Rolf (Ether)vs. Leonardo (Camtech075)

[CT075]

Because Shinon is too awesome.

Coming soon.

[CT075]

So what do we have here? An Archer, one of two ranged units in a team of mainly physical units, and a Sniper that's inferior to the other Sniper on the team. Leonardo wins.

Now, in P1, Rolf is busy trying to get Mist to have it with him, and Leonardo is busy defending his country. In P2, Leonardo is helping rebuild his country, whereas Rolf is getting his ass kicked by Shinon, until the little kid chickens out and lets Shinon save Lucia. In P3, Rolf is being inferior to Shinon in every way, and probably is being a royal pain in the (bad)ass to Boyd. Leonardo is continuing to help his country. Guess who's being more useful.

Leo is very inferior to Shinon, as is Rolf. Leo is also lacking defnsively and offensively when he joins. But that's okay, since all of the DB (barring Zihark, Nolan and Sothe) start out slowly (bad) and get better with training. Rolf, however, starts out sub-par and ends right on par. So Leonardo takes more effort, but Rolf reaps less rewards at the end. Leo>Rolf.

By 4-E-4, Leonardo is beating Rolf with his higher RES, SKL, and LCK. Really, those are the important stats at Endgame. So Leo still beats Rolf.

Rolf, compared to the other units on Ike's team, phails. Leonardo, compared to the Dawn Brigade, is right on par. Leo>>Rolf

Neither of them have an affinity worth leaping for, but Leo's +.5 ATK and +.5 DEF is better than Rolf's +2.5 Acc and Avo. The accuracy is lol, and if a unit wants an avoid boost, they go for an Earth affinity. The same could be said for Leo's boosts, too, except that both of those boosts are useful, and Water is the only affinity that includes both of said boosts. So a Leo support>a Rolf support.

This is probably the shortest opener I'm ever going to write, since I don't have the heart to retype all the stuff that I just accidentally deleted. This is just a summary of why Leo beats Moss-Head. I'll go into it in more detail in a later post.

[Ether]

To respond to you're little speech thar,I have one thing to say,while Leo is there at the daein liberation,the only help he's giving is increasing Morale with his Feminine appearance and lack of ability to get out of any HARD situation(yes I went there).Anyway,on the battlefield,Leo is basically useless.

Lets start at Leo's joining Chapter,here are his bases

Leonardo(Iron Bow) Lvl 4

Hp 17,Mt 14,115 hit,26 avo,10 AS,and 5 Def.

Now that is pretty sad,now let's look at his opposition:

2x Bandit lvl 3 (Bronze Axe)

HP 27, Atk 11, AS 6, Hit 96, Avo 13, DEF 4, RES 0, Crit 0, Ddg 1

3x Bandit lvl 4 (Bronze Axe, one carries droppable Herb)

HP 28, Atk 11, AS 7, Hit 99, Avo 16, DEF 5, RES 1, Crit 0, Ddg 2

2x Bandit lvl 5 (Bronze Axe)

HP 29, Atk 12, AS 8, Hit 101, Avo 20, DEF 6, RES 1, Crit 0, Ddg 2

1x Pugo (boss, non-droppable Iron Axe and Vulnerary)

HP 27, Atk 19, AS 10, Hit104, Avo 28, DEF 8, RES 1, Crit 4, Ddg 8

Well,Leo fails to one round anything,although that is expected in hard mode,and only doubles the lvl 3 bandits,2-rounding them,and 4 rounding the other bandits (5 rounding the boss) because he fails at doubling.

So we've established that Leo has fail offense,compared to Mister suck Edward,who two rounds the lvl 4 Bandits as well, 3 rounding the lvl 5's,as well as being more durable.Good job Leonardo.Even Micaiah is doing better than him because she hits res,except against the lvl 3's.

Now you might say "but Leo won't get attacked,so his durability doesn't matter",WRONG.Although 2 - Range increases his durability,it also makes him instantly targeted by everything,and Edward can't exactly tank them back.

If Leo is attacked,it's LOLable.Enemy hit rates on him are 70% display hit at minimum,and although he is 3 rounded,If the bandit can get through to him once,unless everything done on the next turn is killing that bandit,it will hit him again,meaning he has to heal desperately.When going after the boss,chances are Leo will be gang raped,and if he is ever in range of two bandits(which is quite likely if you ever want him close enough to attack something)he is almost guaranteed to die.

As part one continues,the enemies get stronger,and Leo,he tries to keep up,and fails,being 2 rounded for almost the whole of part 1,by almost everything.

So by the end of Part one,Leo will probably be somewhere around lvl 16,considering he only has player phase offense,and can;t ever be exposed,he is probably lower,but I'll be nice.

Now in part two Rolf shows up in what is IMO,the best cutscene in the game,and guess what,he wasn't actually nervous,he was just letting Shinon take the spotlight so the old guy doesn't feel bad,what a nice guy.

Now in 3-P,Rolf starts fighting,along with the Greil Mercs,Shinon is outdamaging Rolf quite handily,So it's fair to give Rolf that killer bow to help him out,and here are his bases:

Rolf(Killer Bow) lvl 1

Hp 32,Mt 25,Hit 133,AS 19,Avo 52,Crt 50,Def 13,and Res 9.

Here are the enemies he fights:

1x Swordmaster lvl 7 (Steel Sword)

HP 33, Atk 25, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 57, DEF 15, RES 20, Crit 21, Ddg 13

1x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 8 (Javelin)

HP 36, Atk 26, AS 20, Hit 118, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

1x Lance General lvl 7 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 18, Hit 131, Avo 49, DEF 23, RES 12, Crit 9, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 7 (Steel Poleax)

HP 40, Atk 36, AS 20, Hit 111, Avo 53, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 13

1x Warrior lvl 7 (Steel Axe)

HP 39, Atk 32, AS 20, Hit 126, Avo 53, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 13

1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire)

HP 31, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 54, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10

1x Sniper lvl 6 (Steel Bow, *Coin)

HP 35, Atk 29, AS 19, Hit 135, Avo 61, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 20, Ddg 13

1x Swordmaster lvl 8 (Steel Blade)

HP 33, Atk 30, AS 23, Hit 125, Avo 70, DEF 15, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 14

1x Sword General lvl 8 (Steel Sword)

HP 38, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 51, DEF 24, RES 13, Crit 9, Ddg 15

1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire, Vulnerary)

HP 32, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 44, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10

1x Halberdier lvl 7 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 36, Atk 33, AS 19, Hit 121, Avo 51, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 13

1x Lance General lvl 9 (Horseslayer)

HP 39, Atk 33, AS 17, Hit 119, Avo 50, DEF 23, RES 13, Crit 9, Ddg 16

Now i'll admit,Rolf isn't doing the best here,He is three rounded/two rounded here,although he is less exposed than Leo was because the GM's are pretty durable,however,he plays a good support role.

Now Rolf is 4 rounding on average here,except that sexy Crit which will have him two round anything not called a general or a Halberdier.

Of course you might say "but Rofl only has 36% crit chance lolz",of course we need to factor in bond supports,whick Rolf has plenty of,he has his brothers (easily accessable since Boyd isn't anywhere close to rushing enemies and Oscar has Canto)and Shinon,who is also a bow unit and will be behind with Rolf.

Now that elevates his crit to a shiny 61% chance with bonds,that's around 90% chance to Crit in two rounds.So,now Rolf is 2 rounding 90% of the time,which is more than Leo can say he ever did.So while Rolf is HEADshotting Begnion scum,Leonardo is experimenting with his sexuality again,trying to get Sothe to wear a tighter shirt so he has some fapping material.Nice.

Lets fast forward to 3-6,when Leo gets off his lazy ass and goes to be a racist bastard and shoot Laguz.

Leonardo(Lughnasadh) Lvl 16/0(B Edward)

Hp 24,Mt 30,AS 19,Hit 162,Avo 54,and Def 11

I guess he's improved,or Rather,he got a Prf bow to play with...Anyway,Leonardo is pretty Pathetic here,as you can see:

Cat lvl 14

HP 41, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 136, Avo 46, DEF 12, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 6

Cat lvl 15

HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 7

Cat lvl 16

HP 43, Atk 29, AS 22, Hit 141, Avo 51, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Cat lvl 17

HP 43, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 52, DEF 16, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 8

Tiger lvl 14

HP 48, Atk 32, AS 16, Hit 132, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 4, Crit 9, Ddg 6

Tiger lvl 15

HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6

Tiger lvl 16

HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Tiger lvl 17

HP 51-52, Atk 41, AS 18, Hit 141, Avo 43, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Wow,so he doesn't double attack,so he 3-Rounds the Cats,4-5 rounds the Tigers,and in return is 2-rounded in an open map,except by the 2 lvl 14 cats,which 3 round him,not to mention,any Tiger with S-rank Strike(which is most of them) one rounds him.Poor Leo is doing worse than in part 1,and I even rounded some of his stats up,and he was really bad there.Lets compare him to his buddy Nolan.

Nolan(Tarvos)Lvl 20/2 (B Zihark)

Hp 38,Mt 36,AS 19,Hit 155,Avo 83,and 19 Def

Well,Nolan is 2 rounded at 58% display hit,by the strongest enemy on the map,and the others mostly 3 round him,with even lower hit rates,if he managed to snag an A-Zihark by now(Or A Volug,which would be completed by now as well),than he is dodging like a pro,with 15 extra avoid.

Lets go back to Rolf now,at chapter 3-7.

Rolf(Silencer) lvl --/7 (B Shinon)

Hp 37,Mt 37,AS 22,Hit 166,Avo 69,Crit 26,Def 17,and Res 14

He is facing these Enemies:

1x Warrior lvl 10 (Hand Axe)

HP 42, Atk 32, AS 20, Hit 125, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 10 (Crossbow)

HP 41, Atk 28, AS 20, Hit 155, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 11 (Crossbow)

HP 42, Atk 28, AS 21, Hit 156, Avo 58, DEF 16, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 37, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 123, Avo 53, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Short Spear)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 109, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

2x Halberdier lvl 10 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 139, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 134, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 11 (Killer Lance)

HP 38, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 135, Avo 55, DEF 20, RES 14, Crit 45, Ddg 15

3x Swordmaster lvl 10 (Steel Blade)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 126, Avo 63, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 15

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Wyrmslayer)

HP 34, Atk 29, AS 24, Hit 133, Avo 63, DEF 17, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 15

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Storm Sword)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 114, Avo 64, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 16

2x Axe General lvl 11 (Short Axe)

HP 39, Atk 35, AS 17, Hit 116, Avo 50, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Lance General lvl 11 (Short Spear)

HP 40, Atk 32, AS 18, Hit 111, Avo 52, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Sniper lvl 9 (Steel Bow)

HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 138, Avo 54, DEF 17, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 14

1x Sniper lvl 11 (Steel Longbow)

HP 38, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 122, Avo 56, DEF 18, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 16

4x Wind Sage lvl 10 (Elwind, one has Thunder secondary)

HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 48, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 8, Ddg 12

1x wind Sage lvl 11 (Elwind)

HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 48, DEF 12, RES 18, Crit 8, Ddg 12

2x Thunder Sage lvl 11 (Elthunder)

HP 24, Atk 26, AS 18, Hit 124, Avo 49, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 19, Ddg 13

1x Thunder Sage lvl 10 (Elthunder)

HP 33, Atk 26, AS 17, Hit 123, Avo 46, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 19, Ddg 12

1x Thunder Sage lvl 12 (Elthunder)

HP 34, Atk 26, AS 19, Hit 124, Avo 51, DEF 12, RES 18, Crit 19, Ddg 13

2x Fire Sage lvl 10 (Elfire)

HP 33, Atk 27, AS 18, Hit 132, Avo 49, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 8, Ddg 13

2x Dragonmaster lvl 11 (Steel Poleax)

HP 41, Atk 38, AS 19, Hit 113, Avo 51, DEF 21, RES 7, Crit 10, Ddg 13

1x Dragonmaster lvl 10 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 34, AS 18, Hit 127, Avo 48, DEF 21, RES 7, Crit 10, Ddg 12

2x Bishop lvl 7 (Physic)

HP 29, Atk --, AS 16, Hit --, Avo 51, DEF 10, RES 21, Crit --, Ddg 19

1x Bishop lvl 8 (Physic, Mend)

HP 29, Atk --, AS 16, Hit --, Avo 52, DEF 11, RES 21, Crit --, Ddg 20

Rolf is now doubling some enemies,Mostly generals(Which he now two rounds)Sages(1 rounds) and some DragonMasters (2 rounds the ones he doubles,3 rounds otherwise)He also is now 2 rounding Warriors,Swordmasters and Snipers,and is 1 strength away from 2 rounding Halberdiers(which he could very well have by now with his 75% Str growth)

Rolf is now also quite durable,he is 3/4 rounded by Halberdiers,Swordmasters and Snipers,2/3 rounded by Generals and Dragonmasters,and is 3 rounded by Sages.He is also only seeing Display hit rates averaging out at around 60%(mostly lower),except for the crossbow Warriors,who will most likely hit him(if they reach him,and they 4 round him anyway).Also a fun fact,Rolf one shots Leonardo if they fight here.

If we continue on to part 4,Leonardo is failing even harder,as he is only just reaching second tier,while Rolf can go on Tibarn's route and be third tier for endgame,while Leo might fight Ashera at lvl 20/10 if he's lucky.

Your up,my friend.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Ether

[CT075]

Wow... You're quite aggressive, aren't you? Anyway, a lot of this logic is flawed.

Well,Leo fails to one round anything,although that is expected in hard mode,and only doubles the lvl 3 bandits,2-rounding them,and 4 rounding the other bandits (5 rounding the boss) because he fails at doubling.

So we've established that Leo has fail offense,compared to Mister suck Edward,who two rounds the lvl 4 Bandits as well, 3 rounding the lvl 5's,as well as being more durable.Good job Leonardo.Even Micaiah is doing better than him because she hits res,except against... (shortened to be less time consuming)

If this is a durability argument, then Leonardo can use that shiny Dracoshield, can't he? Because this is HM, that extra DEF is more important than the money it can bring. And, Micaiah isn't doubling, so she's doing about the same as Leo. And, like I said, most of the Dawn Brigade needs some time to become good. And your argument about Leo being 3RKO'd can't really be used as a point against me, because Micky is getting 1-rounded, and Eddie is getting 2-rounded. So Leo's poor dodge isn't really helping you. Leo shouldn't be in range of anything in the Prologue, because advancing forward too fast is suicide. You're right, Leo is getting raped by the boss. BUT, if the player has enough sense to know that everyone there is going to get killed quickly, he will use Eddie to lure units close to you and Leo as a finisher and Micky or an Herb to heal. Eddie is getting two rounded by the boss, and the lack of WTA means that he will get hit more often than not. So Leo is being just as useful as Micky (More so, since if he gains speed on a level up, he can double the Lv. 4 Bandits.) Now, by 1-1, Nolan joins your team, and shits all over Eddie's and Leo's durability. Nolan can lure units in, and Leo/Micky can finish them off ranged. Once you get to the boss, you'll need Leo to kill him. (Unless you fancy the idea of him attacking your unit, which is suicide because only Nolan can stand up to him for a full turn. Then the Hand Axe Fighter next to him says hi.) By 1-2, Laura makes an appearance, being healing utility. As Leonardo comes along and kills enemies with Eddie and Nolan. Micaiah and Leonardo are the only real ranged fighters, because Nolan's Hand Axe is too inaccurate to be relied on too much. It's generally the same story in 1-3, except Illyana comes to make even Nolan's inaccuracy w/ a Hand Axe seem great. Sothe has also come, shitting all over your units durability. Compared to your units, Leonardo is doing fine, assuming the player used him the way an Archer should be used in HM. I'll show you how Leo's doing compared to the units on your team after the chapter.

(To be generous, I'll say that Eddie has gained two levels and Nolan has gained one {Not likely}. It's not really that unreasonable for Leo to have gained a level just with chip damage, maybe another level if he gets some kills. And Micky has gained 3 levels, assuming that she was used slightly more than Leonardo)

Leonardo

Lv. 5 Archer

HP: 17.6

Iron Bow: 2 range--14.4 Atk, 117.15 Hit, 10.35 AS, 27.4 avo--5.35 DEF, 4.55 RES

Steel Bow: 2 range--18.4 Atk, 112.15 Hit, 8.75 AS, 23.15 avo--5.35 DEF, 4.55 RES

Edward

Lv. 6 Myrmidon

HP: 20.7

Iron Sword: 1 range--14.2 Atk, 120.3 hit, 13.2 AS, 5 crit, 35.4 avo--5.7 DEF, 0.4 RES

Wind Edge: 1-2 range--14.2 Atk, 90.3 hit, 11.4 AS, 5 crit, 31.8 avo--5.7 DEF, 0.4 RES

Steel Sword: 1 range--17.2 Atk, 115.3 hit, 10.4 AS, 5 crit, 29.8 avo--5.7 DEF, 0.4 RES

Micaiah

Lv. 4 Light Mage

HP: 16.2

Light: 1-2 range--12.4 Atk, 130.8 hit, 8.05 AS, 28.5 avo--2.6 DEF, 6.7 RES

Thani: 1-2 range--17.4 Atk, 130.8 hit, 8.05 AS, 28.5 avo--2.6 DEF, 6.7 RES

Nolan

Lv. 10 Fighter

HP: 29.6

Steel Axe: 1 range--23.45 Atk, 116 hit, 8.05 AS, 23.7 avo--9.35 DEF, 3.4 RES

Hand Axe: 1-2 range--21.45 Atk, 111 hit, 10.6 AS, 28.8 avo--9.35 DEF, 3.4 RES

(I'm going to skip Laura, since the only thing that Leonardo can compare with her is durability.)

Sothe (Since the only other characters that have a critical rate {Besides Micky's 1%} are Eddie and Illyana, I'm going to ignore that chance for everyone besides Sothe, Edward and Illyana. {If you can't read in between the lines, that means that I'm too lazy to insert them.})

Lv. 1 Rogue

HP: 35

Bronze Dagger: 1 range--20 Atk, 140 hit, 20 AS, 55 avo--14 DEF, 9 RES

Kard: 1 range--22 Atk, 125 hit, 20 AS, 10 crit, 55 avo--14 DEF, 9 RES

Illyana

Lv. 12 Thunder Mage

HP: 22

Thunder: 1-2 range--15 Atk, 110 hit, 13 AS, 5 crit, 32 avo--3 DEF, 9 RES

Elthunder: 1-2 range--17 Atk, 105 hit, 13 AS, 10 crit, 32 avo--3 DEF, 9 RES

Aran

Lv. 7 Soldier

HP: 24

Iron Lance: 1 range--17 Atk, 115 hit, 10 AS, 26 avo--11 DEF, 2 RES

Javelin: 1-2 range--17 Atk, 95 hit, 9 AS, 24 avo--11 DEF, 2 RES

As shown, Leonardo is doing about as well as anybody not named Sothe at this point in hit by hit analysis. Leo and Micaiah are your only reliable ranged fighters at this point, so chip damage will continue to let Leo gain EXP. For one on one comparison, the physical units will mostly have to eat up a counter whenver they attack, which is a point in Leo's favor. Micky does very light damage (No pun intended), and Illyana's hit rate is unreliable, so [player] will mainly be relying on Leo to do sufficient chip damage so your physical units don't have to eat up another counterattack. So Leonardo is keeping up with the rest of your team, EXP-wise. And to deal with some more of your flawed logic:

Even Micaiah is doing better than him because she hits res,except against the lvl 3's.

And this is helping you... how? The difference is, at max, +5 DEF. Leo's doing slightly better.

And so because Leo has 9.5 chapters of gaining EXP (1-E counts as 1.5 chapters of EXP because of the sheer amount of EXP these enemies give), Leo should be around level 17/0. A level 17/1 Sniper Leonardo (Master Seal) isn't really that inviable, so Leonardo could very well be level 17/15 by the time P4 comes around. Leonardo could be in Ike's army for Ledge utility, very useful when you think about it. And when 3-6 comes, Lughnasadh gives Leo +3 AS and +6 dodge, which is very good, considering how much someone liek Rolf is doubling by P4. Or, Leo could be in Tibarn's army for the Swamp chapter. So...

Leo could be fighting Ashera at level ~17/20/5. Nice try, though.

Now, on to Rolf.

Comparing Rolf to some units in the GMs:

Rolf

Lv. --/1 Sniper

HP: 32

Killer Bow: 2 range--25 Atk, 133 hit, 19 AS, 52 Avo, 50 crit--13 DEF, 9 RES

Ike

Lv. --/11 Hero

HP: 44

Iron Sword: 1 range--30 Atk, 160 hit, 23 AS, 60 Avo, 14 crit--21 DEF, 7 RES

(I could compare with Ike's Ettard, but then the comparison is so pointless, it's a waste of time.)

Mia

Lv. --/7 Swordmaster

HP: 34

Wo Dao: 1 range--24 Atk, 160 hit, 28 AS, 74 Avo, 33 crit--13 DEF, 8 RES

Rhys

Lv. --/3 Bishop

HP: 27

Ellight: 1-2 range--28 Atk, 148 hit, 14 AS, 49 Avo, 8 crit--7 DEF, 24 RES

Soren

Lv. --/5 Wind Sage

HP: 28

Elwind: 1-2 range--29 Atk, 143 hit, 18 AS, 47 Avo, 10.5 crit--9 DEF, 21 RES

Now, at this point, Rolf is sucking. RHYS of all people has more friggin Atk than Rolf, which makes him ~not so great. To quote and counter:

Of course you might say "but Rofl only has 36% crit chance lolz",of course we need to factor in bond supports,whick Rolf has plenty of,he has his brothers (easily accessable since Boyd isn't anywhere close to rushing enemies and Oscar has Canto)and Shinon,who is also a bow unit and will be behind with Rolf.

More flawed logic. Boyd is a front-liner, so he will be advancing and killing opponents. Rofl is a backliner, doing chip damage to enemies. Rofl might have extra crit because of the bond, but more often than not, Boyd will be killing units on one side of the passage, and Rolf will be doing chip damage on the other side, given the power of Boyd and the other GMs. Because of that, the Boyd bond isn't doing much good. As for the Oscar bond, Oscar won't Canto back to the group just so some unit that only has Player Phase utility can have 15 friggin extra crit. (Maybe less.) So, the only viable bond is Shinon.

although he is less exposed than Leo was because the GM's are pretty durable,however,he plays a good support role.

The same logic could be applied to Leo in the DB, because Nolan, Zihark and.or Eddie can help protect him, because, frankly the GMs have more useful things to do besides protecting Rofl, too.

Lets go back to Rolf now,at chapter 3-7.

Rolf(Silencer) lvl --/7 (B Shinon)

Hp 37,Mt 37,AS 22,Hit 166,Avo 69,Crit 26,Def 17,and Res 14

And... why is he wielding the Silencer? A Killer Bow could do more good for him using your own numbers, since that gives him a shiny 54 base crit rate (Or more, since I don't feel like doing the math) without bonds or supports. Also, level 7? W/o favoritism, Rofl is lucky to have a level 5, considering that 50% of the GMs are one rounding most everything anyway.

Also a fun fact,Rolf one shots Leonardo if they fight here.

Fun Fact: Rolf and Leonardo are roughly equal by this point, if [player] is using him appropriately. Which means that a level 17/3 Sniper Leonardo is about equal to a --/5 Sniper Rofl, which is phail.

If this continues, Leo is going to be better than Rofl 7 out of 10 times, so Leo>Rofl.

Your turn.

EDIT: Fix'd typos.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Camtech075

[Ether]

( I actually don't know how to quote certain parts of the post so you'll have to work with me here)

To start,no,Leo can't have that Dracoshield,it goes to a frontliner,because they need to take hits,Also,your data is off,Micaiah is 2 rounded,not 1 rounded,and Edward is 4 rounded except against the level 5's,also,if he takes that Dracoshield(which is a better plan than giving it to Leo),he is now 5 rounded(4 rounded by the lvl 5's).

Also,Micaiah is doing better chip damage,as they Tie against the lvl 4's,Leo does more on the lvl 3's,but Micaiah hits the lvl 5's and the boss harder due to hitting res,and sure,Leo could double the lvl 4's if he gains speed,but he is unlikely to level in this chapter anyway,and he only has a 35% speed growth,while Micaiah is almost guaranteed to increase her damage output with her monstrous magic growth.

Also,Ilyana isn't doing that bad,according to your stats,she hits Res,so she is doing about 4-5 more damage per hit than Leo(if he uses his steel bow,with Iron,she is doubling his damage per hit,and she still has +3 AS(+5 if he has Steel),and all at the cost of 7 hit,while she still has hit rates in the 70's and 80's)

Also,Leo is nowhere near doubling,the slowest enemies here have 8 AS,and with 1 speed growth for Ilyana(only 30% chance,but it's just as good as your prediction for Leo)she starts doubling some more loldiers and fighters,and is guaranteed to double all armors,making her a great armor killer,and those guys are a real pain for most people except Micaiah.

Next point,If Leo can gain 13 levels in 9.5 chapters,why can't Rolf gain 6 levels in 6 chapters?Leo isn't doing all that great,certainly not atleast 1.5 times better than Rolf,and Rolf has access to much more enemies,and is a low level,so he grows quickly.

Also,Boyd isn't rushing because he isn't so durable at this point,being 3 rounded as a front liner isn't so great,and the same can be said for quite a few people,sure Ike and Titania could rush ahead and kill everything,but the GM's aren't invincible,they are luring enemies as well,and would like it if Rolf could do some chip damage for them.Oscar also isn't charging yet,because he doesn't have an Ike support yet,and Cantoing into Rolf's range isn't hurtinh him because of his great move,he can reach enemies again the next turn,without leaving himself exposed.Also,since when are the GM's one rounding?Sure,Ike and Titania can kill things easy,sometimes Shinon,but the other GM's mostly aren't doubling(except Mia,who doesn't have enough Might to kill),while Rolf having a good chance to 2 round with a killer bow puts him on,or at times,above average on his team.

Also,Rolf's durability isn't as much of an issue because A.It's better than Leo's,and B.The GM's are more capable than the Dawn Brigade,they have more members,and their mere presence clogs holes that the DB doesn't have the manpower to block,so Leo is getting hit more.

Also,I gave Rolf the silencer because it puts him on,or above par with the rest of his team(2 rounding),without having to rely on criticals,although he still has a nice chance at criticalling anyway,all of this while not really hurting the team in any way,sure,it costs a bit of money,but Rolf's greatly increased performance is worth the investment,since you just got blossom(which you can sell since decreased exp in hard mode is bad) and several gems and other sellable trinkets.

Now lets go to 3-6,with Leo at 17/1

Leonardo(Lughnasadh) Lvl 17/1(B Edward)

Hp 27,Mt 31,AS 20,Hit 164,Avo 56,and Def 12

So,he's still bad,and still being one rounded by level 16 and 17 tigers,of which there are 21 at the start of the map,not counting reinforcements,which will bring more of them,and yes,he can now just double the low level tigers,but in comparison,there are only 5 of them,and he is still only 3 rounding them,so his allies will still eat a counterattack,making his input rather useless to the team.

Let's compare him to Edward,shall we?(As I stated earlier,Edward took that Dracoshield for his durability)

Edward(Caladbolg) Lvl 20/1(B Leonardo)

HP 32,Mt 34,AS 21,Hit 155,Avo 66,and Def 16.

Now,Edward has been called the worst unit on his team,and he is doing better than Leo,wow Leo,nice job...

Anyway,even the strongest cats 3 round Edward(they 2 round Leo,except the ones with A strike level,of which there are only about 3 in the level)and Edward is 2 rounded by the tigers,at 70% display hit,but with Leo nearby(support partners)

they are more likely to attack him anyway,since everyone is exposed here.With one speed growth,Edward even doubles reliably,on the tigers anyway.Even without it,Edward doubles all non-lvl 17 Tigers,and is 2 rounding himself,not bad Edward,not bad.The other members of his team outclass Leo even more,and because his Chip damage is pretty useless on it's own(both he and Micaiah need to attack the same enemy to bring it in one shotting range for a frontliner,unless they are wielding a brave weapon).

To give Leo another kick in the groin,our buddy Rolf is on par with his team now,and will continue to grow,while Leo only continues to fall behind on a team where no one is that good anyway.

You're move buddy.

[CT075]

( I actually don't know how to quote certain parts of the post so you'll have to work with me here)

You copy and paste whatever content you want onto your post, and put {quote}[content]{/quote}. Except that the {} is replaced by [].

To start,no,Leo can't have that Dracoshield,it goes to a frontliner,because they need to take hits,Also,your data is off,Micaiah is 2 rounded,not 1 rounded,and Edward is 4 rounded except against the level 5's,also,if he takes that Dracoshield(which is a better plan than giving it to Leo),he is now 5 rounded(4 rounded by the lvl 5's).

Except that, according to you, Eddie is phail. So why would he be chugging a Dracoshield? Nolan has enough HP to handle the hits (as well as a potential EarthxEarth support with Zihark or Volug) and Aran (the guy with the 70% DEF growth) shouldn't need it (unless [player] has been really screwed. In which case, PEMN). Volug and Zihark have an Avo+ affinity, and Jill isn't a frontliner (yet. At this point, Jill is just a hit and runner). That just about nullifies your point. As for backliners, Micaiah isn't really going to get hit is she? (Sothe+Guard) "But Micaiah needs a different support than Sothe!" Um... who, exactly does she need a support with, besides Sothe? This is HM, so SotheXMicaiah's Insta-A (Sorry for the lame joke...) would only need to be sacrificed for an Earth support. In which case the extra dodge will give her another shot at survival. For Illyana, she joins the GMs anyway, so what's the point relying on her in the DB chapters? Therefore, the DEF boost goes to Leonardo.

Also,Micaiah is doing better chip damage,as they Tie against the lvl 4's,Leo does more on the lvl 3's,but Micaiah hits the lvl 5's and the boss harder due to hitting res,and sure,Leo could double the lvl 4's if he gains speed,but he is unlikely to level in this chapter anyway,and he only has a 35% speed growth,while Micaiah is almost guaranteed to increase her damage output with her monstrous magic growth.

You forget that there is a small difference between DEF and RES at this point anyway, so this difference isn't going to do you much good. And, as a fun fact, Micaiah's extra chip damage isn't doing much more for you unless you really enjoy having to rescue her. (lol durability) Leonardo is doing very well as an Archer slayer (granted, they 3 shot him and he three shots them), and doesn't get one rounded by bosses. Illyana has even less of a chance to gain speed on a level up than Leo does, so she's not really doubling any more than him. Given the fact that the DB needs help killing enemies, Leonardo fills up a nice support role.

Next point,If Leo can gain 13 levels in 9.5 chapters,why can't Rolf gain 6 levels in 6 chapters?Leo isn't doing all that great,certainly not atleast 1.5 times better than Rolf,and Rolf has access to much more enemies,and is a low level,so he grows quickly.

Now, Rolf on the other hand... He's not really helping the GMs kill things. Boyd is killing things as they attack him on the west side, and Rolf is shooting things in the east. "But Rolf could be on the west, too!" Yeah... but Boyd is powerful enough that he's killing things without Rolf's help. As is everyone else. So Rolf is unnessicary. And as another judo technique (It's a kick in the groin, so I can... Oh, screw that =) ) Rolf is doing less damage than RHYS! Unless he criticals, Rhys, for Pete's sake, is doing better than him. Now you're going to say, "But with bonds, Rofl has 61% crit!" Oscar isn't going to be within range of Rofl all the time, so screw that. Boyd isn't really going to always hang around in the frontlines where Rofl can actually shoot something like that, since, as you said, he's not that durable. Also, Rofl has a massive inferior complex to Shinon, (Well, so does Leo, but at least he gets a Prf, as well as being on a different team) so [player] just might dump him. Leonardo is needed on the DB, since he's the only reliable ranged fighter besides Micaiah, and I already covered that. And, exposed to more enemies? WTF? There are more enemies to kill, granted, but if he is to reach them in time to kill them b4 Ike and Titania and Boyd can, he needs to expose himself, which will more than likely get him killed.

while Rolf having a good chance to 2 round with a killer bow puts him on,or at times,above average on his team.

I already covered most of this. He has a decent chance to 3 round, I'll give you that. But why are the GM's just sitting around letting Moss-head kill everything? Even if Moss-head crits (not too unlikely, but w/e) then he'll either run away to lick his wounds next turn or attack your frontliner.

but the GM's aren't invincible

Also,Rolf's durability isn't as much of an issue because A.It's better than Leo's,and B.The GM's are more capable than the Dawn Brigade,they have more members,and their mere presence clogs holes that the DB doesn't have the manpower to block,so Leo is getting hit more.

That's a contradiction. The DB maps generally have less chokepoints for the DB to hold, so Leonardo can easily find a place to sit his butt and shoot. And, although they have less manpower, there's Nolan, Zihark, Jill (By P3, if she's been used, she should be more than competant in physical prowess) and Tauroneo to help wall. Pulling some random levels from my butt magic hat:

Leonardo (B Volug) (I don't see why not... Micky has Sothe, and Nolan and Zihark have each other. According to you, Edward isn't being used, so...)

18/15 Sniper

HP: 35.8

Lughnasadh: 2 range--37.2 Atk, 25.8 AS, 184.2 Hit, Avo 99.8, crit 20--DEF 16.8, RES 16

Rofl (B Shinon)

--/17 Sniper (By your own, calcs, Rolf will be a higher level than Leo, so... And, by my arguments, Rofl will never be that much higher than Leo. i.e. I think that a 2 level difference is appropriate.)

HP: 45

Silencer: 2 range--43 Atk, 25.75 AS, 178 Hit, Avo 87.3, crit 18.6--DEF 18.6, RES 12.2

Good job, Rofl. You might actually get something here. Leo has lower Atk, but with the extra 1.4 crit Leo has, he will crit more than Rofl. Leo is beating Rolf in Hit, Avoid, and AS, too. So, a unit that is about 4 levels lower than Rolf is doing better that Rolf. Nice.

All things considered, Leonardo is doing well in a team that is already pretty good, and Rofl is doing sub-par in a team of spectacular units. Really, is this even a contest?

Leonardo>Moss-head

I shall defeat you with the great Wall of Text!!!

EDIT: Damn typos.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Camtech075

[Ether]

Except that, according to you, Eddie is phail. So why would he be chugging a Dracoshield? Nolan has enough HP to handle the hits (as well as a potential EarthxEarth support with Zihark or Volug) and Aran (the guy with the 70% DEF growth) shouldn't need it (unless [player] has been really screwed. In which case, PEMN). Volug and Zihark have an Avo+ affinity, and Jill isn't a frontliner (yet. At this point, Jill is just a hit and runner). That just about nullifies your point. As for backliners, Micaiah isn't really going to get hit is she? (Sothe+Guard) "But Micaiah needs a different support than Sothe!" Um... who, exactly does she need a support with, besides Sothe? This is HM, so SotheXMicaiah's Insta-A (Sorry for the lame joke...) would only need to be sacrificed for an Earth support. In which case the extra dodge will give her another shot at survival. For Illyana, she joins the GMs anyway, so what's the point relying on her in the DB chapters? Therefore, the DEF boost goes to Leonardo.

Edward is not very good in Hard Mode,true,but he does need to survive so you don't lose,and that Dracoshield helps him,of course,I also showed that even Nolan is getting hit pretty hard in part 3,and also gets priority for that Dracoshield over Leonardo,anyone who frontlines has a priority for it because they NEED to take hits,while Leo is doing everything he can not to,and is getting hit less often than others,so he would like the Dracoshield,but is probably the last person on the team to have access to it.Also,contrary to most,I would indeed leave her with the Sothe support,because guard makes her more durable than Leonardo(you kinda walked into that one,srry XD)

You forget that there is a small difference between DEF and RES at this point anyway, so this difference isn't going to do you much good.

ORLY?Throughout all of part 1,there is on average a 5 point difference between def and res,not to mention neither of them double much of anything,and once Micaiah gets Thani,she almost always has more Might than him,she is doing significantly more damage than him,if she does ~7 more damage per chip,someone like Nolan or Aran can attack that same enemy without being countered,while if Leo had attacked it,they would take damage,so Micaiah's large damage lead actually improves the durability of the entire team,not to mention she baits enemies which then have to attack Sothe instead,lowering the opponent's presence during enemy phase.

Now, Rolf on the other hand... He's not really helping the GMs kill things. Boyd is killing things as they attack him on the west side, and Rolf is shooting things in the east. "But Rolf could be on the west, too!" Yeah... but Boyd is powerful enough that he's killing things without Rolf's help. As is everyone else. So Rolf is unnessicary. And as another judo technique (It's a kick in the groin, so I can... Oh, screw that =) ) Rolf is doing less damage than RHYS! Unless he criticals, Rhys, for Pete's sake, is doing better than him. Now you're going to say, "But with bonds, Rofl has 61% crit!" Oscar isn't going to be within range of Rofl all the time, so screw that. Boyd isn't really going to always hang around in the frontlines where Rofl can actually shoot something like that, since, as you said, he's not that durable. Also, Rofl has a massive inferior complex to Shinon, (Well, so does Leo, but at least he gets a Prf, as well as being on a different team) so [player] just might dump him. Leonardo is needed on the DB, since he's the only reliable ranged fighter besides Micaiah, and I already covered that. And, exposed to more enemies? WTF? There are more enemies to kill, granted, but if he is to reach them in time to kill them b4 Ike and Titania and Boyd can, he needs to expose himself, which will more than likely get him killed.

As I said before,most of the GM's can't one round for a while,and Rolf plays a good support role,also,Rolf moves up and attacks for chip damage first,and then the enemy is gang-raped,and because the GM's have so much field presence,they cover up holes simply by existing,not to mention,Rhys isn't attacking,he is healing,so that only leaves Rolf and Soren for chip damage (since Shinon is probably one rounding most of what he attacks,he is one of the few people to do so),and although Soren does it better,he is even less durable than Rolf is,and the GM's would like more than one support shooter.

while Rolf having a good chance to 2 round with a killer bow puts him on,or at times,above average on his team.

I already covered most of this. He has a decent chance to 3 round, I'll give you that. But why are the GM's just sitting around letting Moss-head kill everything? Even if Moss-head crits (not too unlikely, but w/e) then he'll either run away to lick his wounds next turn or attack your frontliner.

Rolf isn't killing everything,but with his very good chance to critical,he is bringing enemies into one shotting range,meaning your less durable units like Boyd or Mia don't need to eat a counter attack,everytime Rolf crit's he is essentially increasing the durability of another member for a turn.

That's a contradiction. The DB maps generally have less chokepoints for the DB to hold, so Leonardo can easily find a place to sit his butt and shoot. And, although they have less manpower, there's Nolan, Zihark, Jill (By P3, if she's been used, she should be more than competant in physical prowess) and Tauroneo to help wall.

The GM's aren't invincible yes,but they are more durable then the DB,and as I pointed out earlier,Leo is heavily exposed at times,especially against the Laguz,and cannot take a hit when he is exposed,while as I said,Rolf is being 4 rounded or so about halfway through part 3.

Leonardo (B Volug) (I don't see why not... Micky has Sothe, and Nolan and Zihark have each other. According to you, Edward isn't being used, so...)

18/15 Sniper

HP: 35.8

Lughnasadh: 2 range--37.2 Atk, 25.8 AS, 184.2 Hit, Avo 99.8, crit 20--DEF 16.8, RES 16

Rofl (B Shinon)

--/17 Sniper (By your own, calcs, Rolf will be a higher level than Leo, so... And, by my arguments, Rofl will never be that much higher than Leo. i.e. I think that a 2 level difference is appropriate.)

HP: 45

Silencer: 2 range--43 Atk, 25.75 AS, 178 Hit, Avo 87.3, crit 18.6--DEF 18.6, RES 12.2

First of all,why does Leo gat an Earth support,Volug would like even more avoid then he is already getting to increase his durability,and would rather support Jill or Aran for their Thunder affinity,plus Jill has similar move,while Leo will most likely never be in support range.Sorry Leonardo,i'll be nice though,and give him an A Aran,unless he'd rather support Laura?Also,Rolf has A Shinon by now.

BTW,I think your levels are off again,Rolf has 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11,and 3-E to gain levels,while Leo has 3-6(where he cannot survive at all,maybe he isn't even fielded here),3-12,and 3-13.Rolf has almost twice as many maps to fight on,as well as more enemies since the DB has a kill cap in their's(or a turn cap in 3-13,where Leo is getting owned by the 3-13 archer anyway).So Leo is not going to gain 14 levels while Rolf gains 10,here's a new comparison for ya' with Leo gaining 9 levels,since 3 per map sounds fair,if not too many.

Leonardo(Lughnasadh) lvl 17/10(A Aran)

HP 32,Mt 36,AS 24,Crit 28,Hit 172,Avo 76,Def 17,and Res 18

VS.

Rolf(Silencer) lvl --/17/1(A Shinon)

HP 49,MT 45,AS 28,Crit 34,Hit 185,Avo 90,Def 23,and Res 18

Wow Leo,you just got Raped,Rolf has +17 HP,+9 Mt,+4 AS,+6 Crit,+13 Hit,+14 Avoid,+6 Def,and Equal Res,and now that we are into part 4 and Rolf and Leo may be competing side by side,ouch,Leo may not even make Marksman by endgame unless he promotes early,and even then,Rolf's leads are so huge it may not even matter,the only chance Leo has is if Rolf doesn't get the double bow,but even then,Rolf can take a forged Silver bow or a Silencer and outdo Leo with his Lughnasadh,even if Shinon takes the double bow.Leo won't get it because he has his Lughnasadh and him using the double Bow instead hurts the team because other Marksmen want it.

Also,just throwing it out their,Rolf can get transfer bonuses if Str,Skl and Spd,while Leo cannot.

Well,that's my argument,judges,Judge away,and to my opponent,Good luck,I had fun,and I hope you did to.

[Mekkah]

Voting Ether. He (or she, iono) used more evidence, and didn't get caught up in the whole "purpose" deal.

I was going to vykanize this, then got bored, so here's just some criticism for the first few posts:

Camtech's first post:

Leo is very inferior to Shinon, as is Rolf. Leo is also lacking defnsively and offensively when he joins. But that's okay, since all of the DB (barring Zihark, Nolan and Sothe) start out slowly (bad) and get better with training. Rolf, however, starts out sub-par and ends right on par. So Leonardo takes more effort, but Rolf reaps less rewards at the end. Leo>Rolf.

I see no statistical evidence here, at all.

By 4-E-4, Leonardo is beating Rolf with his higher RES, SKL, and LCK. Really, those are the important stats at Endgame. So Leo still beats Rolf.

I'm fine with just stating stat leads (though you should show by how much), but just saying "those stats are important in endgame" and leaving it at that?

Neither of them have an affinity worth leaping for, but Leo's +.5 ATK and +.5 DEF is better than Rolf's +2.5 Acc and Avo. The accuracy is lol, and if a unit wants an avoid boost, they go for an Earth affinity. The same could be said for Leo's boosts, too, except that both of those boosts are useful, and Water is the only affinity that includes both of said boosts. So a Leo support>a Rolf support.

This is fine, except you just dissed yourself by saying accuracy (hit) doesn't matter now, when it did for endgame (well, you said Skl mattered there).

I'm cool with short openers, but not if they say nothing at all.

Now, for Ether's first post, you did a good job of making Leonardo look pretty shitty, but you forgot to show how he is relatively bad compared to Micky, Nolan, Edward, etc.

So by the end of Part one,Leo will probably be somewhere around lvl 16,considering he only has player phase offense,and can;t ever be exposed,he is probably lower,but I'll be nice.

This is generally a good idea: be generous (or pretend to be).

Then comes some good lovin' for Rolf's performance, but once again same error: you have to show he is doing relatively good compared to other Greil Mercs.

Then a 3-6 comparison, where you did compare Leonardo to someone (though only one person, Nolan), so that's good.

[Ether]

Thanks for the advice Mekkah.

[CT075]

Oh dear, did I really get owned that badly?

...

I guess I did, didn't I?

I really need to work on my debating technique.

[riariadne]

My vote(though it doesn't count) is for Ether because, like Mekkah said, he had much better evidence. But Cametch didn't be too badly either.