Tier list!!!

[Dat Nick]

[waits for Reikken to complain about Rebecca being low tier]

EDT: Is Marcus even doubling any of those outside the mages?

Edited February 22, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Reikken]

[complains incessantly]

[Mekkah]

Assuming 13-14 AS (anywhere between L9 and L13), he fails to double Snipers, Mercs, Hero, Paladins and Wyvern Lords. He's probably borderline on the Sage, and gets all the non-Merc unpromoted stuff, the Bishops and Falco.

[dondon151]

Eliwood is above the cavs? His strength is effective damage from Rapier while the cavs have 2 move, lances (1-2 range plus more damage), and earlier promotion. I think Lowen has defense on him too.

[Mekkah]

Earlier promo depends. There is only 2 Knight Crests, and there's one dude with a level lead on them (Oswin), though admittedly optimal use of Oswin may not include to promote him. But then again, Eliwood's is also more expensive...I'll switch that up for now.

For Rebecca, I'm afraid I don't see the hype. FE7 is full of situations where being able to go out there alone and kill a bunch of fags with no need for anything but a Javelin and/or a Killer weapon, and has very few ones where Rebecca is specifically useful. Earlygame chip damage is...fine, I guess, but she also requires to be walled from attacks and gets 2RKOed by everything.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Mekkah

[Reikken]

There is no hype. Sain can run out with a Javelin and kill stuff, yeah. But that's a whole two tiers up. I'm not saying high tier. Mid tier contains many units who can't do that at all.

[Dat Nick]

Eliwood's is also more expensive.

Isn't this tier nonranked, making that a total moot point? I suppose you could argue 10k from selling the second seal [can you even sell them in the first place?]>Lyn sucking less, though. Definitely nothing to hold against Eliwood, though: Not promoting him hurts a billion times more than it helps, considering the funds rank is tossed out the window in what we're currently debating.

o ya, and most people in Mid tier can counter at melee, don't require a whole lot of babying, some of them even have access to 1-2 range.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

Earlier promo depends. There is only 2 Knight Crests, and there's one dude with a level lead on them (Oswin), though admittedly optimal use of Oswin may not include to promote him. But then again, Eliwood's is also more expensive...I'll switch that up for now.

There's an Earth Seal available. Whether that's used by a cavalier or another unit is up to debate, but Knight Crest is easily the most demanded promotion item in the game and the cavs are good enough that they deserve priority to it.

o ya, and most people in Mid tier can counter at melee, don't require a whole lot of babying, some of them even have access to 1-2 range.

All units in mid tier have 1-2 range except for Lyn and Legault, and they have Mani Katti and thief utility, respectively. That's better than 2 range and flier effectiveness...

Edited February 23, 2009 by dondon151

[Reikken]

All units in mid tier have 1-2 range except for Lyn and Legault, and they have Mani Katti and thief utility, respectively. That's better than 2 range and flier effectiveness...

1 range is not inherently better than 2 range. It's definitely worse against 1-2 range enemies. Aside from that, it depends. It's worse against 1 range for low durability units such as Lyn.

And that reminds me...

First point is true, however, using her that way makes her utility dwindle very quickly, while using her in a way that supports her utility for more chapters hurts the rest of the team, so overall it's bad for Rebecca. Saying that it "benefits the team" when Rebecca isn't gaining as much EXP sounds like a poor excuse to support a low tier character. I can say that not using Bartre "benefits the team" because the EXP he doesn't get goes to units that are better than him. Heck, the tier list would be trash if not using a low tier so that a high tier could be used in his stead is considered a point for the low tier.

Are you serious? Not using Bartre isn't even related to this. In that, he's not doing anything. Rebecca, however, is doing damage to enemies.

"while using her in a way that supports her utility for more chapters hurts the rest of the team"

No. It's exactly the same as anyone who attacks melee, with regards to the point in question.

The difference between theoretical Eliwood and Rebecca is that Rebecca is locked to 2 range while theoretical Eliwood can still attack from 1 range and utilize WTA in his favor when doing so. Point is, Rebecca pretty much always plays in a way that reduces her EXP gain while everyone else doesn't.

Attacking from 1 range and WTA or whatever (which is doesn't matter except against hand axes) is irrelevant to the point. That's the problem with analogies. They often get attacked on irrelevant points. I guess it wasn't clear enough. I'll try to explain it directly, then. You said that the ability to do damage without taking damage works against the character, and that's totally absurd. It is in no way, shape or form a negative of any kind. It's 100% impossible for an optional advantage to be an overall negative. If the long term effects somehow turn out worse than the tactical advantage it gives you, then just don't use it. It's not mandatory. Have her finish just as often as anyone else. Then, rather than getting the effect of better overall team durability, and increased exp for others at the cost of less exp for herself, it drops to just improving her own durability.

"Earlygame chapters get rather congested, and it takes mutliple rounds to kill enemies. Space is a valuable commodity. You need to be able to actually attack that enemy. Rebecca brings in additional offense without getting in the way of others attacking. Bartre can use hand axes, but those are in short supply until after ch 13."

You get like 25 uses of Hand Axe on player phase. 1-2 range frankly isn't THAT important early-game where magic units are absent, so it's not getting used up very quickly. A small point for Rebecca, nonetheless.

By "in short supply", I mean that you have only two, and there are four units who can use them. Or in chapter 12, one hand axe and three users.

Why don't you want Bartre counterattacking? He does the most damage per hit of any of your units (OK, not Oswin or Marcus), no one can double yet, and his accuracy isn't shockingly bad unless he faces WTD or terrain disadvantage. Sure, his durability is only average even with that massive HP, but he takes away chunks of HP on counterattack, which is more than what non-Rapier Eliwood or Lowen can do.

Eh, I was assuming Lyn mode and how Dorcas is like Bartre except better. Also, "no one can double yet" is incorrect. Matthew doubles, LHM or not, and so does Marcus. Guy doubles as well once he joins. And Soldiers get doubled by anyone not Bartre.

In 12, Bartre counterattacking is fine. No Oswin, Hector, or Matthew exists in the vicinity. In 13, if it's a peg he's countering, then that's fine. Otherwise, it's usually better for someone else to do it. After that, times where he should be counterattacking start to not exist.

Chapter 12 Eliwood's group sees little action. Chapter 13 enemies CAN reach Rebecca, and I'd also like to point out that there are also a plethora of other characters who don't want to be ganged up on, but who at least can perform during enemy phase. So between partially blocking the frailer melee units and fully blocking Rebecca and Serra, this requires a lot of effort.

Indeed there are tons of other characters who don't want to be ganged up on. And how does one prevent this? Either by being farther away so that fewer enemies can reach, or by not having holes in your front line, so that characters can't be attacked on multiple sides. Rebecca's presence rarely, or even never (in the very early chapters, at least), increases the need for blocking off characters and such.

And if she gets attacked? Oops, dead Rebecca after 2 rounds. Using Rebecca is more of a hazard to your survival rank than Bartre. Wait, Bartre should be getting attacked while Rebecca shouldn't? OK then, let's just shield Bartre and prevent him from doing anything enemy phase, but he still does more damage to anything not a soldier on player phase because he doesn't have 4 base strength with the second weakest class of physical weapon in the game. Oh yeah, he also doesn't die in 2 rounds of combat should he get hit.

So, play Bartre the same way you play Rebecca and he's still better. Play Bartre to his maximum potential and he's way better.

No, because playing Bartre the way Rebecca plays usually requires him to be using a hand axe. Attacking without being exposed to enemies generally involves attacking from range. Attacking over other characters.

Theory-play aside, Bartre still has large offensive and defensive leads. And since both characters do ultimately serve only to kill stuff while not being killed, Bartre is better.

He also has offensive and defensive shortcomings (misses, gets doubled). Are his raw offensive and defensive parameters better overall? Sure. But to make use of that better offense, he has to attack at 1 range, usually negating or even reversing his defense lead, and, in tight quarters, leaving others less able to attack. At 2 range, he doesn't have better offense.

Is Bartre better overall? For 12, though there's not much to really do, yeah, he's better. You have a shortage of good meleers.

In 13... he may be better if he gets to use the hand axe, but then if he's using it, that means two of the other three hand axers don't have a hand axe, so I don't think he is.

For 13x, he's worse. Swords and things that actually have avoid and spd exist, and you definitely have no shortage of frontliners.

For 14... I dunno.

In 15, he's better until the soldiers and knights are gone, and then he's worse.

In 16, he's worse. Most enemies either use a sword or likely get doubled by Rebecca, and a lot is on forests, so his hit sucks.

Here on, Rebecca doubles things more and more, and Bartre starts losing offense against everything but knights, even at 1 range.

[grandjackal]

To add onto Reikken's fight to get Rebecca up, let's not forget two supports she has. Lowen and Dart.

Dart has been debated here recently, saying he has no supports. Well, Rebecca definitely wouldn't mind. FirexFire is win. It's pretty quick too. I think...I should recheck that, so just keep in mind that's probably false...Still, apparently no one wants to support Dart. Now there is.

Lowen is fire too. He's got defense and his supports don't really give him much thanks to his fire affinity. He's tanky as it is. He'll get the evade anyways, along with more power options and can actually get crit to speak of. For a good while, he's basically a knight on a horse without Oswin's utter tank power. Not often will he be able to just go out on his own until later chapters. Which point, he can be near Rebecca to protect her for a while, so the support can build. Lowen's weak point is offense anyways, he'd LOVE more strength when he's got teh tank skillz anyways.

Benefits 2 others, one being win and the other being pretty good, ALL THREE are fire. She isn't the greatest early, but she can end up a dodge tank with her speed, luck and supports, gets mad power up and crit with it. Thanks to her good skill and fire boosting hit, she won't miss ever. Not a major thing, but having perfect accuracy is never something to complain about. "It isn't hard to hit-" SHUSH! Perfect accuracy > pretty good accuracy.

Her only real weak point is early game, and it's not like she's absolutely useless there. I agree with Reikken, I think Bartre's having a harder time here than Rebecca.

Note I'm a noob that sucks at ranks due to phail luck that also lacks the fact I haven't memorized support speeds for everyone and stat averages. I just wanted to point that out...I COULD have been brief, but I'm obsessive to detail...I'm starting to think it's OCD or some shit.

[Dat Nick]

It's definitely worse against 1-2 range enemies.

It would be if FE7's AI was retarded enough to attack archers with handaxes at melee.

[Reikken]

It's easy to position a 2 ranger where a 1-2 range enemy can only attack at 2 range.

If a wall or river or such stands in the way, another character is in the way, another enemy is in the way, or you're just at the edge of the enemy's range--this last one can be helped by hard-to-cross terrain being between the two units---- for any of those, 2 range can counterattack 1-2 range. 1 range can only counterattack if another enemy is the way. Or much more often, several other enemies, since there are far more places to attack something from 2 range than from 1 range.

[dondon151]

1 range is not inherently better than 2 range. It's definitely worse against 1-2 range enemies. Aside from that, it depends. It's worse against 1 range for low durability units such as Lyn.

1 range being worse against 1 range is Lyn's fault, not 1 range's fault. 2 range is worse against 1 range than 1 range, as 1 range is at least doing damage whereas 2 range is sitting there eating an attack. Furthermore, the majority of enemies in this game are 1 range, fewer are 1-2 range, and fewer still are 2 range.

Attacking from 1 range and WTA or whatever (which is doesn't matter except against hand axes) is irrelevant to the point. That's the problem with analogies. They often get attacked on irrelevant points. I guess it wasn't clear enough. I'll try to explain it directly, then. You said that the ability to do damage without taking damage works against the character, and that's totally absurd. It is in no way, shape or form a negative of any kind.

I didn't say that. It's not a negative when there are no negatives associated with it. Locked to 2 range is an advantage on player phase and a huge disadvantage on enemy phase.

It's 100% impossible for an optional advantage to be an overall negative. If the long term effects somehow turn out worse than the tactical advantage it gives you, then just don't use it. It's not mandatory. Have her finish just as often as anyone else. Then, rather than getting the effect of better overall team durability, and increased exp for others at the cost of less exp for herself, it drops to just improving her own durability.

Going Eliwood -> Rebecca on a Brigand instead of Rebecca -> Eliwood is risking damage on Eliwood. The latter sequence of combat is preferred over the former because it means that Eliwood doesn't have to spend a turn using a Vulnerary or waiting for Serra's Heal.

By "in short supply", I mean that you have only two, and there are four units who can use them. Or in chapter 12, one hand axe and three users.

I won't be nitpicking over short supply.

Eh, I was assuming Lyn mode and how Dorcas is like Bartre except better. Also, "no one can double yet" is incorrect. Matthew doubles, LHM or not, and so does Marcus. Guy doubles as well once he joins. And Soldiers get doubled by anyone not Bartre.

You know what I meant by "no one can double." Marcus rocks, Matthew and Guy doubling are given. It's the originally non-doubling cast that I'm speaking of. Bartre also doubles soldiers after like 2 level ups.

In 12, Bartre counterattacking is fine. No Oswin, Hector, or Matthew exists in the vicinity. In 13, if it's a peg he's countering, then that's fine. Otherwise, it's usually better for someone else to do it. After that, times where he should be counterattacking start to not exist.

And times where Rebecca should be counterattacking occur even more seldom than times where Bartre should be counterattacking.

Indeed there are tons of other characters who don't want to be ganged up on. And how does one prevent this? Either by being farther away so that fewer enemies can reach, or by not having holes in your front line, so that characters can't be attacked on multiple sides. Rebecca's presence rarely, or even never (in the very early chapters, at least), increases the need for blocking off characters and such.

I'd argue this using personal experience on chapter 13, but w/e.

No, because playing Bartre the way Rebecca plays usually requires him to be using a hand axe. Attacking without being exposed to enemies generally involves attacking from range. Attacking over other characters.

Bartre doesn't have to attack from range using a Hand Axe. He can also attack from melee. He can afford being exposed to enemies and still have a semblance of productivity while Rebecca does not. Except, of course, in the case where 2-rangers go after her to try and prey on her poor durability.

He also has offensive and defensive shortcomings (misses, gets doubled). Are his raw offensive and defensive parameters better overall? Sure. But to make use of that better offense, he has to attack at 1 range, usually negating or even reversing his defense lead, and, in tight quarters, leaving others less able to attack. At 2 range, he doesn't have better offense.

Bartre's only doubled by nomads, but Rebecca's 2-rounded anyway so they tie there. Defensively Bartre is better everywhere else. Missing is an issue against swordies, but even hit rates at around 60 against axers (not even sure if it's this low) still let Bartre maintain his offensive lead. Rebecca's literally scratching brigands, cavaliers and armors with her 10 base attack; Bartre's outdamaging her so much against those that hit rate fails to compensate in Rebecca's favor.

Is Bartre better overall? For 12, though there's not much to really do, yeah, he's better. You have a shortage of good meleers.

In 13... he may be better if he gets to use the hand axe, but then if he's using it, that means two of the other three hand axers don't have a hand axe, so I don't think he is.

Hand Axe brigands and archers are the only 2-rangers in ch13 IIRC and they're few. Bartre's not comparing very well to the others, but what's Rebecca doing other than chip damage and hiding?

For 13x, he's worse. Swords and things that actually have avoid and spd exist, and you definitely have no shortage of frontliners.

Yeah, Bartre's no good on 13x.

For 14... I dunno.

There's the lancers near the starting point plus PKs, and cavaliers like wielding lances, so he's OK here. Rebecca's still doing chip damage and can't 1-round the PKs, so no offensive advantage.

In 15, he's better until the soldiers and knights are gone, and then he's worse.

Rebecca likes the walls here.

In 16, he's worse. Most enemies either use a sword or likely get doubled by Rebecca, and a lot is on forests, so his hit sucks.

Here on, Rebecca doubles things more and more, and Bartre starts losing offense against everything but knights, even at 1 range.

I don't think Rebecca doubles the cavs, mercs, or brigands that dominate the chapter, and she's still doing chip damage. Also, Bartre still gets to reap the benefits of enemy phase offense.

It's easy to position a 2 ranger where a 1-2 range enemy can only attack at 2 range.

If a wall or river or such stands in the way, another character is in the way, another enemy is in the way, or you're just at the edge of the enemy's range--this last one can be helped by hard-to-cross terrain being between the two units---- for any of those, 2 range can counterattack 1-2 range. 1 range can only counterattack if another enemy is the way. Or much more often, several other enemies, since there are far more places to attack something from 2 range than from 1 range.

Wall/river is fine, another character blocking means that the enemy would rather attack the blocking character if he doesn't have 2 range (and if he does, well, Rebecca's redundant), and edge of enemy's range is terribly situational and doesn't happen often if characters are moving quickly to aim for efficiency. Rebecca can also counter from 2 range if she's already surrounded by 4 enemies and other dudes with 1-2 range want to attack her, but that's totally crap for combat.

It's true that 1 range will never counter 1-2 range, but 2 range will never counter 1 range, and 1 range is more prevalent. 2 range countering 1-2 and 2 range is possible but doesn't happen often while 1 range will always counter 1 range unless a 2 range dude is nearby.

To add onto Reikken's fight to get Rebecca up, let's not forget two supports she has. Lowen and Dart.

Lowen's not getting Rebecca, ever. 38 turns for C for 2 units with move disparities and huge durability differences? No thanks.

Edited February 24, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Lowen's got anything better to do? News to me. He already has an Eliwood support and FirexIce bonuses suck: Neither Lowen or Marcus benefits from them very much.

38 turns for C isn't even that slow, that's actually pretty fast for FE7. It's just not wtfhaxfast like Eliwood/Hector or something.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Mekkah]

Just because it's "not that slow" doesn't mean it's decently fast. It is totally out of the question for a ranked run, and it probably doesn't help a whole lot in unranked either.

[Dat Nick]

inb4 Reikken attempts to justify LowenxRebecca A support

[Janissary]

Karel needs to be last, period. Preventing you from getting a great unit means bottom tier, last character. Harken should be bottom of the tier above him.

[_____]

What justification do you have for your placement of Harken, Janissary?

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanam

[Janissary]

He exists within the best axe using class in the game. Oh wait, why do I care, this is ENM.

Use whoever you want. They all win.

[Vykan12]

Karel needs to be last, period. Preventing you from getting a great unit means bottom tier, last character. Harken should be bottom of the tier above him.

Don't be silly. If Harken isn't in play, Karel's recruitment isn't even being a detriment. And in the cases where it is, it's only the difference between Harken and Karel's performance, not that between getting Harken and not getting anyone.

[dondon151]

Lowen's got anything better to do? News to me. He already has an Eliwood support and FirexIce bonuses suck: Neither Lowen or Marcus benefits from them very much.

38 turns for C isn't even that slow, that's actually pretty fast for FE7. It's just not wtfhaxfast like Eliwood/Hector or something.

Uh I never got Eliwood and Lowen to even a C (before I ditched Lowen at ch28) in my ranked run, and unranked still has stringent turn requirements that detail efficiency, so it's safe to say that RebeccaxLowen C will take a long-ass time to happen. Who cares if firexice sucks? Having bonuses (with a decent character, no less) is better than not having bonuses.

[Florete]

Karel needs to be last, period. Preventing you from getting a great unit means bottom tier, last character. Harken should be bottom of the tier above him.

I'm a bit late, but by this logic, Wallace would be dead last anyway. He forces you to keep the levels of your lords lower than they could be (unless you refrain from using Lyn or something), sends you to a tougher map (FoW, and I recall Lloyd moving on one mode), and is, obviously, worse than Geitz. The only possible advantage is that he's easier to recruit.

I'm not trying to argue Wallace to bottom of bottom with this if anyone was wondering.

[Mekkah]

Actually I think you have to raise your lords way too damn fast to get the Geitz map, especially for ranked tier lists, but yeah Karel >>> Wallace at least.

He exists within the best axe using class in the game.

wtf kind of reasoning is this to place someone exactly a tier above what you just said was the worst in the game?

[Dat Nick]

If Harken isn't in play, Karel's recruitment isn't even being a detriment.

Harken's really awesome though, so naturally people are going to want him in play more often than not.

Not that Karel's not fairly judged for this. He was below Wil at one point which is ridiclious.

[YokaiKnight]

curiousfag who hasn't played FE7 in 3+ years here; why is Guy top tier while Lyn is mid? Funds and crit bonus, I assume?