest of this post in a bit, but I believe this is a factual error. Laguz, iirc, gain exp as twice their level (25x2 = 20/20/10) with CEXP and 1.5 times their level with BEXP. So Skrimir will be levelling a bit slower than the GMs, not considerably faster than them.

Edited July 9, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Progenitus]

In addition, 1-7 and 1-8 are fairly short chapters. 1-E is Muarim's only real long chapter in part 1, which has the tightest competition because you have both Nailah and BK (Nailah was in 1-8 too, but since she and Muarim were in opposite corners of the map, they're unlikely to actually compete against each other), along with DB units who should be promoted (master seal) or almost promoted and more capable of holding their own.

Muarim is somewhat usable in 4-4, since he's forced. And he hits hard (IIRC he's 2HKOing at base level. He does have 46 att) and gets 3-4 rounded or so even considering the enemies double him. He's probably the worst unit you're fielding in that chapter (other than Tormod/Vika), but since it's such a huge and hectic chapter, Muarim can find some use.

The big issue, though, is that in part 1 he's taking grasses away from Volug who wants them in part 3, and our supply is tight (I think we have, like, 2. Maybe 3. I know that even with minimal grassing in part 1, I barely have enough for Volug in part 3). Muarim untransformed is kinda lame, mainly because he can't attack anything on player phase at all. So he's only Nailah #2 for half the chapter, which is still cool, but really....

However, Skrimir has issues of his own. 4-3, IIRC, has a lot of 2-range units, which makes Skrimir useless against them on enemy phase for anything other than walling. And his raping 4-P is not particularly impressive, because that chapter is mostly paladins, who get raped by anything that moves (remember we have horseslayers for our lance users), and IIRC that chapter also has its share of 2-range enemies, which makes him less impressive. This is just going off my memory, so if someone can prove otherwise, it will sway my opinion greatly.

He does beat Muarim in 4-E, but I'd value their performance pre-4-E over 4-E, since even though Skrimir wins 4-E, he's not my first choice for a guy I'd bring into 4-E. I mean, if I wanted a laguz that had uber att and def but no formshift, I have Giffca, but he didn't need a speedwing.

I don't see how Skrimir's innate skills are helping him. The only advantage you have from having a skill innate is that it takes no capacity, but doesn't skrimir have like 60 free cap? He can use anything and still have capacity leftover. And Muarim with resolve is doubling everything except SMs. Actually, Muarim won't even need to be untransformed to be put into resolve range, because enemies double him when transformed, which means you have to do less fancy footwork to put him into resolve.

I think this just proves that we need to debaet, prog =/

[Colonel M]

I'll see what I can do about the rest of this post in a bit, but I believe this is a factual error. Laguz, iirc, gain exp as twice their level (25x2 = 20/20/10) with CEXP and 1/5 times their level with BEXP. So Skrimir will be levelling at somewhere around the same speed as the GMs, not considerably faster than them.

Alright, though IIRC he BEXPs like a 20/18 unit.

Skrimir: 2(50 x (25x1.5)+50) = 3850

20/18 unit: 2(50 x 38 + 50) = 3900

Serenes doesn't have the EXP calculation, hence the error.

I mean, if I wanted a laguz that had uber att and def but no formshift, I have Giffca, but he didn't need a speedwing.

Not entirely debating against this (I do agree); however, Skrimir could also build up a support level in those two chapters. Or, should I say, he has that chance of building one. Not saying Skrimir > Giffca because THAT one should be obvious in terms of 4-E.

As for the innate skills, the main advantage is that he isn't stealing a resource away from a unit. Resolve comes free unto him, hence he has the rights to use it. Yes, it can be passed around to someone else, but I wouldn't say Skrimir having it is such a terrible idea.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[cheetah7071]

Before I go into my defense of Muarim, does anybody know what mt laguz weapons have untransformed? I can't find the data in any of my usual spots.

[Colonel M]

Str + Weapon Mt IIRC. Because I remember the argument for Vika the Bandit needing 16 Def, which 9 base Str + 7 Mt = 16 Atk.

EDIT: Haha fun fact.

Skrimir (untrasnformed): 35 Atk

20/-- Sothe (Silver Dagger): 34 Atk (36 w/A Miccy)

o_O;

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[cheetah7071]

Looks like Micaiah's little gang only gets 3 olivi grasses. So, I'll grant that Muarim using them is negative utility overall. We all know what Muarim is like transformed, so let's take a look at what he's like untransformed.

Muarim, level 19, A strike, untransformed, no support:

58 hp, 28 mt, 130 acc, 11 AS, 34 avo, 15 def, 9 res

So, just for kicks, let's compare him to the DB's tankiest character, Aran. Aran certainly isn't as good as, say, Nolan or Sothe, but he's pulling his weight, right?

Aran, level 13, iron lance, B support Laura (I find it hard to give him anybody with a better affinity):

27 hp, 22 mt, 132 acc, 12 AS, 42 avo, 16 def, 5 res

Whoops, looks like Aran loses pretty much across the board to an untransformed Muarim. Muarim can even cover his avo loss by taking advantage of his bond with Tormod. Aran does continue to level up, yes, but I did some calculations, and even if Aran makes it somehow, miraculously, to 20/0, he's still 3RKOed in 1-E--just like untransformed Muarim. Muarim gets doubled, but has enough hp to survive two rounds anyways.

So transformed, Muarim is Nailah, and untransformed he's like Aran except with better stats and no player phase. And every time he counters somebody untransformed, he's halfway to godmode (+15 to the guage).

Taken together with Skrimir's borderline doubling of paladins of all things in 4-P, Skrimir has a lot of ground to make up in 4-2 and 4-E.

[Vykan12]

I think this just proves that we need to debaet, prog =/

If you really want to debaet, it's gonna have to wait a few days. I have an exam tomorrow and as mentioned before I need to fill in the 4-3 and 4-E stats missing from the HM enemy stats topic.

[Progenitus]

Muarim, level 19, A strike, untransformed, no support:

58 hp, 28 mt, 130 acc, 11 AS, 34 avo, 15 def, 9 res

So, just for kicks, let's compare him to the DB's tankiest character, Aran. Aran certainly isn't as good as, say, Nolan or Sothe, but he's pulling his weight, right?

Aran, level 13, iron lance, B support Laura (I find it hard to give him anybody with a better affinity):

27 hp, 22 mt, 132 acc, 12 AS, 42 avo, 16 def, 5 res

Whoops, looks like Aran loses pretty much across the board to an untransformed Muarim. Muarim can even cover his avo loss by taking advantage of his bond with Tormod. Aran does continue to level up, yes, but I did some calculations, and even if Aran makes it somehow, miraculously, to 20/0, he's still 3RKOed in 1-E--just like untransformed Muarim. Muarim gets doubled, but has enough hp to survive two rounds anyways.

Aran's level is pretty low. Only 13/0 at 1-7? That's only 6 levels for 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, and two parts of 1-6. I'd say 15/0 is a closer estimate.

And... iron lance? Are you kidding me? not even a regular steel that he can already use with no AS loss, let alone a forge that every DB unit you're using seriously should have?

So, with a +3 mt iron lance at 15/0...

28 HP, 26 att, 134.8 hit, 12.8 AS, 44.4 ao, 17.6 def, 5 res

Muarim does have better stats, but the lack of player phase is definitely annoying (Aran can deal like 50% HP damage to an enemy every turn while Muarim's doing nothing), and he only has better stats because the enemies are hovering around 14 AS in 1-7. By 1-8 we have bandits who are hovering around 15-16 AS and double Muarim, and by 1-E we have guys like 16 AS archers that double Muarim easily.

Also, I seriously want to know what enemies are 3HKOing Aran in 1-E if he's 20/0. At that level with A Laura he has 30.5 HP and 22 def. You need 32 att to 3HKO or be a mage. The number of physical enemies that can 3HKO Aran in 1-E I can count on one hand.

Even if we give him a lower level, like 17/0 with A Laura, that's still 29 HP/20 def. You still need ~30 att to 3HKO (note that 30 att 2RKO's untransformed Muarim), which is a threshold few enemies reach, while you only need ~25 att to 3RKO untransformed Muarim (at that att value, Aran is 6HKO'd). Some myrms don't even damage him anymore, and enemies like javelin soldiers do 4 damage to him, but double 9s to untransformed Muarim. Even throwing him something like a C Tormod support doesn't really help him much. That gives him 58 HP/16 def. It still takes ~31 att to 2RKO Muarim, and ~26 to 3RKO.

Also, Aran can upgrade to a forged steel at 1-E, which also means we can add more hit in addition to att, which helps because enemies in 1-E are frickin dodgy (wtf 50 avoid armors), and the hit helps him for 3-6 and 3-13 anyway.

Muarim is also a lot less likely to get a skill in 1-E (admittedly, the only skill Aran can use is cancel which isn't really that helpful, unless you seal him early), since he disappears with it until 4-4 while you at least get Aran back in 3-6.

So no, I would say an untransformed Muarim is overall worse than Aran in part 1. He is Nailah #2 when transformed though.

And every time he counters somebody untransformed, he's halfway to godmode (+15 to the guage).

I thought you had to do no damage on the counter to build gauge? I know there was a lot of discussion about Vika in 1-8 about her gauge and how she had to do 0 damage to a bandit to increase her gauge (which was why they wanted this bandit on a thicket to give it +1 def).

[Jaybee]

I thought you had to do no damage on the counter to build gauge? I know there was a lot of discussion about Vika in 1-8 about her gauge and how she had to do 0 damage to a bandit to increase her gauge (which was why they wanted this bandit on a thicket to give it +1 def).

Smash is right on this. Either 0 damage or no counter (2 range)

[Narga_Rocks]

We also seem to use cripplers in different ways. I don't have my crippler go up against a swarm of enemies. I usually just have my crippler attack something on player phase and not kill it if I have other units around that would have nothing to do if my crippler killed it (e.g. Ulki attacks something he can't kill, and then someone I'm feeding kills to like Soren gets the kill, because in this scenario if Ulki killed the enemy, Soren would have nothing to do). On enemy phase I usually want as many enemies dead as possible so I'd use my strongest guy possible, and I rarely get swarmed by more than 3 enemies or so anyway per turn, so if I'm bothering with feeding kills to other units, I don't really care if my crippler can't kill, since I should have enough units on standby to deal with the rest, even though this would make me go a little slower.

Meh, I'm getting tired of this crippler argument anyway.

Yeah, I'm pretty bored of it too. Though I think I understand something from earlier now, so thanks.

Vykan:

So, I might as well try, right? And this would be easier if I had the HM exp formulas and if I was a good judge of reasonable levels for these guys.

I might as well post my first 9 pages since it is the same length as Narga’s original post.

What the… where did you get this high arbitrary value from?

By 3-8, we have at most 22100 BEXP available (see here).

That is only if you include 3-8's bexp, which is only available in 3-10's base.

3-P: 3425

3-1: 1500

3-2: 1875

3-3: 3550

3-4: 3125

3-5: 2000

3-7: 2500

17975 bexp.

So Ulki's 8750 is > 48.6% of our supply, and Janaff is 4450, or ~24.2%, totaling >72.8% of our bexp. (I thought it was only 8550 and 4350, but okay)

Ulki needs 8750 BEXP for 2 full level-ups, which is only ~39.5% of your total supply. What’s more is that he can train a little untransformed in 3-7 without consequence at which point he probably gains exp faster than your average unit. If he managed ¾ of a level-up doing that, now he only needs 5525 BEXP (25%). Janaff evidently requires less since he’s only 1 level away from being able to use a satori sign.

This may still sound like a lot, but basically anyone who tries to use BEXP is going to be using a significant amount to begin with. For instance, BEXPing a 20/15 unit 2 levels costs 7300 BEXP (33%).

I dunno about you, but with such scarce BEXP, all I’d want from it is to BEXP ram a few characters’ speed values once they hit late second tier, as well as giving 2 characters a 34-36% mastery per hit.

Where does the tier list stand on slowplaying? The idea, as I'm sure most know, is to get people up to like 60 to 80 exp or something and bexp from there. Ulki would need to enter combat 60 times to get that kind of reduction. Mia or someone can get 160 exp in a lot of maps, and then it won't cost much to bexp. Anyway, the idea is that after a few chapters of giving bexp to people who have capped things there will be less for Janaff and Ulki. I suppose they get to fight for the bexp individually, but it seems kind of unfair to everyone else on the list that both of them get the same half of the bexp when making comparisons but if they both do it then it takes almost 3/4.

As a level 28 unit he gains exp untransformed like a 20/8 beorc, but he isn't killing without some major headaches in positioning and weakening the thing with someone else and making sure that whatever is almost dead isn't dead enough to run to a priest and also that it can't attack Mist/Rhys/Soren/Ilyana. So, he gains hit exp like a 20/8 beorc. At effectively 3 levels under the competition, he is likely pulling 7 or 8 exp per attack. He is not getting much this way, especially if we want him to be helpful for most of the chapter.

With such scarce bexp, I try to minimize how much I use on each unit so I can get everybody all the time that it helps. Giving it to someone for a mastery skill when I've already got people who can do what he does on enemy phase without massive bexp dumps doesn't seem as important to me as boosting everyone's stats.

And let me remind you that the crown is a highly competitive item. List of people who want one:

Titania

Gatrie

Soren

Shinon

Mia

Oscar

Speedwing!Haar

Rolf

Tauroneo

This isn’t even mentioning anyone who wants to save themselves a full level-up, or maybe promote at lv 19 because of everything they gain (+2 in like every stat, a mastery, possibly a new weapon type, etc).

You know, I really wish you'd responded to my earlier post about why Titania and Haar getting the crown is bad. I'd at least know how you would respond to much of what I might bring up here. It was a few pages back, though, so you may not have seen it.

So, in 3-4, the GMs without giving out the crown or stat boosters have Mia that can ORKO swordmasters, Mia and Ike and Shinon that can double the other things, and then there is the rest that can't double much. Now, with a Mia/Ike support, we basically have 2 units that can tank on enemy phase and they both have really high kill rates, especially adept Mia, but their 2 range isn't so great without storm swords and we steal one in 3-2 and have to disarm/steal the rest until we nab Tanith's in 3-11, or spend 4000 of the db's money in 3-6 and steal from one of them with Heather in 3-7.

Anyway, point being the GM's have two units that can kill stuff 1 range on enemy phase and can't put out really good 2 range without a limited resource.

Early crowning is all about what they give up down the road compared to what they bring now. The other big question is what do we want our first tier 3er to give us? Isn't it nice to make something that can tank and pull off good two range damage?

So, let's cover what Gatrie brings.

25 speed, doubling everything not a swordmaster until 3 guys in 3-10, and a lot more in 3-11, by which point he likely has 26 spd anyway. What else? 29 def. Many HKO from most enemies, 5HKO from the strongest physical enemy that isn't a boss in 3-8, and even 5HKO from mages, and the druids likely 3HKO, but we can buy pure waters starting in 3-7, which obviously makes them suck too. Earlier is obviously even better for him, like in 3-4 where the best physical is 6HKO and that's only 2 guys, 2 more are 7HKO and 1 is 9HKO, all the rest are much much worse. Mages are mostly 6HKO here, 1 is 5HKO, and some are worse than 6. That's all without support.

Elthunder mages in 3-4 have a 1 or 2% chance of critting, but even with 2 crits they won't kill a supported Gatrie.

So, Gatrie is effectively invincible with a bit of healing once in a while, and I mentioned in my other post that most enemies will miss half the time anyway so over time those #HKOs can almost be considered double that. As you point out later, it isn't like a unit would face 5 guys every turn. He can ORKO every single one of these things except the Generals and swordmasters, but with a forged steel axe he is ORKOing generals in 3-4 and 3-5, except like 1 or 2, which saves hammers for later when no one ORKOs them. As for the swordmasters, think <10 hp with ~17 def. If Gatrie was using a steel greatlance, 35 hp/17 def vs 43 mt means 9 hp left and almost anything can kill it. And that's the strongest swordmaster in 3-5. The weaker ones against a Gatrie with a forged steel are left with 5 hp (34hp/16def), which a base level Mist can kill with her florette.

Without the crown, 26 def and 12.75 res is not pulling off these defensive feats nearly as well, especially against mages in 3-4 and 3-5, or in 3-7 on near the end of a pure water or without one at all. Plus, he takes actual damage from swordmasters and so the crit threat is real, and his offence pretty well blows.

So, giving anyone else a crown needs to make up for the difference between crowned Gatrie and not crowned Gatrie.

For Titania, unless you plan on getting Titania to 20/20, or 20/18 then bexping and forcing speed through resets to 20/19, then crowning, she gets 23 or 24 speed with a crown, so she needs that speedwing that Haar wanted so much. But if Titania is 20/18 and we gave her a speedwing, well she already has 24 speed. Little bit of bexp and she has 25 speed. I say little bit because if you get her 50exp of the way there it won't cost much. So Titania with a speedwing already doubles pretty much anything we want her to, and since she needs that speedwing to match Gatrie's offence regardless of crowning, crowning does diddly for her offence. She has more strength, sure, but she was already ORKOing everything not a general or swordmaster already.

Offensively, Titania will have the exact same str as Gatrie after crowning with the exact same growth, and instead of 2 units ORKOing anything they lay eyes on we now have 1.

Titania's defence is improved a bit, sure, but unlike Gatrie there is actually a chance she might die if we through her against 6 enemies, Gatrie won't. It requires her to not Sol, but a 12% sol activation that doesn't activate at 2 range anyway isn't something to count on for saving her. While it is true that we don't have to send her against 6 enemies at once, we give up that option that we would've had with Gatrie. It might only come up once or twice anyway, but the main thing is that we just gave up the chance at having two people with stellar offence instead of the one we have with a crowned speedwinged Titania. I went into more detail on her hp/def/res in that post I mentioned.

So, she doesn't give Gatrie level-defence and can already pull off his offence with a speedwing. Why bother crowning her?

Soren. I guess I have to respond. First off, crown him when? --/12? Chapter 3-4? Can a guy with no enemy phase who can only kill leftovers get 7 levels in 4 chapters, some of which are short? --/10 where he only has 19.75 speed? 29 mag might be fun and all, but we shouldn't need to heal 39 hp with a physic unless we messed up, and he needs at least a chapter before he can get C staves even with discipline. I did the calculations way back in the Pelleas stuff, saying getting him C staves is too much effort when Bastian and Oliver have it already. It takes 5 heals and 4 mends with discipline. 9 turns, or less with reyson but then he isn't attacking much anyway. He'll barely reach 3HKOd by some enemies, the rest 2HKO anyway, but there will still be an existing crit chance against him. He'll have a whopping 22 speed, 24 with a wing, or maybe 25 so he can have the magic number, but that requires a wing and a crown and a few levels he probably won't have by 3-4 to get the 21 speed before wing and crown. So he can't double stuff, and can't survive much even if you do find a way to get him to 25 speed.

We still don't have a really good 2 range wall that can cause much pain to enemies and not die trying.

Shinon. Well, what level Shinon? I don't think he's getting 4 levels in the time it takes Gatrie to get 5 when Gatrie has a better enemy phase and is 3 levels lower. But suppose Shinon does manage 4 levels in 4 chapters somehow. Let's even suppose that having less str won't cause the silencer to ORKO less things before he gets a silver forge in 4-2/4-4. He still has 28 mt on enemy phase and we still don't have a good 2 range wall. Plus this fool only has 24 def at --/16/1 and 49 hp, so he is 4HKOd by things in just a few chapters. Can he deadeye with a crossbow? Even if he can, he's doing crap damage when he doesn't, at least compared to Gatrie. And Deadeye is another skill/2 activation and it doesn't even heal him. So he can't wall as much nor can he kill as much on enemy phase. His player phase production improves how? He now probably doubles and thus ORKOs swordmasters, at least until 3-E where he is unlikely to have gotten 30 spd yet.

So we crowned Shinon and the only improvement over what was already there is 3 range and ORKOing swordmasters. He still can't enemy phase so we still just have Ike and Mia. Yippee.

Mia gets what? I'll give her level 12, which is 5 levels. She is decent in 3-P and 3-1, and much better in 3-2 and 3-3, but she hasn't fully hit stride yet so I don't think I can put her higher.

--/12/1 Mia gets:

41.5 hp, 22.25 str, 9.75 mag, 31 skl, 32 spd, 19.75 lck, 18 def, 13.25 res.

Why did we do this to her? She could've had 23 str by promotion and 26 after promotion if we just slow played a bit and promoted in 3-11 or 3-E, now she'll take forever to get to 26 str and she hasn't seen much improvement. She already had >70% kill rate with a crit forge + Adept, Adept is superior to Astra when she 3HKOs stuff anyway, so we'll need to keep it, and the 2 speed is offset by the loss of 4 luck she would have with a bit of slow playing and the fact that leveling now takes forever. We uncap her speed, sure, but she didn't need it anyway. Plus her def will now take longer to reach 4HKO from stuff, and since it will take at least 7 more levels to cap we can't do any bexp in part 4 to get res high enough for a wardwood tile to make white dragons 3HKO instead of 2HKO. (Remember, the bexp is not entire levels, just finishing off with like 20 points of exp, which is not too costly for bexp)

She sees no significant improvement in offence or defence and it hurts her later on because she won't ORKO stuff without activations as early as she would have if we hadn't screwed her over.

Oscar.

Funny.

Again, what level, and do we give him Ike?

Let's pretend he can get to --/17 by 3-4 when Gatrie has trouble getting 5 levels and he's lower leveled and better in the other 4 chapters.

44.5 hp, 23.75 str, 12 mag, 26 skl, 26 spd, 20.75 lck, 20.5 def, 18 res.

So, with B not Ike, and later by 3-7 or 3-8 its A not Ike, he has:

26*2+20.75+15+15=102.75 avo, or 107.75 avo with thunder/wind/dark.

110.75 avo with A, 117.75 with t/w/d

This is actually pretty good avo, even without Ike. (Note, giving him Ike would mean Mia can't wall when not on best bio anymore, which means Mia gets dropped to make Oscar virtually invincible, which she already was.)

There is a couple of unfortunate things about this. First, if we don't wall his support then Oscar won't be attacked on enemy phase, his support will. Maybe provoke on Oscar plus shade on his partner would fix this, but I can't be sure, and it would mean less skill capacity on that other unit if it isn't Ilyana (Oscar as well, but I once said provoke on our tier 3 unit seems like a good idea). Without Oscar's supports, 87.75 avo while being 3HKOd by 46 mt and 4HKOd by ~42 mt is not good.

Most importantly, he has trouble 100% ORKOing warriors and halbs without a forge, because the silver greatlance has bad hit% and he's looking at 52+20.75 +15+50= 137.75 hit, or 145.75 hit with light/wind/fire support. The steel greatlance has a better setup, because 157.75 hits a lot and 165.75 doesn't miss much. Bio could still screw with him, but whatever. With that 15 mt steel forge, he's looking at 39 mt if we round up, and with a 35% str growth and really slow leveling, that isn't going up any time soon. 39 mt fails to ORKO halbs as early as 3-8, some warriors in 3-10, some snipers in 3-10. This can be mitigated, of course, by Mia, Mist, Soren, Rhys, Heather, Brom, Mordecai, Boyd, but he basically requires the forge to kill stuff and Gatrie doesn't. Further, only Mordecai can keep up and only once he transforms. And he won't even have an A with Heather or Brom until 3-10 (40 mt from a B also fails to ORKO halbs in 3-8), or an A with Mordy until part 4, possibly.

So, given how he constantly needs to double and 20 enemies could break his only weapon that reliably kills stuff, he needs a fair number of forges or he won't ORKO stuff.

We already had Mia and Ike on the 1 range front, so let's look at 2 range.

Hand Axe Gatrie has 38 mt, not ORKOing everything, but at least knocking everything not a General down to easily killable range. Oscar on the other hand, has 30.75, lets round up to 31 mt. At least he is ORKOing mages that aren't druids or 3-11 wind sages. Oh yeah, that means he isn't even ORKOing every mage. And he leaves the rest of the enemies with a lot more HP than hand axe Gatrie does. Enough that many people don't OHKO, and since Mist and a Rolf in training don't double...

Fast forward to forges, and Gatrie has 43 mt, ORKOing everything not a general, and Oscar has 36 mt, again, only ORKOing mages and priests. And unlike Shinon, he doesn't even have doubling swordmasters to show for it.

Speedwing!Haar

In my other post I said that Haar is his best competition for the crown. Actually, I think I might have said only reasonable competition. Or words to that effect. I also said he still loses out.

So, with all the levels I'm giving everyone else, lets say Haar is --/15/1 after crowning and winging.

51.2 hp, 27.8 str, 6.2 mag, 28 skl, 25.2 spd, 14.8 lck, 27.6 def, 11.8 res.

Unless we brought a wing from the db and took up one of Ilyana's slots, Titania now no longer has a wing and Gatrie no longer has a crown. Haar gives us one unit doubling at the cost of 2. That ~28 str is good enough for the ORKOing of various halbs and warriors and snipers, but a .3 spd growth and slow leveling makes me seriously doubt he has any hope of getting the 26 speed needed for doubling 3-11 halbs and warriors, and half the 3-10 halbs and warriors.

He also has ~80 avo and is still 4HKOd by mages instead of Gatrie's 5HKO, the 28 mt mages leave him with ~3 HP, which is similar to what Gatrie has after 4 mages. He has a 3% chance of being critted by elthunder mages instead of 1.5%, and without nullify that is his chance to die. Pure waters will mitigate this, of course, but Gatrie doesn't need to spend a turn pure watering whenever he sees a thunder mage. On turn 2 or 3 I might let Haar attack a thunder sage, but not turn 8 or 9. Gatrie doesn't have to care.

Still, though, while Haar has less durability than Gatrie, I admit it isn't much less. His offence doesn't really lose much either, since 1 less str isn't really a big deal. The real problem is that if he takes a speedwing he takes one from Titania, and he then isn't too far from 24 speed, but Gatrie needs to promote before getting above 23 speed.

24 speed doubles snipers until 3-8 where it only doubles half, and it doubles a fair number of paladins and generals and sages and dragonmasters that 23 speed doesn't all the way to 3-E. If we give Haar the speedwing and give the crown to Gatrie, 2 people double a fair number of things more than if Gatrie gets nothing and Haar gets a speedwing and a crown.

Haar might like getting the crown, but Ike would probably appreciate the extra unit doubling that wouldn't be doubling otherwise.

Since Haar really does come in second for the crown, if he really wants one then the DB probably doesn't need two. Certainly not for 3-12 and 3-13. Just let Jill or Zihark hold onto it until Heather can relieve them of the weight of it in 3-7.

However, Haar is only viable if we have 2 speedwings. If we just have the one, then since speedwing Titania + crowned Gatrie has more doubling by our units than crowned speedwing Haar, it seems rather evident that when Ilyana is too full to take the speedwing to the GM's, Haar isn't even competition.

Rolf

Why can't he use the 3-11 crown? Can't he wait? He isn't likely reaching even level 10 until 3-7 or 3-8 anyway, not with his 28 mt enemy phase in which he is 3HKO if he's lucky. We are without a tier 3 guy in 3-4 and 3-5 and he isn't likely to reach his str cap (level 15) until 3-11, or his hp/spd cap (level 17) until 3-E, and I might be being generous with that. I think I promoted him in the base of 4-1 on Normal mode, so maybe on HM he can get the levels in the chapters I said. I raised Shinon in HM, not Rolf, so I wouldn't know. Say we crown him partway through 3-7 when he reached level 10.

--/10/1

43.65 hp, 25.75 str, 7.9 mag, 26.05 skl, 25.05 spd, 16.15 lck, 18.15 def, 14.8 res.

Level 13 shinon beats a lot of those, is two levels from that speed, and needs bexp at the right times to match the strength, and maybe a drop, but still, why did we crown someone to make him less good than Shinon is by now, and shinon still suffers from the whole sucky enemy phase thing. If we are raising Rolf at all, it is much better to try to fix his defence with a little bexp once or twice after capping if he gets enough cexp to make it cheap, or at least wait until the 3-11 crown so that he can grow his strength when he is actually making good exp. It'll save his endgame. Rolf is all about endgame. Crowning him too early means bad earlygame, mediocre midgame, bad endgame.

Tauroneo

I don't really want to do the facepalm thing because although it can be funny I think it is mean, but isn't the 3-6 crown and 3-12 crown enough for him? Do we have to give the 3-4 crown to Lethe so that Sothe can steal it from her in 3-6 so that Tauroneo can have 3 crowns from which to choose in 3-12? Even if we take my suggestion of taking the 3-6 crown from them, if Tauroneo really wants a crown in 3-12 there's one sitting there for him.

Um, the rest tomorrow?

[cheetah7071]

First off, sorry for the factual errors, it's been a while since I debated this game

Aran's level is pretty low. Only 13/0 at 1-7? That's only 6 levels for 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, and two parts of 1-6. I'd say 15/0 is a closer estimate.

And... iron lance? Are you kidding me? not even a regular steel that he can already use with no AS loss, let alone a forge that every DB unit you're using seriously should have?

So, with a +3 mt iron lance at 15/0...

28 HP, 26 att, 134.8 hit, 12.8 AS, 44.4 ao, 17.6 def, 5 res

level 13 was made forgetting chapter 1-6 was really two chapters. 14 or 15 is of course more reasonable adding that in.

Regardless of the weapon, Aran's offense isn't seriously outstripping Muarim's untransformed damage.

Muarim does have better stats, but the lack of player phase is definitely annoying (Aran can deal like 50% HP damage to an enemy every turn while Muarim's doing nothing), and he only has better stats because the enemies are hovering around 14 AS in 1-7. By 1-8 we have bandits who are hovering around 15-16 AS and double Muarim, and by 1-E we have guys like 16 AS archers that double Muarim easily.

Also, I seriously want to know what enemies are 3HKOing Aran in 1-E if he's 20/0. At that level with A Laura he has 30.5 HP and 22 def. You need 32 att to 3HKO or be a mage. The number of physical enemies that can 3HKO Aran in 1-E I can count on one hand.

That calculation forgot about supports. I retract it. Still worth noting that Muarim is only 3RKOed when untransformed, even if it doesn't stack up to Aran's 4RKOs. And using your number of 31 atk to 2RKO muarim, that's a grand total of 2 enemies in 1-E. Not even the boss does it.

So no, I would say an untransformed Muarim is overall worse than Aran in part 1. He is Nailah #2 when transformed though.

Fair enough The comparison wasn't intended to show untransformed Muarim was better than Aran (or I would have talked about Muarim's lack of player phase and 1-2 range more), but rather that he's comparable to Aran (though after supports come in, not as good) at tanking.

I thought you had to do no damage on the counter to build gauge? I know there was a lot of discussion about Vika in 1-8 about her gauge and how she had to do 0 damage to a bandit to increase her gauge (which was why they wanted this bandit on a thicket to give it +1 def).

Gah, forgot that. Still, finding one archer/mage/hand axe/whatever brings his transformation time down from 4 turns to 2, and finding a second is insta-transform. I recall 1-7 having some nice archers on ledges that won't be dead by the time Muarim untransforms the first time, and 1-E of course has both ledges and siege magic (I don't believe meteor is effective when untransformed, though correct me if I'm wrong). Muarim does have significant difficulty transforming the first time in 1-8, though, and may have to wait the full 4 turns. Popping a single olivi grass (one use out of the 24 you get in part one) isn't out of the question here. By the time he's untransforming, you'll have approached the thunder mages, who can give him the boost he needs to go back into facerape mode.

Edited July 9, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Jaybee]

Muarim does have significant difficulty transforming the first time in 1-8, though, and may have to wait the full 4 turns. Popping a single olivi grass (one use out of the 24 you get in part one) isn't out of the question here. By the time he's untransforming, you'll have approached the thunder mages, who can give him the boost he needs to go back into facerape mode.

I think there was a Hand Axe bandit reinforcement that comes quite early. Stick Muarim in range and bam! insta-transform.