H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Here are some 10/1 stats.

Abel - Social Knight -> Sniper @ Level 10/1

HP 31, Str 11, Mag 1, Ski 17, Spd 14, Luck 4, Def 8, Res 3

Kain - Social Knight -> Sniper @ Level 10/1

HP 32, Str 12, Mag 1, Ski 15, Spd 13, Luck 6, Def 8, Res 3

Draug - Hunter -> General @ Level 10/1

HP 33, Str 11, Mag 1, Ski 7, Spd 12, Luck 3, Def 15, Res 3

Darros - Hunter -> General @ Level 10/1

HP 34, Str 12, Mag 1, Ski 5, Spd 6, Luck 5, Def 18, Res 3

Cord - Hunter -> General @ Level 10/1

HP 31, Str 12, Mag 1, Ski 8, Spd 10, Luck 8, Def 18, Res 3

Cord - Fighter -> Hero @ Level 10/1

HP 28, Str 12, Mag 1, Ski 15, Spd 17, Luck 8, Def 9, Res 3

Cord - Mercenary -> Hero @ Level 10/1

HP 25, Str 10, Mag 1, Ski 16, Spd 17, Luck 8, Def 10, Res 3

Bord - Hunter -> General @ Level 10/1

HP 32, Str 14, Mag 1, Ski 9, Spd 5, Luck 3, Def 18, Res 3

Barts - Hunter -> General @ Level 10/1

HP 35, Str 14, Mag 1, Ski 10, Spd 9, Luck 7, Def 19, Res 3

Barts - Mercenary -> Hero @ Level 10/1

HP 30, Str 12, Mag 1, Ski 18, Spd 16, Luck 7, Def 11, Res 3

Barts - Fighter -> Hero @ Level 10/1

HP 31, Str 13, Mag 1, Ski 18, Spd 16, Luck 7, Def 11, Res 3

Oguma - Hunter -> General @ Level 10/1

HP 38, Str 12, Mag 1, Ski 9, Spd 8, Luck 5, Def 17, Res 3

Oguma - Hunter -> Horseman @ Level 10/1

HP 30, Str 10, Mag 1, Ski 10, Spd 12, Luck 5, Def 8, Res 3

Oguma - Mercenary -> Hero @ Level 10/1

HP 31, Str 10, Mag 1, Ski 15, Spd 15, Luck 5, Def 9, Res 3

[dondon151]

Also, you know something? I'm not sure Shiida would actually benefit from the spirit dust at all: after all, she's got Aura keeping her busy, and on top of her ATK/Tome rank bonus [she should be at A by now] she has no excuse to not be one rounding stuff with aura/elfire/bolganone: Just throwing that out there.

When is this? Some people (e.g. me) prefer to keep Shiida as PK for longer to reap the benefits of her Wing Spear, as quite a few enemies in this game are mounted or armored and 8 move + flying > 5 move. Given this scenario, Shiida won't be anywhere near A tomes. Even if she were, Aura has 25 uses.

Edited September 14, 2009 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Also, you know something? I'm not sure Shiida would actually benefit from the spirit dust at all: after all, she's got Aura keeping her busy, and on top of her ATK/Tome rank bonus [she should be at A by now] she has no excuse to not be one rounding stuff with aura/elfire/bolganone: Just throwing that out there.

When is this? Some people (e.g. me) prefer to keep Shiida as PK for longer to reap the benefits of her Wing Spear, as quite a few enemies in this game are mounted or armored and 8 move + flying > 5 move. Given this scenario, Shiida won't be anywhere near A tomes. Even if she were, Aura has 25 uses.

I could also point out to Cord and Barst pondering Mercenary for C6X, C8, and C9. Though I don't think that will get me very far either... similair to this argument. If we're using the Wing Spear, we might as well just use her for utility.

[dondon151]

Except Wing Spear and a forge works for Shiida pretty far into midgame. I have her as PK as far as chapter 16 so she can blick one of the paladins near the castle on the first turn.

[Dat Nick]

When is this? Some people (e.g. me) prefer to keep Shiida as PK for longer to reap the benefits of her Wing Spear, as quite a few enemies in this game are mounted or armored and 8 move + flying > 5 move. Given this scenario, Shiida won't be anywhere near A tomes. Even if she were, Aura has 25 uses.

Even if we were to assume this was actually viable as Wing Spears are much too few and far between and Shiida is 100% reliant on them to have any sort of offense whatsoever, you realize that this only helps every portion of my argument, as A: Now Merric REALLY has no reason not to get the Dust as his only competition for it just went Peg, B: Shiida is a peg during the time the tomes in question are available making him 100% entitled to all three of them, and C: Aura only having 25 uses would be a problem if Shiida didn't only need it to cover her until Bolganone becomes buyable, and even then she hardly needs it.

I have her as PK as far as chapter 16 so she can blick one of the paladins near the castle on the first turn.

Tell me how it is humanly possible to do this without Shiida getting gang raped next turn

Furthermore, blick? wtf how? Cavs with a forge maybe, but paladins? I doubt that. You'd have to forge way too much MT into a Wing Spear [it takes a lot to one shot 43 HP/10 def] and the Wing Spear is rather expensive to begin with.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Joker

[dondon151]

Even if we were to assume this was actually viable as Wing Spears are much too few and far between and Shiida is 100% reliant on them to have any sort of offense whatsoever, you realize that this only helps every portion of my argument, as A: Now Merric REALLY has no reason not to get the Dust as his only competition for it just went Peg, B: Shiida is a peg during the time the tomes in question are available making him 100% entitled to all three of them, and C: Aura only having 25 uses would be a problem if Shiida didn't only need it to cover her until Bolganone becomes buyable, and even then she hardly needs it.

Wing Spears are not few are far between. One is buyable in chapters 8, 16, and 22, and 28 uses each is enough for her to cover those maps when you consider that FEDS doesn't have very many enemies and no one single unit gets a monopoly on combat unless it's a super defensive unit. Additionally, forging enough MT on them to OHKO cavaliers and horsemen certainly saves many uses.

I didn't say that Shiida will necessarily stay as PK. If she decides to switch to mage, she wants a Spirit Dust to make up for a lack of magic level-ups.

Tell me how it is humanly possible to do this without Shiida getting gang raped next turn

Furthermore, blick? wtf how? Cavs with a forge maybe, but paladins? I doubt that. You'd have to forge way too much MT into a Wing Spear [it takes a lot to one shot 43 HP/10 def] and the Wing Spear is rather expensive to begin with.

Sorry, I didn't remember my strategy correctly. It's blick (by blick I mean ORKO since Shiida has to take the attack on enemy phase anyway) on the second turn.

[Dat Nick]

One is buyable in chapters 8, 16, and 22, and 28 uses each is enough for her to cover those maps when you consider that FEDS doesn't have very many enemies and no one single unit gets a monopoly on combat unless it's a super defensive unit. Additionally, forging enough MT on them to OHKO cavaliers and horsemen certainly saves many uses.

It's also a ton of money down the shitter. Shiida needs forges on all of her spears, which not only robs other people of forges, it's pricy. For example, +3 mt on all of those [she might need +4 on some later?] is 13440, including what it costs to buy them. Now I know that FEDS has a shitload of funds but that seems like a HELL of a lot to pour into one unit.

Sorry, I didn't remember my strategy correctly. It's blick (by blick I mean ORKO since Shiida has to take the attack on enemy phase anyway) on the second turn.

k but uh

That still doesn't explain how Shiida didn't get raped by the bowmen on enemy phase

[dondon151]

It's also a ton of money down the shitter. Shiida needs forges on all of her spears, which not only robs other people of forges, it's pricy. For example, +3 mt on all of those [she might need +4 on some later?] is 13440, including what it costs to buy them. Now I know that FEDS has a shitload of funds but that seems like a HELL of a lot to pour into one unit.

You don't need to forge all of them. Forging one of them is enough for OHKOs on cavs and horsemen, while an unforged Wing Spear shouldn't have problems ORKOing armors and paladins.

k but uh

That still doesn't explain how Shiida didn't get raped by the bowmen on enemy phase

Turn 1: send units south to attract the DKs. The horsemen on the left and right will move south, but the paladin will stay where he is.

Turn 2: send Shiida to the single space where the paladin can attack her, but the horseman under the paladin cannot.

[GuardianDreamer]

Tier lists huh? Never tried using them, might as well give this a shot. Gordin should be above Ymir, he is a reliable form of chip damage early game, starts from the beginning, his bases aren't bad by any means. Ymir is outshined by everyone else you probably have in your party, has awful join time, and awful bases, he is basically a slightly better Lorenz.

[Rodykitty]

Most of your post is wrong, but I do think Gordon's chip damage isn't devaluated at his point in time, true.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I think astram has a good chance of getting out of bottom if he goes general. He is definitely worse than the hunter!generals in upper mid but he actually has some durability and his growths are pretty good aside from no speed for a general. His bases suck so he is gonna need a draco shield or a seraph robe but I think we should consider it along the lines of a master seal for him. Draco shield's are only really useful to high defense units and we do get two of them in chapter 16 and 17.

OK Astram vs Dolph. This is gonna be easier than I thought. I think we can just throw astram right into lower middle at the least.

I doubt dolph would have gained more than two level up's since he joined. He sucks ass in chapter 12 so no experience or very little. It's a huge map full of enemies that one round him. And he comes with no weaponry and marth has better things to be doing than giving him crap he can barely make use of. In 12x he is decent thanks to the 5 base speed but everybody is good here so who cares. Midia is better than him here just cause of the class base stats and weapon ranks. On chapter 13 from my own experience I find that it's unlikely for any of your units to gain a level unless they were already close to gaining a level coming into the chapter or a healer so Dolph should be level 6 going into chapter 14 if we go to 12x. Also astram is better than him no matter which class dolph is in chapter 13 thanks to doubling with a silver sword. Of course once dolph promotes this pretty much all changes...

Here are astram's growth's as well as a general: 90% hp | 45% strength | 35% skill | 0% speed | 50% lck | 35% def

Most of the hunter generals only have a 60-70% hp growth and he has a higher strength growth as well since most only hit about 30-35% strength. There bases make up for it but still astram is not that far off.

LVL 1 General!Astram with a steel lance

32 HP | 16 DEF | 19 ATK | 88 HIT | 6 AS

LVL 1 General!Astram with an iron bow

15 ATK | 98 HIT

LVL 6 Hunter ! Dolph with a steel bow

23 HP | 5 DEF | 16 ATK | 89 HIT | 12 AS

If dolph promotes early astram should get a draco shield. Sides there needs to be points awarded for being a decent tank without needing promotion.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Lancelot

[Dat Nick]

I'm fine with the idea: Semi-decent generaling is at least a tier up on lolMidia.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I'm fine with the idea: Semi-decent generaling is at least a tier up on lolMidia.

Thank you. I am sorry for the whole est bullshit a few weeks ago.

[GuardianDreamer]

Hm, should I continue with my argument? I have no clue what to do in tier lists.*Goes off to read guide and comes back* Okay, let's take a look at Ymir's bases.

HP: 46(Very nice HP)

STR: 18(Good STR)

MAG: 0(Granted, he won't be needing magic anyway)

SKL: 13(Not TOO bad)

SPD: 14(He's going to be doubled by just about everything unless reclassed into Hero)

Luck: 5(Pretty bad)

Def: 9(Nine? NINE!?)

RES: 1

His SPD can be remedied by being turned into a Hero, but his defense... sheesh. If he gets into a direct fight, he's going to lose a lot of HP, but even if he uses hand axes, he's still going to be 1RKO'd if an enemy gets to him. If switched to a hero, then he won't be 1RKO'd, but he'll be 2HKO'd. Now, let's look at Gordin's average stats as a level 10 Sniper.

HP: 42.8(3 points away from Ymir)

STR: 12.6(7 or 6 points lower than Ymir, but Ymir is a Warrior...)

MAG: 1(Not like he's going to be needing it)

Skill: 19.2(6 points higher than Ymir.)

SPD: 18.8(He's not going to be doubled any time soon.)

LCK: 15.2(A whole 10 point difference)

DEF: 15.4(A 6 point difference)

RES: 3(2 points higher than Ymir)

So, Ymir wins in HP and STR. Gordin wins in MAG, SKL, SPD, LCK, DEF, and RES. I don't know about you, but that's a huge difference to me.

[Colonel M]

We've also had to put up with Gordon's utter shitfest early-to-midgame. And the results endgame-wise aren't even that stellar. Granted being a Sniper helps... but let's be serious and compare them to their respective classes (in other words Hero!Ymir).

[_____]

Also, some comparisons to enemies in Chapter 21 and on would be more helpful than just posting stats.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

BTW, the only way General!Astram can win is if we speak on Midgame... which isn't much.

Take a --/10 General Astram to a 10/1 Hunter->General Dolph.

Astram - 40.1 HP | 14.1 Str | 10.2 Skl | 6.2 Spd | 7.5 Luck | 18.9 Def | 3.0 Res

Dolph - 35.2 HP | 11.1 Str | 9.2 Skl | 12.1 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 18.5 Def | 3.0 Res

At a glance it looks close until you notice that huge Spd gap. BTW, Cavs by C16 have about 11 Spd, sometimes 12. By C18 13 Spd is pretty likely. BTW, --/10 General!Astram at this point is nigh impossible.

[GuardianDreamer]

Sorry, never done tier lists before, now I will get enemy data from chapter 21.(Copied off of the H5 enemy stats topic)

6 Wyvern 3 lvl 8 3 lvl 6

2 Mage lvl 15

2 priest lvl 15

3 general lvl 10

5 Paladin lvl 6

1 Sniper lvl 4

Gordin is going to be a lot more helpful than Ymir in getting rid of those 6 Wyverns, Ymir can deal some damage to the Wyverns if they attack him though, unlike Gordin unless reclassed. But Gordin can either nearly kill the 6 wyverns or kill them off completely(If given either some STR bless or Silver bow) The 2 mages are going to kill both Ymir and Gordin, no question there, but Gordin has a bit more RES, but Ymir has more HP, bit of a toss up on whose more effective there. The 3 generals are going to make mince meat out of both Ymir and Gordin, to avoid damage, Ymir has to either be the one who finishes off a general(waste of experience) or use a hand axe(more practical) Gordin can do better damage as he has access to better long range weaponry, but if the generals attack him, he's going to die, but so is Ymir. Ymir and Gordin aren't going to do much to the five paladins other than be good chip damage/die. The sniper is going to do serious damage to both Ymir and Gordin, but Ymir needs to have a hand axe or Levin sword equipped to do damage, and the latter isn't going to be doing a lot of damage. Gordin will always counter unless you send him into the field with no weapons equipped.(Wow, I'm awful at this, but I have to keep trying) Gordin has a higher survival rate than Ymir does for this level, both need protection, but Gordin is going to be more effective due to having bows and getting rid of those pesky Wyverns. There is my argument, and I will add to it if needed.

[Colonel M]

Again, re-read everything I just wrote:

We've also had to put up with Gordon's utter shitfest early-to-midgame. And the results endgame-wise aren't even that stellar. Granted being a Sniper helps... but let's be serious and compare them to their respective classes (in other words Hero!Ymir).

Address that much.

[GuardianDreamer]

By early-midgame, which chapters do you mean? Do you mean very early(Up to chapter 5)to or after that? I nee dot know when mid-game is considered over as well. That will help me come up with an argument.

[Colonel M]

Practically every single chapter before Ymir shows up. Prove that he isn't a detriment before then.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

BTW, the only way General!Astram can win is if we speak on Midgame... which isn't much.

Take a --/10 General Astram to a 10/1 Hunter->General Dolph.

Astram - 40.1 HP | 14.1 Str | 10.2 Skl | 6.2 Spd | 7.5 Luck | 18.9 Def | 3.0 Res

Dolph - 35.2 HP | 11.1 Str | 9.2 Skl | 12.1 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 18.5 Def | 3.0 Res

At a glance it looks close until you notice that huge Spd gap. BTW, Cavs by C16 have about 11 Spd, sometimes 12. By C18 13 Spd is pretty likely. BTW, --/10 General!Astram at this point is nigh impossible.

Yea I said it changed after promotion. And yea that is impossible level wise. But at least astram isn't complete fail. Of course dolph is the overall better unit.

[Colonel M]

BTW, the only way General!Astram can win is if we speak on Midgame... which isn't much.

Take a --/10 General Astram to a 10/1 Hunter->General Dolph.

Astram - 40.1 HP | 14.1 Str | 10.2 Skl | 6.2 Spd | 7.5 Luck | 18.9 Def | 3.0 Res

Dolph - 35.2 HP | 11.1 Str | 9.2 Skl | 12.1 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 18.5 Def | 3.0 Res

At a glance it looks close until you notice that huge Spd gap. BTW, Cavs by C16 have about 11 Spd, sometimes 12. By C18 13 Spd is pretty likely. BTW, --/10 General!Astram at this point is nigh impossible.

Yea I said it changed after promotion. And yea that is impossible level wise. But at least astram isn't complete fail. Of course dolph is the overall better unit.

Well, he's pretty freaking close to fail.

It all goes back to that AS of his. Now lesse.. I think some units have 26 Atk at this point (this being Cavs). So to compare at base... 20 damage. Or a 2RKO. I dunno how much higher he could get just because being doubled cuts his durability in half.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Colonel M

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

BTW, the only way General!Astram can win is if we speak on Midgame... which isn't much.

Take a --/10 General Astram to a 10/1 Hunter->General Dolph.

Astram - 40.1 HP | 14.1 Str | 10.2 Skl | 6.2 Spd | 7.5 Luck | 18.9 Def | 3.0 Res

Dolph - 35.2 HP | 11.1 Str | 9.2 Skl | 12.1 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 18.5 Def | 3.0 Res

At a glance it looks close until you notice that huge Spd gap. BTW, Cavs by C16 have about 11 Spd, sometimes 12. By C18 13 Spd is pretty likely. BTW, --/10 General!Astram at this point is nigh impossible.

Yea I said it changed after promotion. And yea that is impossible level wise. But at least astram isn't complete fail. Of course dolph is the overall better unit.

Well, he's pretty freaking close to fail.

It all goes back to that AS of his. Now lesse.. I think some units have 26 Atk at this point (this being Cavs). So to compare at base... 20 damage. Or a 2RKO. I dunno how much higher he could get just because being doubled cuts his durability in half.

Screw that. Astram is bottom still. I just pulled out my own copy of the game. Chapter 14. Most enemies had 10 AS. Forget everything I said.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Lancelot

[GuardianDreamer]

So, chapters 1-20? Fine. I'll start with very early(up to chapter 5) then. For the first chapter, everyone is useful, Gordin can do very reliable chip damage, no reason to kill him or anyone else off right now. Chapter two, you still want no one to die, Gordin might die if gets into enemy range, but like everyone else, he's pulling his load. Chapter 3 he's still useful, chip damage and all that good stuff everyone else can do, but he does it without taking hits. Chapter 4, you have access to battle preparations, and maybe a generic or two. You probably will have to send everyone out who is alive, unless you are doing very well in H5. In this chapter, Gordin is still useful(But then again, so is everyone, even Wrys.) Chapter five, there are pegasus knights that Gordin can help kill or nearly kill, still useful. Then when you're almost done with it, you will probably want to kill off some units if you are planning to go to 6x, let's look at who we can kill.

Caeda(No, she can actually double)

Abel(No, best cavalier and is good class changed)

Cain(See above)

Jagen(Probably want to kill him when Hardin joins)

Draug(Maybe, might have died though, as he is doubled before class change is available)

Gordin(Possibly)

Wrys(Yes, Lena and Wendell are more than enough for healing)

Ogma(If you kill him, you are insane)

Barst(See above)

Cord(See above)

Bord(Possibly, he is the least useful of Ogmas's troops)

Darros(Yes, he's going to be doubled, and 1RKO'd)

Castor(Useful for a while, may or may not want to kill him)

Lena(Best Healer)

Julian(Maybe, but he saves you from buying keys.)

Merric(Best magic user, don't want to kill him.)

Wendell(Good healer and can dish out some damage, don't kill)

Hardin(No, good cavalier all around)

Wolf(Broken, only kill him if you're worried about making H5 too easy)

Sedgar(See above)

Vyland(Probably want to kill unless you reclass him correctly)

Roshea(Kill)

Provided that a decent chunk of them will die, I can say that Gordin will be with you for 6x, oh and Rickard isn't useful, unless Julian died.

In 6x, Gordin will probably be there for chip damage, not too useful here, but not worthless either. Still useful. I would continue, but I'm going to stop for a bit and let you counter or I made a mistake.

Edited September 20, 2009 by GuardianDreamer