Who should get ambush?

[grandjackal]

The question is does she get A by chapter 14, the only chapter she can make significant use of, with what little she's doing? 12 is forest and she's not doing much there due to messy terrain and is fog of war (bad for really fragile people, but forest terrain compensates to messing with enemy movement anyways, they walk right into you), 12x we're just having Laura talk to Pahn after being warped for the treasure goodies the chapter holds and making sure Tina doesn't waste all those thief staff uses, and 13 is a chapter we want to rush. She's not getting an A for a significant time. Even if she does, it would be generously be during the later parts of 14 (too little too late), or somewhere around 15. 14x there's no way we're sending her into a fog of war map like this. Pegasi from everywhere to smack her around and dark mages rewarping. Then 15, there isn't anyone who does bad here as this chapter is easy peasy. Then Eyrios shows up...

Hand axes are inaccurate indeed. One thing Othin has though is skill and luck, so he can actually hit things with it. So hand axe is as innacurate as Olwen is. Othin has skill and luck to make up for the weapon's bad accuracy, Olwen has bad skill and luck wielding a somewhat more accurate weapon. She can still miss. Another thing Othin has for him is durabilty to stand in the front lines and wrath to make any counter of his hurt something fierce. Olwen has to pray both shots of Dime Thunder hit to kill...well anything. If she doesn't, she has to retreat. If she can't retreat, she gets mauled.

Seriously, how is there still an argument? She does little, gets killed easily and needs to be spoiled just to compare to Eyrios! Why is this argument continuing?

[Mekkah]

Lessee, that's 2 stars from Leaf, 1 star from Fin....we're up to 99 hit already. If he's in range of charisma or his supports or Leaf, that's even better.

And then enemies usually have leadership too, usually more than what you have, so that goes down again.

[Seph]

90 hit is still a lot regardless of "raped RN system." Going by what you said, everyone has a shitty hit and evade rate because they cap out at 99%/1% and not 100%.

It's common knowledge that FE5 is different. It's as if the game lets you hit when the game itself wants it.

And then there's enemy leadership.

That sounds ridiculously desperate for arguments against Hand Axe. Regardless, I'd rather use a Hand Axe than repair a broken Pugi later on.

Desperate, you may think so, but you failed to deny them, so?

Also forgot to factor in leadership.

Lessee, that's 2 stars from Leaf, 1 star from Fin....we're up to 99 hit already. If he's in range of charisma or his supports or Leaf, that's even better.

Also forgot to factor in leadership.

Lessee, that's several stars from all the enemies around the map.. far more of a contribution than Leaf and Fin!

The question is does she get A by chapter 14, the only chapter she can make significant use of, with what little she's doing? 12 is forest and she's not doing much there due to messy terrain and is fog of war (bad for really fragile people, but forest terrain compensates to messing with enemy movement anyways, they walk right into you), 12x we're just having Laura talk to Pahn after being warped for the treasure goodies the chapter holds and making sure Tina doesn't waste all those thief staff uses, and 13 is a chapter we want to rush. She's not getting an A for a significant time. Even if she does, it would be generously be during the later parts of 14 (too little too late), or somewhere around 15. 14x there's no way we're sending her into a fog of war map like this. Pegasi from everywhere to smack her around and dark mages rewarping. Then 15, there isn't anyone who does bad here as this chapter is easy peasy. Then Eyrios shows up...

She has to attack only 20 times with any Thunder tome in chapters 11x, 12 and 12x. What is so hard to believe? It's very simple.

She could even get it at the beginning 13. I think you're just biased here.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Shanan

[Mekkah]

And since Mekkah's here, why don't we ask him? Does Olwen have complete dibs on Ambush, and gets it on every single playthrough?

I don't know if there's any sarcasm involved here BUT giving Olwen Ambush is like giving her a stat booster, except it's probably not wanted as much. No one really gets anything out of that, except people with 2x hit weapons, enough firepower to 2HKO and not enough durability.

For example, Fin would enjoy Ambush, except he has no issues taking hits (and when Brave Lance is equipped, he is likely dodging anyway, especially with people like Leaf and Nanna in range). And then Brave Lance cannot be used indoors, or against magic users. Someone with another Brave/Master weapon could like it, but by the time those are available to those they don't have durability issues anyway.

Basically, I think Olwen taking Ambush overall is a net equation. Without Olwen on the team, Ambush will probably go to someone who gets use out of it once in a blue moon (like an occasional first attack critical). Or I suppose it can be sold for 4000G (funny how nobody brought this up).

[grandjackal]

It still depends on her not missing, which isn't reliable with her bad accuracy. It doesn't suddenly make her durable either. It's what I mean by meta-tank, it only makes her a tank in the way that she destroys anyone that attacks (like Halvan with a brave axe). But unlike Halvan and Dean, she'll get her ass kicked if she misses, and isn't as accurate as them either. She went from suck to needing luck on your side.

I'd still give it to Eyrios so he can make better use of Solar Shot...

[Seph]

It still depends on her not missing, which isn't reliable with her bad accuracy. It doesn't suddenly make her durable either. It's what I mean by meta-tank, it only makes her a tank in the way that she destroys anyone that attacks (like Halvan with a brave axe). But unlike Halvan and Dean, she'll get her ass kicked if she misses, and isn't as accurate as them either. She went from suck to needing luck on your side.

I'd still give it to Eyrios so he can make better use of Solar Shot...

If I recall correctly, missing doesn't matter? Anyway, even if it does, it's only 20 uses AND you have Leaf and Fin's leadership stars AND support bonus. She still has 11x, 12 and 12x to do it. She doesn't need to get flooded, only attract a small number of enemies to her side. FE5 maps are large and chapters have plenty of reinforcements. It's no problem at all.

Solar Shot is unreliable. At best, it only has a 20% chance of activating. Only. Olwen has these factors on her side:

- She can get Ambush immediately (on chapter 12, you would have to wait until 16 or 17 to use Ambush), so she would contribute to efficiency for longer.

- She can use 3 weapons to great effect (Eyrios does not, while Olwen has 2 DaimThunders and Holy Sword)

- Olwen is pretty fragile, Eyrios is not. Her improvement in this part is faaaar greater than Eyrios. She can kill things before they hit her, but in Eyrios's case, they will not die. Ever. He only has 0 PC.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Shanan

[Dat Nick]

Solar Shot is unreliable.

Aether is unreliable.

Doesn't make it any less sex.

At best, it only has a 20% chance of activating.

And that's REALLY damn good. 20% adds up fast. Add in that Eyrios has something called "durability" and it's very realistic that Sol will activate before he dies more often than not.

Only.

ONLY? Look at what this skill does for Shiva and then tell me it's "ONLY" 20%.

[grandjackal]

If I recall correctly, missing doesn't matter? Anyway, even if it does, it's only 20 uses AND you have Leaf and Fin's leadership stars AND support bonus. She still has 11x, 12 and 12x to do it. She doesn't need to get flooded, only attract a small number of enemies to her side. FE5 maps are large and chapters have plenty of reinforcements. It's no problem at all.

Solar Shot is unreliable. At best, it only has a 20% chance of activating. Only. Olwen has these factors on her side:

- She can get Ambush immediately (on chapter 12, you would have to wait until 16 or 17 to use Ambush), so she would contribute to efficiency for longer.

- She can use 3 weapons to great effect (Eyrios does not, while Olwen has 2 DaimThunders and Holy Sword)

- Olwen is pretty fragile, Eyrios is not. Her improvement in this part is faaaar greater than Eyrios. She can kill things before they hit her, but in Eyrios's case, they will not die. Ever. He only has 0 PC.

Do you just pick fights with people whenever or something?

Anyways, A. Leaf and Fin would rather be with their friends like Nanna, Felgus, Halvan, Othin, Brighton to make sure they always hit (Nanna being near invincible with the earth sword, Felgus due to being a durable dude with 5 PCR, Othin for his mad crit skills to not miss, Brighton to hit his wrathful strikes and Halvan to be unkillable with brave axe in hand). These people have durability, so unlike Olwen they don't HAVE to drag around two units (but make better use of it) just to not suck. If Olwen misses, she gets her ass kicked. She's completely reliant on luck of hitting enemies with her bad accuracy and wonky RNG. Enemies have leadership too ya know. Also, if she's so fragile and we're gonna give her ambush to meta-tank, why the hell are we so happy she has 4 PCR? Lets say she isn't using the overrated Dime Thunder. She hits, gets hit, then crits. Uh-oh, here comes more people! Even with ambush, she suddenly doesn't become perfect, it just gives her a VERY risky tactical use.

On the other hand, Eyrios becomes more durable and can actually be used outside of being an arch knight/a suicidal meta-tank. So...make one unit vaguely usable, or make a usable unit even more usable? hmmmm....

[Dat Nick]

wait a damn minute

Anyway, even if it does, it's only 20 uses AND you have Leaf and Fin's leadership stars AND support bonus

So...leadership and support works for Olwen, and not Othin?

[Lord Raven]

Aether is unreliable.

Doesn't make it any less sex.

Aether was "sex"? An unreliable move is definitely not "sex".

[Seph]

Aether is unreliable.

Doesn't make it any less sex.

Speechless.

And that's REALLY damn good. 20% adds up fast. Add in that Eyrios has something called "durability" and it's very realistic that Sol will activate before he dies more often than not.

No, it happens in 1/5 battles, it is unreliable.

ONLY? Look at what this skill does for Shiva and then tell me it's "ONLY" 20%.

Yes, makes him heal himself 1 out of 5 battles. Not counting battles in which the enemy has 2 range. Excellent.

Do you just pick fights with people whenever or something?

This is a simple debate. This is not a fight. You don't have to dramatize any of this.

Anyways, A. Leaf and Fin would rather be with their friends like Nanna, Felgus, Halvan, Othin, Brighton to make sure they always hit (Nanna being near invincible with the earth sword, Felgus due to being a durable dude with 5 PCR, Othin for his mad crit skills to not miss, Brighton to hit his wrathful strikes and Halvan to be unkillable with brave axe in hand). These people have durability, so unlike Olwen they don't HAVE to drag around two units (but make better use of it) just to not suck. If Olwen misses, she gets her ass kicked. She's completely reliant on luck of hitting enemies with her bad accuracy and wonky RNG. Enemies have leadership too ya know. Also, if she's so fragile and we're gonna give her ambush to meta-tank, why the hell are we so happy she has 4 PCR? Lets say she isn't using the overrated Dime Thunder. She hits, gets hit, then crits. Uh-oh, here comes more people! Even with ambush, she suddenly doesn't become perfect, it just gives her a VERY risky tactical use.

Supports may be one-way. The support bonus is to accuracy, avoid, critical and critical evade, and comes into effect when the supporting characters are within 3 squares radius of one another.

No problems of being in reach of each other.

I've repeated myself over 9000 times. You trade a mass of scrolls to her and she gets fixed up effortlessly and quickly.

In Chapter 12, the enemies are crappy. Brigands only have about 70 hit and 14-19 (mostly 15-16) might. Adding in leadership and support, that's like 50% to hit for the brigands. That already means several attacks.

On the other hand, Eyrios becomes more durable and can actually be used outside of being an arch knight/a suicidal meta-tank. So...make one unit vaguely usable, or make a usable unit even more usable? hmmmm....

Eyrios with Ambush is just.. stupid. You have to rely on a retarded 20% chance? Fuck off. He can barely kill anything for fucks sake.

Olwen improvement >>>>> Eyrios improvement.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Shanan

[Dat Nick]

Aether was "sex"? An unreliable move is definitely not "sex".

...you're REALLY overplaying the "unreliable" argument, just so you know. You can't discredit something "unreliable" for being good just because it's "unreliable". You make it sound like Ike is consistently relying on it. Furthermore, he doubles consistently, which ups the activation rate even more.

Ike has ridiculous avo, HP, and Def. It's hard just to damage him. Also, Aether is skill%. Ike also has good skill. This equates to epic win durability.

No, it happens in 1/5 battles, it is unreliable.

Shooting yourself back up to full health is VERY damn good for one out of five battles. Shiva usually won't be close to dying in five. Also, if you see a good portion of things with 50% or something hit on you, you can't assume they're all going to connect just because it's a 1 RN system.

btw, it's 20% per SWING, not per round. Shiva is pretty much going to double everything, so try every THREE rounds.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Seph]

Shooting yourself back up to full health is VERY damn good for one out of five battles. Shiva usually won't be close to dying in five. Also, if you see a good portion of things with 50% or something hit on you, you can't assume they're all going to connect just because it's a 1 RN system.

btw, it's 20% per SWING, not per round. Shiva is pretty much going to double everything, so try every THREE rounds.

Forgive my poor usage of words.

It's still unreliable. I guess it depends on playstyle more than anything, though.

[Dat Nick]

It's still unreliable.

not nearly unreliable enough to discredit it

[Seph]

not nearly unreliable enough to discredit it

It's definitely better than nothing. But it's just not reliable. You can't say "Oh, I'm sure Shiva will heal himself" and let him take several enemy attacks.

And that once in every 3 rounds will be at about chapter 17 - 18 only. Before that, it's just argh.

[Mekkah]

You guys aren't even debating Olwen vs Eyrios anymore, you're nitpicking each other's paragraphs to unreadable portions of tl;dr.

As for her tactic being "risky", as long as she's killing whatever comes at her with two Dime Thunder shots, she is fine. She has 91% base hit, and enemy AS is retarded on anything but like thieves (and those don't attack). And then she has 180% hit growth, and nobody cares about the Odo scroll (60% more hit growth).

For Nanna "rather being at Othin's", look again. The two don't exclude each other. She has a range of 3 tiles around her for giving Charisma. And if for some reason you want to make sure both Othin and Olwen hit on seperate places, you can place Nanna near Olwen and then let Othin use Pugi. For Leaf, for the majority of the game he isn't even fighting, so he has plenty of room to go near Olwen. Let's not forget Olwen can also cart herself into Leaf's range thanks to 1-2 range and move again.

I don't see how Olwen's 4 PCC can ever hinder her Ambush/Dime Thunder combo. Maybe if she wanted to limit her exposal, but it's more like the opposite.

[Dat Nick]

You can't say "Oh, I'm sure Shiva will heal himself" and let him take several enemy attacks.

Sure I can, because Shiva actually has durability and can easily take these several enemy attacks so even if a few hit him it's no big deal.

[grandjackal]

So suddenly terrain doesn't exist, leadership people and Nanna have no one better to be around, we're suddenly turtling every single map, the fact that ambush is the only thing between her from sucking to sucking less when someone who outclasses her can use it too and make good use out of it himself goes better to someone who sucks and doesn't become significantly better with it, Eyrios's durability existing and being pretty good stopped existing too, offense stats being more important than defense stats suddenly became true, Dime Thunder suddenly doesn't kill Olwen's already not stellar evade, AND Olwen calling attention to herself is now a GOOD thing!?

Did someone slip me crazy pills!? I'm done here, I can see I won't be getting through to anyone here.

[Seph]

Sure I can, because Shiva actually has durability and can easily take these several enemy attacks so even if a few hit him it's no big deal.

And suddenly, the 1 RN system, enemy leadership and FE5's maximum of 60 avoid, Shiva's poor defensive stats ceased to exist.

[grandjackal]

And suddenly, the 1 RN system, enemy leadership and FE5's maximum of 60 avoid, Shiva's poor defensive stats ceased to exist.

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=shiva&game=5

Has the same durability as base Olwen at his own base with two more speed and a weapon that doesn't completely kill his speed along with actual build growth, better defense and HP growth to an actually pretty crazy amount for a swordmaster, skill climbing pretty quick to get better Solar Shot activation rate, all coming earlier on top of this to give him more time to level.

You didn't seriously think his durability was all reliant on dodge, did you? That's Olwen, not Shiva. Hell, Shiva has better dodge than Olwen. If we're gonna bash Shiva, we're gonna crucify Olwen here.

I could name someone else who's more durable, but you won't listen...

Edited February 28, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Seph]

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=shiva&game=5

Has the same durability as base Olwen at his own base with two more speed and a weapon that doesn't completely kill his speed along with actual build growth, better defense and HP growth to an actually pretty crazy amount for a swordmaster, skill climbing pretty quick to get better Solar Shot activation rate.

You didn't seriously think his durability was all reliant on dodge, did you? That's Olwen, not Shiva.

That... did nothing to prove your point.

[Dat Nick]

And suddenly, the 1 RN system

What, this means that a 50% is always going to hit? If three guys attack Shiva odds are 12.5% that all three are going to hit, 1 RN or not. And this isn't even close to killing Shiva, btw, even if the odds get defied and that 12.5 chance connects.

Shiva's poor defensive stats ceased to exist.

oh yes

because Shiva is so totally 100% reliant on avoid

nope, he totally doesn't have solid HP/Def numbers to back it up as well

Edited February 28, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[grandjackal]

That... did nothing to prove your point.

You bashed Shiva, yet you are here glorifying Olwen. It was about dodge I believe, which I believe you thought Olwen had such good amounts of...Olwen's spells always weigh her down, she has worse growths in dodge, and has worse durability in general compared to him. Yet...

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=eyrios&game=5

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=shiva&game=5

Look how close they are in durability. Shiva has 2 defense on him, and that's if we're waiting till level 20 to promote Shiva. He has more skill for Solar Shot (5% difference) and Strength (by a deadly 6, but again this is considering if we're waiting till level 20 to promote him). He's got lots more speed, but 14 base at his arrival is not horrid by any means. Con is bad yeah, but at least he has the strength to not have to rely on a heavy as hell spell. 0 PCR is'nt good, but he's actually durable on a decent level so this helps him be a weakener. Thanks to this durability and Solar Shot, he can take on a a group of reasonable size (reasonable, not big) and weaken them so your team can ust easily tear through them. All this without needing leaders and Nanna around to just not miss. Ambush on him can allow him a saving grace to activate Solar Shot while Olwen gets the abilty to do something risky.

Eyrios isn't as durable as Shiva by any means, but it's better than anything Olwen can do. Weakening several enemies for your army to easily tear through with magic back-up AND the ability to use thunderstorm without work> risking it all for one unit to do everything with a heavy inaccurate spell >> Her without ambush. Ambush doesn't save her from sucking, it just makes her suck less. Eyrios goes from pretty good to a slight bit better. Slight bit better > sucking anyways.

[Seph]

What, this means that a 50% is always going to hit? If three guys attack Shiva odds are 12.5% that all three are going to hit, 1 RN or not. And this isn't even close to killing Shiva, btw, even if the odds get defied and that 12.5 chance connects.

I never said that.

oh yes

because Shiva is so totally 100% reliant on avoid

nope, he totally doesn't have solid HP/Def numbers to back it up as well

Again, I never said that.

Solid? Shiva has some of the lowest HP/Def stats out of the melee fighters.

You bashed Shiva, yet you are here glorifying Olwen. It was about dodge I believe, which I believe you thought Olwen had such good amounts of...Olwen's spells always weigh her down, she has worse growths in dodge, and has worse durability in general compared to him. Yet...

I was talking about Olwen's general efficiency back then. I am not talking about Shiva's general efficiency now. I am talking about Sunlight Hit. Shiva is one of the best characters in the game, and I know that Olwen is fragile.

I should rephrase. Olwen's avoid isn't high enough for her to be taking huge amounts of enemies, but it's still enough to get a A thunder by chapter 13. Shiva's avoid is good, but it's not good enough (no one's is) to take on armies with Sunlight Hit.

Sigh.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Shanan

[General Spoon]

I never said that.

Again, I never said that.

Solid? Shiva has some of the lowest HP/Def stats out of the melee fighters.

I was talking about Olwen's general efficiency back then. I am not talking about Shiva's general efficiency now. I am talking about Sunlight Hit. Shiva is one of the best characters in the game, and I know that Olwen is fragile.

I should rephrase. Olwen's avoid isn't high enough for her to be taking huge amounts of enemies, but it's still enough to get a A thunder by chapter 13. Shiva's avoid is good, but it's not good enough (no one's is) to take on armies with Sunlight Hit.

Sigh.

Hey, guess what! If you advocate giving scrolls to Olwen when she's about to level up, why can't we give scrolls to Shiva when he's about to level up to fix his "duribility problems?"