H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

I'm saddened by hte lack of attention Gordon's getting.

Did you know Gordon can survive a volley of the chapter 4 Archers at level 3, while Castor needs to be level 8? Also with more Luck and Skill+possible supports with Marth and Draug, he will have more accuracy on hte counter. What? He won't be nearby?

Someone's not looking at the area by the arena. The horsemen can be distracted this way, and Gordon can easily reach there in relevent time, if he's not near there already. He can counter with Steel, and Marth can cross to finish with theRapier. Second Horseman comes in, Shiida Wing Spears, Marth finishes with Rapier.

Not only am I THAT closer to the village, I'm THAT closer to the boss, and am free to have Shiida go at 'im while Marth goes for Maric. All this would happen while your main group goes south and kills the armor+2 archers. All that would be left is a quiet stroll northwards.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Rodykitty]

I'll move Gordon up for now, since it'll be better to argue him down in the end, though I have no arguments myself for it.

[grandjackal]

Another advantage-Not getting Brave-raped.

[Colonel M]

Few comments:

1) I don't advocate Curate->Sniper for Vyland because it's just... yeah. B2BD made it fairly clear: just wonky. The Cav setup gives him a little time of improvement and at least can chip things from afar. Mov helps too.

2) Gordon... dunno. Archer still seems wonky in general to argue with.

3) Rickard. I think Rickard is definitely over Elice. Granted, Elice has the capability of being a pinch healer / warper, but Rickard can at least build some sort of utility over time. I'm assuming Elice was moved down anyway (being over Samson and Astram I'd question a bit).

[Rodykitty]

1) I don't advocate Curate->Sniper for Vyland because it's just... yeah. B2BD made it fairly clear: just wonky. The Cav setup gives him a little time of improvement and at least can chip things from afar. Mov helps too.

This is why Vyland will pretty much remain above Matthis. I already feel he's better with the setup, but we know that he can function without it, which I think scores points for him.

[Colonel M]

Oh, I also question about Boah. I just realized he has B Tomes. (Why I didn't notice it before I dunno)... perhaps he can pull a Jeorge and nuke some flying things with the remainders (with 1 of course) of Excalibur? I mean, what the fuck is Roshe doing anyway?

Another thing, Ninji mentioned IOS and Slize disagreeing with Thomas and Midia > Rickard. I want to hear what they say about the subject before I really take a side to this.

[grandjackal]

Arguing archer isn't a problem, since he gains nothing from waiting from promotion, and prior to it he's fine enough, if a tad slow moving. After promotion, he's perfectly usable.

As for Boah...*murders you* WHY MUST YOU BE RIGHT!? T.T

[Rodykitty]

Oh, I also question about Boah. I just realized he has B Tomes.

What the fizzeck? How did we not notice this before?

[Colonel M]

Oh, I also question about Boah. I just realized he has B Tomes.

What the fizzeck? How did we not notice this before?

Dunno. I kind of JUST noticed this in C12. (Lol playthrough).

I'd say Boah < Tiki is fine for now (meaning skip the 3 "alright let's fail" crew).

Edited September 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Boah > Etzel, I guess, though it's an availability advantage over having existing Mag, so...

[grandjackal]

*foaming at the mouth* RAGRAGRPRAGRBRAAAAAAAAAA-

I hate you Boah. I will kill you every playthrough now.

Anyways, anyone think Gordon could go higher? << >> << >>

[Rodykitty]

EDIT: Oh wait, we agree we want him below Wrys. Done that instead.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Quasar]

Since Rickard already is above four people his thieving utility obviously is worth something seeing how his other traits sure didn't get him there. Whether it's something worth more than Midia's combat I won't comment on but when/if arguing Julian it'd be nice to have equality with it. Obviously he has extra chapters but if his only job for a chapter would be to open chests it shouldn't be worth more than Rickard's effort at it.

[Colonel M]

I think Mid defines Julian well. It does take him some training in order to survive some impacts (Level 9 I think guarantees his survival except against Armor Knights. If not it's a little bit further).

[_____]

Matthis has healing from Chapters 4-10~. He is a positive.

He takes the Master Seal. That is a negative for him, but a minor one.

He becomes Minerva, but with 10 more HP at base. He's doing better/the same from this point on.

I go back to bitching about Rickard > Tomas, because now, it's pretty clear.

2.) The Master Seal doesn't count at all.

Matthis has healing from Chapters 4-10~. He is a positive.

He takes the Master Seal. No one gives a shit.

He becomes Minerva, but with 10 more HP at base. He's doing better/the same from this point on.

Taking a master seal matters when compared to units that don't use one. Yes, Rickard doesn't use one, but honestly, who gives a fuck? The man is useless at combat.

Please stop side-stepping around this. It's getting irritating.

So, you're making an exception for the rule just for Rickard? Sounds like you're just being biased against him. Also, Chainey said himself that he no longer considers taking a Master Seal a negative for a unit, so your comment really means nothing.

Well similar to how you place Gato and Nagi, I was thinking perhaps Rickard on bottom of Low or top of Bottom. I mean, looking at his friends in bottom tier, it looks they're just worthless combat units only a masochist would want to use >_>. Then look at who's at the bottom of Low tier, Elice. Yes I acknowledge that her A rank in staves is something but it's just there for C24, C24x and Final. While Rickard's utility is less significant to you (as you've made it apparent), it's there to help out efficiency for a longer period and just like with Elice's staff utility, it comes at no cost (unless you count fielding Julian in C6 as one but even then that's pretty minor).

Rickard closer to Elice.

3) Rickard. I think Rickard is definitely over Elice. Granted, Elice has the capability of being a pinch healer / warper, but Rickard can at least build some sort of utility over time. I'm assuming Elice was moved down anyway (being over Samson and Astram I'd question a bit).

You couldn't have come in when I was arguing against Jackal, BB, and Chainey alone? ;-; Would've saved me some headaches.

iluguys

Another thing, Ninji mentioned IOS and Slize disagreeing with Thomas and Midia > Rickard. I want to hear what they say about the subject before I really take a side to this.

Slize had a post about it.

Seems I remembered a bit wrong about IOS; he didn't give an opinion on Tomas/Midia vs. Rickard specifically, he gave one for something else.

[Dat Nick]

Since Rickard already is above four people his thieving utility obviously is worth something seeing how his other traits sure didn't get him there. Whether it's something worth more than Midia's combat I won't comment on but when/if arguing Julian it'd be nice to have equality with it. Obviously he has extra chapters but if his only job for a chapter would be to open chests it shouldn't be worth more than Rickard's effort at it.

Julian's position was never based on his thief utility, this has been said before.

So, you're making an exception for the rule just for Rickard?

Since he can't fight worth a shit and wouldn't even be able to get to the level required to Seal even if he could? Yes.

Also, Chainey said himself that he no longer considers taking a Master Seal a negative for a unit

Then I'm opposing that decision because not taking a seal is obviously>Taking one.

[_____]

Since he can't fight worth a shit and wouldn't even be able to get to the level required to Seal even if he could? Yes.

So, the fact that Rickard doesn't need a seal to be useful but Tomas does doesn't matter because Rickard is horrible at combat, even though Rickard's utility has nothing to do with combat?

Wow, you're right. You're totally unbiased. I'm sorry that my small mind couldn't comprehend such an obvious thing.

Then I'm opposing that decision because not taking a seal is obviously>Taking one.

You do that.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

Let's rephrase that:

Taking the Master Seal isn't a big negative. Though if you can function without it... it still nets a positive anyway. I mean this tier list still will favor prepromos (except Astram, Samson, Midia, and Arran the phailures). Why else is sir Zagaro and sir Wolf a tier of their own? Part of it goes to no Master Seal too.

[_____]

I realize that and I agree. What I don't agree with is "lolrickardsuckssowewon'tpenalizetomas".

[Rodykitty]

Since Rickard already is above four people his thieving utility obviously is worth something seeing how his other traits sure didn't get him there. Whether it's something worth more than Midia's combat I won't comment on but when/if arguing Julian it'd be nice to have equality with it. Obviously he has extra chapters but if his only job for a chapter would be to open chests it shouldn't be worth more than Rickard's effort at it.

Unlike Rickard, Julian has existing combat ability on H5, so he's allowed to rise on the tier list based on that.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Let's rephrase that:

Taking the Master Seal isn't a big negative. Though if you can function without it... it still nets a positive anyway. I mean this tier list still will favor prepromos (except Astram, Samson, Midia, and Arran the phailures). Why else is sir Zagaro and sir Wolf a tier of their own? Part of it goes to no Master Seal too.

See I'm not sure about midia. I think I am in agreement with rody on her having potential to rise. Bishop/Sage would be the class for her to rise in. The thing is while all of them except arran have more base speed than her she comes in earliest and will quickly catch up and surpass them speedwise before they even join the army. Bishop/Sage will give her the experience gain with staves to ensure this. Once she gets a high enough speed she can at least double mages/priests/generals/shooters (good luck getting her in range of one!) for the rest of the game which I think none of the other 3 can ever do as bishops/sages and she can tank the the mages with the higher res stat.

She also is only in competition with caeda/linde for aura so she can look forward to that towards the endgame. She is only gonna gain like 4 points of mag max but that's only 3/4 points away from gato.... And he isn't even doubling any more units than she is at endgame actually thanks to having 20 (22 max) AS. The only difference is he isn't getting doubled as much. I am not sure about his durability but I don't think we wanna leave him in range of anything really. Hell she's beating gato on finale thanks to aura by 1-2 points of damage depending on bishop/sage reclass.

[Candlejack]

How the f*ck did Bantu move out of Low/Bottom Tier?

Not a base stat above 5 (Not counting HP because its HP), his highest growth is 40% in HP, and he has a combined growth total of 120%. For reference:

Bases of Bantu:

HP: 25

STR: 4

MAG: 0

SKL: 3

SPD: 4 (He gets doubled by everything save Knights.)

LCK: 1

DEF: 3

RES: 1

Wow. Just wow. Now let's compare Average Stats to Arran.

BANTU:

31.6 HP

7.8 STR

2.9 MAG

8.8 SKL

6.9 SPD

3.9 LCK

5.9 DEF

1 RES

ARRAN:

29 HP

13 STR

1 MAG

11 SKL

15 SPD

8 LCK

15 SPD

11.5 DEF

6.5 RES

Arran has leads in STR, SKL, and DEF, and a large SPD lead. With a Brave, he'll O-KO Bantu. For the worst character in the game, he beats Bantu no problem.

Better yet, let's compare Bantu to the very first boss, Gazzak, when Bantu is at his highest, and then compare Gazzak's NM stats.

GAZZAK

24 HP

7 STR

0 MAG

3 SKL

8 SPD

0 LCK

6.9 DEF

0 RES

So, Bantu has tiny leads with STR, MAG, SKL, LCK, and RES, with the first and last ones truly mattering, but Gazzak, Vs. an average Lvl. 30 Bantu, has a lead in SPD and DEF.

The Chapter 1 boss in NORMAL MODE has a SPD and DEF lead against Average Bantu at Lvl. 30.

Move that trash above Rickard.

Characters in a lower tier who equal/higher than this amount.

Midia: 240%

Maria: 210%

Astram: 260%

Est: 285%/295%

Lorenz: 280%

Arran: 220%

The only people in ANY Fire Emblem who can come close to this much suckage is Niime, Dagda, and FE1 Jeigan. Even YODEL from FE6 has a higher growth % than Bantu.

The only person who is absolutely positively worse than Bantu is... himself. From FE1. 30% growth total.

[Rodykitty]

Why else is sir Zagaro and sir Wolf a tier of their own?

Because of how ridiculously broken they are, not because they don't need a master seal.

How the f*ck did Bantu move out of Low/Bottom Tier?

Because I know little about Bantu myself on H5, and need to constantly count on other people's word on the matter.

But it looks like you're basing him on a direct statistical comparison to Arran, while Bantu is around much earlier and Fire Dragon Stone will give him a nice Def boost to the level of Armor Knight.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

How the f*ck did Bantu move out of Low/Bottom Tier?

Not a base stat above 5 (Not counting HP because its HP), his highest growth is 40% in HP, and he has a combined growth total of 120%. For reference:

Bases of Bantu:

HP: 25

STR: 4

MAG: 0

SKL: 3

SPD: 4 (He gets doubled by everything save Knights.)

LCK: 1

DEF: 3

RES: 1

Wow. Just wow. Now let's compare Average Stats to Arran.

BANTU:

31.6 HP

7.8 STR

2.9 MAG

8.8 SKL

6.9 SPD

3.9 LCK

5.9 DEF

1 RES

ARRAN:

29 HP

13 STR

1 MAG

11 SKL

15 SPD

8 LCK

15 SPD

11.5 DEF

6.5 RES

Arran has leads in STR, SKL, and DEF, and a large SPD lead. With a Brave, he'll O-KO Bantu. For the worst character in the game, he beats Bantu no problem.

Better yet, let's compare Bantu to the very first boss, Gazzak, when Bantu is at his highest, and then compare Gazzak's NM stats.

GAZZAK

24 HP

7 STR

0 MAG

3 SKL

8 SPD

0 LCK

6.9 DEF

0 RES

So, Bantu has tiny leads with STR, MAG, SKL, LCK, and RES, with the first and last ones truly mattering, but Gazzak, Vs. an average Lvl. 30 Bantu, has a lead in SPD and DEF.

The Chapter 1 boss in NORMAL MODE has a SPD and DEF lead against Average Bantu at Lvl. 30.

Move that trash above Rickard.

Characters in a lower tier who equal/higher than this amount.

Midia: 240%

Maria: 210%

Astram: 260%

Est: 285%/295%

Lorenz: 280%

Arran: 220%

The only people in ANY Fire Emblem who can come close to this much suckage is Niime, Dagda, and FE1 Jeigan. Even YODEL from FE6 has a higher growth % than Bantu.

The only person who is absolutely positively worse than Bantu is... himself. From FE1. 30% growth total.

Growths are meaningless unless the class/base stats/weapon ranks back it up. Bantu can serve as a decent tank early on and he has high power from the dragon stone. He is only good until it runs out but for a while he is pretty decent.

[_____]

OliverxRenning isn't taking into account the Fire Stone in his comparisons, so yeah, his argument means nothing.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Ninji