Efficiency Tier List?

[Mekkah]

Let me give a counterexample: Imagine there was some character who served a Jeigan function like Jeigan/Marcus/Sothe, did their thing for x chapters, and then had a storyline death/departure such that they could no longer be used at all? Would that change anything?

Sothe can still do whatever his class allows him to (stealing, desert digging, etc), Marcus can still ferry people. That's about the main difference. And you can still use them as combat units if they don't have a storyline death.

[grandjackal]

Other examples of the fact that Boris could easily climb.

-Treck starts with the speed Boris is bound to have by then, but certainly not the durability or the strength. If anyone would like to tote around Boris, it's this guy. As they grow? Treck is almost identical to him, just has more WT and move. However, do keep in mind that Boris has been helping us through the earlier chapters, and that he is easily comparable later on. Zealot whips his ass in the isles, but loses out afterwards as he starts to decay. Noah...Sort of the middle of the two, and it makes me think he should be above Zealot, who should be above Treck. Also makes me think I should reconsider my stance on them being in lower mid...

- You honestly think Geese is doing better? Sure, he beats Boris's ass offensively later on, but Boris still has decent offense by then and trumps him defensively. Then consider that Boris has been whooping ass earlier and will be still when Geese shows up.

- Cecilia is pretty much a horsie with staffs and aircalibur who dares not be exposed to any danger. Supports don't even help her do anything better. Boris on the other hand can be the thing in front of her keeping her safe, who's offense isn't dependent on if his enemy is a wyvern or not. Might be a tough match here.

- Bartre is pretty much ok for when he arrives. Basically the only difference between them is he hits harder. When Boris promotes, he leaves his mustachiod friend in the dust.

- OJ is a fine unit offensively...Offensively...Defensively? Not so much. OJ might beat him a bit in the western isles, but Boris has been pretty positive most of earlygame, and holds his own just fine later on. All the while being harder to kill. It sucks having to compare to your best support partner.

- Marcus is great earlygame, but just that alone won't make him top of top. Earlygame, all those that end up useful after him (usually thanks to him) are better than him, and Boris can be shown that he does move on without the old man afterwards. He appreciates the help, but Boris has to keep on trucking, and do so he shall.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Mekkah]

You're hyping him waaaay too much (particulary how good/useful his hp/def is, how he "actually has offense" and you're leaving off his major move disadvantage not to mention hit issues) but I can't be assed to go in detail now.

[grandjackal]

Perhaps...but I can't seem not to blur the lines.

Did realize an interesting tidbit though. Did you know that Boris starts a lance rank higher than our cavs, starting at C? Know what this means?

*points to the chapter 6 Silver Lance* Means he's using that a rank sooner than our cav duo.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Dr. Tarrasque]

- You honestly think Geese is doing better? Sure, he beats Boris's ass offensively later on, but Boris still has decent offense by then and trumps him defensively. Then consider that Boris has been whooping ass earlier and will be still when Geese shows up.

... He sucks.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

... He sucks.

Oh my, like 1 or 2 enemies in one map, so tragic...

Nevermind every other chapter not chapter 5...

[Progenitus]

Don't have enough time to respond to everything in your post, sorry cheetah.

Don't want to quote Smash's post since it's too long, but I disagree with most of it.

We can't do tiers based on how well a character uses a unit slot, as you seem to be suggesting. For one thing, how do you weigh units forced into every chapter they exist in, like Roy or Athos?

Same thing as always; does having them fight because they're competent at fighting make us better off than having them hide in a corner because they suck and fail at fighting? (In this case, Athos fits the former, Roy after he level caps and waits until he promotes fits the latter). The only difference is that they don't take up a unit slot.

How does your system of deploying in every chapter work in super-low deployment maps like FE7 chapter 30, with it's 2 deployment slots, one of which is Hector?

We give X unit an advantage over Y unit if they use that slot better. But if they're far inferior to the best choice (IIRC you'd probably field Matthew for the chests), then it won't be worth much.

Plus this leads to stupidity like deploying Jeigans into every chapter, when no serious well-informed player would ever do that if aiming for efficiency over all else. It just isn't smart.

No serious well-informed player would ever use bottom tiers either. So what?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Oh my, like 1 or 2 enemies in one map, so tragic...

Nevermind every other chapter not chapter 5...

11 out of 13 actually (12 out of 14 if you count the boss). You think I'm going to snapshot every enemy he sucks against just to debunk some bad hype? That doesn't deserve such effort.

He sucks. Can't accomplish much in his starting chapters and if that's the case... how will he able to do much in the next?

Edited July 21, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

11 out of 13 actually (12 out of 14 if you count the boss). You think I'm going to snapshot every enemy he sucks against just to debunk some bad hype? That doesn't deserve such effort.

He sucks. Can't accomplish much in his starting chapters and if that's the case... how will he able to do much in the next?

Stat variations say that is not the case. Not all axers have 7 AS. Proof being.

You also seem to have forgotten the boss is weighed down by 4 due to his steel axe. So if the boss somehow magically got 11 speed...

Next chapter.

- Only guys who can 1RKO him is Allen with an iron lance. Bors with a javelin or iron lance can make a cleaner kill for Roy and Lance.

3 levels, and he avoids being doubled by axers in chapter 3 if they are wielding iron axes. The rest I've outlined earlier.

It's one chapter, and not a total blow-out for him, get over it.

Also note that Boris is able to get to A lances quicker due to being stuck to them (which is a disadvantage), and starting at C (which is an advantage). If he gets to A by chapter 7, he can actually pull off offense. Example. I can't seem to not have my team about level 11 by chapter 7 (pull the Boris not seeing action BS, I'll just say early on we're playing quite a bit more defensively).

Boris level 11: 29 HP, 10 Str, 7 Skill, 7 Speed, 8.5 Luck, 14.15 Defense. With silver. 24 ATK, 87 hit, 22 avoid.

3RKO. Marcus needs to be level 9 to pull this off. The wyvern can't double. Steel, the wyvern 4RKOs. With a javy, 6RKO.

Even considering speed, Boris would need to be screwed out of 4 speed to be doubled by steel. For the javy? 2.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Bors's move problems should be addressed first. List of chapters where 4 move is problematic: all chapters.

Nah, just kidding, I'm not that lame. 2, 5, 8, 8x, 9, 11E, 12, 13, 14, 14x... actually at this point I'm really considering just saying "all chapters" and being done with it because FE6 maps past earlygame are huge.

Bors can be rescued and dropped, right? This is not necessarily true. After promotion Bors has 16 con. The only promoted units that can rescue him are Douglas and Barth. Unless you're implying that after a certain point we're going to have to deploy one of our unpromoted mounted units to carry Bors around (Thany, Treck, Allen, Lance), Bors's move problems are actually made worse by promotion because then he has no way to get around them.

Hit issues are next. Bors gets nothing in the way of supports to fix this until like chapter 8x. For this I can go chapter by chapter.

Chapter 1: 1/0 Bors has ~57 displayed against fighters/brigands and ~67 against archers. Axe users are especially common in chapter 2 as well.

Chapter 4: 5/0 Bors has ~62 displayed against everything he doesn't have WTA against in this map.

Chapter 5: Forests. 6/0 Bors has ~42 displayed against Iron Axe fighters and Iron Sword mercs and ~50 displayed against Steel Axe fighters. The Iron Bow nomads and Hand Axe brigands he has ~55 displayed against when they aren't on forests.

These are pretty bad for earlygame. Note that if Bors wants to switch to Javelin, he loses 15 hit, which dips his displayed hit to under 50 in pretty much every comparison above.

Another earlygame note: chapter 2 fighters do have a good chance at 7 AS, and Bors has a good chance of not having 4 AS.

Starting from around chapter 9 or so, Bors has around like 65-70 displayed before supports against enemy axe users. Before you go "oh it's not that bad," Gonzales has that much hit against enemy axe users as well. Oops. And Gonzales attacks twice way more often than Bors does. So unless you want to set up a double standard, Bors's hit is as bad as Gonzales's, and the implications are worse because Bors needs to be like 16/0 to double the slowest fighters in chapter 10.

I believe this sums up Mekkah's two major gripes.

Edited July 21, 2009 by dondon151

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Stat variations say that is not the case. Not all axers have 7 AS. Proof being.

I know. I never said all of them are doubling. The first bunch was to illustrate that he's got bad hit. The second was to show that some enemies double him so he's not as durable as you're probably thinking.

You also seem to have forgotten the boss is weighed down by 4 due to his steel axe. So if the boss somehow magically got 11 speed...

Point out where I said the boss is doubling. I only implied that he's seeing similar fail with the boss (low hit and high rate of getting hit).

Next chapter.

- Only guys who can 1RKO him is Allen with an iron lance. Bors with a javelin or iron lance can make a cleaner kill for Roy and Lance.

3 levels, and he avoids being doubled by axers in chapter 3 if they are wielding iron axes. The rest I've outlined earlier.

It's one chapter, and not a total blow-out for him, get over it.

A map where he'll easily get left behind and requires rescuing. Otherwise he'll only be able to attack just 2-3 enemies. Also, 3 levels by chapter 3 when he's hardly doing a thing?

Edited July 21, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Nah, just kidding, I'm not that lame. 2, 5, 8, 8x, 9, 11E, 12, 13, 14, 14x... actually at this point I'm really considering just saying "all chapters" and being done with it because FE6 maps past earlygame are huge.

Will address this later.

Bors can be rescued and dropped, right? This is not necessarily true. After promotion Bors has 16 con. The only promoted units that can rescue him are Douglas and Barth. Unless you're implying that after a certain point we're going to have to deploy one of our unpromoted mounted units to carry Bors around (Thany, Treck, Allen, Lance), Bors's move problems are actually made worse by promotion because then he has no way to get around them.

Legitimate point. I didn't even think of con. By then though, there are two routes to think of, Ilia and Sacae. At times, Ilia has plenty of places for fliers to come at you from any angle, that being the back. With Sacae, it's a strange situation. There is no better unit to soak up attacks than an armor on these levels, however the levels also happen to be insanely huge.

Chapter 21 and onwards though, there are plenty of wyverns that just fly at you from any angle upon your set path, and you can't not avoid them. Someone guarding the back is as good as someone guarding your sides and your front.

Weirdest point has to be this is Wendy's best advantage over the other 2 ;;>> oddly enough.

Hit issues are next. Bors gets nothing in the way of supports to fix this until like chapter 8x. For this I can go chapter by chapter.

Chapter 1: 1/0 Bors has ~57 displayed against fighters/brigands and ~67 against archers. Axe users are especially common in chapter 2 as well.

Chapter 4: 5/0 Bors has ~62 displayed against everything he doesn't have WTA against in this map.

Chapter 5: Forests. 6/0 Bors has ~42 displayed against Iron Axe fighters and Iron Sword mercs and ~50 displayed against Steel Axe fighters. The Iron Bow nomads and Hand Axe brigands he has ~55 displayed against when they aren't on forests.

These are pretty bad for earlygame. Note that if Bors wants to switch to Javelin, he loses 15 hit, which dips his displayed hit to under 50 in pretty much every comparison above.

Pretty much conceded chapter 1 and 5, those are indeed his worst chapters.

Funny fact though. Allen happens to have 2 less hit than Boris with a lance at equal levels. No one else is really doing any better until supports kick in. If you say any support regarding Roy, I'll be happy to accept you conceed move being a problem. Allen and Lance getting a C only warrents 3 hit.

Another earlygame note: chapter 2 fighters do have a good chance at 7 AS, and Bors has a good chance of not having 4 AS.

There's also like 3 of them on the map your group will actually fight, considering Deick's group will have taken care of the rest by the time they meet up.

Starting from around chapter 9 or so, Bors has around like 65-70 displayed before supports against enemy axe users. Before you go "oh it's not that bad," Gonzales has that much hit against enemy axe users as well. Oops. And Gonzales attacks twice way more often than Bors does. So unless you want to set up a double standard, Bors's hit is as bad as Gonzales's, and the implications are worse because Bors needs to be like 16/0 to double the slowest fighters in chapter 10.

Well good thing I'm not saying he's better than Gonzo.

Besides, if you're saying he's supported by then, then perhaps his accuracy won't be that bad a problem. OJ's having a great time on the isles...

However, i pretty much conceeded his offense is pretty bad here, but his durability is still doing fine here. It should matter.

I believe this sums up Mekkah's two major gripes.

Well you summed it up well.

I know. I never said all of them are doubling. The first bunch was to illustrate that he's got bad hit. The second was to show that some enemies double him so he's not as durable as you're probably thinking.

Oh ;;>> Well I never said he did good in chapter 1. It's only one chapter anyways. Besides, no reason he shouldn't be flinging the javelin (why should Lance bother with it when Marcus is cutting everything, and Lance has swords?). Not like Boris can't just give it back next chapter.

Point out where I said the boss is doubling. I only implied that he's seeing similar fail with the boss (low hit and high rate of getting hit).

Everyone not Marcus is having trouble with this boss, as only Marcus can double him, and everyone else is doing piss damage. At least Boris can attempt to lob javelins at him.

A map where he'll easily get left behind and requires rescuing. Otherwise he'll only be able to attack just 2-3 enemies. Also, 3 levels by chapter 3 when he's hardly doing a thing?

You have 3 goddamn cavs, and only 2 other people worth a damn rescuing (Roy, Ellen), I REALLY don't see the problem of transporting him. This pretty much goes for anyone they transport. One is likely to be transporting Roy, and he has no problems, as he is supported with his transporters. Likely, this leaves a couple holes open early on (like Allen, Marcus, Zealot, Clarine). This alone can transport the other goddamn half of your army. On top of that, Boris doesn't need supports to be able to live early on, he's just capable of doing that. Others need their supports with them, meaning if you transport them you better bring their luggage.

As for 3 levels when he's doing nothing, you make it sounds like he misses every shot and is attacking no one. There are plenty of enemies compared to your guys. It can be shown that moving him around is not as big a problem as one would think, he's doing fine.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Legitimate point. I didn't even think of con. By then though, there are two routes to think of, Ilia and Sacae. At times, Ilia has plenty of places for fliers to come at you from any angle, that being the back. With Sacae, it's a strange situation. There is no better unit to soak up attacks than an armor on these levels, however the levels also happen to be insanely huge.

Chapter 21 and onwards though, there are plenty of wyverns that just fly at you from any angle upon your set path, and you can't not avoid them. Someone guarding the back is as good as someone guarding your sides and your front.

"Fliers coming in at every angle" doesn't mitigate having poor mov, It would be excusable if enemies reinforced from behind your position and attacked you from there, but the general rule is that people who move forward the fastest see the most enemies.

Funny fact though. Allen happens to have 2 less hit than Boris with a lance at equal levels. No one else is really doing any better until supports kick in. If you say any support regarding Roy, I'll be happy to accept you conceed move being a problem. Allen and Lance getting a C only warrents 3 hit.

Allen happens to have 33 more hit than Bors with a sword against enemy axe users, so yeah, being locked to lances is not good in the early chapters.

Well good thing I'm not saying he's better than Gonzo.

I'm not saying that you were either. You hyped Gonzales's poor hit a lot earlier when arguing against him, which I partially countered by saying it's not terrible and he usually gets two shots to hit, so logically you (or someone else) should be hyping Bors's poor hit as much as, if not more than you were.

Besides, if you're saying he's supported by then, then perhaps his accuracy won't be that bad a problem. OJ's having a great time on the isles...

There are 2 problems with Bors's supports: one is that his supporters all suck, and the second is that his best support with OJ is kind of slow (as in, Bors won't have the bonuses when he needs them the most).

Everyone not Marcus is having trouble with this boss, as only Marcus can double him, and everyone else is doing piss damage. At least Boris can attempt to lob javelins at him.

So can everyone that's not Roy...

[grandjackal]

"Fliers coming in at every angle" doesn't mitigate having poor mov, It would be excusable if enemies reinforced from behind your position and attacked you from there, but the general rule is that people who move forward the fastest see the most enemies.

You also make it sound like those in the back see no action at all.

And there are chapters where enemies spawn behind you. The bridge, Kel's chapter, chapter 7, chapter 8, Echidna's chapter, Zephiel's chapter...Pretty sure there's more, but my meory is bad as you know.

Allen happens to have 33 more hit than Bors with a sword against enemy axe users, so yeah, being locked to lances is not good in the early chapters.

Now we know why Allen is better than Boris.

I'm not saying that you were either. You hyped Gonzales's poor hit a lot earlier when arguing against him, which I partially countered by saying it's not terrible and he usually gets two shots to hit, so logically you (or someone else) should be hyping Bors's poor hit as much as, if not more than you were.

*whimpers* ;;>>

There are 2 problems with Bors's supports: one is that his supporters all suck, and the second is that his best support with OJ is kind of slow (as in, Bors won't have the bonuses when he needs them the most).

Did not account that OJ happened to be slow...;;>>

So can everyone that's not Roy...

Yet the only ones who hit harder are Marcus. Allen ties, Lance is a bit weak at the moment.

[dondon151]

You also make it sound like those in the back see no action at all.

And there are chapters where enemies spawn behind you. The bridge, Kel's chapter, chapter 7, chapter 8, Echidna's chapter, Zephiel's chapter...Pretty sure there's more, but my meory is bad as you know.

I'm pretty sure those are the major ones, and amount at best to like 4 reinforcement cavaliers.

Now we know why Allen is better than Boris.

I illustrated that Bors has the most problems against axe wielding enemies in earlygame, so pointing out that Allen has hit problems against them with a lance is ignoring that he can use swords... I didn't say anything about enemy soldiers or knights, which Bors has little problems hitting, and Allen can just switch to swords if he really doesn't want to miss anyway.

[grandjackal]

I'm pretty sure those are the major ones, and amount at best to like 4 reinforcement cavaliers.

The bridge, no way you'll be across it by the time they start flooding towards you. I'd say it's major help there.

Chapter 7 and 8 obviously you won't either.

Unsure about Kel's map.

Zephiel and Echidna's chapter?...Yeah, maybe you will be done by the time they show up.

I illustrated that Bors has the most problems against axe wielding enemies in earlygame, so pointing out that Allen has hit problems against them with a lance is ignoring that he can use swords... I didn't say anything about enemy soldiers or knights, which Bors has little problems hitting, and Allen can just switch to swords if he really doesn't want to miss anyway.

So you went all this way to argue a point I conceded a page ago?

[cheetah7071]

Same thing as always; does having them fight because they're competent at fighting make us better off than having them hide in a corner because they suck and fail at fighting? (In this case, Athos fits the former, Roy after he level caps and waits until he promotes fits the latter). The only difference is that they don't take up a unit slot.

Well, in chapter 14, Sophia can choose to aim for grabbing the guiding ring (thus providing negative utility in the form of being walled in or rescued, but positive utility in the form of a guiding ring) or can just stand still the whole map (no survival rank in efficiency tiers, remember?). One of those strategies uses Sophia, the other does not.

Even if we then require the player who grabs the guiding ring to continue to field Sophia for some bizarre reason, she's certainly no worse than the people below her at hiding in a corner, except she did something worthwhile in her joining chapter.

We give X unit an advantage over Y unit if they use that slot better. But if they're far inferior to the best choice (IIRC you'd probably field Matthew for the chests), then it won't be worth much.

Fair enough.

No serious well-informed player would ever use bottom tiers either. So what?

That's an inherent contradiction every tier list has to deal with. Why would a player with perfect knowledge of the game and a true desire for efficiency ever use bad characters? The answer is that they wouldn't. Yet the lower tier characters must be ranked as if they're being used. So the player clearly is not efficient in their character selection. This much I grant.

However, inefficient isn't the same thing as simpleminded. An inefficient player can easily decide to field Marcus in every chapter; the tiers need to take into account his performance in such situations, and this drags his position down. But an equally inefficient player can decide he's using Marcus, but then not simplemindedly deploy him in chapters where he's a liability. This player is still making character decisions on seeming whims (he could be deploying Wendy or Sophia elsewhere), but is making those character decisions in an intelligent matter.

To put it another way, it's generally accepted that a tier player will use a character in proportion to how good they are in the tier list (so he'll use god tier nearly every time, top tier quite often, etc). So why isn't it acceptable for him to decide whether to deploy units proportionately to how well they do in that chapter (while keeping in mind that cexp gained in this chapter will make future chapters easier)? This new proposal encompasses the old one--god tier characters will have high positive utility in enarly every chapter, and thus will be fielded quite often. Bottom tier characters will often have very negative utility, and will thus be fielded only rarely. Of course, in the case of forced deployment, the distinction is between doing something and cowering in the corner, not between being deployed or not being deployed.

[Progenitus]

Well, in chapter 14, Sophia can choose to aim for grabbing the guiding ring (thus providing negative utility in the form of being walled in or rescued, but positive utility in the form of a guiding ring) or can just stand still the whole map (no survival rank in efficiency tiers, remember?). One of those strategies uses Sophia, the other does not.

Even if we then require the player who grabs the guiding ring to continue to field Sophia for some bizarre reason, she's certainly no worse than the people below her at hiding in a corner, except she did something worthwhile in her joining chapter.

But how would you weigh the guiding ring? I mean, it's not any work at all to move Sophia around and land on the guiding ring spot in the desert. And crappy people like Dorothy and Wolt can also contribute by doing potshots in early chapters, or trading/shoving/etc before Sophia even joins. How much weight would that hold?

That's an inherent contradiction every tier list has to deal with. Why would a player with perfect knowledge of the game and a true desire for efficiency ever use bad characters? The answer is that they wouldn't. Yet the lower tier characters must be ranked as if they're being used. So the player clearly is not efficient in their character selection. This much I grant.

However, inefficient isn't the same thing as simpleminded. An inefficient player can easily decide to field Marcus in every chapter; the tiers need to take into account his performance in such situations, and this drags his position down. But an equally inefficient player can decide he's using Marcus, but then not simplemindedly deploy him in chapters where he's a liability. This player is still making character decisions on seeming whims (he could be deploying Wendy or Sophia elsewhere), but is making those character decisions in an intelligent matter.

To put it another way, it's generally accepted that a tier player will use a character in proportion to how good they are in the tier list (so he'll use god tier nearly every time, top tier quite often, etc). So why isn't it acceptable for him to decide whether to deploy units proportionately to how well they do in that chapter (while keeping in mind that cexp gained in this chapter will make future chapters easier)? This new proposal encompasses the old one--god tier characters will have high positive utility in enarly every chapter, and thus will be fielded quite often. Bottom tier characters will often have very negative utility, and will thus be fielded only rarely. Of course, in the case of forced deployment, the distinction is between doing something and cowering in the corner, not between being deployed or not being deployed.

...what? I don't know what you're trying to say here. "deploy units proportionally to how well they do in that chapter"? Isn't that what we're already doing; unit A > unit B for this chapter and such?

Again, by saying "yeah well, we don't ever have to field Marcus ever again after a certain point", it's basically boiling down to an optimum playthrough list, which is something we want to avoid. If Marcus starts to suck after a certain point in the game, that has to be taken into account towards his usefulness.

[cheetah7071]

But how would you weigh the guiding ring? I mean, it's not any work at all to move Sophia around and land on the guiding ring spot in the desert. And crappy people like Dorothy and Wolt can also contribute by doing potshots in early chapters, or trading/shoving/etc before Sophia even joins. How much weight would that hold?

You're still using her more than the person who lets her die is. If nothing else, she's potentially requiring walling.

...what? I don't know what you're trying to say here. "deploy units proportionally to how well they do in that chapter"? Isn't that what we're already doing; unit A > unit B for this chapter and such?

Again, by saying "yeah well, we don't ever have to field Marcus ever again after a certain point", it's basically boiling down to an optimum playthrough list, which is something we want to avoid. If Marcus starts to suck after a certain point in the game, that has to be taken into account towards his usefulness.

I'm trying to say that the player should be allowed to deploy units in a chapter without the intention of using them for the rest of the game, just because they do well in that chapter.

And it doesn't boil down to an optimum playthrough rank for the same reason it doesn't when the player is assumed to use every unit he picks for the entire game--the player makes suboptimal decisions with regards of who to field. This is an inherent and neccesary requirement of all tier lists, and is the only assumption you need to make my proposal work.

[Progenitus]

You're still using her more than the person who lets her die is. If nothing else, she's potentially requiring walling.

..huh? This doesn't answer my point at all. What does this have to do with proving why or why not Wolt/Dorothy potshotting/shoving/etc. early on is better or worse than Sophia getting a guiding ring?

I'm trying to say that the player should be allowed to deploy units in a chapter without the intention of using them for the rest of the game, just because they do well in that chapter.

And it doesn't boil down to an optimum playthrough rank for the same reason it doesn't when the player is assumed to use every unit he picks for the entire game--the player makes suboptimal decisions with regards of who to field. This is an inherent and neccesary requirement of all tier lists, and is the only assumption you need to make my proposal work.

The problem with this is that fielding unit A over unit B in a certain chapter is usefulness towards unit A, not unit B, and it gives a very unfair advantage towards unit B by not even having to field them anymore.

Say that we have Marcus vs, like, Lot or something. So they go and do their stuff for earlygame chapters. Then after a few chapters Marcus goes "well I'm outta here" and we stop fielding him and since now we have an empty slot, in place we field, like, Echidna or something. The problem is that it's now an Echidna vs Lot debate, not Marcus vs Lot. We're now measuring Echidna's usefulness, not Marcus'.

Edited July 23, 2009 by smash fanatic

[cheetah7071]

..huh? This doesn't answer my point at all. What does this have to do with proving why or why not Wolt/Dorothy potshotting/shoving/etc. early on is better or worse than Sophia getting a guiding ring?

Well, that's just something to be debated. I was just making the point (which I thought you were conteting) that Sophia should get credit for the ring.

The problem with this is that fielding unit A over unit B in a certain chapter is usefulness towards unit A, not unit B, and it gives a very unfair advantage towards unit B by not even having to field them anymore.

Say that we have Marcus vs, like, Lot or something. So they go and do their stuff for earlygame chapters. Then after a few chapters Marcus goes "well I'm outta here" and we stop fielding him and since now we have an empty slot, in place we field, like, Echidna or something. The problem is that it's now an Echidna vs Lot debate, not Marcus vs Lot. We're now measuring Echidna's usefulness, not Marcus'.

Except that Marcus isn't contributing anything. His utility is precisely zero. There is no difference ebtween him not being fielded and him not existing. Marcus doesn't get credit for freeing up a slot.

[Dat Nick]

In FEDS it's always assumed we kill off units the second they become a detriment, I don't see why we wouldn't do the same here.

Well, not necessarily kill them since it doesn't provide the benefit FEDS does, but I'm sure you get the analogy. Who here honestly uses Marcus after he starts sucking?

[Vykan12]

Say that we have Marcus vs, like, Lot or something. So they go and do their stuff for earlygame chapters. Then after a few chapters Marcus goes "well I'm outta here" and we stop fielding him and since now we have an empty slot, in place we field, like, Echidna or something. The problem is that it's now an Echidna vs Lot debate, not Marcus vs Lot. We're now measuring Echidna's usefulness, not Marcus'.

How would you adapt such an argument to dealing with availability though?

Like let's say we compare Bors to Yodel. 90% of the comparison is Bors to an empty slot, which makes for a pretty boring debate.

[grandjackal]

How would you adapt such an argument to dealing with availability though?

Like let's say we compare Bors to Yodel. 90% of the comparison is Bors to an empty slot, which makes for a pretty boring debate.

This. If units are to be compared, the whole thing must be measured out. This isn't FE10, where they just throw units at you that'll just suck forever, and are only around because you got no one else or some shit like that. If Zealot has a bad lategame, it shouldn't be ignored just because we don't have to bring him. This also makes just about anyone lower than upper mid completely irrelevent at times. This is a tier list, to compare unit uses throughout the game. Example: Boris can actually be pretty decent at promotion. He can get there, but he needs to be fielded in the western isles. He shouldn't be benched just for that if he can be of use later.

[Dat Nick]

Like let's say we compare Bors to Yodel. 90% of the comparison is Bors to an empty slot, which makes for a pretty boring debate.

Yodel would win during the time Bors is acting as a detriment, then Bors would win when he stops sucking. That's the analogy that's always used for negative utility, and it always made perfect sense to me.