Tier list!!!

[dondon151]

I'm aware of their starting levels. What I'm wondering is if the game autolevels them or gives them set stats. For example, Kent is L1 in Lyn's story with certain stats, and has a L5 default return in Hector Mode. Does the game autolevel Kent to L5, taking his L1 base stats and adding four level-ups using the RNG, or does he always receive the stats posted here? The page right now suggests the latter.

I am 90% sure it is the latter. Confirmation would be good, however...

I don't think this is a very good argument to make for a tier list about usefulness. Nonetheless, it can be argued as part of the story. Ch7 does show how Lyn met Ninian and Nils, as well as strengthen Eliwood's relation to Ninian. It involves the Black Fang, and Ursula even makes a short appearance in 7x. And then it explains how Lyn knows all these characters such as Erk, Serra, Lucius and Matthew (they have talk conversations in Noble Lady, or in the case of the monk, Whereabouts Unknown).

I wasn't saying anything about usefulness. And even if it's a small part of the story, it's a totally unnecessary one - Lyn's talk conversations in chapter 16 and 17 might as well not exist, as far as the story goes. The Black Fang also needs no introduction in EM or HM; LM is like... a redundant exposition.

If the tutorial chapters are considered in FEDS, however, then there isn't much reason for LM not to be considered here. I think I'll just be quiet about this subject now.

The thing is, you CAN'T support on Lyn's mode.

k, that's what I thought for a moment. The fact remains, however, that EliwoodxLowen is a medium-fast support and that Kent and Sain can get to C in nearly half as many turns as Eliwood and Lowen, rendering Lowen's advantage in that department almost null. KentxSain B also takes 13 less turns than EliwoodxLowen B.

No support gives you nothing. You get at least 1 bonus from every support, unless I am sadly mistaken, which I don't think I am.

FirexIce C: Atk +0.5, Def +0.5, Hit +5.0, Avo +5.0, Crt +2.5, CEv +2.5.

The decimals all round down. MarcusxLowen C gives +5 Hit and Avo and +2 Crt and CEv. That's practically nothing.

ps: disabling emoticons prevents dumb shit from happening.

Edited January 12, 2009 by dondon151

[_____]

EliwoodxLowen actually isn't that fast. They may have a C by chapter 16 (being extremely generous), but Eliwood needs to stick next to Lowen for 31 turns before that happens (and an additional 40 turns for a B). KentxSain C takes only 17 turns and another 27 for B - assuming that LM is played, they may already have a C support when they join (unless you can't support in LM for some reason).

Furthermore, wind is only a bad affinity for units like Lyn whose durability is completely reliant on avo. KentxSain gives a full attack bonus and a half crit bonus, which is what Kent wants: improving his offense.

Now, LowenxMarcus, on the other hand, is quite fast... but a C gives you literally nothing.

By quick, I really meant that it wasn't extremely sluggish. I'm not going to deny that Sain and Kent can get their support up a bit quicker than Lowen's.

I will argue that Lowen gets much more useful bonuses, though. Lowen also gets full Attack and half crit from his FireXAnima support, but he also gets full avoid from it, so he's adding to his already great durability, trouncing Kent in the avoid department once again and that > lolcritevade.

[dondon151]

More useful bonuses is true, but I wouldn't qualify 8 avo as "trouncing" >.>

[Don Draper]

Your support argument makes no sense. Lowen and Eliwood have 5 chapters to build up their support before Kent and Sain come, meaning they'll get their B way before.

Also Tino, why do you disagree with the Dorcas/Bartre rankings? Dorcas is good earlygame, but his AS is absolutely terrible. Same with Bartre's starting, 3 AS

Edited January 13, 2009 by IOS

[dondon151]

Your support argument makes no sense. Lowen and Eliwood have 5 chapters to build up their support before Kent and Sain come, meaning they'll get their B way before.

I'd argue that even an EliwoodxLowen C is generous for chapter 16 (what mode are we on? I'm going to assume HHM). The turn requirement for the 5 chapters that Eliwood and Lowen have before Kent and Sain join is 38 - not counting the 0-turn requirement for chapter 15, which automatically adds 8 turns... so let's say that the player spends 45 turns completing those chapters, which basically amounts to a 15-turn deficit that early in the game. Of those 45 turns, Lowen has to spend 31 adjacent to Eliwood. On 13x and 15 this is easy, as the objective is to defend, so we'll give them 14 turns. On 12, 13 and 14, where the objective is to rout/seize, Eliwood and Lowen must be glued together for 17 turns, but Lowen wants to use his horse.

So by the time Kent and Sain join, Eliwood and Lowen might not even have a C. They will very likely get their C before Kent and Sain do, but KentxSain C is only 17 turns, easily achievable before chapter 17x. After that, it's another 40 turns for Eliwood and Lowen, but only 27 for Kent and Sain. Compounded with the fact that Kent and Sain have the same movement range and will therefore stick together far more often than Eliwood and Lowen, it's very possible that KentxSain B happens before EliwoodxLowen B.

[_____]

More useful bonuses is true, but I wouldn't qualify 8 avo as "trouncing" >.>

Semantics.

[Mekkah]

If the tutorial chapters are considered in FEDS, however, then there isn't much reason for LM not to be considered here.

Well, I'd say the difference is that you cannot skip the FEDS prologue chapters on Normal Mode, but you can start EM/HM on your own. Anyway, this is more of a matter of preference methinks - for now I'd say this tier list (or this topic, considering it has 1298213 lists) does assume LHM, but you're obviously free to make one that doesn't. It'd probably just be Lyn Mode characters moving down, and probably Geitz as well, as you 'd need to spend tons of babying on Lyn just to maybe scrape it to his map, meaning positives brought by Geitz are diminished by the negatives required to recruit him. Of course, I recall a good argument by Vykan saying difficulty of recruitment shouldn't be factored in...

Also, I didn't notice earlier, but lol ENM tier list. That pretty much comes down to everyone one-rounding everything after one or two levle-ups.

[Vykan12]

Well, I'd say the difference is that you cannot skip the FEDS prologue chapters on Normal Mode, but you can start EM/HM on your own. Anyway, this is more of a matter of preference methinks - for now I'd say this tier list (or this topic, considering it has 1298213 lists) does assume LHM, but you're obviously free to make one that doesn't.

True, though there exists a conflict when you consider efficiency. On the one hand, the TP gets a red orb (I think) from S ranking Lyn mode along with several better developed characters. On the other hand, the TP is essentially playing 10 avoidable chapters, which is increasing playtime significantly. I think the best route would be just to consider both possibilities in a comparison.

Eg/ Suppose Kent is about tied with Lowen in HHM but beats him when adding in LHM. Since Kent has one outcome where he is superior, he thus emerges higher on the list.

Of course, things get complicated when you consider a character slightly beating another in HHM but then slightly losing when LHM is added in, since the result would be roughly a tie. Though, no one ever said tiering were easy, otherwise we wouldn’t be having these discussions 5 or so years later :P

It'd probably just be Lyn Mode characters moving down, and probably Geitz as well, as you 'd need to spend tons of babying on Lyn just to maybe scrape it to his map, meaning positives brought by Geitz are diminished by the negatives required to recruit him.

Huh? The requirement to meet Geitz is 50 combined level-ups between Hector, Eliwood and Lyn. That means you could train all 3 characters and have them each at lv 16-17 or train 2 of them to lv 20 and have the third member used as a filler to reach lv 10. That doesn’t sound particularly difficult. If anything, Wallace gets punished for forcing you to have under-developped lords, though I guess benching one of Eliwood/Lyn isn’t too unrealistic.

Of course, I recall a good argument by Vykan saying difficulty of recruitment shouldn't be factored in...

Nah, probably something arbitrary like only counting a unit’s performance when they’re “blue”. Or maybe I used the example of FE9 Stefan being bottom tier because he’s pretty impossible to recruit without a treasure map, or how considering character recruitment was similar to considering the weapon they brought as a positive.

Also, I didn't notice earlier, but lol ENM tier list. That pretty much comes down to everyone one-rounding everything after one or two levle-ups.

Aren’t you the one who said game difficulty doesn’t make a difference in a tier argument? I think you pulled that card several times in the Sacred Stones tier list.

[Mekkah]

True, though there exists a conflict when you consider efficiency. On the one hand, the TP gets a red orb (I think) from S ranking Lyn mode along with several better developed characters. On the other hand, the TP is essentially playing 10 avoidable chapters, which is increasing playtime significantly. I think the best route would be just to consider both possibilities in a comparison.

Well, they are avoidable chapters, but it's as if you're saying that playing the game is a negative thing for the tiers. Hypothetically, let's say Ch11 is skippable. Would you do it? On one hand, it's more work, but you also get some items and higher levels from them. This slipperly slope could continue until we're at the final chapter where I ask you if you want to play Part 1 or would just like to Luna the Fire Dragon into oblivion right away.

"More time" can even be argued on being a somewhat flawed argument on a small scale. I'm ready to seize the map, but I can let Serra heal one of my characters, and let Kent kill one more enemy. Do I? Takes more time, but also get more EXP!

I see where you're coming from though, but for simplicity's sake I would prefer to simply keep a tier list where it is assumed that you are playing Lyn Mode, and if somewhere in eternity someone feels like debating some kind of average between "LHM is played" and "LHM is not played" then that can be done.

Huh? The requirement to meet Geitz is 50 combined level-ups between Hector, Eliwood and Lyn. That means you could train all 3 characters and have them each at lv 16-17 or train 2 of them to lv 20 and have the third member used as a filler to reach lv 10. That doesn’t sound particularly difficult. If anything, Wallace gets punished for forcing you to have under-developped lords, though I guess benching one of Eliwood/Lyn isn’t too unrealistic.

It doesn't seem so bad early on, but when you have to juggle between pretty much every single unit you have to keep EXP rank on your favor AND when you consider that enemies in this game are severely underleveled, it gets difficult. A 14/0 Lyn/Hector/Eliwood gains 8 exp for both weakening and killing a 7/0 enemy. That's killing 12-13 enemies just to gain one level-up. And Lyn can be argued as not really a positive contribution to your rankings either way, due to her lame durability.

To me, the main penalty for Wallace is based on him blocking you from getting Geitz, in the same way that people throw down Karel down their lists because you cannot obtain Harken if you use him.

Nah, probably something arbitrary like only counting a unit’s performance when they’re “blue”. Or maybe I used the example of FE9 Stefan being bottom tier because he’s pretty impossible to recruit without a treasure map, or how considering character recruitment was similar to considering the weapon they brought as a positive.

I was talking about how recruiting Lehran required you to play 3-7 in a rather ridiculous way only to get one short chapter of healing in return, and you brought up Stefan and Aran not being penalized for their rather awkward recruitions, yeah. I kind of agree with "only when they're blue", unless the requirement to get those characters can be argued as hurting your rankings to make a difference. I mean, Guy isn't going to get lowered just because Matthew has to find his way in there, but if we were talking about a Thracia unranked tier list where Xavier was being debated, I would say recruiting Xavier definitely hurt your efficiency. For Xavier's blue performance to be judged, he has to be recruited, when that map could have been played in a much easier way, and the other rewards for recruiting him are not making up for it in the least (two Master weapons, and the Member Card if you go out of your way even more).

Aren’t you the one who said game difficulty doesn’t make a difference in a tier argument? I think you pulled that card several times in the Sacred Stones tier list.

Sure, it makes the game's characters still rankable. There's just very little difference between them (even in SS, there's vast enough differences in performance). "Hey look, Oswin can take a million enemy assaults without dying" "That's awesome, but so can Sain, and he's doubling" "Yeah well so is Oswin!". It pretty much comes down to nitpicking earlygame performance (when not everyone one-rounds yet), EXP rank (both healers to the top, probably) and availability I guess...even giving support bonuses isn't really worth anything.

[riariadne]

Also, my list includes Lyn Mode. Ignoring it would be stupid but its weighed to make 2 Lyn chapters = 1 Eliwood chapter in importance.

Also, I'm changing my list quite a bit. It needs fixing =D

[Vykan12]

Well, they are avoidable chapters, but it's as if you're saying that playing the game is a negative thing for the tiers. Hypothetically, let's say Ch11 is skippable. Would you do it? On one hand, it's more work, but you also get some items and higher levels from them. This slipperly slope could continue until we're at the final chapter where I ask you if you want to play Part 1 or would just like to Luna the Fire Dragon into oblivion right away.

Again, it’s a weighed decision. If the player feels the need for extra weapons and items, then sure, playing an optional chapter is ideal. On the other hand, if the gains from beating an optional chapter are at best trivial, then there’s no point in wasting your time. I’m not sure if all the gaidens need to be beaten for S ranking, but if they’re not, do you see any reason a player should waste a bunch of turns levelling Nils just to get 19x and 19xx?

Now, I suppose you do want to vouch for as many levels as you can in order to be able to meet all your S rank criterion (exp rank aside) with some breathing room, so I can see a strong case for Lyn mode inclusion.

"More time" can even be argued on being a somewhat flawed argument on a small scale. I'm ready to seize the map, but I can let Serra heal one of my characters, and let Kent kill one more enemy. Do I? Takes more time, but also get more EXP!

By time I mean turn count only. There’s no value in how fast a player can move a cursor or perform trades in regards to comparing the merit of 2 units.

It doesn't seem so bad early on, but when you have to juggle between pretty much every single unit you have to keep EXP rank on your favor AND when you consider that enemies in this game are severely underleveled, it gets difficult. A 14/0 Lyn/Hector/Eliwood gains 8 exp for both weakening and killing a 7/0 enemy. That's killing 12-13 enemies just to gain one level-up. And Lyn can be argued as not really a positive contribution to your rankings either way, due to her lame durability.

I can’t say much in regards to enemy levels (I’m only on chp 19 in HHM) but if Eliwood/Hector get stuck on lv 14-15, just give them a boss kill or use the arena (assuming everyone else is working towards beating the chapter efficiently).

To me, the main penalty for Wallace is based on him blocking you from getting Geitz, in the same way that people throw down Karel down their lists because you cannot obtain Harken if you use him.

I would contend that if Geitz weren’t going to be in play, then the effect is nonexistent (aside from losing a killer axe), and Geitz is only slightly above average, though Wallace sucks either way.

I’d say the same in regards to Harken, Karel’s negative impact on the team is the difference between a brave sword and a wo dao, which Reikken argued on gamefaqs quite convincingly to be rather small, and I don’t think the difference between Karel and Harken’s performance is really that large just based on looking at their averages. And again, if Harken isn’t being used, Karel’s not going to be punished for it.

All to say, Geitz vs Wallace and Harken vs Karel isn’t quite the same thing as Sety vs Cyas where you’re obviously losing out if you take the latter option. Though, even then, they have the same staff rank, so all you’re losing out on is the offensive production of holsety, but having great offence in that game isn’t difficult because of the counter critical coefficient system.

Tl;dr I can’t think of any A vs B recruitment options where the inferior option is hurting you significantly just from the act of forcing a superior character to not be on the team. Probably a more appropriate argument for moving Karel up and not for discussing to Lyn or not to Lyn.

Anyway, I agree with everything else you said, so no need to quote everything.

[Vykan12]

Also, my list includes Lyn Mode. Ignoring it would be stupid but its weighed to make 2 Lyn chapters = 1 Eliwood chapter in importance.

That's rather arbitrary. Shouldn't the weight of a chapter depend on the number of enemies, the size of the map and the difficulty, among other factors? You can't possibly equate Lyn's prologue chapter to chapters 8-10.

[Mekkah]

Again, it’s a weighed decision. If the player feels the need for extra weapons and items, then sure, playing an optional chapter is ideal. On the other hand, if the gains from beating an optional chapter are at best trivial, then there’s no point in wasting your time. I’m not sure if all the gaidens need to be beaten for S ranking, but if they’re not, do you see any reason a player should waste a bunch of turns levelling Nils just to get 19x and 19xx?

I agree. And no, you do not really "have to" go to gaidens to S-rank per definition, but they are usually so beneficial that you should anyway.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe7/rank2.html

13x gives you your first portion of fluid gold, so it's well worth the enormous trouble of beating it without feeding everything to Marcus. And at worst it adds one turn to your tactics rank, and that's only if you don't beat Puzon.

17x gives you large, large amounts of EXP from overleveled pirates, several cool treasures like Sleep Staff and Lancereaver (more about their utility than its cash worth, due to the 16000G funds requirement). And under 10 turns can easily be done if you use Florina and her move again properly, so that's a winning deal for tactics.

19x is a no-brainer since it gives you the Silver Card which is worth so much more than the ~20k that the chapter requires of you (after taking off ~5k worth of the Goddess Icon)

19xx I've elaborated on

23x requires some serious optimization in 23 (700 EXP requirement requires ferrying Pent, while you also want to finish quickly, and find treasure), but that and the difficulty of the chapter itself are nothing compared to the benefits. +25 turns, take off like 10 or even 15 for the chapter and you're still left with a winning deal, and a goldmine for EXP due to all the promoted enemies (650 EXP requirement is nothing)

28x has another lax requirement (28 turns), it's the only way to make real use out of Matthew's Assassin EXP boosting skillz (trade a 50k Fell Contract for a L1 unit with a potential quadruple EXP bonus). Funds requirement is huge, but then again this chapter has like Fenrir, Blue Gem and Fell Contract and some other stuff, I'm quite sure it matches up.

31x has five free turns of arena'ing, which altogether makes like 30000G (while the requirement is only 1000G more than that), and it is the easiest way to convert your huge bunches of fluid cash into weapons for the last few maps. I found myself running out of inventory space though, so I would recommend going to the VoD Secret Shop for Ocean Seals or Fell Contracts.

32x is a zero requirement, which stinks for tactics, but you're pretty much facing L18 Berserkers and gaining some treasure as well (second Fortify Staff and a Swordslayer that considerably speeds up killing Lloyd and Linus)

By time I mean turn count only. There’s no value in how fast a player can move a cursor or perform trades in regards to comparing the merit of 2 units.

I guess you mean time to make all the Lyn Mode turns then, because obviously you can take forever in Lyn Mode without it having any effect on Hector Mode.

I can’t say much in regards to enemy levels (I’m only on chp 19 in HHM) but if Eliwood/Hector get stuck on lv 14-15, just give them a boss kill or use the arena (assuming everyone else is working towards beating the chapter efficiently).

The problem with an arena is that the best and next one is in the chapter they have to be like 18-20 for to begin with. The previous and first one (Port of Badon one is unreachable for anyone but Florina unless you want to take considerably longer) is on New Resolve, which can be beaten in like 5 turns if you have strong Cavs, and it's in the middle of a lot of wyverns, some with Poison Lances (hi Eliwood)

I would contend that if Geitz weren’t going to be in play, then the effect is nonexistent (aside from losing a killer axe), and Geitz is only slightly above average, though Wallace sucks either way.

Geitz is good. One-rounds any unpromoted enemy except Mercs/Myrms, and it's not long before he does the former, and he has enough special weaponry and solid stats available (B weapon ranks on Warrior class rule) to snag ORKOs on Paladins, Snipers, Generals, Druids, Sages, Bishops, Falcoknights, Wyvern Lords and...well, pretty much anything that's not a boss, Hero, Swordmaster or Valkyrie. He does nothing for your EXP rank, but his battle parameters are quite great. Definitely much better off than Wallace, who has Def and nothing else.

It's hard to talk about "in play" since you are kind of required to use nearly everyone at some point, though unpromoteds moreso than promoted ones due to the EXP rank.

I’d say the same in regards to Harken, Karel’s negative impact on the team is the difference between a brave sword and a wo dao, which Reikken argued on gamefaqs quite convincingly to be rather small, and I don’t think the difference between Karel and Harken’s performance is really that large just based on looking at their averages. And again, if Harken isn’t being used, Karel’s not going to be punished for it.

Harken's superiority is overrated, yes, though very noticable stat-wise and Hand Axe-wise.

[dondon151]

13x gives you your first portion of fluid gold, so it's well worth the enormous trouble of beating it without feeding everything to Marcus. And at worst it adds one turn to your tactics rank, and that's only if you don't beat Puzon.

IIRC beating Puzon doesn't end the chapter. If defeating the boss doesn't end the chapter, you're stuck with the extra turn (it doesn't really matter much anyway). It's rather tough like you said, though.

23x requires some serious optimization in 23 (700 EXP requirement requires ferrying Pent, while you also want to finish quickly, and find treasure), but that and the difficulty of the chapter itself are nothing compared to the benefits. +25 turns, take off like 10 or even 15 for the chapter and you're still left with a winning deal, and a goldmine for EXP due to all the promoted enemies (650 EXP requirement is nothing)

This chapter is an absolute nightmare. Kishuna also moves, so you'll get some sparse Boltings coming your way even before he disappears only 5 turns in. </worthless commentary>

28x has another lax requirement (28 turns), it's the only way to make real use out of Matthew's Assassin EXP boosting skillz (trade a 50k Fell Contract for a L1 unit with a potential quadruple EXP bonus). Funds requirement is huge, but then again this chapter has like Fenrir, Blue Gem and Fell Contract and some other stuff, I'm quite sure it matches up.

People actually use the Fell Contract? I understand Assassins give a shitload of EXP when they get the OHKO, but Fell Contract is worth 5x any other promotion item... Is Funds really that easy? I don't recall it being so =/

31x has five free turns of arena'ing, which altogether makes like 30000G (while the requirement is only 1000G more than that), and it is the easiest way to convert your huge bunches of fluid cash into weapons for the last few maps. I found myself running out of inventory space though, so I would recommend going to the VoD Secret Shop for Ocean Seals or Fell Contracts.

30 000G from the Ostian coffers or from the arena? You're going to need to send in like 8 or 9 people per turn to get 30 000G from there.

[Mekkah]

IIRC beating Puzon doesn't end the chapter. If defeating the boss doesn't end the chapter, you're stuck with the extra turn (it doesn't really matter much anyway). It's rather tough like you said, though.

It doesn't end the chapter, but for some reason the game counts an extra turn for set # turn chapters if you don't beat the boss (applies to Talons Alight and Sands of Time as well, the other defend maps have a secondary "Defeat boss" objective).

This chapter is an absolute nightmare. Kishuna also moves, so you'll get some sparse Boltings coming your way even before he disappears only 5 turns in. </worthless commentary>

Yeah, this is probably the best opportunity to spam Barrier and use Pure Waters and Physics (both buyable a few chapters before).

People actually use the Fell Contract? I understand Assassins give a shitload of EXP when they get the OHKO, but Fell Contract is worth 5x any other promotion item... Is Funds really that easy? I don't recall it being so =/

Funds is easier to manage than EXP due to item buying/selling/obtaining being pretty much 100% in control. If you know you have that much gold leftover, I see little reason not to do it.

30 000G from the Ostian coffers or from the arena? You're going to need to send in like 8 or 9 people per turn to get 30 000G from there.

Heh, I was sleepy and forgot about the 30000G you got at the start, and thought five times 500-600G from the arena equaled 30k. Looking over it again, you now only need 1000G from the arena to play even with the chapter's funds ranking, not to mention that 30,000G is actually 60,000G if you use the Silver Card with it. You should be able to get in two rounds per turn at least in the arena using smart rescuing, so that makes for about 5,000G extra (10,000 with Silver Card). Definitely zero reason to refuse this sidequest, you could say it pretty much pays for a Matthew/Dart promotion by itself.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Mekkah

[dondon151]

It doesn't end the chapter, but for some reason the game counts an extra turn for set # turn chapters if you don't beat the boss (applies to Talons Alight and Sands of Time as well, the other defend maps have a secondary "Defeat boss" objective).

The website says:

"If you wait out a survival chapter, the game will count an extra turn at the end of the chapter.

For example, if the victory condition is to survive 11 turns (or defeat the boss), the game will count 12 turns if you wait the whole chapter. However if, during Turn 11, you defeat the boss during the player (or enemy) phase, it won't count the extra turn."

This leads me to believe that if killing the boss doesn't end the chapter, then you're stuck with the extra turn regardless. The wording is a bit confusing; I would like some confirmation on this. I'm actually on this chapter now, so by the beginning of chapter 15 I'll be able to see if 13x adds 7 turns if Puzon gets defeated.

Funds is easier to manage than EXP due to item buying/selling/obtaining being pretty much 100% in control. If you know you have that much gold leftover, I see little reason not to do it.

But there is only so much that is obtainable, plus the Funds rank doesn't necessarily grow proportionately to the amount of stuff that you get. My last playthrough I kept worrying about Funds because I only just met the 5-star requirements prior to 31x, then after taking advantage of the Silver Card it no longer became a problem. If you know what you're doing and what to expect then this isn't a problem, but if you don't...

Heh, I was sleepy and forgot about the 30000G you got at the start, and thought five times 500-600G from the arena equaled 30k. Looking over it again, you now only need 1000G from the arena to play even with the chapter's funds ranking, not to mention that 30,000G is actually 60,000G if you use the Silver Card with it. You should be able to get in two rounds per turn at least in the arena using smart rescuing, so that makes for about 5,000G extra (10,000 with Silver Card). Definitely zero reason to refuse this sidequest, you could say it pretty much pays for a Matthew/Dart promotion by itself.

It can also pay for promotions for 5 other people. Matthew/Legault you've made a case for, but there is very little to reason to promote Dart.

Edited January 14, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

The wording is a bit confusing; I would like some confirmation on this. I'm actually on this chapter now, so by the beginning of chapter 15 I'll be able to see if 13x adds 7 turns if Puzon gets defeated.

The wording doesn't confuse me at all. Example for 13x:

- Kill Puzon: 7 turns to tactics rank

- Don't kill Puzon: 8 turns to tactics rank

But there is only so much that is obtainable, plus the Funds rank doesn't necessarily grow proportionately to the amount of stuff that you get. My last playthrough I kept worrying about Funds because I only just met the 5-star requirements prior to 31x, then after taking advantage of the Silver Card it no longer became a problem. If you know what you're doing and what to expect then this isn't a problem, but if you don't...

If you don't keep track or don't know what to expect you probably shouldn't have very high expectations of your rank to begin with. Keeping track of your funds is as vital as keeping track of enemy movement range.

It can also pay for promotions for 5 other people. Matthew/Legault you've made a case for, but there is very little to reason to promote Dart.

I agree there is little reason to promote Dart...or Legault really - not enough crit from supports, and sucks too much at combat to raise without being a detriment. I was just making a point of how it is absolutely foolish to refuse to go to 31x.

[riariadne]

That's rather arbitrary. Shouldn't the weight of a chapter depend on the number of enemies, the size of the map and the difficulty, among other factors? You can't possibly equate Lyn's prologue chapter to chapters 8-10.

Sorry typo, enemy density makes it like 4 lyn chapters = 1 eliwood chapter.

[Mekkah]

That still doesn't address his point: that it's arbitrary, and flawed to weigh all Lyn Mode chapters the same when Ch9, for example, has much more enemies than Ch1.

[riariadne]

AVERAGED OUT, meaning density and levels, too.

[dondon151]

The wording doesn't confuse me at all. Example for 13x:

- Kill Puzon: 7 turns to tactics rank

- Don't kill Puzon: 8 turns to tactics rank

The wording that is difficult to interpret is the "(or defeat the boss)" part. I thought it meant that defeating the boss must be an actual alternate requirement in order for this +1 turn to be circumvented.

I actually did a test for this on my current playthrough, and killing Puzon indeed has no effect on the turn count (if I did my addition right). This actually kind of makes sense - if you wait out 7 turns on a hypothetical map that has the alternate requirement of defeating the boss, you're playing through the last enemy phase, but if the boss dies, then the chapter completes without finishing the last enemy phase. Maybe on these chapters the game adds a turn at the end of enemy phase?

If you don't keep track or don't know what to expect you probably shouldn't have very high expectations of your rank to begin with. Keeping track of your funds is as vital as keeping track of enemy movement range.

How do you keep track of funds? Stuff that you're never going to use is easy to keep track of and it's easy to add the value of items obtained from chests/villages, but your assets continually decrease as your army eats through weapons. I would rather not count the number of uses of each Iron Axe etc. that I have in my inventory and then sum up the total assets. I suppose this is easier near the end of the game where there is limited remaining obtainable funds.

I agree there is little reason to promote Dart...or Legault really - not enough crit from supports, and sucks too much at combat to raise without being a detriment. I was just making a point of how it is absolutely foolish to refuse to go to 31x.

Agreed.

Edited January 16, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

For the turn count in "Survive/Protect for x turns" maps, I think the game adds an extra turn at the end for the boss saying something like "alright time to go we can't win anyway".

For keeping track of funds, the renewable weapons have very little effect on your funds rank (300G for a whole Iron Axe and such is nothing). You can just make rough estimates. The vast majority of your funds rank is in gems, promo items, Silver Carded cash, and really expensive things like higher rank tomes (especially Dark). And obviously the S-rank weapons, but those pretty much equalize the funds requirement for the final chapter.

[dondon151]

I just had an idea.

Since the FE8 tier list accounts for differences between Eirika's and Ephraim's routes by giving two slots in the tier list to certain characters, why can't the FE7 tier list do the same with LM?

[riariadne]

I just had an idea.

Since the FE8 tier list accounts for differences between Eirika's and Ephraim's routes by giving two slots in the tier list to certain characters, why can't the FE7 tier list do the same with LM?

I dunno, Lyn's mode is kinda short? It doesn't really fit.

Here's my solution to this problem: The list assumes that all Lyn's mode charcters with the exception of Lyn, Matthew, Nils, Rath and Wallce were level 8 upon rejoining. Lyn level 10, Matthew level 6, Nils level 4, Rath level 9, and Wallace lv 12/1. Does that work?

Edited January 19, 2009 by Reinfleche

[Mekkah]

Naw. Rather, when judging someone's returning level from Lyn Mode, you look at as if they had been playing Lyn's story in "Sacred Stones mode" (faster > fast, more efficient > less efficient, though the gap is really small due to Lyn Mode being pathetically easy for everyone to perform well in) + funds rank. Look at how likely it is for the people to be played/trained for a more efficient run, decide some average amount of people that are used (I'd say 4 at least for Lyn, Kent, Sain and Erk, then 2-3 more combat units because of Mid tier people like Lucius or Rath having a shot at being used, or earlygame convenience for Matthew and Dorcas). Then divide evenly, and you end up at like 9/0 for everyone.