Karel or Harken?

[dondon151]

Harken. He's better, easier to recruit, his map is better for tactics ranks, etc.

Karel/Harken isn't map dependent and Karel is arguably easier to recruit because you don't have to restrict yourself.

[Ercdouken]

Karel/Harken isn't map dependent and Karel is arguably easier to recruit because you don't have to restrict yourself.

Actually, it depends on the map. On Kenneth's path, he's easier to recruit since you can kill more than 2 promoted enemies to make him appear. On Jerme's map, you have to open 4 or so doors to make him appear, but the snow weather snows your units down and there's enemies in the way, which makes it harder to recruit him.

[Mekkah]

and makes Isadora awesome.

Isadora? Awesome?

Not really awesome, but there's something to say for a fast Dark/Fire support (full Avo and Crt). Of course, it's way too late to have a lot of impact.

Harken is better outside of HHM, and crushes Karel in HHM.

[riariadne]

Umm... wow... lots of Harken fans...

I'm on chapter 16E though, so Karel can still make a comeback! Also, I plan on abusing Raven, so that lowers Harkens standing a little... And I WILL use Dart, making Karel a bit more likely... But the Brave Sword... SO TEMPTING!

5 Karel, 12 Harken, 3 don't care, and 2 'depends'. Hmmm... my initial standing was K50%/H50% (only because of the bravesword) but my standing now is K30%/H60%/Random Pick 10%.

[Mekkah]

Also, I plan on abusing Raven, so that lowers Harkens standing a little...

It doesn't. Just because Raven is on the team doesn't make Harken any less awesome. If Raven didn't exist, Harken's stats would be just the same.

[riariadne]

Yeah, but Raven's epicness gives him a spot on my team, while I still need a swordsmaster and my Guy has bizarre stats.

[Mekkah]

You don't need a Swordmaster.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I've already made a topic like this 2 times already and this has already been proven ages ago here and other boards. Harken is better in more ways than one. Karel is possibly the worst unit of the game.

[Rei Rei]

Don't you need Karel to get Karla, besides a level 5 Warrior Bartre?

[Intoner Two]

Don't you need Karel to get Karla, besides a level 5 Warrior Bartre?

Nope, just that you'll miss one of her supports if that matters to you

[Rei Rei]

Ahh. Then screw Karel, Harken is better with his Brave Sword. And easier to get.

[dondon151]

Actually, it depends on the map. On Kenneth's path, he's easier to recruit since you can kill more than 2 promoted enemies to make him appear. On Jerme's map, you have to open 4 or so doors to make him appear, but the snow weather snows your units down and there's enemies in the way, which makes it harder to recruit him.

In a ranked run, you're moving as fast and as efficiently as possible, which means that opening 4 doors by turn 10 is feasible and probably likely.

[Florete]

I've already made a topic like this 2 times already and this has already been proven ages ago here and other boards. Harken is better in more ways than one. Karel is possibly the worst unit of the game.

Those topics are dead and we're not other boards. Stop complaining.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I only said that this is already been proven and dealt with. There's really no point of making a topic for who is better. Unless you compare them by characters I'd go for Karel over Harken.

[Balcerzak]

Karel sucks, Harken doesn't. Harken has actual supports, Karel has none. Harken comes with the Brave Sword, Karel comes with a Wo Dao, which sucks.

The only thing you could have against Harken is his making you wait 8~ turns before you kill a few promoted enemies or open a few doors.

Which is in fact a fatal flaw. If I recall correctly, that's the reason I never get Harken, except on the PT I did where I went out of my way to get him so as to complete 100% supports.

Forcing you to avoid killing promoted enemies = major fail. Being a useful combat character, coming late, is only really useful if you like using heroes, or find yourself strapped for funds and not confident in your ability to spend promotion items on your early/mid game team members, in which case either Karel or Harken will be able to fill a passable role of earning XP, and supplementing your A-team in maps with large unit allowances. Aside from that, they almost always will be found riding the bench, according to my style of play at least.

The doors requirement is a lot more forgiving, as that's actually somewhat biased against Karel, because IIRC blitzing to 5 doors is very difficult without a collection of door keys, but I usually never make it to Jerme's map anyway, and personally prefer Kenneth's map in terms of requirements.

As far as special weapons, I never seem to use either anyway, as I usually go off of a diet of pure Iron, with the occasional Killer or Reaver weapons. Silver, Brave, etc. as just too expensive, or special that I seem to have a hard time justifying their use to myself, though this is probably just a personal quirk.

[Edorian]

Actually, it depends on the map. On Kenneth's path, he's easier to recruit since you can kill more than 2 promoted enemies to make him appear. On Jerme's map, you have to open 4 or so doors to make him appear, but the snow weather snows your units down and there's enemies in the way, which makes it harder to recruit him.

Well yes it is easier to get Harken in Jerme's map if you are on hardermodes, but in Eliwood's story (and if he is in Normal) it is not that difficult to get 4 doors open (well it kinda depends on the units he is using). Still, in Jerme's map is much easier to actually choose which one you want to recruit than in Kenneth's. I liked Jerme's map better but the more I think about it the more I think that Kenneth's is actually better because snow affects you less. Once you enter the "castle" you don't have to worry about snow.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Edorian

[riariadne]

Honestly, I just wanna know who's better for someone on their first playthrough.

And yes, I need a swordsmaster. Swordsmasters are win.

[Rei Rei]

Honestly, I just wanna know who's better for someone on their first playthrough.

Harken

And yes, I need a swordsmaster. Swordsmasters are win.

Train guy, then.

He's the best swordmaster in the game, although that's not really saying much.

[_____]

Honestly, I just wanna know who's better for someone on their first playthrough.

And yes, I need a swordsmaster. Swordsmasters are win.

Harken is ALWAYS better. It doesn't matter what playthrough you're doing, and you obviously don't care much about ranks, so that gives him ANOTHER edge.

No, you don't. Guy is the only good Swordmaster in this game, while the rest fail miserably.

[Mekkah]

And yes, I need a swordsmaster. Swordsmasters are win.

Well, do whatever you want, but unless you feel like using Guy, you're going to have to use an inferior unit.

[Vykan12]

All this talk of using Harken just to get the brave sword is a bit odd. IMO, Harken has some pretty ridiculous stats considering his base level, I consider him to be a fighter version of Pent in many respects. Just compare Harken to Raven, the best character on HHM (though I'm too lazy to factor in HHM bonus into the comparison, especially when both get it so it'll probably cancel out more or less).

Raven lv 20/3 (A Lucius, B Priscilla): 43 hp, 19 str, 20 skl, 22 spd, 15 def, 6 res, 8 luck, 9 con, 22 crit, 64 avo

Harken lv 20/8: 38 hp, 21 str, 20 skl, 17 spd, 15 def, 10 res, 12 luck, 11 con, 10 crit, 46 avo

Harken wins +2 str, +4 res and +2 con while Raven wins +5 hp, +5 spd and 18 avo. I'd say Raven has better durability and is winning offence mainly because of spd, but Harken's con win means that the spd gap isn't so large when both are wielding heavier weapons like steel swords or axes. They're pretty comparable, which is saying a lot for Harken, and he hasn't even been given any supports yet.

Fast forward a bit

Raven lv 20/12 (A Lucius, B Priscilla): 51 hp, 24 str, 23 skl, 25 spd, 18 def, 7 res, 11 luck, 9 con, 23 crit, 73 avo

Harken lv 20/15 (A Isadora, B Lowen): 43 hp, 26 str, 22 skl, 20 spd, 17 def, 12 res, 13 luck, 11 con, 23 crit, 78 avo

Durability is pretty arguable now (8 hp and 1 def vs 5 res and 5 avo) and Harken still wins raw damage, though the spd gap between them has increased to 5. Nevertheless, you could almost call this a tie, and being tied to HHM Raven = incredible in my book. Also, if you account for HHM bonuses, Harken won't have any trouble doubling whereas Raven's advantage would be mostly overkill, and the gap really is 2-3 only when both wield heavy weapons.

So yeah, I really can't understand how people can only talk about Harken as though he's only good for the weapon he brings. He may join late but also comes more or less RNG proof all the while being amongst one of your best units, making him very low maintenance, useful for his playing time and easily integratable into an endgame team.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Vykan12

[Lord Raven]

20/3 Raven's Strength on HHM is only like one point lower than 20/8 Harken's...

[dondon151]

Which is in fact a fatal flaw. If I recall correctly, that's the reason I never get Harken, except on the PT I did where I went out of my way to get him so as to complete 100% supports.

Forcing you to avoid killing promoted enemies = major fail. Being a useful combat character, coming late, is only really useful if you like using heroes, or find yourself strapped for funds and not confident in your ability to spend promotion items on your early/mid game team members, in which case either Karel or Harken will be able to fill a passable role of earning XP, and supplementing your A-team in maps with large unit allowances. Aside from that, they almost always will be found riding the bench, according to my style of play at least.

You can kill promoted enemies after turn 10, and it's not like a couple of promoted enemies will destroy your EXP rank... I'd rather get Harken just for his greater offensive contributions despite having to restrict my play for a couple of turns. It's a point against him, but definitely not a great one.

[Super Mecha Death Christ]

Repeat after me, kids: Hard Mode Harken Normal Mode Karel.

[Edorian]

Haaaard mode Haaaarken Noooormal mode Kaaaarel

yeah this last run I played I had Karel and even though he is not bad, he isnt good either, Harken FTW (still I like Karel's personality way more than Harken's)