Soren vs. Micaiah

[Liz]

If Soren and Micaiah went to war, and had equal soldiers, weapons, money, etc., and the outcome of the war depended on the military strategy and skill in conducting the war, who do you believe would be the victor, Micaiah or Soren?

[Mufasa]

Soren for sure.

His tactical prowess is way better than Micaiahs.

[Killer Poleax]

Soren cause eventually Micaiah would grow tired and start "losing" her powers. Soren's plans have never failed and Micaiah's fail several times in the game.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Soren..hes alot smarter and not so compassionate...

[Florete]

Micaiah because she would be more dedicated. Soren would get pissed off by his troops and abandon them.

[Liz]

then again, Micaiah's troops would probably have a much higher morale, considering that they believe they are fighting for some divine being which, in a way, they are

[Judge Judy]

Micaiah because she would be more dedicated. Soren would get pissed off by his troops and abandon them.

This!

Second Micaiah would be able to forsee Soren plans.

[Intoner Two]

Micaiah because she would be more dedicated. Soren would get pissed off by his troops and abandon them.

stalemate because I love them both sooo much and can't decide between them >_<

I doubt he would abandon them...my money would say that he probably starts killing the slackers himself so...they're going to fight pretty hard...who knows? it'll be close although Micaiah might be in trouble if it comes down to the two of them being the only units left -even then it's gonna be close, either's mastery skill could kick in yeah- ...all that's certain is that the whole thing would be exciting to watch ;)

[Killer Poleax]

Soren's not going to abandon anyone as long as Ike is on his side.

[Judge Judy]

Soren's not going to abandon anyone as long as Ike is on his side.

Yeah but in this case Ike is not on his side. =/

[Father Wood]

A war over who's the next ruler of Deain?

I'd say Soren. He's got the GM's on his side.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Soren would win. The morale Micaiah's units are getting isn't much compared to Soren's tactical prowess. Besides, knowing that your tactician was the one who helped win the Mad King's War should be greater morale than thinking you're fighting for some divine being >_>... but alas, stupidity strikes =\

[Penitent]

Soren would win. The morale Micaiah's units are getting isn't much compared to Soren's tactical prowess. Besides, knowing that your tactician was the one who helped win the Mad King's War should be greater morale than thinking you're fighting for some divine being >_>... but alas, stupidity strikes =\

Morale is a massive boon not to be underestimated. Most battles, if not all, are not won by slaughtering every last man - they're won by forcing the enemy to retreat or flee, particularly with those great strategies that Soren is so renowned for. Having that much faith in your leader, having that much morale, is a dent in anyone's plans, and pretty much denies the chance for shock attacks, hit-and-run, or outnumbering your opponent, to hold their optimum effect, if any. It also improves their fighting status, giving the average soldier a much better chance against an opposing foe who hasn't received superior training.

Not to mention that while Soren may be a tactician, he is definitely no leader. With the exception of Ike, he generally loathes people. Assuming he's in charge, then he will lack the conviction to inspire his troops.

The biggest disadvantage I can think of working against Micaiah may be her own compassion - it's not impossible for her to back out of a battle so some more of her troops could live when she really needs to stand her ground.

It's rather circumstantial. Assuming they both have relatively even supplies and fighting power, it wouldn't be easy to call. We can establish that Micaiah herself is no tactical slouch with or without her powers - case in point, 3-12,

where she cripples presumably two thirds of a massive army with a comparatively smaller force in a single ambush

so Soren's advantages there are far from guaranteed.

Soren would win. The morale Micaiah's units are getting isn't much compared to Soren's tactical prowess. Besides, knowing that your tactician was the one who helped win the Mad King's War should be greater morale than thinking you're fighting for some divine being

Why would that be now? :P You're a common-day soldier, you're perfectly expendable to a master tactician. Who's to say you're anything other but the sacrificial bait in that butthole's scheme and he just sent you to die? Doesn't sound like someone I'd want to fight for, that's for sure.

Soren cause eventually Micaiah would grow tired and start "losing" her powers. Soren's plans have never failed and Micaiah's fail several times in the game.

If you're talking about 3-6, that's because she was unprepared and out of the loop on what strategies the laguz used. It's not a mistake she repeated.

And come on, for the entirety she was up against Ike. MOTHER-LOVING IKE.

Who is apparently not in this war this time.

All in all I think the two are close as strategists, with Soren having an advantage. But as a leader Micaiah is beyond him. Unless Soren found a willing, charismatic figurehead then he'd be bummed. I think an important factor would be who which group has on their side; the Dawn Brigade will fight for Micaiah without hesitation, as would Fiona and Tauroneo. The Greil Mercenaries may be sceptical to helping Soren based on motive; unless he were sufficiently justified, they might either help or back out.

EDIT: Actually, never mind. It'd be better if it were strictly Soren vs. Micaiah, I suppose.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Penitent

[BlueRose95]

Well They are pretty both equal in a way

Soren is REALLY skillful tactician who designed all battle plan in Ashnard's war and Alliance Laguz (made them win (expect one but It was Skimir's fault)) BUT I doubt he'll use his brain if Ike don't any merits in this ! And In my point of view he lacks somes littles emotions that would be handful (Greil" You would let Crimea fails ?" S: "Yes")

Micaiah is not a good tactician, she fails and goes to Soren trap many times >_> but her emotions would give the troop a highter morale

Greil mercenaries FTW !

Edited January 5, 2009 by BlueRose95

[Tamara]

This makes me want to hack them into Advance Wars... (not that I have enough skills for something like that, but still...)

I agree with Penitent. Micaiah has one huge advantage and that's that the common soldier can put her on a pedestal. She's the perfect figurehead. Soren is not a people's person at all. I'd be surprised if the random soldiers who fought in the wars even knew his name or face. Ike was always the leader, not Soren. The only soldiers he could rally are rabid fangirls. Dangerous, but not very useful in a war. And yes, Micaiah is far from an idiot. She may not be as skilled as Soren, but she comes of with decent strategies. Frankly, I think Micaiah will have the advantage. Coming up with a brilliant plan is one thing, but getting your troops to execute said plan is a whole other matter.

[Penitent]

Micaiah is not a good tactician, she fails and goes to Soren trap many times >_>

Um, what times?

There was 3-7, and that's the only time she's outwitted; which wasn't her fault at all. Begnion should have let Daein in on the loop on how the laguz fought and their past tactics, which they didn't. Besides, she had no clue, indication or real way of knowing that it was Soren and not a laguz commander who was giving the Alliance their plans. Other than that, there wasn't any time she was actually outwitted.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Penitent

[Super Mecha Death Christ]

First of all, this is bullshit. We all know Zhuge Liang would beat both of them combined.

Ok, Soren could probably mop the floor with Micaiah.

[Seph]

When it says "equal soldiers" I think that morale isn't factored, because they're equal. If morale was factored, then they wouldn't be equal. Willpower WILL make a person stronger.

Plus, it never stated what kind of soldiers. Are you really sure they'll worship her?

If this is the case, Soren by a landslide.

Yeah, Micaiah can foresee. How well can she react to it? I'm sure Soren will take that in mind.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Julius

[Penitent]

When it says "equal soldiers" I think that morale isn't factored, because they're equal. If morale was factored, then they wouldn't be equal. Willpower WILL make a person stronger.

Plus, it never stated what kind of soldiers. Are you really sure they'll worship her?

Hold on, so you're saying that Micaiah's leadership charisma can't count because it'd be unfair, but Soren's tactical skill is perfectly fine? That's a wee bit ridiculous, don't you think?

By "equal", the first logical impression is that neither army's better trained or numerically superior. Since we're comparing the two as military leaders, then the ideal scenario for comparing the two is one where both armies are even/possess different advantages that break into a stalemate, so that the leaders in question will make a difference.

As for the soldiers under Micaiah's command, why wouldn't they have faith in her?

Yeah, Micaiah can foresee. How well can she react to it? I'm sure Soren will take that in mind.

She can react pretty well to her own power, if experience is anything to go by. It'd be interesting to see how Soren can take it in mind; what if the best plan possible for him happens to be the one Micaiah foresees? Does it become a game of who psyches out who?

First of all, this is bullshit. We all know Zhuge Liang would beat both of them combined.

I'd back Erwin Rommel if he were an option. He did some dang good work on the Africa front.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Penitent

[Seph]

Hold on, so you're saying that Micaiah's leadership charisma can't count because it'd be unfair, but Soren's tactical skill is perfectly fine? That's a wee bit ridiculous, don't you think?

Where did you get that idea from? Soren's tactical skill doesn't improve ones battle skill. It's like saying Soren's tactics will improve Ike's power in battle. Willpower, however, does.

By "equal", the first logical impression is that neither army's better trained or numerically superior. Since we're comparing the two as military leaders, then the ideal scenario for comparing the two is one where both armies are even/possess different advantages that break into a stalemate, so that the leaders in question will make a difference.

By equal, we mean that they're equal in power.

equal soldiers

This must mean that they're equal in power. Consider the soldiers of Daein in FE10, now. They were stronger than the ones in FE9, right? I'm not saying this on personal opinion, I'm saying this on what was said in the game. Right after the chapter with the bridge I believe. This was simply because of willpower. They grew stronger because of willpower. So now, the soldiers of Micaiah are stronger than the soldiers of Soren. Equal, you think? Nope. Micaiah's soldiers are stronger than Soren's so that's contradicting the first sentence.

As for the soldiers under Micaiah's command, why wouldn't they have faith in her?

Say they're the soldiers of Crimea or Begnion. What do you think now? The main reason the soldiers in Daein love her so is because she saved their country. That is the reason why they're fanatics. Not because of her powers. They would, but even if I'm wrong, it would never, ever be as much as in Daein.

Plus, why wouldn't they have faith in Soren? I'm sure the people would know about his skills and have great faith in him also.

She can react pretty well to her own power, if experience is anything to go by. It'd be interesting to see how Soren can take it in mind; what if the best plan possible for him happens to be the one Micaiah foresees? Does it become a game of who psyches out who?

I'm actually not Soren, like many other people, so there's no way I can comment on this. The best plan possible however would be one in which he'd minimize the losses in the event of a prediction and act accordingly.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Julius

[Intoner Two]

I'd say Soren. He's got the GM's on his side.

I swear when I read GM I read it as 'gamemasters' lol

First of all, this is bullshit. We all know Zhuge Liang would beat both of them combined.

this is a pretty valid point after all he couldn't even be beaten at Wu Zhang, Sima Yi had to wait for his death lol, therefore the question is...who's going to die first?? -at least they both can kind of defend themselves against the common soldiers- also I think we were supposed to assume that the armies did not receive aid from any other RD player character/boss?

[Legault]

Soren takes the field and reaps Micaiah really badly.

Winner: Soren

[Seph]

Yeah, Micaiah would liek get doubled by everything.

Soren himself could come to the battlefield and kick some ass.

[Tamara]

Where did you get that idea from? Soren's tactical skill doesn't improve ones battle skill. It's like saying Soren's tactics will improve Ike's power in battle. Willpower, however, does.

Soren's tactical skills influence the outcome, just like Micaiah's charisma. Both armies start out equal in power, but Micaiah's leadership gives morale a boost. Soren sucks at motivating his troops, but he is likely to have superior strategies.

Plus, why wouldn't they have faith in Soren? I'm sure the people would know about his skills and have great faith in him also.

Because he's a loner who only has faith in his own skills (and Ike)? Seriously, Soren is not leader material. He'll manage, but he won't do a great job. And I don't think many people know him from the PoR and RD wars, because he never took the spotlight like Ike or Micaiah did.

[Seph]

Soren's tactical skills influence the outcome, just like Micaiah's charisma. Both armies start out equal in power, but Micaiah's leadership gives morale a boost. Soren sucks at motivating his troops, but he is likely to have superior strategies.

Soren's tactical skills still have nothing to do with the battle skill.

What?

Say they're the soldiers of Crimea or Begnion. What do you think now? The main reason the soldiers in Daein love her so is because she saved their country. That is the reason why they're fanatics. Not because of her powers. They would, but even if I'm wrong, it would never, ever be as much as in Daein.

Plus, why wouldn't they have faith in Soren? I'm sure the people would know about his skills and have great faith in him also.

Plus, saying that the soldiers aren't equal during the time of battle (the most important) pretty much contradicts what the thing said. Even if they were stronger, it wouldn't be a much of a difference for the reasons above.

Because he's a loner who only has faith in his own skills (and Ike)? Seriously, Soren is not leader material. He'll manage, but he won't do a great job. And I don't think many people know him from the PoR and RD wars, because he never took the spotlight like Ike or Micaiah did.

First off, just because he's a loner doesn't mean that they'll have a low opinion of him. Sure, he's not leader material, but just like Micaiah, they're going to have faith in him. They're supposed to know what he's done, why would someone like Soren be in charge of an army without anyone knowing what he did? Not every single detail is mentioned in the game and assumptions should be cut to as low as possible. If we go along by assuming, we can assume that his story was told by Skrimir, which was told to Gallia, which got the attention of the laguz, and so on. Assuming is going to get us nowhere.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Julius