Who should get ambush?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Personally I found the A route easier, it just more enemies but they're easy. 16B's got that forest terrain that's slowing you down and then there's the lopto mages.

[Don Draper]

Sigh, this is just basically me repeating whatever I say.

How ironic, as I've done that repediately to prove to you that Olwen doesn't get the Ambush manual, and you've constantly said the same "She makes the best use of it!" bullshit. I don't give a shit if somebody makes the best use of an item, its favourtism. Learn the rules of debating kthnx.

[Fia]

Personally I found the A route easier, it just more enemies but they're easy. 16B's got that forest terrain that's slowing you down and then there's the lopto mages.

The Lopto Mages aren't a trouble at all.

B route is annoying, yes. But A route is more frustrating, IMO. >.>

[Seph]

How ironic, as I've done that repediately to prove to you that Olwen doesn't get the Ambush manual, and you've constantly said the same "She makes the best use of it!" bullshit. I don't give a shit if somebody makes the best use of an item, its favourtism. Learn the rules of debating kthnx.

Learn the rules of debating when some of the best debaters have used the idea of intelligent item consumption?

It makes sense. You would spend your items in the most intelligent way possible.

[Don Draper]

4. Resources

An often made mistake by beginning debaters is that stat holes and other shortcomings of a unit can be fixed by the excuse of beneficial treatment. In other words, Oswin's Spd can be fixed by a Speedwing, Micaiah's HP matters not so much in the face of an Angelic Robe, Largo being underleveled is no more the case thanks to BEXP, and Edward's mediocre offense later on is fixed by the Wrath skill.

The problem with such arguments is that these resources are accessible to about anyone. We can increase Oswin's Spd by 2, but we can do the same to everyone else with that Speedwing, and he will still be behind. Of course, some people like Guy do not need a Speedwing at all. Obviously, not needing a Speedwing is a huge advantage, because that means someone else can get it. Debating is not only about making your unit look as good as possible, but also the rest of the team.

The same applies to all other kinds of beneficial treatment. This ranges from giving them lots of BEXP, skills, setting up kills for them to fix their low offense, protecting them from harm on enemy phase to fix their low defense, etcetera. In the end, having a problem is always worse than not having a problem. The fact that resources are available is a benefit overall, but since everyone has an equal right to consume each of those resources, they are better off ignored.

On a related note, don't make the mistake of counting your unit's starting weapon as an advantage for them in a game where trading is done before you can say "gimme". Guy comes with a Killing Edge. I do not need to move, fight, or use Guy in any way to use that Killing Edge though. All I need to get that Killing Edge into my inventory is talk to him with Matthew. Renault comes with a Fortify Staff, but I just need his village, and not Renault's capabilities, to use it. Continuing on this line of logic, Dart does not get credit for Geitz and his fighting capabilities, and Clarine is not the one that allows you to use Rutger's offensive prowess. All they do is letting you use their weapons. For everything else, you need to move Geitz/Rutger, and not Dart/Clarine.

Note that you can only count a resource as your unit's advantage if your unit brings that to the team where you would not have it otherwise. Without Clarine, you would not have Rutger's Killing Edge. Without Colm, you would not have that Energy Ring from the Mage in Ch7. Without Hector, you would not be able to use the Wolf Beil to your advantage. Without Neimi, you would (likely) not be able to use Nidhogg (the S-rank bow), because the only other unit with a high bow weapon level is Innes. Which brings me to my next point.

Do I really have to bring this up again?

[Seph]

Do I really have to bring this up again?

Or Solid’s opener here

-Defends Mordy getting a speedwing based on intelligence resource consumption and goes over all the consequences this would have on Mordy. He also gives Kieran a speedwing in one of the comparisons to show that it wouldn’t make a difference.

Note that on the instance that Olwen is attacked when holding Daim Thunder, she gets hit once, then she probably kills the enemy before it can attack again. Or she can get Ambush (omg favouritism...except who the fuck wants to use Ambush as well? Fin maybe) and rape enemies before they attack her.

Not factoring stat boosters is like not factoring in Silver weapons, or forges, or reclass, or promotions, or any kind of boost. They exist. You cannot always 100% assume you are going to get them when multiple people want your kind of treatment, which is why not everyone who can be and wants to be a Merc is a Merc, or why we're not assuming everyone is weilding +10 mt forged weapons. But in this case, the cost of having a Speedwing is...that a low tier cannot becomne slightly better. So in that case it is definitely not unheard of to take the Speedwing and run with it.

I said something similar this to Nathan on MSN before, but let's say we are playing FE7 for Special Needs people. We have the normal enemies, but the PC cast consists of:

- A lot of units with 7000 in every stat

- One unit who has the same durability as those above units, enough Atk to 2HKO everything, and he is 2 Spd short of doubling everything.

- One unit who has the same durability as those above units, enough Spd to double everything, and he is 2 Atk short of ORKOing everything.

Now, we have an Energy Ring and a Speedwings at our disposal right away. Do we just not factor them in, and pretend that both of these units are not one-rounding anything?

Do I really have to bring this up again?

Edited February 25, 2009 by Shanan

[NoNameAtAll]

Wrath doesn't need to be at low HP to activate. It ALWAYS activates on the counter.

So even if you somehow manage to get Othin to low HP, he'll sol himself back up sooner or later. Works much better on him than Ambush, since they were smart enough to make Wrath and Ambush slightly cancel each other out

I know low HP isn't needed. I only meant he'd restore one hell of a large chunk of HP if Sol activated on the counterattack. :P

[grandjackal]

This whole argument is based on her getting Ambush, having Leaf attached to her to boost her accuracy enough to actually hit things? Having to drag someone with you to not suck is a bad thing, as is NEEDING ambush rather than just wanting it.

I like how you just disregard the fact that there are more weapons than the master sword. He can use it to double, just like any brave weapon. Great thing about it is that it isn't innacurate and has durability that if he does miss, he's not in so much trouble over it. But thanks to strength he actually has (and Olwen never will), he can actually put weapons to good use.

Pardon me, did you just say durability is not as good as it used to be? You got it backwards, it's never been more important. You can't just rely on dodge thanks to the 1 RN system. Durabilty is always more reliable.

Another point I'd like to bring up is how bullshit her having better dodge is. He starts with 14 speed and luck (thanks to serenseforest base stat records). With the 8 levels you claim she gets and 50% growth in speed...that's 4 + speed. With her bases, SHE WILL HAVE THE SAME SPEED HE DOES WITH LESS LUCK! Throw prayer on top of that, and Eryos actually has BETTER dodge.

She barely beats him out in magic. He absolutely stomps her everywhere else. Well...except dodge, but he still beats her in that anyways.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dat Nick]

Another thing he totally left out, the Master Sword Eyrios comes with, meaning his offense is far from suck.

"OMG ANYBODY CAN USE IT LAWL"

Yeah, but who wants to? It's just overkill on Shiva.

And, as mentioned earlier, he gives another Sol manual. Othin rapes everything even harder with Sol.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

Another thing he totally left out, the Master Sword Eyrios comes with, meaning his offense is far from suck.

"OMG ANYBODY CAN USE IT LAWL"

Yeah, but who wants to? It's just overkill on Shiva.

And, as mentioned earlier, he gives another Sol manual. Othin rapes everything even harder with Sol.

Let's pretend that Shiva and Eyrios are the only sword-wielding units in the entire army and no one wants a Master Sword. Eyrios also doesn't get credit for his Sol manual - if anything, Karin gets credit for obtaining Eyrios's equipment since she recruits him, though a thief can just lift his crap.

Let's also pretend that Olwen's only sliver of viable offense is with Ambush and Daim Thunder, and nothing else. Let's ignore her decent stats at join time, her ability to hit res with any other tome for high damage output, her easy access to Bolting (which, by the way, no one will be able to use for a long time), and her mount.

Then, let's pretend that Olwen's not more useful than Eyrios for 8 chapters solely due to availability (or, if you feel like nitpicking over whether 8 chapters are actually 8 chapters, Olwen's present for 1/4 of the game where Eyrios is not).

Finally, let's ignore that no one has said Olwen MUST get Ambush to amount to any use. Shanan already said this on the previous page, but it seemed to be ignored. Olwen gets the most return out of the skill because of her weapon selection and availability, which is why people suggest giving it to her.

Edited February 26, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Let's pretend that Shiva and Eyrios are the only sword-wielding units in the entire army and no one wants a Master Sword.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Nobody worth a damn is going to care about the master sword because they're killing everything anyway. Happy now? You're free to toss it on Fred or some shit, I don't know. Maybe that floats your boat, but generally, we don't assume crappy characters are in play for the sole purpose of crappy characters being in play.

Eyrios also doesn't get credit for his Sol manual

No, but it's a point against recruiting Olwen and a point for recruiting Eyrios. Sol manual>No sol manual. You can't pretend it's not there: It's absolutely a factor. Far too w1n not to be one.

though a thief can just lift his crap.

kinda have to actually be going that way first, though

You can't be going that way if Olwen's not dead.

Let's also pretend that Olwen's only sliver of viable offense is with Ambush and Daim Thunder, and nothing else.

I'm not talking about Olwen. We're talking about Eyrios and how the pro-Olwen's "conveniently" missed his solid offense at jointime with Master Sword.

Let's ignore her decent stats at join time

Let's ignore Eyrios's, too. And let's pretend that some competent unit will need the sword for god knows what reason.

Then, let's pretend that Olwen's not more useful than Eyrios for 8 chapters solely due to availability (or, if you feel like nitpicking over whether 8 chapters are actually 8 chapters, Olwen's present for 1/4 of the game where Eyrios is not).

Fatigue existing, combined with Olwen's crummy HP, knocks this down to at least six. And this is me being considerate. It's probably more like 3, even 4.

Then, let's pretend that Olwen's not more useful than Eyrios for 8 chapters solely due to availability

Olwen kills everything on the map.

Eyrios kills everything on the map and dies less. And before you give me "relying on master sword" crap, by the time the master sword is used up, he'll have gained enough speed to not be reliant on it as much as he used to.

Do explain this to me: I'm not getting it.

Finally, let's ignore that no one has said Olwen MUST get Ambush to amount to any use.

Let's also ignore that these words never came out of my mouth, so I don't know why the hell I have to hear this lecture.

[dondon151]

Oh, I'm sorry.

Nobody worth a damn is going to care about the master sword because they're killing everything anyway. Happy now? You're free to toss it on Fred or some shit, I don't know. Maybe that floats your boat, but generally, we don't assume crappy characters are in play for the sole purpose of crappy characters being in play.

I seriously doubt that Eyrios's natural offense sucks so much that he needs the Master Sword while everyone else hacks away with Iron Blades or something. But if it does, that's too bad for him.

No, but it's a point against recruiting Olwen and a point for recruiting Eyrios. Sol manual>No sol manual. You can't pretend it's not there: It's absolutely a factor. Far too w1n not to be one.

Eyrios does not get credit for his Sol manual. Karin gets credit for obtaining it if she recruits him and Lara/Lifis/Pahn get credit for stealing it.

kinda have to actually be going that way first, though

You can't be going that way if Olwen's not dead.

Huh? Going Eyrios's route doesn't depend on Olwen being dead.

I'm not talking about Olwen. We're talking about Eyrios and how the pro-Olwen's "conveniently" missed his solid offense at jointime with Master Sword.

I wasn't talking to you anymore starting from after the line break. I'm also not missing Eyrios's offense. I didn't say anything about it.

Fatigue existing, combined with Olwen's crummy HP, knocks this down to at least six. And this is me being considerate. It's probably more like 3, even 4.

It's 1/4 of the game, the game being the number of chapters that one participates in after factoring fatigue. 1/4 is a ratio independent of the actual number of chapters. And really, 24 base HP is enough not to seriously worry about fatigue, especially on a primarily combat unit that has no other utility. Fatigue doesn't build up very quickly at all for combat units.

Olwen kills everything on the map.

Eyrios kills everything on the map and dies less. And before you give me "relying on master sword" crap, by the time the master sword is used up, he'll have gained enough speed to not be reliant on it as much as he used to.

Do explain this to me: I'm not getting it.

Eyrios kills nothing while he's still holding the Norden Line. The Master Sword also has only 20 uses, or 10 rounds of combat.

Edited February 26, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

I seriously doubt that Eyrios's natural offense sucks so much that he needs the Master Sword while everyone else hacks away with Iron Blades or something. But if it does, that's too bad for him.

Why? You just said it: Everybody else hacks away with Iron Blades. What good is a master sword doing them?

Eyrios does not get credit for his Sol manual.

Eyrios gives the team a sol manual.

Olwen takes that sol manual away.

This is a point for Eyrios, and a point against Olwen. This has to be factored in somehow.

Huh? Going Eyrios's route doesn't depend on Olwen being dead.

Really? I could have sworn I heard that somewhere before.

Eyrios kills nothing while he's still holding the Norden Line.

That's not what we're discussing.

You said something like "It's not solely availability that makes Olwen>Eyrios."

The Master Sword also has only 20 uses, or 10 rounds of combat.

Right. Well then, since nobody else is making much use out of Ambush, meaning Olwen gets it, nobody else is making much use out of the Hero Sword since any competent unit will be killing everything, so I guess Eyrios gets the Hero Sword, too.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

To clear this up right now: Whether Olwen is alive or not does not play a role in which route you're getting. It depends on which exit you took in chapter 15 or which choice you picked when you visited the church. Olwen being alive just means you can't recruit Eyrios.

[grandjackal]

Sweet Tooth uhh...We can still go the Eryos route with Olwen arrives, we just can't RECRUIT him...

But still, a thief lifting his stuff? HAHAHAHAHA! Yeah! Good luck with that! Thunderbolt, Thoron and Master Sword are some big stuff that a thief will never be able to take (though I forget how much Thoron weighs) unless we heavily abuse their level ups to get extreme build. We're just gonna ignore those three just for the manual when we could just have all 4 with ease? Karin should get credit for recruiting him, but she isn't using his stuff.

Outside of Shiva, name another good sword user to be played that can effectively use swords. Felgus, Carrion and...who else? Felgus's PCR is so amazing, he can crit with anything once he hits 20 skill. Shiva is just plain nuts. These guys don't even need it. His only competition or it are Leaf and Trude. Thieves shouldn't be fighting due to fragility and obviously there are actually quite a few who put it to bad use. Fred is lol, most horse mounts need to dismount to use it which is further lol. Leaf Isn't godly enough to risk himself out there and Trude is the definition of meh. So his only competition is...Carrion...Wow, it's in heavy demand isn't it? I thin we can let him get away with depending on it a little bit, as opposed to Olwen depending on Dime Thunder to have any real offense and STILL can't risk dying without acting like an arch knight anyways.

Decent stats my ass, her bases are terrible. A level 2 Mage Knight with 24 HP (Asvel, who is relatively fragile, starts with 2 less HP than her and comes much earlier so he's bound to have more by the time she shows up), 5 strength (which is forgiveable if her magic is good enough), 10 Magic (yes, pretty decent), 8 Skill (...), 10 Speed (decent too, can use basic spells without much trouble...), 5 luck (...skill and luck helps make accuracy right?), 4 Defense (She has Machua's base durability except she arrives later), and she couldn't give a damn about con with her strength. She's got decent magic and speed...Otherwise, she's sub par on arrival. Most of Eryos's bases start out better than how she averages at level 20. Only thing she has on him when he arrives is magic. If she's getting those 8 levels, she ends up with teh same speed. The same. Did I mention she'll be 2 levels above him with this with worse stats and same speed while he has the same growths? If Olwen is fast, we can't bash Eryos for it either. He loses out to her in magic by a couple points at worst.

So here we have someone who absolutely trounces her. If he starts bad, Olwen must be horrid. If he starts bad (even though he starts better than her just by existing), and ends up better, why not save up those thunderstorms for him to get him a way of catching up? It gives him a way to catch up (since he apparently needs it, for how weird it sounds), can take out some stronger enemies, and he gets much better returns out of it. "BUT THAT'S BABYING ER-" and Olwen's main use is pure arch knight babying. That's the main way to use her while it just gives something Eryos to do until he becomes awesome(er). Saving up those thunderstorm uses by the way could make recruiting Xavier sooooo much easier as Eryos could just blast the Freege armors instead of doing crazy-ass tricks. Olwen's magic is only a couple points better so it's not like Eryos is struggling compared to Olwen, and he gets a much better return out of it. There's no need to use thunderstorm earlier than when enemies actually start posing a problem.

The reason we keep bringing up Olwen with ambush is because it's the only way she can really compare to Eryos. Without it, she's an arch knight comparing to a tough mage knight. With it, she's a risky tank compared to a tough mage knight. Balanced mobile mage > meta-tank. Balanced mobile mage >>> glorified arch knight.

Man...I really need to be more brief.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Grandjackal

[dondon151]

Why? You just said it: Everybody else hacks away with Iron Blades. What good is a master sword doing them?

They'll want it against enemy commanders? There's quite a few of them.

Eyrios gives the team a sol manual.

Olwen takes that sol manual away.

This is a point for Eyrios, and a point against Olwen. This has to be factored in somehow.

Eyrios does not have to be recruited for his Sol manual, so Olwen does not take that away, and there's no point associated with this.

You said something like "It's not solely availability that makes Olwen>Eyrios."

I said that availability makes Olwen>Eyrios. I think I used funny wording. But Daim Thunder and Holy Sword are also two advantages. PCC is another, as is support from Leaf...

Right. Well then, since nobody else is making much use out of Ambush, meaning Olwen gets it, nobody else is making much use out of the Hero Sword since any competent unit will be killing everything, so I guess Eyrios gets the Hero Sword, too.

Oops, I guess Eyrios isn't your "any competent unit." And again, I'm not even assuming that Olwen gets Ambush; I'm merely stating that the benefit from giving Ambush to Olwen is greater when compared to everyone else, and this influences how I answer the topic question. If I were to pull stats and debate Olwen, I would definitely consider Ambush, but I wouldn't automatically assume that she gets it because there are a few other units that might want it as well.

But still, a thief lifting his stuff? HAHAHAHAHA! Yeah! Good luck with that! Thunderbolt, Thoron and Master Sword are some big stuff that a thief will never be able to take (though I forget how much Thoron weighs) unless we heavily abuse their level ups to get extreme build. We're just gonna ignore those three just for the manual when we could just have all 4 with ease? Karin should get credit for recruiting him, but she isn't using his stuff.

Karin gets credit for getting his stuff so that the team can actually use it. What's important here is the Sol manual, but if you really want the other stuff, then use the Sleep staff on him and take all his stuff. Thoron has 9 WT and is easily stolen.

Outside of Shiva, name another good sword user to be played that can effectively use swords. Felgus, Carrion and...who else? Felgus's PCR is so amazing, he can crit with anything once he hits 20 skill. Shiva is just plain nuts. These guys don't even need it. His only competition or it are Leaf and Trude. Thieves shouldn't be fighting due to fragility and obviously there are actually quite a few who put it to bad use. Fred is lol, most horse mounts need to dismount to use it which is further lol. Leaf Isn't godly enough to risk himself out there and Trude is the definition of meh. So his only competition is...Carrion...Wow, it's in heavy demand isn't it? I thin we can let him get away with depending on it a little bit, as opposed to Olwen depending on Dime Thunder to have any real offense and STILL can't risk dying without acting like an arch knight anyways.

OK, let's discount every mediocre unit from access to the Master Sword that they'll need to be good, because they suck! So no one needs the Master Sword! Except for Eyrios, because he somehow manages to defy both generalizations! At least Olwen gets Daim Thunder and keeps Daim Thunder all the time without it running out.

You also forgot Ralph, Machua, and Dean who can make use from the Master Sword, and I don't see much problem with Pahn fighting if he's getting fielded anyway. That's 6 people who can use the Master Sword, not counting Felgus and Shiva (Carrion won't have A swords).

Decent stats my ass, her bases are terrible.

Olwen's offense is good solely because of mag hitting mag (no one gives a damn about her str when mag beats everything) and re-move aids her in surviving. She has more chapters to use available scrolls to help her growths as well. Also, I'm not bashing Eyrios for anything... lol.

I don't have access to enemy averages, but I am pretty sure that Olwen's stats are more than enough to annihilate enemies. As has been said numerous times, FE5 enemies are statistical pushovers.

So here we have someone who absolutely trounces her. If he starts bad, Olwen must be horrid. If he starts bad (even though he starts better than her just by existing), and ends up better, why not save up those thunderstorms for him to get him a way of catching up?

Olwen trounces Eyrios when Eyrios is still part of the damned Freege army. Why the hell would you save up Boltings just for Eyrios to use them? You use them when it's advantageous to do so.

The reason we keep bringing up Olwen with ambush is because it's the only way she can really compare to Eryos. Without it, she's an arch knight comparing to a tough mage knight. With it, she's a risky tank compared to a tough mage knight. Balanced mobile mage > meta-tank. Balanced mobile mage >>> glorified arch knight.

Uh, no it's not, and please stop with the "Olwen is an arch knight" analogies because she's performing many times better than any arch knight in this game can hope to do.

Edited February 26, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Oops, I guess Eyrios isn't your "any competent unit."

We're talking about Eyrios's usefulness. Of course we're assuming he's played, of course we're assuming he gets uber weapons he may need. Because we're talking about Eyrios.

I'm merely stating that the benefit from giving Ambush to Olwen is greater when compared to everyone else,

And giving Eyrios the Hero Sword is greater than giving it to anybody else.

Shiva goes from one rounding everything on the map to one rounding everything on the map.

Felgus goes from one rounding everything on the map to one rounding everything on the map.

Eyrios goes from one rounding little on the map to one rounding everything on the map.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[grandjackal]

Ok fine, she's the best arch knight. Whatever floats the boat.

Ok, so thoron can be stolen with the solar shot manual. Still two things thieves can't steal. Why waste a sleep staff though? Just recruit him, why are we trying to make this hard? Oh wait, we want to keep Olwen alive for some reason...

Re-move aids her to keep her alive? *ahem* I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Eryos can do this too, and doesn't have to do so as badly as Olwen does. It's less it's aiding her and more she kinda has to to not get gangbanged by the enemy.

To go with the three other sword users you mentioned..Ralph is severely outclassed along with not being exactly special and Dean sure as hell doesn't need it. He'd prefer master lances anyways. Pahn is fragile, so he's not being depended on to do much on the offensive side. Doesn't he come with the king sword anyways? Machua's fair game, she comes with ambush automatically so she can put brave and master weapons to good use, along with her speed counteracting her meh con. Carrion won't be getting an A in swords eh? Ok, so we replaced one with one. Don't bring up Mareeta either, she's a vicious little gutter without it if leveled, thanks to Shooting Star Shot and Lunar Cutter. Hell, she's prefer ambush or sol over a master sword. It might be in high demand, but not many can get as much a return out of it as Eryos and Machua. Machua doesn't have a horse's mobility or solar shot either.

The better question is why waste thunderstorm uses when there are better situations to use them later? Unless she crits, all she's doing is weakening fail enemies from a distance unless she crits. Enemies aren't really troublesome enough to warrent flinging thunderstorms at them until later. Things like blasting the freege knights to make Xavier's whole recruitment easier, or blasting the armor knights in the chapter after Eryos's so getting up to the castle with the whole Cyas business much easier. We COULD warp skip, but why not go through it normally? Saves a warp staff, gets your team exp...Eryos isn't doing a ton worse than Olwen here, gets him to get even better than Olwen can be, and can continue to snipe later as enemies get more and more annoying when he's got nothing better to do. Olwen...weakens lol enemies with it in her time. There's using resources well, and then there's using resources unnecessarily. It sounds more advantageous to use them later than when unnecessary. While we're at it, why is she sniping if she's apparently so good huh?

Fine, Eryos doesn't get the master sword. Good thing he has pretty good strength. He can use other physical weapons with magic on the side to pick people off. He's pretty versatile. Olwen's dependent on magic. Basic fire I believe weighs 5. Bringing her down to 5 speed. 5 speed when she shows up is actually not doubling some things. Enemies need 1 speed for her to double them with basic fire. Enemies fail in this game, but not THAT bad, at least not at the time she shows up (unless they have heavy weapons). Thus the whole reliant on Dime Thunder thing. Dime Thunder weighs her down a ton. She can get doubled and evade is killed, meaning her dodge isn't good. Meaning if she's using it, she's falling back. Like an arch knight. All using anything other than Dime Thunder does is make her not get doubled. She could miss with Dime Thunder too, thanks to it's 70 accuracy and her meh skill and bad luck. Quit making her sound like an offensive juggernaut. We COULD give her a wind spell...but she'll have to wait for when the chapter actually arrives. Until then, she's a glorified...well you know.

Enemies in this game have fail stats indeed, but with how messed up the RNG system is in this game, how many of them are usually in a group and Olwen not winning the award of dodge goddess, it isn't actually hard to hit her. This is why durability is better than dodge. Eryos has plenty of it. Olwen seriously is not hard to kill, unless we treat her like an arch knight. I'll continue to call her this until I can see I don't need to use her as one. Eryos can actually frontline, Olwen has to stick herself in the back just to pop out and try to kill something. So what if she can target magic? Would matter if she could do more than pinch people

with said magic. She shows up to compete with a bunch of people who can actually step into enemy lines while being unable to handle much exposure. On the other hand, Eryos can at least take on some enemies without dying.

How am I biased? I'm basically comparing him having nothing but his join time and even giving him weaker weapons like fire and lighter swords while giving Olwen any weapon she can use. Even with lighter weaker swords with magic as back up to pick off enemies he can't reach/might as well attack from safety to kill someone weakened, he's doing better. His versatility is what makes him win in the end.

All Olwen has is dependency on an overrated spell.

[Mekkah]

I don't think the inventory of Eyrios is worth having endless quarrels about. The difference between Olwen/Eyrios when it comes to that is just how much more convenient it is to recruit Eyrios than to use Sleep or Thief Staff and/or a built thief to get them. If we believe Tooth's argument that no one else wants the thing, then it's absolutely worthless to begin with if we're not using Eyrios other than for selling (and that being able to happen is not in Eyrios favor either - I could have sold that stuff instead for ping ping when using a better unit...note that Olwen's Daim Thunder is absolutely free).

Fatigue existing, combined with Olwen's crummy HP, knocks this down to at least six. And this is me being considerate. It's probably more like 3, even 4.

Fatigued for half the chapters she exists? You just implied she fought like >25 battles every time she is fielded, which is definitely not helping anything resembling "Olwen sux when she joinz" or comparisons. 6 chapters is likely most realistic.

[grandjackal]

I don't think the inventory of Eyrios is worth having endless quarrels about. The difference between Olwen/Eyrios when it comes to that is just how much more convenient it is to recruit Eyrios than to use Sleep or Thief Staff and/or a built thief to get them. If we believe Tooth's argument that no one else wants the thing, then it's absolutely worthless to begin with if we're not using Eyrios other than for selling (and that being able to happen is not in Eyrios favor either - I could have sold that stuff instead for ping ping when using a better unit...note that Olwen's Daim Thunder is absolutely free).

Fatigued for half the chapters she exists? You just implied she fought like >25 battles every time she is fielded, which is definitely not helping anything resembling "Olwen sux when she joinz" or comparisons. 6 chapters is likely most realistic.

Well I stopped considering it, but think it like Halvan's brave axe. Other axers can use it, but he puts it to best use thanks to good strength and skill along with nice durability and ambush. Eyrios can use it to wittle down a group/gives him a better chance to activate sol to recover whatever hp he lost, picks one of them off with fire/moar master sword to continue forward while the other weakened enemies get killed by your other guys, whereas your other guys would be killing and more would get a chance to maul them. He might not be killing, but he's making things easier for your team so it spreads out the exp. That, and some do that kill then let others come to continue mauling you thing, so Eyrios's 0 PCR is a blessing in disguise. Then he grows and becomes pretty decent while Olwen...doesn't really change at all. Doesn't change the fact that Olwen is garbage for those 6 said chapters.

[Seph]

Another thing he totally left out, the Master Sword Eyrios comes with, meaning his offense is far from suck.

Dude, I addressed that earlier. His offense STILL sucks, he can't double.

Also, it only has 20 uses.

Pardon me, did you just say durability is not as good as it used to be? You got it backwards, it's never been more important. You can't just rely on dodge thanks to the 1 RN system. Durabilty is always more reliable.

I meant, durability can't be abused as much because you gain an insane amount of fatigue.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Shanan

[grandjackal]

I meant, durability can't be abused as much because you gain an insane amount of fatigue.

Makes sense, but Eyrios has 40 HP. That's quite a bit of leeway in the fatigue department.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Seph]

Makes sense, but Eyrios has 40 HP. That's quite a bit of leeway in the fatigue department.

That's fine and all, but the point still stands.

Meaning, you have to use his durability wisely. Can't abuse it like in FE7.. can't use it very much. Because if you do, Eyrios isn't going to be around very much.

[grandjackal]

That's fine and all, but the point still stands.

Meaning, you have to use his durability wisely. Can't abuse it like in FE7.. can't use it very much. Because if you do, Eyrios isn't going to be around very much.

FE7, durability came out of dodge because dodge was actually reliable thanks to wtf affinity bonuses, rediculous weapon triangle effects and the fact most units not named Bartre, Oswin and Dorcas had speed. Real durability was good, but it was overkill there.

FE5 on the other hand doesn't allow dodge to be reliable. Hell, durability is incredibly important to the point where any enemy can critical any unit unless they have a scroll. Hell, Fergus got crit hit by a ballistae just a second ago. A freaking ballistae! Durability is incredibly important to that point. It's like hit, it can't be more than 99, but it can't be lower than 1. But this is aside from the point and I'm just venting because FUCK ballistae! So forgive me for this bit.

Back to the point, durability is important. But, the fatigue system effects everyone and not just Eyrios. It effects Olwen as well. She's not gonna be doing much, thanks to her terrible durability, and now also because of fatigue! She's either doing little to be of some small effect in the next chapter, or just not being in as many chapters (or being dead, because we can't allow her to be in such a position in the first place). All this means is that Eyrios can do more than the fatigue system will allow Olwen. This is a major point against her because Eyrios has a TON more HP than she does. All this for Dime Thunder and sword she can't put to good use out of magic tanking (which when you get it will be kinda useful for like...2 chapters?)

Eyrios is very versatile. Olwen sounds like a very inflexible class that's on a mount and can re-move back behind the front lines, but has the ability to attack at range and close range, but has durability so bad she might as well not have the ability to attack close range at all...I forget what they're called, or if they're so special...

[Seph]

You type WAY too much.

FE5 on the other hand doesn't allow dodge to be reliable. Hell, durability is incredibly important to the point where any enemy can critical any unit unless they have a scroll. Hell, Fergus got crit hit by a ballistae just a second ago. A freaking ballistae! Durability is incredibly important to that point. It's like hit, it can't be more than 99, but it can't be lower than 1. But this is aside from the point and I'm just venting because FUCK ballistae! So forgive me for this bit.

That does nothing to address my fatigue argument.

Back to the point, durability is important. But, the fatigue system effects everyone and not just Eyrios

Pffft, I know that. It goes for everyone. What's your point?

It effects Olwen as well. She's not gonna be doing much, thanks to her terrible durability, and now also because of fatigue!

Since Olwen is frail, you can't rely on her to take very many hits, so fatigue isn't going to be effecting her that much.

All this for Dime Thunder and sword she can't put to good use out of magic tanking (which when you get it will be kinda useful for like...2 chapters?)

You didn't even play the game, I guess?

The most important reason why Olwen > Eyrios:

Eyrios is route dependent. You don't even get him if you don't kill Olwen in the A route and if you go to the B route.

Two conditions have to be fulfilled:

- Go to A route

- Kill Olwen

Pathetic.

Others:

- 4 PC

- Early long range tomes (several Thunderstorms available)

- several chapters of availability VS Eyrios

- DaimThunder and sword

but has durability so bad she might as well not have the ability to attack close range at all...I forget what they're called, or if they're so special...

Actually, with a Wind / sword and some help from scrolls (barely a bad thing, a simple trade per level up helps) she can get 3HKOd - 5HKOd, which isn't that bad.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Shanan