H5 Tier list topic

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This is why you check movement before doing stuff. lol

It's simple though. You have a bunch of units you want to kill off block the bandits to the north, and go west with units you're actually going to use to fight those bandits. Lena comes to your group, but Wrys helps more.

Fighters all rape the hell out of Lena. Not really the Hunters, but Hunters are easy to kill before they get to you.

Mistakes happen. Your only point for Wrys >>> Lena in C3 is that he comes with heal (you could give it some1 else by the end of C2 you know. >_>) That's debunked because Lena will reach your army before Wrys uses it (assuming you're playing efficiently).

Edited March 1, 2009 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

Whichever unit you actually use will help more, but for the purposes of tiering, Lena has a slight lead.

[Lord Raven]

Mistakes happen.

I'm aware Wrys makes everything less flexible, but you're not getting him hit by the Hunters unless you're a fuckwad in video games.

Your only point for Wrys >>> Lena in C3 is that he comes with heal (you could give it some1 else by the end of C2 you know. >_>) That's debunked because Lena will reach your army before Wrys uses it (assuming you're playing efficiently).

Efficiently? By turn 3, you can easily get the Pirates to attack Jagen, then have your units feast and/or rape their corpses. Lena hasn't reached your group at this point. And then you can heal people up for the Hunters, who you can easily prevent from attacking Wrys anyway. When Lena comes around, sure she's more useful with Heal, but until then? Wrys has that Heal, and Lena is too far to the north while your shitty units are getting killed.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. I'm aware Wrys makes everything less flexible, but you're not getting him hit by the Hunters unless you're a fuckwad in video games.

2. Efficiently? By turn 3, you can easily get the Pirates to attack Jagen, then have your units feast and/or rape their corpses. Lena hasn't reached your group at this point. And then you can heal people up for the Hunters, who you can easily prevent from attacking Wrys anyway. When Lena comes around, sure she's more useful with Heal, but until then? Wrys has that Heal, and Lena is too far to the north while your shitty units are getting killed.

1. I can respond to that by saying "mistakes happen" again >_>.

2. Lena's near your group after moving her in the 2nd turn >_>.

[Rodykitty]

I'm aware Wrys makes everything less flexible, but you're not getting him hit by the Hunters unless you're a fuckwad in video games.

And then you can heal people up for the Hunters, who you can easily prevent from attacking Wrys anyway.

Nobody ever said that Rena's durability lead was significant, but when two units' performances are practically equal, when deciding on their tier position, we have to break the tie SOMEHOW unless they're exactly the same in every single way (including availability).

[Lord Raven]

And guess what's breaking the tie? Being able to heal while getting attacked by Pirates. :|

1. I can respond to that by saying "mistakes happen" again >_>.

And I can respond to that by saying "when playing efficiently, you can't afford to make mistakes."

2. Lena's near your group after moving her in the 2nd turn >_>.

Not really if you're rushing the West pirates. Edited March 1, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

And I can respond to that by saying "when playing efficiently, you can't afford to make mistakes.[/i]

Not really if you're rushing the West pirates.

1. You can't but they happen anyway.

2. Except rushing the west pirates = bad because you're leaving Lena behind. You gonna leave a 5 move Cleric when there's several 7 and 6 move units right behind her?

[Rodykitty]

My only problem is that this strategy requires sacrificing units apparently, which is something that could be done to benefit you on any chapter.

[Lord Raven]

You have to have them dead by C6, right?

C4 is easy as hell. You can take the northeast pretty easily (especially if you class change replacements to Mages, and keep your Archers/Snipers), as well as take out the Thief, leaving only the Cavaliers. Which still aren't too bad. From there it's just lure and kill.

C5 you can kill plenty of units off that come with Hardin. Pretty much everyone but Wolf and Sedgar.

C6 is easy enough without killing units.

Then you have C6x for your EXP needs. Enjoy. It adds to efficiency, both immediate and future.

1. You can't but they happen anyway.

So in the "perfect run" which is the "efficient run" you're not going to get Wrys attacked by a Hunter.

2. Except rushing the west pirates = bad because you're leaving Lena behind. You gonna leave a 5 move Cleric when there's several 7 and 6 move units right behind her?

Efficiently? By turn 3, you can easily get the Pirates to attack Jagen, then have your units feast and/or rape their corpses. Lena hasn't reached your group at this point. And then you can heal people up for the Hunters, who you can easily prevent from attacking Wrys anyway. When Lena comes around, sure she's more useful with Heal, but until then? Wrys has that Heal, and Lena is too far to the north while your shitty units are getting killed. Edited March 1, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

Alright, then it looks like Wrys can be above Rena since there are situations where he can be used earlier than her.

But I highly disagree with several statements still. Even if Ch. 3 is the most useful chapter to kill units on, there is no defined strategy here, otherwise there would only be two tiers: Being used, and not being used.

I also highly disagree that we can't take account small factors if we absolutely have to. If you guys were perfectly alright with arguing over Cain & Abel's microscopic differences, then microscopic differences between Lena and Wrys should be discussed, even if you can come up with a strategy that negates things.

[dondon151]

I also highly disagree that we can't take account small factors if we absolutely have to. If you guys were perfectly alright with arguing over Cain & Abel's microscopic differences, then microscopic differences between Lena and Wrys should be discussed, even if you can come up with a strategy that negates things.

The difference between Kain and Abel is hardly microscopic.

[Rodykitty]

The difference between Kain and Abel is hardly microscopic.

Whatever you say.

[Lord Raven]

You mean the ability to use Javelins from Chapter 1 isn't microscopic?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You mean the ability to use Javelins from Chapter 1 isn't microscopic?

Chapter 2, chapter 3 as well. Ridersbane in chapter 5 and other earlygame chapters with cavaliers. On average, first of the 2 to double.

[Rodykitty]

I was actually thinking of in the Normal Tier list when in the prologue and Chapter 1 it had to come down to 50% chance to level up a stat. THAT'S microscoptic.

[thanibomb]

Here Chainey.

Why Est does not suck:

Why does she suck? If you've been leveling Catria and Paola (which you should be because they are amazing), they should be with you during the chapter Est appears. She's easily trainable with her Knightkiller all the Sable Orders running around, and each of the kills would give her a level up. Not to mention making her the starter of the Triangle attack OHKOs any of the Sable Order reinforcements that appear in the fortresses in the bottom left section of the map.

And the chapter after that gives her more experience, too.

[Rodykitty]

I'm not sure if that info is for Normal Mode or not, but for H5 she isn't going to be killing anything by herself. Ridersbane has 24 mt against horses + Est's 5 attack = 29 Attack vs. 5-9 Def, and enemies range from 37-45 HP. No way she's going to double them or eat a counter attack either.

So triangle attack is her only hope. I might drop her out of her own tier if it is reliable enough (I know BB doesn't think it's good, though most people are bound to disagree).

[Dat Nick]

forcing a meh unit in play, said meh unit being palla just so Est won't suck=bad

furthermore, as mentioned before a billion times, it's not just Est starting weak, it's Est STAYING weak. her growths kinda suck. Even if you promote her to 20/1 she still needs to be babysitted since her HP blows.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[thanibomb]

I didn't have to baby her at all. I haven't looked at the tier list, but Paola's growths aren't that far off from Catria's and IIRC Est's growths (except for Res and Def) are all above 50%.

And its not like you're forced to use her. She flies straight to Marth and is able to fight right away. The Cavaliers/Paladins are easy pickings for her especially if you weaken them a little with your other units who shouldn't be able to double them anyway. If you don't want to risk counterattacks, just let her aim for the Horsemen or let her finish up the triangle attack for a OHKO.

I positioned the three sisters around the fortresses so that I could pull off 2-3 triangle attacks on the reinforcements that appear, and by the time they are done with, Est should be at least level 11 or 12 and already caught up with Catria and Paola.

[Rodykitty]

furthermore, as mentioned before a billion times, it's not just Est starting weak, it's Est STAYING weak. her growths kinda suck. Even if you promote her to 20/1 she still needs to be babysitted since her HP blows.

This exaggeration of her growths sucking needs to stop. She's only taking a few more damage at 20/1 than 20/1 Abel/Cain.

Anyway, yes, Est can be babied to gain levels, but so can any other character. I already have the opinion that Catria is way too high on the tier list. I'll put Est out of her own tier, but she's still going to be Bottom of Bottom.

Also, on your comment on Palla's growths not being far off from Catria's, Palla's growths are extremely far off in speed.

[thanibomb]

This exaggeration of her growths sucking needs to stop. She's only taking a few more damage at 20/1 than 20/1 Abel/Cain.

Anyway, yes, Est can be babied to gain levels, but so can any other character. I already have the opinion that Catria is way too high on the tier list. I'll put Est out of her own tier, but she's still going to be Bottom of Bottom.

Also, on your comment on Palla's growths not being far off from Catria's, Palla's growths are extremely far off in speed.

Its not really babying if she's a part of the triangle attack, right? And even without it, she could hold her own against the Sable Order with healing assistance.

[Rodykitty]

And even without it, she could hold her own against the Sable Order with healing assistance.

Lol no.

Its not really babying if she's a part of the triangle attack, right?

You can use the triangle attack to get kills, but other units are going to be getting kills too. If you're getting her to level 11 or 12, then you've definitely babied her.

The triangle attack is the only reason I brought her out of fail tier.

EDIT: I really need to lower Catria as well. She can take out Mages on Ch. 15 by herself, but she's not guaranteed the Pegasus Reinforcements on Ch. 14.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Chainey

[thanibomb]

Lol no.

You can use the triangle attack to get kills, but other units are going to be getting kills too. If you're getting her to level 11 or 12, then you've definitely babied her.

The triangle attack is the only reason I brought her out of fail tier.

EDIT: I really need to lower Catria as well. She can take out Mages on Ch. 15 by herself, but she's not guaranteed the Pegasus Reinforcements on Ch. 14.

Yeah, she can hold them on her own after a a few level ups. What character doesn't need some assistance at first? Its not like she's Nino or someone who absolutely NEEDS to be babied. You could completely ignore her the chapter she appears and level her up in the next chapter. There are tons of mercs and archers standing around waiting to be killed.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Yeah, she can hold them on her own after a a few level ups. What character doesn't need some assistance at first? Its not like she's Nino or someone who absolutely NEEDS to be babied. You could completely ignore her the chapter she appears and level her up in the next chapter. There are tons of mercs and archers standing around waiting to be killed.

Nino is the Est of FE7 >_>.

Est needs babying.

[thanibomb]

Nino is the Est of FE7 >_>.

Est needs babying.

But unlike Nino, Est could actually kill the enemies the chapter she appears in. Even in H5, she could take out 1/2 or more of the Cavalier and Paladin HP, and the Horsemen would just be easy pickings for her. There are no ranged bosses or hordes of enemies everywhere on the map waiting to murder her.