Who should get ambush?

[Dat Nick]

I've been talking about skills since the start

Not in that paticular statement, you said "omg Shiva has crap HP/def compared to other chars" wow, never realized the 2 def Fin has on him is such a gaping difference.

Sunhit is UNRELIABLE.

You seriously need to try harder than this. Repeating a point over and over with no evidence other than "ITS UNRELIABLE SO IT SUX." is a terribly weak argument.

20% per swing. That's an activation. Every three rounds. On a character who needs WAY more than three hits to be bought down.

All you have to do is not be an idiot. You don't ASSUME it's going to activate every three rounds. You don't expect it to activate if Shiva needs to dodge or activate Sol to live on a bunch of enemies with ~50 hit on him. You just play him as if he DIDN'T had Sol and if it activates, then Win, Saphy/Tina/your other healers can heal somebody else. if not, then he heals.

Hey, you know what ELSE is unreliable? Prayer. I need to be at low HP to use it and there's no guarantee it works? Seriously, what the hell is the logic in this? Fapping over Prayer but condeming Sol, when Sol is a billion times more reliable than Prayer?

Edited March 1, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Seph]

Not in that paticular statement, you said "omg Shiva has crap HP/def compared to other chars" wow, never realized the 2 def Fin has on him is such a gaping difference.

If you want to, okay.

35 HP Shiva and Fin. Fin has 12 def, Shiva has 10 def.

An enemy has 15 might. Fin dies in 12 hits. Shiva dies in 7 hits.

An enemy has 17 might. Fin dies in 7 hits. Shiva dies in 5 hits.

An enemy has 20 might. Fin dies in 5 hits. Shiva dies in 4 hits.

An enemy has 22 might. Fin dies in 4 hits. Shiva dies in 3 hits.

An enemy has 23 might. Fin dies in 4 hits. Shiva dies in 3 hits.

Pretty significant, and my point has been proved.

You seriously need to try harder than this. Repeating a point over and over with no evidence other than "ITS UNRELIABLE SO IT SUX." is a terribly weak argument.

Which you were terribly unable to counter.

I don't need to address any other points after this:

All you have to do is not be an idiot. You don't ASSUME it's going to activate every three rounds. You don't expect it to activate if Shiva needs to dodge or activate Sol to live on a bunch of enemies with ~50 hit on him. You just play him as if he DIDN'T had Sol and if it activates, then Win, Saphy/Tina/your other healers can heal somebody else. if not, then he heals.

...Thank you. That actually proved my argument. What are you arguing for now?

You just said you can't rely on Sol. Thanks.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Shanan

[grandjackal]

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Olwen, with Ambush, cannot effect your team's efficiency is a negative way because she has a hard time missing. She will be murdering things before they hit her.

Leaf and Fin's leadership stars are always active, wherever they may be.

Nanna and Olwen have like, very similar move, so they have to be very close.

Leaf and Olwen may not have the same move, but at least the support thing occurs in 3 range.

She won't get doubled if she kills everything. And armors have poor AS, like 3-0, so no problems there. Armors are very common. And now,

As for her tactic being "risky", as long as she's killing whatever comes at her with two Dime Thunder shots, she is fine. She has 91% base hit, and enemy AS is retarded on anything but like thieves (and those don't attack). And then she has 180% hit growth, and nobody cares about the Odo scroll (60% more hit growth).

For Nanna "rather being at Othin's", look again. The two don't exclude each other. She has a range of 3 tiles around her for giving Charisma. And if for some reason you want to make sure both Othin and Olwen hit on seperate places, you can place Nanna near Olwen and then let Othin use Pugi. For Leaf, for the majority of the game he isn't even fighting, so he has plenty of room to go near Olwen. Let's not forget Olwen can also cart herself into Leaf's range thanks to 1-2 range and move again.

I don't see how Olwen's 4 PCC can ever hinder her Ambush/Dime Thunder combo. Maybe if she wanted to limit her exposal, but it's more like the opposite.

I was talking about Sunhit from the beginning.

I'll counter anything about Eyrios which is illogical to me.

Rrrr...Must have a faulty rom or something, as it's as if leadership is utterly pointless if that's the case. Neh, I dunno...Would explain a lot of the horrid luck I experience when playing this game...

Well if that's the case, I'm not sure what to think of Olwen at this point. Either I have the worst luck with accuracy, my rom is cursed, or just Olwen refuses to be good with me even with using her in an arch knight fashion. So...guess I concede the point I guess.

Doesn't mean I have to like her though. *suicides her into the invaders of Glade's Fortress*

[Seph]

Rrrr...Must have a faulty rom or something, as it's as if leadership is utterly pointless if that's the case. Neh, I dunno...Would explain a lot of the horrid luck I experience when playing this game...

Hm, it goes for the enemy too. I don't think it's your rom.

Doesn't mean I have to like her though. *suicides her into the invaders of Glade's Fortress*

Olwen is not ugly.

[grandjackal]

Hm, it goes for the enemy too. I don't think it's your rom.

Olwen is not ugly.

Wow, this is an utter turn XD You can be vicious ya know.

Either way, I have the worst luck with making hits land. 80 in the GBA games is a bad chance I can't take. Hell, any number below 95 makes me nervous.

I hate her more out of a grudge really. That and she looks like they trapped a mouse under a dirty mop. It's the same grudges I have to hand axes, or any ranged weapon for that matter.

You have to admit though that Eyrios is cuuute~<3

[Dat Nick]

You just said you can't rely on Sol. Thanks.

This doesn't make it not handy for when it does activate, which happens before Shiva dies pretty frequently.

An enemy has 15 might. Fin dies in 12 hits. Shiva dies in 7 hits.

An enemy has 17 might. Fin dies in 7 hits. Shiva dies in 5 hits.

An enemy has 20 might. Fin dies in 5 hits. Shiva dies in 4 hits.

And odds are Shiva activates Sol before he gets hit four times or more.

[Seph]

This doesn't make it not handy for when it does activate, which happens before Shiva dies pretty frequently.

Being handy /=/ being sex.

It's better than nothing, it does help in certain occasions (not many), but it is still not a great addition.

And odds are Shiva activates Sol before he gets hit four times or more.

We were talking about the HP/def stats only. Don't change the subject.

Okay, if you want, let's change the subject. Fin has 20 luck with Brave Lance at that level. That means +60 avoid from Prayer. Fucking neat.

He already has 54 avoid. 104 avoid wins.

[Mekkah]

Prayer doesn't work like that. As far we know, Prayer's effect is this:

If the enemy's attack will KO the user, user has 100% avoid

I presume this means the enemy will have 0% hit (maybe 1% since this is Thracia after all). Now, let's look at Prayer's activation rate. Luk*3%. This means you cannot just stack it onto your avoid like that.

Say an enemy has 100 hit, and we have a Fin that's about to die with 20 Spd/20 Luk and Brave Lance for +10 luk, so overall we have 70 evade against this 100 hit enemy, plus 90% Prayer. For this enemy to hit, he has to get past Fin's normal avoid (30% chance), and then he has to not activate Prayer (10% chance). 30% times 10% makes 3%.

If it worked your way, this 100 hit enemy would not be able to hit Fin at all, but that isn't true.

Also, again I'm going to stress that you guys grasp too much in side points and aren't really debating Eyrios vs Olwen as much as you are debating "zomg Sun Sword is not reliable" and "Olwen ganna die becoz miss" and "Charisma won't be near". Not only does it look childish, but it's also boring to read.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Mekkah

[Seph]

I presume this means the enemy will have 0% hit (maybe 1% since this is Thracia after all). Now, let's look at Prayer's activation rate. Luk*3%. This means you cannot just stack it onto your avoid like that.

I totally read that wrong in Serenes, my bad.

Also, again I'm going to stress that you guys grasp too much in side points and aren't really debating Eyrios vs Olwen as much as you are debating "zomg Sun Sword is not reliable" and "Olwen ganna die becoz miss" and "Charisma won't be near". Not only does it look childish, but it's also boring to read.

No one really forced you to read it or anyone else for that matter, and the debate moved from Eyrios vs Olwen to the side points because they mattered in Eyrios vs Olwen itself.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Shanan

[grandjackal]

Yeah, they're actually pretty close in comparison, IMO at least. I just happen to have a grudge against Olwen, so...

That and I have a bad habit of blabbing on and on and on. I should get checked for OCD.

[Mekkah]

No one really forced you to read it or anyone else for that matter

Thank god no. Then again, nobody forced anyone to read anything, but that doesn't mean cluttering a thread isn't annoying.

[grandjackal]

Thank god no. Then again, nobody forced anyone to read anything, but that doesn't mean cluttering a thread isn't annoying.

Nyeh, it's my fault. I got goaded, I continued this and then the thread explodes. Sorry 'bout it.

...Think the guy who started the topic decided who to use ambush on by now?

[Seph]

Thank god no. Then again, nobody forced anyone to read anything, but that doesn't mean cluttering a thread isn't annoying.

As long as we were on topic, it's perfectly fine.

[General Spoon]

Nyeh, it's my fault. I got goaded, I continued this and then the thread explodes. Sorry 'bout it.

...Think the guy who started the topic decided who to use ambush on by now?

I gave it to Mareeta. In chapter 22, I finally decided I'd give it to her.

[grandjackal]

I gave it to Mareeta. In chapter 22, I finally decided I'd give it to her.

You waited till chapter 22?...

*looks back on all the ranting and raving on this thread* ...

We didn't help, did we?

[Seph]

You waited till chapter 22?...

*looks back on all the ranting and raving on this thread* ...

We didn't help, did we?

Mareeta is atleast a semi decent user of Ambush.

Nice name, by the way.

[grandjackal]

Mareeta is atleast a semi decent user of Ambush.

Nice name, by the way.

Yes, she is indeed. Mareeta sword is awesome like that.

Also, we all have gone far from the forest...

[Lord Raven]

Furthermore, I'm not going to attack something when Ike has 1 HP and hope Aether activates. We just hope it does so I don't have to heal him. Aether's a last resort.

And what a terrible last resort!

...earlygame isn't the entire game. Ike phails much less.

Doesn't stop him from being less than most of the other units deployed at this point.

furthermore, Ike can only hold so many skills. Giving him like Wrath and Vantage and letting Resolve, Adept, etc go to waste is just plain stupid.

Of course you're not going to give him more than two, nor are you letting the other ones go to waste. I'm saying that Wrath/Vantage/Resolve are more reliable than Aether/Adept/whatever.

Except you're harping far too much on "unreliable" because even at 20/1 he's got a nice activation rate for it that stacks up pretty quickly. Being more reliable doesn't necessarily mean better.

17% activation rate is not "nice" >_> It gives you a 31.11% chance of activation per battle... he doesn't even break 50% until the third battle, and even then he doesn't really break 50% of activating a second aether for another 3 or 4. Add onto that how he has tons of evade at this point and comes close to one rounding, and if not one rounding he already is, everything in the game.

[General Spoon]

Aether isn't a last resort. It improves duribility by making healing not as required.

[dondon151]

Sweet mother of god, I stopped reading the moment you said she had awesome enemy phase offense. At least I should have, because I didn't think you'd bring up fail like Fred and Glade and dreaming we give them continue.

lol, how does that make Fred and Glade not want Continue more than Olwen? Low tier doesn't exist! Let me tell you something, dude, improving a low tier increases efficiency more more than improving a top tier (basic principle of economics), thus it stands that all low tiers would want Continue more than Olwen. Please actually read and consider points instead of looking at 4 words and going "lol what an idiot" because I sure as hell don't do that (though I'm very tempted to).

How many situations are there where we're trading back and forth in the middle of battle unless we're turtling and generally getting through the chapter slowly? Either you're having her finish someone off (way to make no use of her mobility by keeping her turtled. Well at least if she wasn't so fail, maybe we COULD do something more than turtling and spoon-feeding her kills like this...), or the situation is that she TRIED to attack, but MISSED! Which she will do quite often.

Trading stuff onto Olwen does not sacrifice movement or turns or whatever the hell you're suggesting. Furthermore, half of your team can re-move. Did you just completely ignore my point that units will often get the opportunity to trade and attack in the same turn because of the way enemy density is configured? Olwen's pony and 2-range ability makes it even easier for her.

NO she CAN'T use magic swords! Why? SWORD RANK! She has a C and 5 strength. Lololololol. Reason I brought up magic swords by the way, is because they do PHYSICAL damage up close and MAGIC at range. He's 2 points off with magic being the weaker of the two. So he can not only do actual damage physically, it gives him an excellent weapon to attack more efficiently on enemy phase. Weighs him down by a pathetically small amount, has great speed to go with it...he helps your team easily rip through groups, as opposed to Olwen attacking one punk a turn and might not even kill them. Sleep swords make it easier to capture. So he having them means to make capturing easy and getting free shit, magic swords for all around great enemy phase offense thanks to durability, access to Armorslayers, Rapiers, Silver Swords, status swords...All of these, Olwen cannot use. They are not locked to him, but that doesn't mean he can't use them. Olwen doesn't have teh rank. She can't use them.

Wow... 50 uses of a sword... Olwen definitely has the ability to use magic swords by the time Eyrios comes around (though who would use swords when Wind is around anyway?). I'm also going to remind you that B rank lets her use Armorslayer, Silver Sword, and Hero Sword, and Olwen can use Rapiers off the bat (she uses Rapiers better by the way because of PCC). 5 strength actually matters little when 4 PCC's kicking in to double MT. I'm also completely confused by your logic that Eyrios is magically butchering enemies with a magic sword while Olwen isn't doing anything; sounds like some strong bias. At least Olwen has a higher chance at killing with 4 PCC and more awesome weapons.

Funny thing about FE theory is that every now and then, we seem to run into goons that think there's only one enemy at a time. That, I should inform you, is bullshit in this game.

I did not assume that there was only going to be 1 enemy at a time. Stop putting words in my mouth. Olwen can do like, 3 enemies at a time, which isn't bad.

Her durability isn't bad? He gave her two levels where even 1 would be pushing it, AND against the worst enemy in the first chapter she doesn't get utterly buttfucked in.

That's Shanan's problem, and the whole rest of the paragraph is a chore to read and contains a whole lot of theoryFE that holds a questionable amount of water.

I don't remember saying wrath sucks. In fact, you got it backwards. Wrath rocks!...on OTHIN! I haven't seen people try to argue up MIRANDA because of wrath! Wanna know why? If she kills with the wrath, she's attracting more attention to her WHEN SHE CAN'T TAKE THE SHOTS! Wrath isn't good just because it's called wrath. Same with Ambush. Just because it's ambush doesn't mean it'll just become a miracle cure for Olwen. Durability goes a long way to make skills great. Othin is great because he has it and the durability to not rely on dodge, teh same with Halvan and Ambush. Ambush is great if you're durable...Durable being the key word.

No, I did not say that you said Wrath sucks (again, you're putting words in my mouth). I haven't seen people try to argue up Miranda because her join situation is absolutely terrible; no one gives a fuck about her Wrath if she just sucks way too much to be used. Olwen, at least, is worth of being used. No one seems to mind Sara having Wrath either. Good offense is good offense, no matter how much you try to skew it. As for Ambush... giving Ambush to Olwen lets the player use her a lot more flexibly. I can't see how Ambush could possibly be bad on her; durability's almost a nonfactor if Olwen kills enemies before they can attack her (her hit rate is good, by the way).

You apparently cannot grasp what enemy phase offense is. The holy sword would be great if enemies were stupid and didn't have shit like rewarp by the time you get the damn thing. She COULD magic tank, if anything was stupid enough to tink her with magic. Unfortunately, the AI in this game is quite excellent. They'll just ignore her. so her offense is now WORSE due to LESS enemies she can counter... FE DS General Sedgar is considered godly because he comes with defense made from heaven. That defense would be useless if the enemy could just walk right through him and targeting your more weaker units. This is what happens when the enemy has rewarp and she has the holy sword equipped. Same way Sety can't be considered a dodge tank, because if the enemy can't hit him, they'll just walk past him to hit someone they can hit.

This is such an outrageous double standard. I'm not even going to bother arguing this, as the point defeats itself. Good durability is good durability, but it's not good durability? OK bro...

Now that I think about it, how DOES Continue activate? *checks* Attack speed is the percentage? HA! Ok the, she isn't even putting THAT to good use either! There doesn't seem to be any other way for her to fail outside of Dime Thunder's pure risk offense...Why risk it when Eyrios is a pretty cool guy that can tank a bit without needing the skill in the first place?...

DT/HS isn't her only means of doing anything. I've pretty much said and qualified this in every post, and you've ignored it. Don't do it again.

[Lord Raven]

Eyrios is magically butchering enemies with a magic sword

No shit, really?

I deserve to get shot for this. Thank you.

[grandjackal]

Just to ask the community at large here, is there any reason to take Dondon seriously by any means?

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, because he isn't a tard.

[grandjackal]

Wondered if he realized I conceded anyways. Only due to realizing her accuracy with dime thunder isn't that bad and I'm just grudgingly unlucky with hit.

Otherwise, just wanna say that 50 uses doing meh damage just to boost the sword rank is kinda dumb. Most useful swords would weigh her down. Also makes her have to attack up close and isn't doing any better with ambush using swords. Just stick with Dime Thunder. Maybe with continue it would help her out...

Durability is great if enemies attack you. How it works is you goad the enemy to attack your tank unit. The tank unit remains relatively unharmed and your guys jump the fool enemies who attacked the tank With the holy sword equipped, mages will just walk passed her and target vulnerable units, paying her no mind and thus making her newfound durability pointless. By the time she gets this, enemies are starting to pack master weapons. Her durability has not improved by so much as to be able to take a good amount of punishment here. Snipers will eat her alive. Thanks to not having Dime Thunder equipped, they'll attack her without reprisal/not eating an ambushed Dime Thunder.

Glade and Fred would LOVE continue, but there are many above them. Fatigue isn't so bad that we eventually have to use bad units. Even considering economy, they still have a big list of competition that could use it better than they. Olwen (Continue+the rapier stuff you brought up = win), Eyrios (for magic sword ownage), Trewd (to be something outside of the blandest unit in the game), Machua (due to her win speed, yet poor strength), there's more a list. Even considering, Glade and Fred aren't getting it.

Otherwise, I now agree with you at this point, aside from the little nitpicks up there. I should stop arguing when it gets down to statistic, because I'm always so unlucky in game that I can't base it on stats alone. I just kinda blew up because Olwen is by far the worst offender of this to me. So I'm done arguing, if you want to continue, bring it up to someone else.

[dondon151]

No shit, really?

I deserve to get shot for this. Thank you.

Pun wasn't intended >.>

Wondered if he realized I conceded anyways. Only due to realizing her accuracy with dime thunder isn't that bad and I'm just grudgingly unlucky with hit.

Oops, I didn't read that far. Eyrios is good competition over Olwen, but whatever slight leads he has when they might both exist doesn't compensate for his absence.

Otherwise, just wanna say that 50 uses doing meh damage just to boost the sword rank is kinda dumb. Most useful swords would weigh her down. Also makes her have to attack up close and isn't doing any better with ambush using swords. Just stick with Dime Thunder. Maybe with continue it would help her out...

Eyrios has 6 build against Olwen's 5 at base level.

Durability is great if enemies attack you. How it works is you goad the enemy to attack your tank unit. The tank unit remains relatively unharmed and your guys jump the fool enemies who attacked the tank With the holy sword equipped, mages will just walk passed her and target vulnerable units, paying her no mind and thus making her newfound durability pointless. By the time she gets this, enemies are starting to pack master weapons. Her durability has not improved by so much as to be able to take a good amount of punishment here. Snipers will eat her alive. Thanks to not having Dime Thunder equipped, they'll attack her without reprisal/not eating an ambushed Dime Thunder.

I already understood what you're getting at, but this logic makes it so that great defense is bad for the team while bad defense is bad for the character, making any defense... bad. Your team's defensive shortcomings will be present regardless of whether Olwen equips the HS, so would you rather improve just Olwen's magic or not improve anyone's magic at all?

Glade and Fred would LOVE continue, but there are many above them. Fatigue isn't so bad that we eventually have to use bad units. Even considering economy, they still have a big list of competition that could use it better than they. Olwen (Continue+the rapier stuff you brought up = win), Eyrios (for magic sword ownage), Trewd (to be something outside of the blandest unit in the game), Machua (due to her win speed, yet poor strength), there's more a list. Even considering, Glade and Fred aren't getting it.

Then replace Glade and Fred with Trewd and Machua. The former two may have low chances at being used, but it's not assumed that they won't be used at all. If they aren't going to be used, then the player will use other units that would still want Continue more than Olwen (I also brought up Hicks and Trewd). Enemies in this game have more defense than magic in general, so melee units would love that chance at an extra hit while magic units are doing good damage anyway.