Efficiency Tier List?

[Quasar]

Now I know what reinforcements you mean, I had forgotten about them.

What utility? Merchant? Rather pointless utility. If you don't keep your guys well equipped before battle, then restart and do it, why bother sending out a defenseless easily killed unit to do something you should be doing before the battle even starts anyways?

You can't access the shop in preparation screen. If you need money you can bring Merlinus and just sell everything you need to sell, or trade your used weapons for brand new ones after Silver Card(pretty much what cheetah7071

already said). This is a lot better than starting out a chapter and lagging behind everyone else doing nothing until it's finished . You can also kill him with leisure, he does respawn. Unlike Wendy. Remember that every chapter you take Wendy to takes a unit spot from another one, and the utility gained by bringing Wendy is [Wendy's utility - Lost utility from unused good unit] and the result will always be negative after Ch 8. The bottom line is that even if Wendy became a decent unit later on, which she doesn't, which will result in god-awful amount of negative utility.

Dorothy can also be actually useful in a segment of the game, and help someone else be helpful during that segment, that being Sacae, and that guy being Saul.

Dorothy is positive utility for chapter six and negative utility for being horrible after said chapter. Helping Saul who quite frankly doesn't want help as a healer doesn't put her to positive. The reasoning is the same. Even if she was usable in Sacae you need to put up with using her at the beginning.

Edit: Corrected things, apparently I'm having trouble reading and writing today.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Quasar

[grandjackal]

You can't access the shop in preparation screen. If you need money you can bring Merlinus and just sell everything you need to sell, or trade your used weapons for brand new ones after Silver Card(pretty much what cheetah7071

already said). This is a lot better than starting out a chapter and lagging behind everyone else doing nothing until it's finished . You can also kill him with leisure, he does respawn. Unlike Wendy. Remember that every chapter you take Wendy to takes a unit spot from another one, and the utility gained by bringing Wendy is [Wendy's utility - Lost utility from unused good unit] and the result will always be negative after Ch 8. The bottom line is that even if Wendy became a decent unit later on, which she doesn't, which will result in god-awful amount of negative utility.

...I didn't even think about the shopping aspects...;;>>

Dorothy is positive utility for chapter six and negative utility for being horrible after said chapter. Helping Saul who quite frankly doesn't want help as a healer doesn't put her to positive. The reasoning is the same. Even if she was usable in Sacae you need to put up with using her at the beginning.

To clear it up, she gives Saul with a B the actual durability to actually be able to walk around Sacae without being bitchslapped, and can hit back with his magic with actual accuracy, a problem for damn near everyone here.

Otherwise, point taken anyways.

[Quasar]

Hold on, I have another question about the Ch 8 scenario. The reinforcements are a Soldier, an Archer and a Merc per turn, right? To nitpick you can't shoot the guy behind the clog archer, but you can shoot over the walls for the Mercs and Soldiers. Eventually when enough 1 range has been killed the Archers can retaliate. Will it be a problem? I have no idea how much hurt they were packing. A while ago I didn't even remember they existed.

Edit: Just noticed the post with the mages. I do agree that Lilina is somewhat underrated but I think that Lugh is slightly underappreciated too. This is my gut speaking. I have nothing to back it up with, maybe later.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Quasar

[cheetah7071]

Thinking about it, I could see Merlinus top of Kenny G tier. Superior shopping skills are better than whatever the people below there have.

[grandjackal]

Hold on, I have another question about the Ch 8 scenario. The reinforcements are a Soldier, an Archer and a Merc per turn, right? To nitpick you can't shoot the guy behind the clog archer, but you can shoot over the walls for the Mercs and Soldiers. Eventually when enough 1 range has been killed the Archers can retaliate. Will it be a problem? I have no idea how much hurt they were packing. A while ago I didn't even remember they existed.

There's that too, but now ask yourself. How problematic is having one ranged attack hit one unit?

Thinking about it, I could see Merlinus top of Kenny G tier. Superior shopping skills are better than whatever the people below there have.

Indeed. Will do.

[Quasar]

There's that too, but now ask yourself. How problematic is having one ranged attack hit one unit?

Not much, unless said unit kills the archer and receives a second hit or cannot survive a single one (Lilina?)

[grandjackal]

Not much, unless said unit kills the archer and receives a second hit or cannot survive a single one (Lilina?)

Ok, some might need rescuing, but wtf else are Barth and Wendy doing?

[Quasar]

I recall Barth having somewhat decent durability for this chapter, he could be the guy blocking (blocker might get some arrows too) or helping with the swarm of enemies south. Or rescuing people I guess, it's not like he's really needed. That's actually the best use for Wendy I've heard.

I currently have no further questions regarding this matter.

[grandjackal]

Right then.

Regardless, could you all at least see Lillina moving up? Perhaps above Fa or possibly Ward?

[Florete]

Wait...you're going to seriously tier Merlinus? Yeah, he has use on the field of course, but how can you assign value to what he does? If you wanted, you could make a case for him in any tier by explaining how "useful" what he does is in comparison to units. I could say he's Upper Mid because of pro shopping skillz, or I could say he's low because shopping isn't that useful, and it would end up being an unending battle because you can't really assign a value to what he does.

[grandjackal]

Wait...you're going to seriously tier Merlinus? Yeah, he has use on the field of course, but how can you assign value to what he does? If you wanted, you could make a case for him in any tier by explaining how "useful" what he does is in comparison to units. I could say he's Upper Mid because of pro shopping skillz, or I could say he's low because shopping isn't that useful, and it would end up being an unending battle because you can't really assign a value to what he does.

Merlinus is defenseless and a waste of a slot, but he can shop when no one else can. While still on the field, someone can take a newly bought thing and transport it to others.

Walt is defenseless and a waste of a slot, but he...can fight...sorta...not really.

[cheetah7071]

Wait...you're going to seriously tier Merlinus? Yeah, he has use on the field of course, but how can you assign value to what he does? If you wanted, you could make a case for him in any tier by explaining how "useful" what he does is in comparison to units. I could say he's Upper Mid because of pro shopping skillz, or I could say he's low because shopping isn't that useful, and it would end up being an unending battle because you can't really assign a value to what he does.

Dancers are the exact same way. If you can tier dancers, you can tier Merlinus.

Besides, the entire point of tier lists is to compare the usefulness of units. If people make strong enough arguments for upper mid, then guess what? He belongs in upper mid. If the people arguing him down win, then he belongs down low.

[grandjackal]

So...anyone disagree with Lillina in lower mid somewhere?

[Florete]

Problem is, Merlinus is the one character you can't really say makes any chapter faster, or helps us beat the game, or the opposite. He's the only one incapable of enemy contact (besides Lalum/Elphin, but what they do might as well be considered fighting at times), he has no support options, no promotion, etc. If I want to field a shopping unit, I'll take a Cavalier/Paladin I'm not using because they have 2 more move and Canto. Hell, I may even have them supporting someone.

Think about it. We don't tier him in FE7, despite the fact that he has support options, levels up, and even promotes. I'm pretty sure Eirika/Ephraim don't get points for holding our Convoy. Why should we tier this guy? It'll create pointless arguments based on utility that can't truly be assigned any specific value.

But if you seriously have to tier him, put him at the top of Low mid or bottom of Upper Mid. He's arguably neutral, so a perfectly average spot on the list is where he'd go.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[cheetah7071]

Problem is, Merlinus is the one character you can't really say makes any chapter faster, or helps us beat the game, or the opposite. He's the only one incapable of enemy contact (besides Lalum/Elphin, but what they do might as well be considered fighting at times), he has no support options, no promotion, etc. If I want to field a shopping unit, I'll take a Cavalier/Paladin I'm not using because they have 2 more move and Canto. Hell, I may even have them supporting someone.

Think about it. We don't tier him in FE7, despite the fact that he has support options, levels up, and even promotes. I'm pretty sure Eirika/Ephraim don't get points for holding our Convoy. Why should we tier this guy? It'll create pointless arguments based on utility that can't truly be assigned any specific value.

But if you seriously have to tier him, put him at the top of Low mid or bottom of Upper Mid. He's arguably neutral, so a perfectly average spot on the list is where he'd go.

Merlinus is the best shopper because he can sell things from the supply without eating up inventory space, and can redistribute weapons bought at the shop on the other side of the map.

Merlinus in FE7 probably ought to be tiered. He'd be pretty high, I'd imagine.

Eirika/Ephraim should get points for convoy access. I don't see why they shouldn't.

Top of Kenny G was a kneejerk tier position. I'm personally of the opinion that he doesn't belong much higher--while he doesn't slow your team down by requiring walls to protect him, he does slow them down by not allowing you to field another combat unit.

So...anyone disagree with Lillina in lower mid somewhere?

No. I'm as big a Lilina fan as the next person, but I wouldn't touch her without an angelic robe and at least one speedwing.

[Florete]

Merlinus is the best shopper because he can sell things from the supply without eating up inventory space, and can redistribute weapons bought at the shop on the other side of the map.

Find me a place where we actually need that extra space over a normal unit (or two, we could have room) and I'll drop it. And really, how is this actually helping us beat a map any faster than an empty slot or a filler unit? It's most likely our units will already be properly equipped, and if not, that's what trading is for.

Top of Kenny G was a kneejerk tier position. I'm personally of the opinion that he doesn't belong much higher--while he doesn't slow your team down by requiring walls to protect him, he does slow them down by not allowing you to field another combat unit.

I'd say he could be higher than those with any kind of negative utility, since he wouldn't really acquire any himself. Therefore, Middle of the list.

[cheetah7071]

Find me a place where we actually need that extra space over a normal unit (or two, we could have room) and I'll drop it. And really, how is this actually helping us beat a map any faster than an empty slot or a filler unit? It's most likely our units will already be properly equipped, and if not, that's what trading is for.

Hence, low on the list.

I'd say he could be higher than those with any kind of negative utility, since he wouldn't really acquire any himself. Therefore, Middle of the list.

He does have negative utility, because he deprives you of combat. Dancers and healers have this negative utility too, but more than make up for it. Merlinus...doesn't.

[grandjackal]

No. I'm as big a Lilina fan as the next person, but I wouldn't touch her without an angelic robe and at least one speedwing.

With the treasure trap strat, and giving her 6 kills (and with her leveling speed...), she can drastically reduce her chances of getting OHKOd, a major problem of hers? Then factor in she's an excellent C for Roy, and a perfectly goof friend for OJ and Gonzales?

Hell, by the bridge, most of her problems have vanished.

[cheetah7071]

With the treasure trap strat, and giving her 6 kills (and with her leveling speed...), she can drastically reduce her chances of getting OHKOd, a major problem of hers? Then factor in she's an excellent C for Roy, and a perfectly goof friend for OJ and Gonzales?

Hell, by the bridge, most of her problems have vanished.

I know it's easy to baby Lilina, I do it all the time. I have her level caught up by chapter 9 usually. Babying her builds up massive negative utility though.

Lets say level 13 or so. 21 hp, 3 defense. OHKOed by steel axes and occasionally if the enemy gets good HM bonuses, hand axes. At least she's not being doubled, but OHKOs are still pretty terrible. So more babying, even now that she's caught up in levels.

Not to mention that she never doubles. Hitting hard once < hitting slightly less hard twice.

[Florete]

He does have negative utility, because he deprives you of combat. Dancers and healers have this negative utility too, but more than make up for it. Merlinus...doesn't.

It could be argued he's > your 12th best combat unit. Hence why I'm still of the opinion he's too difficult to accurately tier.

[cheetah7071]

It could be argued he's > your 12th best combat unit. Hence why I'm still of the opinion he's too difficult to accurately tier.

Make that argument then. Healers and dancers are also difficult to accurately tier, yet we tier them. Why should Merlinus be any different?

[Quasar]

FE7 Merlinus is an entirely different thing and I don't think he fits in with the units at all there. I find him qualifying for a unit in FE6 however.

Edit: You don't need Merlinus to shop for you in every chapter, I'd only pull him out if I wanted to sell like ten items or more. If you're just buying there's no decent reason to have him waste combat power. Sure shopping with someone else and then getting them off Merlinus somewhere else is nifty but hardly worth anything compared to combat ability for you'll rarely, if ever, be so needy for weapons you'd need them right away to the other side of the map.

As for Lilina I believe a comparison to someone above her would be the best way to get this solved seeing how she has a lot of issues. I'd go for Hugh. I don't mind doing it myself but it'll have to wait for a bit.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Quasar

[Florete]

Make that argument then. Healers and dancers are also difficult to accurately tier, yet we tier them. Why should Merlinus be any different?

Okay. For your given situation, Merlinus > 12th best combat unit. Why? Because he can redistribute items and buy new ones. We don't need a 12th fighter because 11 will be good enough. Merlinus aids our other units by allowing them to choose from any variety of items, the next unit is just another fighter who's worse than the rest.

Problem is, that might be true, but you can't really make a case against it other than "no, he isn't better" because Merlinus' abilities can't be assigned a real value like you can for all the other units, as I've said 16 times now. It's more depending on how one plays than anything, since some people like to use Merlinus for the exact stated reasons and some like to have the extra fighter. However, I generally assume Merlinus to not be deployed unless there's space after everyone else for him. Why should a character who never gets deployed be tiered? After all, you can't really "use" Merlinus like you can a failure like Wendy, since Merlinus has no supports or experience gain.

FE7 Merlinus is an entirely different thing and I don't think he fits in with the units at all there. I find him qualifying for a unit in FE6 however.

How? I'd say FE7 Merlinus is more qualified for a tier positioning than FE6 Merlinus. He has possible supports, is guaranteed on the map, and levels up, eventually allowing him to actually tank some hits. FE6 has none of that.

[cheetah7071]

Okay. For your given situation, Merlinus > 12th best combat unit. Why? Because he can redistribute items and buy new ones. We don't need a 12th fighter because 11 will be good enough. Merlinus aids our other units by allowing them to choose from any variety of items, the next unit is just another fighter who's worse than the rest.

Problem is, that might be true, but you can't really make a case against it other than "no, he isn't better" because Merlinus' abilities can't be assigned a real value like you can for all the other units, as I've said 16 times now. It's more depending on how one plays than anything, since some people like to use Merlinus for the exact stated reasons and some like to have the extra fighter. However, I generally assume Merlinus to not be deployed unless there's space after everyone else for him. Why should a character who never gets deployed be tiered? After all, you can't really "use" Merlinus like you can a failure like Wendy, since Merlinus has no supports or experience gain.

The counterargument the that argument is to take a look at the items that can be redistributed in the chapters under debate, compare them to the items you'll have in your inventory, and compare the increase you'll get from having those items a bit earlier to having an additional fighter.

So, say chapter 13. The shop is in a fairly inconvenient spot in the map, but if you have a promoted pegasus or something, they'll probably be able to make it there, shop, and survive. Deploying Merlinus in that chapter (assuming you have a flier with enough durability to last) nets you killer weapons something like 5-7 turns earlier. In that chapter, Merlinus IS better than another fighter, because he increases the damage output of your team significantly.

EDIT: the more likely scenario isn't a kamikaze flyer, but rather some of your army rushing ahead while other parts (Merinus included) stay behind to defend the bridge against the reinforcements.

Now, let's look at another chapter where bringing Merlinus has an effect (i.e. one where bringing him allows earlier access to noteworthy items): chapter 12. The noteworthy item in question is the brave bow, in one of the chests on the left side of the map. Now, chances are you on't have any particular desire to send your bow user (Shin in all likelihood) in to trade around with the thief, especially since he'll be better off hitting the enemy archers and shamans on the other side of the map. So Merlinus nets you the brave bow for something like an extra 5 turns by deploying him here. Is this better than bringing an extra fighter? No, probably not. It's one item for one unit, which you can't even really afford to overuse anyways. So in that chapter, he has rather large negative utility--probably only beaten out by people like Wendy who are so useless that a blank slot is better than them.

The arguments aren't impossible to make by any stretch.

Edited July 19, 2009 by cheetah7071

[grandjackal]

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch16.html

Lou promoted cannot double the snipers, and if he fails to have 16 AS, he cannot double the pally either. he will be doubling a grand total of nothing that Lilly isn't, then keep in mind that Lilly can have a CBB support with Roy, OJ and Gonzales who overall would benefit a team more than supporting not-around-all-the-time Chad and can't-do-offense-or-defense-well Ellen...Basically she doubles everything he can anyways, and for things they don't double, her damage output is far greater.

His durability advantage. 2 HP, 3 Def. Then consider those supports.

C Roy, B OJ B Gonzales=3 def.

I would consider the 1 Def that Chad gives, but he's not around all the time and has no reason to be. As you can see though, he's got a grand total of 2 HP on her....Not at all impressive.

As for Avoid?

Lillina=42, Lou=48. Lou's A with Ellen and Lillina's C and B with Roy and Gonzo make it a 51 and 57 deal, still the avoid dif is freaking 6.

So, it's either an actual team of people (Gonzo from that support gets 1 ATK, 2 Def, 10 Crit, 6 acc and avoid, OJ gets 2 ATK, 10 crit, 1 Def, Roy gets 1 ATK, 5 crit, 3 avoid of which basically just caps him off from his BB with Allen and Lance), or Lou needing a support battery that dies when sneezed on which only warrents a unit who has the smallest durability lead ever?