H5 Tier list topic

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm kind of not liking how Rody and his sidekick B2BD seem to have final say in everything with the tier list, no matter how convincing an arguement somebody else makes (Ninji). I think its time somebody else started to manage the tier list like ThunderMan if he's up to it. This just doesn't seem fair to somebody like Ninji who effectively argues his case using statistics, etc and gets a "lol no" in return.

That's because Ninji is overexaggerating the net gain Rickard has. Thief utility is seriously hurt by redundancy in this game, and his non existant combat abilities hurt him even more.

I won't deny that Rickard has utility, but I don't see it superior as Midia as a whole. Midia even has instautility herself as a Bishop. To argue that Rickard is better than Midia is absolutely absurd.

I'm going to put Rickard > Arran, but leave him in that tier for now. Even Est can do something, even if it's minute, so being in the same tier isn't so unreasonable for me.

That would be?

[Rodykitty]

I would be a fool to deny that Est can give one of her sisters an instant kill. Sure, it's cumbersome, but it's something. She can also meat shield or block a fort.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I would be a fool to deny that Est can give one of her sisters an instant kill. Sure, it's cumbersome, but it's something. She can also meat shield or block a fort.

While Rickard doing the door and chest opening means you don't have to make someone else do it as well as removing the need for keys or forcing Mart to open chests so he too can see combat and give out his supports.

It doesn't cost 3 deployment slots and you're bashing thief utility for its redundancy while Est and the triangle attack are the epitome of this, an indirect attacker can weaken an enemy for the other 2 sisters to kill. That only costs 2 slots as opposed to 3 and the indirect attacker gets EXP in addition to the pegasus sister that finished off the enemy for what it's worth.

Edited August 28, 2009 by ?!

[Rodykitty]

Most of the game can unlock doors for someone else without needing EXP, albiet through door keys. Case in point, Julian and Rickard aren't the only ones that can provide this sort of efficiency when it comes to doors.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Most of the game can unlock doors for someone else without needing EXP, albiet through door keys. Case in point, Julian and Rickard aren't the only ones that can provide this sort of efficiency when it comes to doors.

Doesn't change the fact that they provide it at no (which saves you money for more forges) and that IT IS EFFICIENT WHILE EST AND ARRAN ARE NOT. Rickard could probably go above Lorenz as well, the guy just lacks the availability to be of much use and he's facing rape pretty damn soon.

Efficient usefulness =/= Est tier.

[Rodykitty]

Fine. I'm just sick of punishing Est just because she's Est.

[Colonel M]

Anyway IOS, yes my main reason is to go back to Roger vs. Athena. In particular you missed that he can double some Pirates in C9, so at least he obtains a slight net win. I unno... something just feels up my sleeve is all.

[Dat Nick]

Who actually thinks it's possible for Lorenz to be in Est tier? Single-hit chip damage is really the only thing he has going for him.

It's barely any better than what Arran has, and...well, you see where he is.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Joker

[Colonel M]

Lorenz can actually survive a Brave assault and chip a DracoKnight with a Silver Bow. He can at least finish a Paladin off with a Ridersbane.

His utility isn't much, but he's got it.

[Dat Nick]

Lorenz can actually survive a Brave assault and chip a DracoKnight with a Silver Bow. He can at least finish a Paladin off with a Ridersbane.

Arran can do the latter two as well though, and look what it does for him. I'm not seeing a possible durability win against braves warranting a tier gap.

[Colonel M]

Arran can do one or the other. Lorenz can do both.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Nothing warrants a tier gap between them.

Arran can do one or the other. Lorenz can do both.

That probably being the reason by Lorenz > Arran but it certainly does not warrant a tier gap. Arran does have availability to compensate a bit but apparently it's not enough if this is why he's below Lorenz.

Edited August 28, 2009 by ?!

[Colonel M]

I have no issue. As long as Lorenz > Arran.

[Rodykitty]

If people agree, then I would be more than happy to remove the tier gap between Arran & Lorenz.

[Quasar]

Not that I want to bring up tier list drama again but I think this list has been managed really well. Not only because the person managing it has high activity on the forums and has created meaningful rules for the list so people can fight fairly and not resort to low blows all the damn time (see: FE8 tier list recently). It's kind of misleading to say a change was suggested and BS refused to make that change because he's stubborn. Joker and Robo Ky were against it as well. Not that you can't create a new list, but let's say someone does. What if you suggest a change in that list and some people are against it. What are you going to do, form a third list?

[Dat Nick]

IOS's assumptions for statistics were misleading anyway: What happened is Ninji posted stats for Midia in C16 without saying what weapon she was using. I asked if he gave her silver to clarify, and he said yes. Before I could counter that [And tbh I don't feel like doing that tonight because I am really damned tired and I have better things to do than to respond to giant walls of text all night], IOS went into his little statistics fit. Apparently one set of unclear statistics that haven't had a chance to be countered makes for a better enough substantiated argument that you have a right to act like a jackass to the party you believe is incorrect these days [This was the only example of statistics posted]

I would ask that future usurpers of Chainey as head of the tier list understand the situation before they use it as evidence against him; I don't exactly appreciate being made out as his biased BFF because I hadn't had the opportunity to counter Ninji's one set of statistics.

I will as soon as I can find time.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Joker

[Rodykitty]

I want to say, I used enemy stats as well to determine that Rickard's durability was nonexistant, as well as Midia being able to survive enemies upon her joining.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Colonel M]

Midia can be alright, but it depends on how much use gets poured onto her... and how much we penalize her shittiness early on.

C16 I'd say she's good on 2RKOing the Cavs at least. C15 she can at least ORKO Mages and come borderline on Bishops. She won't double Paladins but the DracoKnights | Pegasi manifestation in C21 and C22 gives her a decent way of denting shit. C23 I'm not sure on her ORKOing w/LongBows because I remember Jeorge at max Level could barely pull it off (22 Atk is a bit iffy...).

[Rodykitty]

I never claimed she was great (she dropped below Samson and Astoria like a fly), though I can see how one might interpret me as saying so because comparing Rickard to somebody will make most people look great.

[Colonel M]

Well Midia is bad. Though, in comparison to Rickard... yeah... loads better combat-wise.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Athena can go cleric route and reach level 20 by the end of chapter 10 if we allow other units like roger to farm some reinforcements so she can heal them. Thanks to her bases she won't be hurt by going priest route as much as other units might be. Priest gives her a 45 growth to speed as well which is something she needs. She prob will have to waste a warp stave usage or two but with the number of warp staves/uses in this game I don't think anyone is gonna care.

Edit: Got rid of the wasting a warp or two... VERY BAD WAY TO WORD THAT

Her bases as a sniper if she went cleric:

37 (38) HP

13 Strength

2 Mag

14 (15) Skill

16 (17) Speed

8 Luck

10 Defense

6 Res (she should gain a point or two after promotion thanks to dynamics)

C rank in bows.

Her durability is pretty damn solid and she can provide excellent chip damage at a range improving her mid game immensely. She will also have the additional benefit of a better res stat and C rank staves before promotion so the tier player can always switch her into bishop near the endgame if the lack of strength starts to hurt her.

Her bases as a sniper if she went archer route to level 20 and promoted (I know pegasi prior to promotion is her best class but I am gonna assume archer though for this comparison cause of the superior growth rates/bow ranking):

39 (40) HP

15 (16) Strength

1 Mag

15 (16) Skill

17 (18) Speed

8 Luck

11 Defense

3 Res

She should have an A rank in bows upon promotion as well. But she will promote much later (generally I think 5 chapters later at the minimum) than cleric athena.

By the time archer athena promote's cleric athena would be near A rank in bows. One thing to consider would be going pegasi/archer for a little while and then switching into cleric to finish off and reach promotion quicker.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Lancelot

[Rodykitty]

I would say level 15 or 16 is a more reasonable par for Cleric leveling by C10.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Colonel M]

Even so, I've had Roger hit Level 10 by C11. Assuming he got the Seal:

10/1 Roger - 29 HP | 11 Str | 12 Skl | 18 Spd | 6 Luck | 9 Def

Barely 2RKOed (he needs 2 more HP which isn't too difficult) and he practically doubles forever. On top of that, his Spd growth becoes 30%, so building that stat isn't difficult. Of course it's better to wait but... you get the point.

Then again, if Fighter->Hero! isn't good enough, there's always my secret weapon...

[Colonel M]

Samson > Astram:

Astoria* / Astram*

Class Options

Hero

Yeah, you're looking at his practical option. There isn't much more to speak of. Unfortunately.

Overview

Alright, so many bash Astram because he's useless. Well... he is. He's not terrible to a fault like his girlfriend, but he has issues. Let's begin with the minor things. First off, Astram has decent Str growth to make up for his poor stat. Unfortunately, he can't fix his Spd stat so easily. A 20% growth and 14 base can only do so much to a unit. Unlike Roger, he doesn't have much time to work on it nor a promotion helping him. Though, let's just review for the sake of it. His joining chapter he's not terrible to a fault. 2RKOed like the rest of the team in his joining chapter so I can't really call him out on durability. Offensively, Silver Sword nets him 22 Atk, so he's not looking too shabby in front of the Ballistae since he's 2RKOing. So then we look at C14 and we notice a couple of things. First off, the AS for Archers and Cavaliers fluctuate. This is BAD for Astram because he can't reliably double them. Then, let's factor in his 8 Str. Injury to the insult, he can't wield a Steel Axe. So he's locked to Hand Axes at best if he wants offense, and he desperately needs every bit of it. Luckily his Silver Sword gives him +1 Atk over the Steel Axe, so the injury is not all that bad. He can tackle Armor Knights with an Armorslayer, but with 7 Mt and facing WTD it's 2RKOing unless we forge it. With Silver Sword, Astram is barely pulling a 2RKO if he doubles. To show how close he is, he barely ORKOes a 36 HP | 10 Def Cavalier. C15 is a Magefest so it's a mixed blessing. Hand Axe sports 16 Atk, and unfortunately Mages can sport 24-26 HP | 3-4 Def. When a unit barely ORKOes Mages (misses out on some too) you know something is wrong. C16 is nightmare since everyone has 11 AS or over now. Only the Generals and Armor Knights are seeing lower than that. Even with a level per chapter, we're seeing a 40% chance of not doubling these buffoons. Oh well, at least he can almost wield a Steel Axe with no AS loss now.

Everything seems to get worse and worse after that, so I'll just stop there. You can easily spot the problems with Astram as early as C14. Not a good sign. He has support with Midia and Boah, but seeing this guy longer than C16 is pretty doubtful.

Conclusion

At best, Astram has minor utility. That's about it for him. He might level up and... do okay, but he's certainly not keeping up with the team. It's better to use him for a marginal amount of time and just get rid of him. If you seriously plan to use Astram past C15, hope to God that you get +1 Spd.

Overall Rating: 2/10

Samson*

Class Options

Hero

You're practically looking at it.

Overview

I'm safely going to say utility-wise, Samson > Astram. Though they seem identically similair, let's review:

Base Astram - 26 HP | 8 Str | 14 Skl | 14 Spd | 3 Luck | 8 Def | 3 Res

Base Samson - 24 HP | 10 Str | 14 Skl | 16 Spd | 7 Luck | 9 Def | 3 Res

Wait, Astram gets levels right? Alright, let's be fair and give him 3 levels:

Astram - 28.7 HP | 9.5 Str | 15.2 Skl | 14.6 Spd | 4.5 Luck | 8.3 Def | 3 Res

Ouch. Astram still loses to Samson. Then we look at weapon choices:

Astram (Silver Sword) - 25 Atk

Samson (Silver Axe) - 24 Atk

Then again, WTD puts Astram back down to 21! Atk. To add the injury to the insult, the AS figures for Cavaliers are about 11, sometimes 12. C18 they all have 12 AS. Astram still needs levels to grasp at that, while Samson can double them all at base. Weapon selection, Astram does have Wyrmslayer and probably the Axes eventually, but Samson is guaranteed his Silver Axe, Hammer, and Poleaxe hilarity. Sure there's the lack of Wyrmslayer to address, but even so Astram needed to build WEXP to get the important Axes.

Samson can 2RKO the Cavaliers and prevent being doubled for most of his career (C16-20). Only Mamkutes can double him, though that is a given at this point. So, he functions as a minor combat utility character. Forget about survivng by C20 at base, but even so Samson wasn't a total detriment beforehand. The man deserves credit for being more RNG-proof than Astram is, so that's props for him.

Conclusion

More of a comparison, but you get the point. Samson joins and he does... alright. He can wield certain weapons to the situation and function. He 2RKOes unpromoted units (unpromoted Armor Knights get stuck on a ORKO) and has slayer weapons to make ORKOes out of Cavs. Not a very good unit, but at least has a few perks. B rank Axes and 16 Spd do decent favors even this late in the game.

Overal Rating: 2.5/10

Man Astram is as sad as his girlfriend.

So to put it into perspective...

I mentioned that C13 Astram can at least 2RKO Ballistae. Good enough. So C14, let's run them down individually:

Chapter 14

1 Shooter [lvl 3]

5 Archer [lvl 7]

2 Priest [1 lvl 12 1 lvl 7]

6 Armor [1 lvl 11 rest lvl 7]

4 Cav [lvl 7]

2 Thief [1 lvl 7 1 lvl 9]

1 Sniper [lvl 3]

Archer:

32 (33) HP

23 atk

104 (105) hit

10 (11) AS

7 def

0 (1) res

NOTE: Two have forged longbows equal to silver bow stats.

Silver Sword!Astram pulls a 2RKO 50% of the time. It's a 3HKO in other words. Using the Iron Axe (15 Atk) he can 2RKO sometimes, or 3RKO sometimes. It's all reliant on that Spd stat.

Cav:

35 (36) HP

27 (2 atk

103 (104) hit

10 (11) AS

9 (10) def

0 (1) res

I think I mentioned that Astram 2RKOes these guys with WTD. He pulls 18 damage per round. Again, this is 50% of the time again.

Sniper:

42 HP

26 atk

115 hit

16 AS

8 def

4 res

3RKO with the Silver Sword.

Armor 7:

37 HP

27 atk silver lance, 26 horseslayer, 25 jav

103 (104) hit all

4 (5) AS

12 def

1 res

Armor 11:

41 HP

29 atk

104 hit

5 AS

13 def

1 res

ORKO with the Armorslayer

Thief 7:

28 HP

21 atk

109 hit

17 AS

3 def

Thief 9:

30 HP

22 atk

110 hit

18 AS

3 def

2RKO. Keep in mind the Thief (Level 9) can double Astram.

Boss: Jiol

48 HP

30 atk

103 hit

9 AS

16 def

3 res

2RKO (36/48 damage).

C15 I mentioned he cannot ORKO with the Hand Axe. He can ORKO with any other weapon though. Skip to C16 when we get Samson. Assume 3 levels like I did for Astram up there in the comparison.

Astram - 28.7 HP | 9.5 Str | 15.2 Skl | 14.6 Spd | 4.5 Luck | 8.3 Def | 3 Res

Base Samson - 24 HP | 10 Str | 14 Skl | 16 Spd | 7 Luck | 9 Def | 3 Res

Astram (Silver Sword) - 25 Atk

Samson (Silver Axe) - 24 Atk

C16

3 Horseman [2 lvl 6 1 lvl 8]

3 Wyvern [lvl 6]

6 Cav [2 lvl 10 3 lvl 8 1 lvl 6]

1 General [lvl 2]

1 Paladin [lvl4]

1 Priest [lvl 8]

2 Hero [lvl 4]

Horseman 6:

36 HP

22 atk

108 hit

16 AS

6 (7) def

3 res

Horseman 8: [Forged killer bow]

37 HP

23 atk

118 hit

16 AS

7 def

4 res

Samson can 2RKO the 36 HP | 6 Def. Astram can 2RKO the 7 Def.

Wyvern:

42 HP

Atk: 26 Poleax, 27 Horseslayer, 28 Silver Lance

103 hit

16 AS

11 (12) def

4 res

With WTD, Astram 5RKOes. Samson 4RKOes.

Hero:

40 (41) HP

28 atk, 19 Thunder sword [Res hit]

115 hit, 126 Thunder Sword

17 (1 AS

10 def

3 res

Samson 4RKOes. Astram 3RKOes.

Cav 6:

34 HP

26 atk [Horseslayer]

104 hit

11 AS

8 def

1 res

26 damage (if Astram gets his Spd point). 32 damage with Samson.

Cav 8: [2 Jav 1 silver sword]

35 (36) HP

28 atk [26 Javelin]

109 hit [105 Javelin]

11 AS

9 def

1 res

I'll assume both get WTD. With Astram it's 24 damage. If it's Samson it's 28 damage.

Cav 10: [1 Armorslayer, 1 Horseslayer]

37 HP

27 atk

105 hit (110 Armorslayer)

11 (12) AS

10 def

1 res

Same situation. Astram does 22 damage. Samson does 24 damage. BUT Astram can't double this dude sometimes.

Paladin:

43 HP

29 atk

107 hit

15 AS

10 def

7 res

I dunno what weapon he has so I'll assume worst and best can scenario. If worst, Astram does 11 damage (4RKO) while Samson does 13 damage (also a 4RKO). If not, Astram does 15 damage (3RKO) and Samson does 14 damage (4RKO).

General:

45 HP

29 atk

106 hit

9 AS

15 def

4 res

Boss: Holsard

50 HP

31 atk [Forged Killer Lance. And bow.]

113 hit

10 AS

17 def

3 res

2RKO.

C17

3 Bishop Lvl 4

2 Sniper Lvl 4

2 Mamkute Lvl 12

1 Hero lvl 4

4 Armor 1 lvl 10 3 lvl 8

2 Thief 1 lvl 12 1 lvl 10

4 Mage 1 lvl 10 3 lvl 8

...They're both practically the same. Main difference is when Astram gets WTD.

Alright, I guess Astram can pull a win. Though the main issue here is the AS... which is his borderline.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[_____]

Seriously, even if you don't believe Rickard > Midia (even though I showed a huge-ass list of what Rickard can steal that 90% of the cast can't and your only retort for that was "loldoesn'tcount", which makes no fucking sense), Rickard > Tomas was agreed upon.