Efficiency Tier List?

[Hero]

I'll put it this way even. If you don't move on, we'll just choose to ignore you. After all, you already derailed the topic once, we don't have to tolerate it again.

So, the current discussion was Saul and Ellen. Was it that quickly shot down?

Clarine deserves her spot, she's very good in just about everything but Magic and Defense, which isn't as significant as it could be because she'll be doubling practically everything and is one of the best dodging machines in FE history.

Saul could move up a few slots because he's probably a lot better then Ellen when you get him, but he shouldn't be too high. Healers are always a good thing, but their usefulness will be constrained the fact that they have a long way to go before they can attack. Especially with the scarcity of guiding rings in FE6.

[Dat Nick]

Clarine deserves her spot, she's very good in just about everything but Magic and Defense, which isn't as significant as it could be because she'll be doubling practically everything and is one of the best dodging machines in FE history.

Failing to kill with a crit isn't as significant as it should be?

[grandjackal]

I would like to thank Shuuda for the service. It's much appreciated.

Anywho, you'll have to try a bit harder than that Hero. It's all fine and dandy to make a claim, but show proof that he deserves to be higher, compare him to someone above him, if you can.

[Vykan12]

Oh yeah, why IS Lance > Alan? I hope there's a huge recent comparison between them I can look at.

[Dat Nick]

Alan has doubling issues, Lance doesn't

[Hero]

Failing to kill with a crit isn't as significant as it should be?

She'll be able to kill most enemies with a crit from the moment she's promoted, unless you do something silly like promote her at level ten. Her damage output when she first gets anima is more like an unpromoted unit once she first promotes because of her stats and that fact that she can only use Fire, but she gains experience quickly. Clarine will never match a character like Lilina in damage output, but unlike Lilina or even Lugh she'll reliably max both speed and luck. These are what's most important to a healer without an illogically high defense growth. In a perfect strategy Clarine should be risked in attacks against bosses or other serious enemies.

Alan has doubling issues, Lance doesn't

Lance has issues doing enough damage to high defense enemies, Alan doesn't. They'll both probably be able to double most enemies in the game, though neither will be able to double mercs and myrmidons barring an RNG blessing.

I suppose Lance has a leg up since he can double in the first chapter while Alan can't, but their stats are practically identical and high-strength sword users are something of a commodity in FE6. Which one ends up better is really up to the RNG in the end, but in both of my playthroughs I've seen Alan pull ahead.

[Vykan12]

Alan has doubling issues, Lance doesn't

There's more to it than that. First, the spd difference between them is only 2, and grows to 3 after a whopping 20 levels. Second, Alan has the exact same str gap in his favor. Sure, 2 spd is probably > 2 str, but not by some huge extent. If neither double or both double, Alan wins, so Lance only has an advantage when that isn't the case. Even then, if Alan 2HKOes while Lance 3HKOes, it'll take the same number of rounds for either character to kill. Third, Alan has some minor durability wins over Lance.

Bases: 1 hp/1 luck

Growths: 5 hp/5 luck/5 def

It may not seem like much, but these characters are so identical that even minor differences are important. Then again, Lance has a slight hit advantage to compensate.

[grandjackal]

She'll be able to kill most enemies with a crit from the moment she's promoted, unless you do something silly like promote her at level ten.

Even sillier, you would rather have 3 more magic, or weapon rank to use stronger spells like Aircalibur?

Aside from the point though, even with a slightly stronger weapon she would have a hard time killing, even with a crit. Level 20/1, she'd be packing fire, with 15 mt. Around this time, enemies are rather tough in this game. They'd have about 1-3 Res, around 45 HP. They're not really pussies, FE6 enemies.

Even with early promo, she'd only pack 12 might on the western isles, enemies have 1 Res and about 35 HP, she has to land a crit to kill someone in a round, where most would insta-kill. It never really gets better, unless we have better weapons. If anything, Clarine is begging BADLY for an early promo.

Her damage output when she first gets anima is more like an unpromoted unit once she first promotes because of her stats and that fact that she can only use Fire, but she gains experience quickly. Clarine will never match a character like Lilina in damage output, but unlike Lilina or even Lugh she'll reliably max both speed and luck. These are what's most important to a healer without an illogically high defense growth. In a perfect strategy Clarine should be risked in attacks against bosses or other serious enemies.

Loving those numbers. You need supports in this game to have good enough avoid to make up for crap durability. This is called support dependency, which means she needs specific people fielded. Granted they're all top tiers, but it doesn't stop the fact she needs them to have the avoid safe enough for her absolute garbage durability.

Example, that maxed speed and luck is 80 avoid, and even lategame wyverns, the least accurate of the power hitter enemies, have hit in the 118 range. Basically 38 avoid, which when her durability and 40 mt is concerned is a BIT too risky for her. She needs to be 20/17 to not get killed in one shot. This is a problem.

Lance has issues doing enough damage to high defense enemies, Alan doesn't. They'll both probably be able to double most enemies in the game, though neither will be able to double mercs and myrmidons barring an RNG blessing.

Lance can eventually double heroes and mercs, something Allen will never know. High defense enemies tend to have the problem that there is usually a slayer weapon meant to answer them. the only answer for not doubling something is a speedwing, something far more valuable.

I suppose Lance has a leg up since he can double in the first chapter while Alan can't, but their stats are practically identical and high-strength sword users are something of a commodity in FE6. Which one ends up better is really up to the RNG in the end, but in both of my playthroughs I've seen Alan pull ahead.

Till we realize that Lance can actually double those guys. Lance is seriously as fast as Rutger generally, or at least he gets to such speed rather quickly. So Rutger with somewhat better strength ona horse with the best weapon selection you could ask for. Know the only thing keeping Rutger from topping the list? No ranged option. Lance has that and then some, just no crit (not that he needs the swordmaster bonus).

Edited November 21, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Vykan12]

Even sillier, you would rather have 3 more magic, or weapon rank to use stronger spells like Aircalibur?

And 5 more spd. Doubling is the key to Clarine's offense, since then she's 2RKOing consistently at 1-2 range, which is probably above average.

Lance can eventually double heroes and mercs, something Allen will never know.

I highly doubt Lance will ever consistently double heroes.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch16.html

Lance needs to be 20/5 or higher.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch22.html

20/9 or higher.

Moreover, that only holds true if Lance doesn't weigh himself down, something he probably needs to do for damage purposes. Granted, the hero might weigh himself down as well, but they tend to use light weapons anyway.

High defense enemies tend to have the problem that there is usually a slayer weapon meant to answer them. the only answer for not doubling something is a speedwing, something far more valuable.

A few problems with that. First, slayer weapons often cause a OHKO (hammer, wyrmslayer, and horseslayer come to mind), so that's equally beneficial to both characters. Second, some of those (particularly the wyrmslayer) are very limited, so it's not a very permanent solution to Lance's atk issues.

[Progenitus]

Lance may have issues doubling heroes/mercs, but Alan is much more borderline on enemies like snipers. This is especialyl true before he promotes as he only reaches ~14 spd before promoting (and getting a nice +2 promo bonus). For example, ch 12 lalum route fighters/warriors/archers hover around 9-12 spd. Lance only needs to be level 17 to double all of those enemies. Alan at level 20 will still have issues doubling the 11 AS ones (14.55 spd average) and won't double the 12 AS ones.

Also, on things like durability, Lance gets slightly more def from supports, although Alan does get more hit/crit. Most of their stats aside from str/spd are none too significant though; by 20/1 Alan has 2 HP/1 def/2 lck and Lance has 3 skl/1 res. This equates to Lance winning hit by 4 (and avo by 4). Assuming they get an A with each other and B with Roy, Lance gets an extra def/res from supports to cancel the def lead and make a 2 res lead (about cancels 2 HP). Alan gets 5 more hit/crit from supports, which about cancels Lance's hit from skl, and gets a tad more crit, versus Lance's own 4 avo (and Lance has crit eva from supports, but bleh).

So really, we're just caring about their str/spd differences. Or more specifically, the spd difference, as we all know the str is going to matter.

Also, I do agree taht Clarine has to move down. I remember Reikken once showing that Clarine could get double crits on paladins in ch 16 or something and STILL not kill them. Her offense is way too poor for top tier.

Edited November 21, 2009 by 8========================D

[Dat Nick]

I remember Reikken once showing that Clarine could get double crits on paladins in ch 16 or something and STILL not kill them. Her offense is way too poor for top tier.

Crit and a hit, not a double crit. That would be extremely pathetic >_>

[Progenitus]

Ah, right >_>

[Mekkah]

I suppose Lance has a leg up since he can double in the first chapter while Alan can't

late but did you ever play hard mode

[CATS]

Aside from just poor offense, Clarine doesn't have any significant wins over Ellen/Saul until promotion. Her supports are slow and won't be around during pre-promotion time (maybe C's towards the tail end of this time period), and durability isn't nearly as important since none of them should be getting attacked if you can avoid it. All she really has is move, though Ellen has availability, and Saul is harder to OHKO for whatever that's worth.

Anyways, the point is that Clarine's advantages over these two only exist in any significant capacity for half the game. There's a one tier gap between lots of combat units whose differences are relevant for the entire game (Roy vs Ward for example), so I certainly don't see how there's a two tier gap for advantages that only matter for half the game.

[grandjackal]

Aside from just poor offense, Clarine doesn't have any significant wins over Ellen/Saul until promotion. Her supports are slow and won't be around during pre-promotion time (maybe C's towards the tail end of this time period), and durability isn't nearly as important since none of them should be getting attacked if you can avoid it. All she really has is move, though Ellen has availability, and Saul is harder to OHKO for whatever that's worth.

Anyways, the point is that Clarine's advantages over these two only exist in any significant capacity for half the game. There's a one tier gap between lots of combat units whose differences are relevant for the entire game (Roy vs Ward for example), so I certainly don't see how there's a two tier gap for advantages that only matter for half the game.

Sounds reasonable, does anyone dissaprove? So, should Clarine fall to their level, or just in high, if so where specifically?

[dondon151]

Clarine's primary support option is medium speed (the same as Dieck's supports) and joins early. Her secondary support option joins a bit later but starts off with more base points and grows fast. If Clarine promotes early, then they will probably be at C each; if she promotes closer to the same time as everyone else, then they will probably be at B each.

Roy vs. Wade is a lot closer than you may think. Roy doesn't decisively win until he starts doubling (chapter 10 onwards), and then he level caps by chapter 16 while Wade promotes and starts stomping Roy again on the offensive end (because Roy stops doubling again). And he wins defense too, as long as he doesn't get doubled.

EDIT: wow Grandjackal I like how the last word wins and that post I made earlier doesn't matter whatsoever.

Edited November 22, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Clarine's primary support option is medium speed (the same as Dieck's supports) and joins early. Her secondary support option joins a bit later but starts off with more base points and grows fast. If Clarine promotes early, then they will probably be at C each; if she promotes closer to the same time as everyone else, then they will probably be at B each.

Roy vs. Wade is a lot closer than you may think. Roy doesn't decisively win until he starts doubling (chapter 10 onwards), and then he level caps by chapter 16 while Wade promotes and starts stomping Roy again on the offensive end (because Roy stops doubling again). And he wins defense too, as long as he doesn't get doubled.

EDIT: wow Grandjackal I like how the last word wins and that post I made earlier doesn't matter whatsoever.

Yeesh, I find something reasonable and I get sniped for it, how nice. Pardon me for not knowing you were about to make a disagreeing post, of which I ask if anyone disagrees. Chill out.

Either way, seems you guys have a bit more to go with, so feel free. I'll wait till more is brought in.

[Vykan12]

If you're going to make changes, what about everything discussed on genesis?

[Dat Nick]

That Mekkah never updates anyway? :/

[CATS]

Clarine's primary support option is medium speed (the same as Dieck's supports) and joins early. Her secondary support option joins a bit later but starts off with more base points and grows fast. If Clarine promotes early, then they will probably be at C each; if she promotes closer to the same time as everyone else, then they will probably be at B each.

I managed B Rutger on my current run around Ch 14. C Dieck still hasn't happened (lol 60 turns for C). I found her supports hampered by the fact that she can often only build with one of Dieck/Rutger on a turn since they're also trying to stay next to each other and such. As a result, I mainly just aimed for her Rutger support since Dieck is so fucking slow.

Double B's for Clarine is 175 turns of support (over half of that is to get the B with Dieck; 120 turns ftl). That happening by Ch 14 requires 13-14 turns of support per chapter, which seems pretty high. Most chapters are taking less than 20 turns in the first place. The figure might be reduced by whatever times she can stand next to both her supporters, but then there should also be turns where she doesn't get to stand next to either one, so w/e.

Roy vs. Wade is a lot closer than you may think. Roy doesn't decisively win until he starts doubling (chapter 10 onwards), and then he level caps by chapter 16 while Wade promotes and starts stomping Roy again on the offensive end (because Roy stops doubling again). And he wins defense too, as long as he doesn't get doubled.

It sounds like Roy is only decisively beating Ward for about half the game (similar to Clarine vs Ellen/Saul), and yet they're only one tier apart, so that would reinforce my point.

Edited November 22, 2009 by CATS

[grandjackal]

If you're going to make changes, what about everything discussed on genesis?

It's cause I have learned I am not the best at managing this thing, and let's face it this is like the first activity this topic has seen in weeks since genesis's starting, and it starts with Mori flaming the topic.

You could say I'm none too hopeful of this topic living for much longer.

[Vykan12]

I can take over if you don't mind. My first order of business would be reading through all the genesis topics and making suitable changes here.

[CATS]

Link to this genesis place, if all the discussion has moved over there?

[Dat Nick]

I wouldn't have a problem

btw CATS: http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/forum.htm

Edited November 22, 2009 by laws b122

[dondon151]

I managed B Rutger on my current run around Ch 14. C Dieck still hasn't happened (lol 60 turns for C). I found her supports hampered by the fact that she can often only build with one of Dieck/Rutger on a turn since they're also trying to stay next to each other and such. As a result, I mainly just aimed for her Rutger support since Dieck is so fucking slow.

I meant Klein as her secondary option, not Dieck. 40 +3 and Thunder x Ice is a great defensive support. Clarine would A Rutger only because Rutger wants the extra 5 crit and 5 avo.

I never go for the triangle anymore because it's inefficient and other units want those supports.

It sounds like Roy is only decisively beating Ward for about half the game (similar to Clarine vs Ellen/Saul), and yet they're only one tier apart, so that would reinforce my point.

It would reinforce my point as well. Saul should only be a tier at most under Clarine, but Saul pretty much thrashes Ellen offensively (not to mention winning defensively until he gets instablicked), so that's another tier gap between her and Saul.

Edited November 22, 2009 by dondon151