Malexis Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 But it seems so many people here aren't into OCs as they are into having themselves in the story. It feels like if I put the other board members in this one then it'd be selling out. Maybe you would have more readers with Forum Insertion, but eh.. You would also have more readers if you wrote a porno story. Doesn't mean you should do it. As Ivy said, OCs> Forum Insertion. :\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 But it seems so many people here aren't into OCs as they are into having themselves in the story. I believe it is what people refer to as vanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnell Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Maybe you would have more readers with Forum Insertion, but eh.. You would also have more readers if you wrote a porno story. Doesn't mean you should do it. As Ivy said, OCs> Forum Insertion. :\ I don't get what the big deal is. Either way, they are characters made by you. You make their personality for the most part, their role in the story, their actions, ect. Take my story for example, I have completely made the background stories and personalities of all 10+ of my main characters. 6 or so of those are members or my friends. I admit OCs are good, and there should be some in every story, but member insertion isn't as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Like I said, it is a matter of vanity and "wish fulfilment". Cynthia also put it well by calling it "forum member worship". The people who like forum member insertion love to see and think of themselves as being uber cool. Insertions in fanfic and other internet writings are also the most obvious of Mary Sues/Gary Stus; since again, people love to portray themselves and their buddies as "cool" or "badass" et-cetera. Take my story for example, I have completely made the background stories and personalities of all 10+ of my main characters. 6 or so of those are members or my friends. That is not justification or excuse enough. Simply naming a character after yourself or a friend counts as insertion, and can be seen as a very obvious wish fulfilment. In my opinion, no matter how you put it, forum member insertion is just the cheap way of getting all your buddies to praise your work. My proof: well look at all the crap (Let's not lie to ourselves here) on this forum that people seem to praise all the time... you cannot honestly tell me that without the insertions, the people would actually still like it. It is just an annoying spiral of ego feeding. Edited January 14, 2009 by Man of the Year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnell Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Like I said, it is a matter of vanity and "wish fulfilment". Cynthia also put it well by calling it "forum member worship". The people who like forum member insertion love to see and think of themselves as being uber cool. Insertions in fanfic and other internet writings are also the most obvious of Mary Sues/Gary Stus; since again, people love to portray themselves and their buddies as "cool" or "badass" et-cetera. That is not justification or excuse enough. Simply naming a character after yourself or a friend counts as insertion, and can be seen as a very obvious wish fulfilment. In my opinion, no matter how you put it, forum member insertion is just the cheap way of getting all your buddies to praise your work. My proof: well look at all the crap (Let's not lie to ourselves here) on this forum that people seem to praise all the time... you cannot honestly tell me that without the insertions, the people would actually still like it. It is just an annoying spiral of ego feeding. While I agree with you in some cases, what you've said is not always true. For me, I had the basic idea of what the story was going to be, got a general number of characters I wanted, and then asked for people to sign up. Mostly, it was a bit of laziness that prompted me to insert members. When they gave me a name and a class (I suck at giving my characters names), I could expand on their personality and fully created exact events. And I purposely didn't put myself as a "badass" character. In fact, I'm pretty lame in my story (I haven't gotten to the part where I come in yet, though). This is the first time I've ever used a form of self/member insertion, so I tend to favor OCs as well. Right now, I could change the names of all my characters and you'd never have known I used other people, because I did pretty much make them up myself. And finally, while just using members so they read your story is a bit lame, who gives a crap if your story is good if no one ever reads it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Rabbit Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Bump. I've resumed writing my story, and already I can't decide on something I like. As in what I had for this part confused ME. If it's confusing to me then it'll confuse readers too. So I contemplated breaking serious tension with a funny scene, but it just doesn't fit. It probably won't help, but if you've got suggestions then post on. A little information about the scene: A side-character's acting emo and his friend is trying hard to get him to realize something. It's the only way he'll stop acting like a pissant and start to help out the main character again. Edited January 20, 2009 by Metal Arc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 So I contemplated breaking serious tension with a funny scene, but it just doesn't fit. Humour can be a nice thing to add. But there are good times to use it, and bad. Breaking tension with humour can sometimes be very disappointing to read; when tension is built up, the readers expect something big, scary or exciting to happen... diffusing if with humour can be a bit of cop out. A little information about the scene: A side-character's acting emo and his friend is trying hard to get him to realize something. It's the only way he'll stop acting like a pissant and start to help out the main character again. Unfortunately, there are many ways in which I could interpret that scene with the information you have given. Angst is a better word to use than "emo". And the last part of the information bodes ill in my opinion, it kind of makes it sound like helping the main protagonist is the most important thing to this side character; and while it is not a bad thing for them to want to help them, it can make a side character appear undeveloped if this mission is just to help the protagonist. A bit more information would be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnell Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I've got another question. I just looked over all the characters in my story, and I noticed that I only have 1 female, compared to 10 guys. I could change one character (an assassin) into a girl, but I don't think that would work very well. Should I start changing my story to fit more girls in, or should I leave it as it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Rabbit Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Humour can be a nice thing to add. But there are good times to use it, and bad. Breaking tension with humour can sometimes be very disappointing to read; when tension is built up, the readers expect something big, scary or exciting to happen... diffusing if with humour can be a bit of cop out.Unfortunately, there are many ways in which I could interpret that scene with the information you have given. Angst is a better word to use than "emo". And the last part of the information bodes ill in my opinion, it kind of makes it sound like helping the main protagonist is the most important thing to this side character; and while it is not a bad thing for them to want to help them, it can make a side character appear undeveloped if this mission is just to help the protagonist. A bit more information would be useful. Guardians: They're machine-like entities whose purpose is to help/protect the human they're assigned to. About this character: The main character (his best friend) and his guardian are responsible for killing his guardian. This kid wanted to make his guardian strong enough to fight like the main character's, so he went through unsavory means to do it. He did it because he wanted to be a "strong hero" like his deceased father. They ended up fighting with the main character and ultimately the guardian was killed. So for the past chapter, he's been avoiding the main character and hanging around by himself. He finds a new guardian partner and this is only the second scene with them. Now he's holed up in his room being sad for himself, although angst is part of it. I plan for the new guardian to use it's ESP to make him realize that he doesn't need power to be a "hero". It's the transition from angsty emo-ness to a psychadelic trip into the kid's head that has me stuck. I mean, eventually I'll think of something I'll like but it never hurts to hear advice. Edit: Nevermind, I came up with something that didn't suck. Edited January 20, 2009 by Metal Arc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnell Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I've got a question. Should I use romance in my story? I'm not currently planning to, but it seems like every other story I read does. So, basically, do you think a story isn't as good if it doesn't have romance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathiason Kx Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Hm...I have a question. I have a bad guy character, who is fighting two main characters of my story, so that he can obtain an item that the two are guarding. I want the bad guy to get the item, but I want one of the other characters to live, but I don't want the two guardians to seem like wimps. Any clues? (I also want the bad guy to seem really uber.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I've got a question. Should I use romance in my story? I'm not currently planning to, but it seems like every other story I read does. So, basically, do you think a story isn't as good if it doesn't have romance? Of you can write a romance if you want to. But be warned: when you write a bad romance, it can really, really stink. Hopefully, these will give you some help: - http://limyaael.livejournal.com/138911.html - http://limyaael.livejournal.com/275822.html - http://limyaael.livejournal.com/377262.html Hm...I have a question. I have a bad guy character, who is fighting two main characters of my story, so that he can obtain an item that the two are guarding. I want the bad guy to get the item, but I want one of the other characters to live, but I don't want the two guardians to seem like wimps. Any clues? (I also want the bad guy to seem really uber.) First of all, the correct term to use is "antagonist", or "villain" at the least. "Bad guy character" really makes it sound as though you have not put much thought into making complex characters. Second of all, I cannot really see a way out of this: - If the villain is "uber", I cannot see how the two would survive beside the villain doing something idiotic and cliché. - Potentially: if there is the possibility of one of them escaping, you could do that... running away from a fight you know you cannot win does not make one a wimp, nor a coward. - Does this villain really have to fight to get the item? If he is meant to be intelligent, something involving craft would make more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathiason Kx Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Well, he doesn't necessarily want to fight the two, but the two protagonists are fighting to prevent the antagonist from getting the object. Which he wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Well, he doesn't necessarily want to fight the two, but the two protagonists are fighting to prevent the antagonist from getting the object. Which he wants. Well, this is pretty hard to think about, since all I have to work with are faceless people. Tell me a little bit about what the antagonist is like please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathiason Kx Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The two protagonists' names are Galen and Daen, and they are both albinos. The antagonist is Arzu. Daen is a huge, huge man, and wields a sword that looks like the buster sword from FF. He is the more experienced member of the two. He is also Galen's teacher. Galen is more like a trueblade. He uses swords, and is extremely nimble and swift. Arzu is on a mission to steal the "object" from these two, so that he can...*names evil quest that I don't really want to say without revealing too much of the plot* Arzu is a bad guy, but an honorable one. He can use magic and swords. He won't kill unless he is forced to. Galen and Daen are both part of an organization on preventing anyone from taking the "item." They are determined and strong. Is that good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Alrighty then. Arzu is a bad guy, but an honorable one. This is rather contradictory don't think; why would a "bad guy" give a damn about honour? It sounds to me like this "honour" he has is just a plot device to stop him killing the protagonists. If he really has those kind of morals, then he's not really a "bad guy" is he? He won't kill unless he is forced to. But again, ask yourself: what REAL reason does the antagonist have for not just wiping them off the face of the planet? If he does not want to kill them, when why does he fight instead of taking a craftier route? I just takes a bit of common sense to ask these questions. Edited January 23, 2009 by Shuuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathiason Kx Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Perhaps their isn't a craftier route? He has to get the item, and there is no other way to get it, than by killing the two protagonists. Also, why can't bad guys have honor? I mean, it wouldn't make him the generic bad guy, or the cruelest, but he does have honor. Also, he's not the main antagonist, he's a...henchman, kind of. I want the main bad guy to seem more cruel and evil. Like Ashnard and BK. BK was a bad guy, yet he wasn't mean or cruel. Ashnard was far more the generic bad guy. Edited January 23, 2009 by Dathiason Kx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Also, why can't bad guys have honor? You don't quite get it; if this person has honour, is he really a "bad guy"? I want the main bad guy to seem more cruel and evil. Like Ashnard and BK. BK was a bad guy, yet he wasn't mean or cruel. Ashnard was far more the generic bad guy. You do realise you just contradicted yourself there? And second of all, did you not once think of making an antagonist who is bit more interesting and believable than cliché cruel and evil ("evil" being an entirely subjective thing)? This whole problem comes down to your black and white sense of morality. Edited January 23, 2009 by Shuuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathiason Kx Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 You don't quite get it; if this person has honour, is he really a "bad guy"? Well, he might not be the worst of bad guys, but if he is still doing something that isn't a good thing, he might be.... You do realise you just contradicted yourself there? And second of all, did you not once think of making an antagonist who is bit more interesting and believable than cliché cruel and evil ("evil" being an entirely subjective thing)? My antagonists are going to be more than just generic. They are going to have certain ticks, hatreds, and likes. Their personalities are going to be unique, also. (Note, I'm no good at debating, so if my arguments seem....petty and insignificant I'm doing the best I can, lol.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Well, he might not be the worst of bad guys, but if he is still doing something that isn't a good thing, he might be.... By who's definition of what "good" is? My antagonists are going to be more than just generic. They are going to have certain ticks, hatreds, and likes. Their personalities are going to be unique, also. Well, cruel is hardly a rare trait in ordinary antagonists. Making a someone into a believable and interesting character is more than just a personality, or a few likes and dislikes. Consider these very important things: - Motivations (note that I say motivations, not motivation). - Relationships and interactions. - Ideology and opinions. All three of these are departments where most antagonists are usually undeveloped in: - Do the goals of your antagonist solely revolve around doing something with the quest item? - Is there actually a good reason for the antagonists to believe in what they believe in? - Could you create a believable argument in favour of what your antagonists are doing? How does this argument compare to the one the protagonist uses? Some things that might be worth reading: - http://limyaael.livejournal.com/138379.html - http://limyaael.livejournal.com/310509.html - http://limyaael.livejournal.com/367974.html - http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html (some hints on how to make villains who are not idiots) Edited January 23, 2009 by Shuuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathiason Kx Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Wow...you're very analytical. How did you learn all this? What if Arzu is working for the main antagonist, but isn't necessarily a "bad guy" but is working against his better instincts. Like, he's being forced to do it. Like, the main antagonist has some sort of hold on him, either physical or mental. Edited January 23, 2009 by Dathiason Kx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 What if Arzu is working for the main antagonist, but isn't necessarily a "bad guy" but is working against his better instincts. Like, he's being forced to do it. Like, the main antagonist has some sort of hold on him, either physical or mental. That could work if you develop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathiason Kx Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Hm...alright, I've scrapped everything I had for the prologue, now that I have some new ideas, I'm going to start writing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnell Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I have a question. Since I am doing a story set in the FE world, I'd like to know the names of several common outfit pieces in the series. In the image below, what is the shoulder armor on Greil called? And what would you call the long jacket/shirt he is wearing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dathiason Kx Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hm...that's a good question. I would assume that his shoulder armor piece is a shoulder guard, but the shirt/skirt looking thing is out of my reach for now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.