Efficiency Tier List?

[Dat Nick]

EDT: uh nevermind

Weird, I could swear Miredy was below Echidna/Percy [i remember Echidna top of High]

Edited October 19, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Question, what kind of supports are being considered as viable?

[grandjackal]

Vergil, that is the question at hand. Athena and Dondon have brought to my attention that 1+1 is actually rather questionable in this game. Dondon can go into details if you wish, he seems to know first hand. Yes, this DOES bring Echidna into question, but we'll get to that when we get to that.

Red Fox, I should probably clarify. With only a B, he is Lance with Allen's A. However, this comes with problems that might show that that lone could make him not top tier. To have avoid later when lances show up, he might want the lancereaver, which has far less crit than a killer, meaning we just basically cut Rutger's offense in half in the name of keeping him alive.

-Lance has access to 3 weapon types, and thus the WT control. Rutger is stuck with one, and he's stuck at a time when it's never at an advantage after the isles. This basically means without WTA, he's gonna be hittable.

-Can avoid counters with a ranged weapon.

-Lance's supports are far more garunteed. Rutger is an option for Deick, but Deick has better options (affinity-wise) that come sooner, and are faster.

-Even with A Clarine, that's 10 avoid and crit he's missing. Then the question of when it kicks in is brought up. It could be in the span of the A kicking in around chapter 16, which basically is the Sacae/Ilian gate. If we're going to Sacae, I would rather give the A to Klein. It's not like Clarine cares, or perhaps Lance gets a C with her if he were the BB in the cav+Roy triangle. The fact that Rutger goes from necessary to optional is a pretty noticeable blow on his performance.

Speaking of supports, Don has brought to my attention that Fa and Igrene could probably have a B by Sacae for +2 Def, 10 hit, 6 crit and 1 ATK. Fa I can see has a base defense of 17, meaning your average nomad only does 1 damage to her supportless, outright immune to them just with a C with Igrene. It's also a 30 mt weapon, meaning on average she does 23 damage to average nomads. She also has 152 base hit with her stone, meaning she has around 90 displayed on them, the B making it so she can't miss. This is actually deadly even to the Nomad Troopers. Then factor in that Igrene has things like Killers and the Brave bow.

Wow, Fa is actually pretty beastly in Sacae. Even a nomad trooper with his strongest weapon can't ORKO her supportless. With a B with Igrene, the best they can hope to do is 10 damage, basically meaning you HAVE to have nomads gang up on her with their strongest weapon. Otherwise they're 3RKOing with 2x2 damage. On top of that, strongest and most accurate chip damage one could ask for outside of a swordmaster.

Does the dragonstone have slayer effectiveness on Wyverns? If It does, I think both Igrene AND Fa could stand to rise quite a bit. 30 Dragonstones sounds like little, but do understand that she isn't doubling. It will last a while. Pity she can't counter range, but in Sacae some struggle to do that accurately anyways.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Vergil, that is the question at hand. Athena and Dondon have brought to my attention that 1+1 is actually rather questionable in this game. Dondon can go into details if you wish, he seems to know first hand. Yes, this DOES bring Echidna into question, but we'll get to that when we get to that.

Oh that isn't necessary, at least to me. I agree that such supports are questionable, the support system in this game sucks because of what you have to do to get them, often having to nuke a unit's turn or play inefficiently (partial reason to my earlier "not if you're playing efficiently" comment) which I said back when Echidna was moving up. Let me know when there's no idiot thinking that Echidna's supports are viable.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Vergil

[grandjackal]

Vergil, that is the question at hand. Athena and Dondon have brought to my attention that 1+1 is actually rather questionable in this game. Dondon can go into details if you wish, he seems to know first hand. Yes, this DOES bring Echidna into question, but we'll get to that when we get to that.

Oh that isn't necessary, at least to me. I agree that such supports are questionable, the support system in this game sucks because of what you have to do to get them, often having to nuke a unit's turn or play inefficiently (partial reason to my earlier "not if you're playing efficiently" comment) which I said back when Echidna was moving up. Let me know when there's no idiot thinking that Echidna's supports are viable.

Well immediately I can tell you none of hers is viable. Echidna is going supportless, which is BIG trouble for Gonzo, who was assumed a B with her. Now HE is supportless as well. 2 Def, 6 hit, 6 crit, 10 avoid just went out the window. His only options are Lillina with her 30+2 (15, 30, 40), and Garret with his 20+1 (40, 60).

This also throws DeickxClarine out the window, so now Klein is that much more valuable a unit to her.

Basically, should a fast support factor in to your utility now? If so, Fa and Igrene are looking pretty mighty in Sacae...Might actually have an impact on Sophia as well.

[Florete]

Red Fox, I should probably clarify. With only a B, he is Lance with Allen's A. However, this comes with problems that might show that that lone could make him not top tier. To have avoid later when lances show up, he might want the lancereaver, which has far less crit than a killer, meaning we just basically cut Rutger's offense in half in the name of keeping him alive.

If he's just killing anyway, what's the big deal? I can check numbers, but I don't recall him having any serious dodging issues by Ch. 21 (where supports can definitely be finished) anyway, even at WTD.

-Lance has access to 3 weapon types, and thus the WT control. Rutger is stuck with one, and he's stuck at a time when it's never at an advantage after the isles. This basically means without WTA, he's gonna be hittable.

WTA is not automatically an advantage. If Rutger can still 3HKO while Lance ORKOs (which probably isn't even as often), they tie player phase no matter what weapon the enemy wields. Lance wins enemy phase most of the time, but that's why he's higher. And who cares if he's "hittable?" Everyone is. Give me a break. And saying it's never at an advantage after the isles is clearly a lie. You want to tell me no enemies with Axes appear after a certain chapter?

-Can avoid counters with a ranged weapon.

Can avoid counters with a crit. Come on, I've said this before.

-Lance's supports are far more garunteed. Rutger is an option for Deick, but Deick has better options (affinity-wise) that come sooner, and are faster.

Did you even read my last post? I covered this. Try countering that first.

It could be in the span of the A kicking in around chapter 16, which basically is the Sacae/Ilian gate. If we're going to Sacae, I would rather give the A to Klein. It's not like Clarine cares, or perhaps Lance gets a C with her if he were the BB in the cav+Roy triangle. The fact that Rutger goes from necessary to optional is a pretty noticeable blow on his performance.

Last time I got the A around Ch 12, not 16. In any case, if we're going to Sacae, I'd still want Rutger with it, and you still haven't answered this question:

What sounds like a better idea: Having a Sniper with +1 Def and +5 avoid, or a Swordmaster with +5 avoid and +5 crit?

It's arguable in Sacae, but against the fast nomads, I want my reliable Player phase killer as reliable as possible.

Also, why the hell would Lance end up with B Alan? I've already explained why I don't think Roy being a part of the triangle is all that viable (Why else would Clarine even be brought up otherwise?), why the hell would you gimp the Cavs in such a way?

Besides, most of your post was proving why Lance > Rutger, which does nothing to lower him from Top tier anyway considering Lance is above him in Top and I'm not trying to argue Rutger > Lance anyway.

[Dat Nick]

Echidna is going supportless,

Lalam

Also Gonzo doesn't really care about those bonuses he lost. He needs hit, he has plenty of durability/crit.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

If he's just killing anyway, what's the big deal? I can check numbers, but I don't recall him having any serious dodging issues by Ch. 21 (where supports can definitely be finished) anyway, even at WTD.

Rutger at 20/10 has 63 avoid, +10 if we went Sacae, +15 if we went Ilia. Wyvern Lords with silver tend to have around 113 hit. So that's 40-35 hit displayed on Rutger, +10 on the WTD. So, that's 50-45 displayed. So to give him reliable avoid, we basically have to park him on a forest and keep his supports around. That's lagging 2 people back, one being a mobile healer. He suffers pretty bad without a second support, and the fact that his only other viable support now finds Rutger optional spells trouble for him. Even worse, Rutger might be Deick's worst option due to affinity bonuses. Deick would rather have Anima, Wind and Darkness B is not that big a difference.

WTA is not automatically an advantage. If Rutger can still 3HKO while Lance ORKOs (which probably isn't even as often), they tie player phase no matter what weapon the enemy wields. Lance wins enemy phase most of the time, but that's why he's higher. And who cares if he's "hittable?" Everyone is. Give me a break. And saying it's never at an advantage after the isles is clearly a lie. You want to tell me no enemies with Axes appear after a certain chapter?

Lance with A Allen has similar avoid to what was shown above, except now he has +10 from WTA as well. With his axes, he can reduce them to 30 hit. Yes, this is without Roy. If I brought Roy in with the B, that's 20 hit. FAR more reliable. Now Rutger needs basically 2 supports where Lance would only need 1. I'm starting to see a tier difference rather than gap.

Can avoid counters with a crit. Come on, I've said this before.

So percent chance vs always, hmmm...

Then factor in able to counter ranged enemies, something Rutger can never do well.

Also, what weapon are you using for him by then? Sure as hell better be something with kick. To one shot these things with a crit, you need some nasty might. Paladins have 56 HP, 13 Def. Rutger at 20/10 has 18 Str. Silver blade has 14 mt, so that's 32-13-1=18 damage. 54 damage on a crit, off by 2.

So you seem to be suggesting to use the Durandal on paladins.

Did you even read my last post? I covered this. Try countering that first.

You said he was an option for Deick, which is true. Being an option<Being garunteed.

Last time I got the A around Ch 12, not 16.

Dondon I'm sure will find this rather funny, so if he ever comes in, I'll let him respond to this, as he has thoughts on this subject that agree with me.

In any case, if we're going to Sacae, I'd still want Rutger with it, and you still haven't answered this question:

What sounds like a better idea: Having a Sniper with +1 Def and +5 avoid, or a Swordmaster with +5 avoid and +5 crit?

It's arguable in Sacae, but against the fast nomads, I want my reliable Player phase killer as reliable as possible.

For Sacae, it's far less arguable. 2 people countering the enemy phase>1 person doing so. The more Klein can just get in there the better, thus he puts the A to better use because he's doing more.

Also, why the hell would Lance end up with B Alan? I've already explained why I don't think Roy being a part of the triangle is all that viable (Why else would Clarine even be brought up otherwise?), why the hell would you gimp the Cavs in such a way?

How did I gimp them? Most of the time, they're transporting Roy anyways, why wouldn't he be around? Clarine's got a horsie, chances are she's around too. Lance getting at least a C wouldn't hurt. In exchange, Allen gets a much better A. I fail to see the problem.

Besides, most of your post was proving why Lance > Rutger, which does nothing to lower him from Top tier anyway considering Lance is above him in Top and I'm not trying to argue Rutger > Lance anyway.

The point is that he's NOTICEABLY worse than Lance, not just slightly. I'm trying to show there is a tier difference, and there is.

Echidna is going supportless,

Lalam

Also Gonzo doesn't really care about those bonuses he lost. He needs hit, he has plenty of durability/crit.

Yes, let's not dance what is just about the best combat unit we have on our team when she joins. Brilliant!

True on Gonzo I suppose, but he'd still love boosts, ya know...Lillina's the only real option he has.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Florete]

Rutger at 20/10 has 63 avoid, +10 if we went Sacae, +15 if we went Ilia. Wyvern Lords with silver tend to have around 113 hit. So that's 40-35 hit displayed on Rutger, +10 on the WTD. So, that's 50-45 displayed. So to give him reliable avoid, we basically have to park him on a forest and keep his supports around. That's lagging 2 people back, one being a mobile healer. He suffers pretty bad without a second support, and the fact that his only other viable support now finds Rutger optional spells trouble for him. Even worse, Rutger might be Deick's worst option due to affinity bonuses. Deick would rather have Anima, Wind and Darkness B is not that big a difference.

I'll let some of the next points cover this, as it's mainly a support issue.

Lance with A Allen has similar avoid to what was shown above, except now he has +10 from WTA as well. With his axes, he can reduce them to 30 hit. Yes, this is without Roy. If I brought Roy in with the B, that's 20 hit. FAR more reliable. Now Rutger needs basically 2 supports where Lance would only need 1. I'm starting to see a tier difference rather than gap.

(It's a link)

Bob: I have WTA on this guy.

Doug: I kill this guy anyway despite having WTD.

Advantage: Neither. Unless Bob doesn't ORKO, then it's Doug.

So percent chance vs always, hmmm...

Remember the crit chances I showed before? ~85% crit is pretty damn reliable, probably higher than most units regular hit chance.

Then factor in able to counter ranged enemies, something Rutger can never do well.

Part of better enemy phase offense, aka recycled argument.

Also, what weapon are you using for him by then? Sure as hell better be something with kick. To one shot these things with a crit, you need some nasty might. Paladins have 56 HP, 13 Def. Rutger at 20/10 has 18 Str. Silver blade has 14 mt, so that's 32-13-1=18 damage. 54 damage on a crit, off by 2.

Hey wow, Rutger isn't killing this guy. Oh wait, neither is Lance! Even at 20/10 with full +atk supports (not always likely) and a Killer Axe he only has 35 atk for double 22's. Both need to land a crit to kill but Rutger has a higher chance of doing so.

Never mind that this is only one type of enemy.

You said he was an option for Deick, which is true. Being an option<Being garunteed.

How about you read my post then? With this response you're making me 95% sure you didn't read it at all. Or, if that's your only counter, you'd damn well better assume Rutger can get B Dieck until you come up with a real counter.

Dondon I'm sure will find this rather funny, so if he ever comes in, I'll let him respond to this, as he has thoughts on this subject that agree with me.

Until then, your argument is non-existant.

For Sacae, it's far less arguable. 2 people countering the enemy phase>1 person doing so. The more Klein can just get in there the better, thus he puts the A to better use because he's doing more.

Guess what? Klein can still counter with just B Clarine! Who'd have thought of it? +1 Def isn't likely to change a whole lot. And what if Tate is in play? He prefers an A with her anyway.

How did I gimp them? Most of the time, they're transporting Roy anyways, why wouldn't he be around? Clarine's got a horsie, chances are she's around too. Lance getting at least a C wouldn't hurt. In exchange, Allen gets a much better A. I fail to see the problem.

They can't always transport Roy, especially since they're like your best enemy phase combat units. Sometimes it is simply inefficient to do so and this hurts both the building and actual use of the support. Alan does not get a better A. He gets full atk and avoid anyway, but with Lance he has a partner that's always near him rather than sometimes near him.

The point is that he's NOTICEABLY worse than Lance, not just slightly. I'm trying to show there is a tier difference, and there is.

There is not. Being noticeable worse is simply saying it's easy to see Lance > Rutger. There is not a wide gap, however. A clear gap does not mean it is big.

[dondon151]

Remember the crit chances I showed before? ~85% crit is pretty damn reliable, probably higher than most units regular hit chance.

Rutger with A or B Clarine has anywhere from 75-80 crit after factoring in enemy luck. On stuff he 3HKOs, that's still a 20-25% chance of the enemy counter. On stuff he doesn't 3HKO, he's eating a counter anyway.

15/5 Rutger at chapter 16x has 15.25 str, so 24.25 atk with a Killing Edge (supports don't give him atk). He won't OHKO 47 HP/12 def Silver Lance paladins with a crit (those are lower end on HP). In fact, he generally won't ORKO them unless he crits twice. He is also very very borderline on the Steel Lance cavs, because the highest end one with 40 HP/10 def can actually survive a crit from 23 atk. I suppose I can accept that 75-80 crit is reliable, but don't pretend that Rutger is never eating a counter.

(By the way if you're going to scream "sandbag" at 15/5 Rutger, he has no reason to not promote as soon as you get the second Hero Crest, because he's capped skl and spd by 15/0 and he wants 30 innate crit more than .3 str per level.)

Hey wow, Rutger isn't killing this guy. Oh wait, neither is Lance! Even at 20/10 with full +atk supports (not always likely) and a Killer Axe he only has 35 atk for double 22's. Both need to land a crit to kill but Rutger has a higher chance of doing so.

Lance can use the Halberd or the Horseslayer. Another disadvantage of being locked to swords.

How about you read my post then? With this response you're making me 95% sure you didn't read it at all. Or, if that's your only counter, you'd damn well better assume Rutger can get B Dieck until you come up with a real counter.

Aside from the fact that Lot and Thany are better affinities for Dieck and take half as long as Rutger, plus they join 2 and a half chapters earlier, you're severely underestimating how long 110 turns to B takes. For me, that's about equivalent to the total number of turns that I took to complete chapters 5 through 12x inclusive. Assuming that the pair are adjacent 50% of the time (according to Mekkah in a FE7 discussion, 40% of turns adjacent is a generous estimate), we can add 10 more chapters onto that for a B support in a reasonable timeframe. So I guess Dieck can have his B Rutger by chapter 20, or he can have B Thany at about the same time that he gets C Rutger. This doesn't include the fact that on large chapters, Dieck won't have a whole lot of turns available to be adjacent to Rutger because units that are being rescued can only gain support points with their rescuer.

If you're going to complain that I complete chapters too quickly, then we can add some extra turns in there and reduce the end-of-turn adjacent percentage to 40%. My point still stands either way.

Oh, and I guess that during the timeframe when Dieck is promoted and Rutger isn't, it's not totally favorable to keep Rutger adjacent to Dieck. This is because Dieck can counter ranged enemies but Rutger cannot, and unless they are positioned perfectly, Rutger would be responsible for wasting Dieck's enemy phases.

Guess what? Klein can still counter with just B Clarine! Who'd have thought of it? +1 Def isn't likely to change a whole lot. And what if Tate is in play? He prefers an A with her anyway.

Well... Tate has to compete for the Delphi Shield, and if we're already in Sacae, she might not have been used. But I find all this argument about A and B supports superfluous; it's not like 1 level really matters a great deal, and that 1 level is more beneficial on Rutger anyway...

Edited October 19, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

(It's a link)

Bob: I have WTA on this guy.

Doug: I kill this guy anyway despite having WTD.

Advantage: Neither. Unless Bob doesn't ORKO, then it's Doug.

Turns out Doug can't kill.

Remember the crit chances I showed before? ~85% crit is pretty damn reliable, probably higher than most units regular hit chance.

His mt is the problem, he's struggling to kill with a crit on the first shot, meaning he will eat a counter. Lance will be able to dodge the counter, Rutger might not be so lucky.

Also, that's with a killing edge, which is frankly incredibly stupid at this point. 25 mt is doing 12-1 damage to paladins, which is a total of 33 damage on the crit. OR, I could have Lance and not have to worry on landing a double crit with mah horseslayer.

Hey wow, Rutger isn't killing this guy. Oh wait, neither is Lance! Even at 20/10 with full +atk supports (not always likely) and a Killer Axe he only has 35 atk for double 22's. Both need to land a crit to kill but Rutger has a higher chance of doing so.

Never mind that this is only one type of enemy.

Lance: *walks out of store with new Horseslayer*

Oh wait, yes he can! Lance and Rutger have similar strength, slayer mt is 11x3, so Lance is packing a whopping 51 mt with it supportless. With Roy and Allen, that's 56. I'd have a hard time imagining that this doesn't OHKO basic cavs.

Oh you're right, they aren't the only enemy on the map! There are wyvern lords too. He's doing a grand total of 11 damage to them. Well, guess a Killer edge is out o the question, this almost fails to do half their HP in damage. With this at this point, he is pulling 30+13+10 or 15=53-58. If Gonzales can be spat on for missing...

Then you might be saying wyverns, of which he needs silver blades to do that "avoid the counter" nonsense, as he's doing 9 damage to them with a killer edge, and a crit would only do 36, which is HP basic cavs had ages ago. Lance with a wyrmslayer could do what Rutger was doing in avoid, except Roy would negate the WTD. This would mean even a wyvern lord would have only 30-35 hit on Lance with a wyrmslayer. Avoiding the counter with a crit is nice, but having a 63 chance displayed of avoiding it>having a 53-58 chance.

How about you read my post then? With this response you're making me 95% sure you didn't read it at all. Or, if that's your only counter, you'd damn well better assume Rutger can get B Dieck until you come up with a real counter.

Thany and Lott are better for Deick, and they are able to turn out fine. They are probably just as dependent, but in turn they are more versatile in the end and come sooner, along with being faster. Neither start as good as Rutger, but that doesn't mean they automatically don't deserve the support less.

Until then, your argument is non-existant.

15 turns a chapter was the average thought beforehand. 9-12, that's 4 chapters. 1+1 speed, that's a C. So even by what is currently normal standard, what you said is impossible. Well, it is with Fir.

As for Clarine, it is possible, but that would mean you had them glued together. Do you not notice that Clarine has better shit to do than sit back and babysit Rutger all day? There are cavs moving to the front, and she's the only one that can keep up.

Guess what? Klein can still counter with just B Clarine! Who'd have thought of it? +1 Def isn't likely to change a whole lot. And what if Tate is in play? He prefers an A with her anyway.

Well lessee...

Average Sacae Nomad

HP: 35

Attack: 18

Hit: 116

Crit: 18

Attack Speed: 19

Avoid: 46

Crit Evade: 9

Defense: 7

Resistance: 5

Base Klein has 15 Str, Brave bow is 10 mt. 25-7=18x2=36>35. Wow, he can kill them at base on the counter? Obviously by then, he won't be base. Let's check out level 6.

10 Def, 35 HP, getting doubled. 8x2 damage. 3RKO. +3 from her fastest support Clarine, that's reduced to 5x2. 4RKO. So, 3 dead nomads on one enemy phase. Sounds a lot better than the one per player phase with Ruty.

Hey, good point! Bring in Tate (guess she's gonna need the delphi), now that's +5. 3x2 damage, a 6RKO. 5 dead nomads on enemy phase. Klein's on the fucking warpath! But all this means is what does Clarine want?

Clarine Lance C takes 59 turns, to get Rutger and Clarine to B takes 55. Why wait for them to A? Besides, don't you think this sort of helps Clarine function better? She goes with the cavs, and a cav actually gives her an initial boost till the foot soldiers catch up. The safer she is while we all move forward, the better. This allows Roy to have +1 ATK, 5 avoid, crit and hit he normally wouldn't have gotten, and since you seem so melodramatic about WORSE boosts (just 5 crit and avoid) under the same situations...

They can't always transport Roy, especially since they're like your best enemy phase combat units. Sometimes it is simply inefficient to do so and this hurts both the building and actual use of the support. Alan does not get a better A. He gets full atk and avoid anyway, but with Lance he has a partner that's always near him rather than sometimes near him.

Clarine can, she has nothing better to do on enemy phase. 3 people defending her, 1 giving her a boost of which she makes stronger as well? I fail to see the problem.

There is not. Being noticeable worse is simply saying it's easy to see Lance > Rutger. There is not a wide gap, however. A clear gap does not mean it is big.

Allen's mount and support function helps speed through the chapter faster than on foot Rutger, same conditions basically as Lance. Deick's support functions, early promotion can make him the best combat unit in hte game save the move difference of him and the cavs. We went over Clarine.

Rutger's a great swordmaster with his supports around, except now his supports are questionable, as is his ability to "avoid the counter with a crit on player phase".

EDIT: Actually, I forgot to take enemy Luck into account for Rutger's critical chance. Yeah, Lance's ability to avoid naturally is quite noticeably higher than Rutger's crit-kill on the first strike chances. Enemy luck ranges from 8-12 normally.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Dat Nick]

Echidna way down then? She now has serious durability issues.

[dondon151]

Echidna has always had durability issues.

Also why is Marcus in high tier lol

Edited October 19, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Echidna way down then? She now has serious durability issues.

Sure, how does below Lot sound?

It does bring up a couple questions though.

-Bartre has a psychotically fast support with Fir in the form of a 40+3 (7, 20, 28). Fir's sort of bogged for good supports...

-Igrene and Fa are deceptively good in Sacae. Klein might be better with Tate, but Tate is competition for the Delphi shield. On the other hand, Fa is seriously packing some accurate heat, and even at base nomads struggle to even HURT HER. A mere C (30+3, 10, 20, 27), 3 chapters they both have, a B by Sacae sounds reasonable. Nomads can't hurt Fa, troopers do 0-3x2 damage (0 from their bows, 3 from steel sword of which she counters). 3x2 is a 3RKO for base Fa. Igrene can do basically what Klein can (less strength made up by the +1 from Fa, similar durability parameters).

-All the Ostians have lightspeed supports, save OJ who still has decently paced ones. However, I won't speak more on the issue, lest I get whipped for bringing up armors again.

Also, Marcus is in high because up until Roy promotes, Marcus is generally better. He might not give as good a bonus to the cavs, but he also keeps up with them easier. Basically he can fill Roy's shoes when he can. By the time Roy's promotion problem hits, Marcus is feeling the bite too, but Marcus has a huge weapon selection to chose from. Slayers,reavers, ranged weapons...This on top of move.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[dondon151]

Sure, how does below Lot sound?

No. Echidna beats Lot in offense for ever and ever. You can entitle her to a Dragonshield or Angelic Robe in these comparisons because Lot requires a promotion item. Echidna shouldn't be below Chad, not below dancers depending on how useful we think they are, and pretty much definitely not below Marcus. But Marcus needs to drop to upper mid anyway.

-Bartre has a psychotically fast support with Fir in the form of a 40+3 (7, 20, 28). Fir's sort of bogged for good supports...

Crt and avo are good, except Bartre's support don't solve his AS problems, so I can't see this helping him at all, and I'm pretty sure he's generally assumed to support Fir anyway.

-Igrene and Fa are deceptively good in Sacae. Klein might be better with Tate, but Tate is competition for the Delphi shield. On the other hand, Fa is seriously packing some accurate heat, and even at base nomads struggle to even HURT HER. A mere C (30+3, 10, 20, 27), 3 chapters they both have, a B by Sacae sounds reasonable. Nomads can't hurt Fa, troopers do 0-3x2 damage (0 from their bows, 3 from steel sword of which she counters). 3x2 is a 3RKO for base Fa. Igrene can do basically what Klein can (less strength made up by the +1 from Fa, similar durability parameters).

Fa can't counter. I personally think Igrene should be out of low (considering that Klein is in upper mid...), and I guess I can really get more in depth on that after going through the Sacae maps.

Also, Marcus is in high because up until Roy promotes, Marcus is generally better. He might not give as good a bonus to the cavs, but he also keeps up with them easier. Basically he can fill Roy's shoes when he can. By the time Roy's promotion problem hits, Marcus is feeling the bite too, but Marcus has a huge weapon selection to chose from. Slayers,reavers, ranged weapons...This on top of move.

OK, this only tells me why Marcus > Roy, and Roy has dropped to near the bottom of upper mid. Once the enemies start getting more than like 7 AS, Marcus stops doubling forever. I can go on and on about how great it is to have a horse, but when you're like 3RKOing cavs and mercs in chapter 13x with a Silver Lance, that's bad (obviously switch to Halberd or Horseslayer on cavs but this is just for demonstrative purposes). And that Silver Lance doesn't last forever. You probably used some of it in the earlier chapters against mercs and bosses, and then you got another one in chapter 6, but you had to share that with Zealot. Silvers aren't buyable until chapter 17 on Sacae route and chapter 20 on Ilia route (by the way, Marcus really sucks in Sacae).

Edited October 19, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

but don't pretend that Rutger is never eating a counter.

I never did, just that he isn't taking them as often as some might think.

Lance can use the Halberd or the Horseslayer. Another disadvantage of being locked to swords.

They aren't buyable until 21, and from what I can see, are never available before that. So they'll be useful for what, 2 maps? I don't even recall there being loads of Paladins in the remaining maps.

This also completely ignores the Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer, which, although limited, are at least available long before then.

Ah wait, the site listed it as Knightslayer, that's why I missed it in Ch 7. In any case, that's 16 uses from 7 to 21. Not a whole lot, especially considering there are other candidates (Because I know that will be used against Rutger here).

Aside from the fact that Lot and Thany are better affinities for Dieck and take half as long as Rutger, plus they join 2 and a half chapters earlier, you're severely underestimating how long 110 turns to B takes.

And you also did not read my post. Here, I'll quote the important part:

And look at Dieck's other partners. All are at least two full tiers below Rutger. And Dieck can still go A with one of them since Rutger only wants B. You honestly gonna tell me it's likely that two of Wade, Lott, and Thany (leaving out Clarine because she's obviously full, and Klein because it's probably slower than Rutger anyway) will be in play and will need to support him? Wade is already unlikely to be in play, so that just leaves Thany and Lott, and Thany is only as high as she is because of flight and early promotion. Dieck support helps, but it's not the end of it for her. As for Lott, yeah, the support is cool and fast, but it isn't that much better either. He gets +1 atk and +2 Def from Lott in comparison to Rutger, and Rutger gives him +8 crit and Hit. I can't really say it's better, but it isn't a bad tradeoff at all. He still gets the same avoid as well.

Although I made slight mistake. In choosing between B Rutger or Lott, the difference is only 1 Def and atk vs 5 crit and hit.

For me, that's about equivalent to the total number of turns that I took to complete chapters 5 through 12x inclusive. Assuming that the pair are adjacent 50% of the time (according to Mekkah in a FE7 discussion, 40% of turns adjacent is a generous estimate),

What? Seriously? I have my units next to each other at least 60% of the time with no problems. It might require me to adjust my strategy slightly, but it's well worth it in the end.

When fighting enemies it's understandable that they might not end up next to each other all the time. But what if there's only one enemy? One kills, the other stands next to him. What if they just need to mvoe forward? No reason not to have them next to each other. I don't see why people have such a hard time building supports in this game. Oh, and FE7 has a lot more enemies to deal with (and weaker ones at that) than this game as well as smaller maps, making support building more difficult.

If you're going to complain that I complete chapters too quickly, then we can add some extra turns in there and reduce the end-of-turn adjacent percentage to 40%. My point still stands either way.

How would that work? Slower, so suddenly they can't be next to each other as much? I don't see how that makes any sense.

Well... Tate has to compete for the Delphi Shield, and if we're already in Sacae, she might not have been used.

It just requires Shin as well and no Thany, which I can't see is all that unlikely considering the tier positions. She only competes with Miledy for the Delphi Shield, who probably doesn't need it as much, or if you keep her back out of enemy range, she won't need it all but will be locked to player phase unless it's safe.

Turns out Doug can't kill.

Can I just call you stupid and get on with my life? Your habit of not reading the text is getting really goddamned annoying.

Bob: I have WTA on this guy.

Doug: I kill this guy anyway despite having WTD.

His mt is the problem, he's struggling to kill with a crit on the first shot, meaning he will eat a counter. Lance will be able to dodge the counter, Rutger might not be so lucky.

Also, that's with a killing edge, which is frankly incredibly stupid at this point. 25 mt is doing 12-1 damage to paladins, which is a total of 33 damage on the crit. OR, I could have Lance and not have to worry on landing a double crit with mah horseslayer.

Paladins are not the only enemies. And what Horseslayer?

Lance with a wyrmslayer could do what Rutger was doing in avoid,

Wtf? Lance gets the Wyrmslayer but not Rutger?

Thany and Lott are better for Deick, and they are able to turn out fine.

Lollmaoroflcopter. The reason Thany is so high is because of an early promotion, and her promoted averages were already fairly bland to begin with.

10 Def, 35 HP, getting doubled. 8x2 damage. 3RKO. +3 from her fastest support Clarine, that's reduced to 5x2. 4RKO. So, 3 dead nomads on one enemy phase. Sounds a lot better than the one per player phase with Ruty.

Nice leaving out the other option: B Clarine. He needs either 2 HP or 1 more Def to get the same result with that, and I could see him a bit higher than 6 by now. Oh, and you completely ignored avoid. Klein with just B Clarine will have 55 avoid, and 118 - 55 = 63. Chance to die in 6 hits: ~15%. Add in anything, like terrain or another support like Percival, and that drops.

Or if Tate is in play, have fun. There's his A, no worries.

Clarine Lance C takes 59 turns, to get Rutger and Clarine to B takes 55. Why wait for them to A? Besides, don't you think this sort of helps Clarine function better? She goes with the cavs, and a cav actually gives her an initial boost till the foot soldiers catch up. The safer she is while we all move forward, the better. This allows Roy to have +1 ATK, 5 avoid, crit and hit he normally wouldn't have gotten, and since you seem so melodramatic about WORSE boosts (just 5 crit and avoid) under the same situations...

Do you know what you're doing? You're formulating the entire team so Rutger won't get his supports, aka sandbagging. It's like what people were trying to do to Mist in FE9. You're assuming specific and often inferior support combinations for a plethora of other units just so Rutger won't get his desired support. How can you assume AlanxRoy is superior to LancexAlan? Only because it means you can sandbag Rutger by having Clarine support Lance instead of him. How can you assume both Thany and Lott are in play despite being lower on the tier list? How can you assume Klein is so often in play despite being even lower? How can you assume Tate is never in play despite being just a bit lower?

Let's try this out. What if our team was Roy + the top 10 units in the game? That's Roy, Lance, Alan, Dieck, Clarine, Rutger, Miledy, Percival, Echidna, Chad, Lalum. Maybe ditch Chad for Gonzales.

This is awesome. RoyxAlanxLance, DieckxClarinexRutger, Miledy and Percival are cool supportless, EchidnaxLalumxmaybeGonzales. No problems. There is not much room for change there. Sure, those units can be swapped for others, but what's going to stop Echidna and Gonzales from being swapped for Klein and Tate? That would fit in pretty well. Or what if it was Shin and Thany? That would work fine as well. What if Miledy or Percival were also replaced? Maybe we want Lugh for another healer, or Saul, or maybe we went a different route and got Bartre and Elphin and so Fir is also in play supporting her dad.

You can't formulate a specific team around not getting a character his desired supports, it's sandbagging and irrational. Remember, the player is God. You likely plan your team before starting, and so you'll have all the support pairings figured first. The way you're trying to do things, you're assuming Roy, Lance, Alan, Dieck, Rutger, Clarine, Lott, Thany, Klein, and very specific support pairings that make me wonder why the played chose to put Rutger on the team at all, as well as a specific lack of Tate. That's already 8 units, so there isn't much room for Lalum/Elphin, Miledy, Percival, Echidna, Gonzales, another healer (2>1), etc., most of whom are better than a lot of that cast anyway.

Clarine can, she has nothing better to do on enemy phase. 3 people defending her, 1 giving her a boost of which she makes stronger as well? I fail to see the problem.

What if she heals? The fact that she can is cool, but she can't always.

It's funny, because over in FE7 I was arguing Priscilla > Serra partly for Rescuing, but here it seems that's working in fine.

Enemy luck ranges from 8-12 normally.

That was taken into account in my calculations anyway.

[dondon151]

I never did, just that he isn't taking them as often as some might think.

OK, but the fact stands that Rutger might take counters whereas Klein never takes a counter, unless it's Sacae where the roles are reversed.

They aren't buyable until 21, and from what I can see, are never available before that. So they'll be useful for what, 2 maps? I don't even recall there being loads of Paladins in the remaining maps.

This also completely ignores the Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer, which, although limited, are at least available long before then.

Ah wait, the site listed it as Knightslayer, that's why I missed it in Ch 7. In any case, that's 16 uses from 7 to 21. Not a whole lot, especially considering there are other candidates (Because I know that will be used against Rutger here).

Halberd? You have 34 uses of horse killing weapons. You've got cavs in chapter 4 and chapter 7, which will probably end up taking only about 8 uses of Halberd (it's a really shitty weapon to have equipped on enemy phase that early in the game). The next cav heavy map is 13, and the Horseslayer is available by then, so maybe 10 more uses total. Chapter 15 is like 2 uses on Raeth and 2 uses on generic cavs. So now you have 12 uses left on every paladin in the game up until chapter 21, as cavs can pretty much be ORKO'd or nearly ORKO'd with generic weapons, and if you really have to, they're good Hammerne candidates, behind braves and divine weapons.

The reason why competition is a more damaging argument against Rutger is that Lance and Allen have access to every weakness hitting weapon out there except for bows whereas Rutger only has the Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer. Every sword user would like the Wyrmslayer and Armorslayer. If another unit wants the Halberd, then Lance/Allen can still have the Horseslayer. If all Armorslayers are in use, then Lance/Allen can switch to a Hammer (these are actually buyable).

And you also did not read my post. Here, I'll quote the important part:

And look at Dieck's other partners. All are at least two full tiers below Rutger. And Dieck can still go A with one of them since Rutger only wants B. You honestly gonna tell me it's likely that two of Wade, Lott, and Thany (leaving out Clarine because she's obviously full, and Klein because it's probably slower than Rutger anyway) will be in play and will need to support him? Wade is already unlikely to be in play, so that just leaves Thany and Lott, and Thany is only as high as she is because of flight and early promotion. Dieck support helps, but it's not the end of it for her. As for Lott, yeah, the support is cool and fast, but it isn't that much better either. He gets +1 atk and +2 Def from Lott in comparison to Rutger, and Rutger gives him +8 crit and Hit. I can't really say it's better, but it isn't a bad tradeoff at all. He still gets the same avoid as well.

Although I made slight mistake. In choosing between B Rutger or Lott, the difference is only 1 Def and atk vs 5 crit and hit.

If Thany wants offense, she really needs her supports. If all 3 are in play, there is no chance that Rutger will get a Dieck support, which excludes that part of your argument and only leaves the conditional if one of the 3 aren't in play. Until Tate joins, Thany will almost always be in play. The reason behind this is that even if she replaces a far superior combat unit, whatever she does using her flying utility contributes to efficiency to a greater extent than just your nth combat unit. But wait! Thany is superior in combat when Tate joins, so unless the player is planning on using Tate, it is still likely that Thany is in play. That just leaves Lot. Lot is forced from chapter 2 to 6, so he gets his C support with Dieck sometime in chapter 7; essentially this support is free. That's already +1 def and +5 avo before Rutger even enters the picture. By the time Lot gets his B support with Dieck, Rutger would still be a few turns away from C, so the opportunity cost of Dieck choosing Rutger for B over Lot is +1 def and +5 avo for approximately... 6 chapters, +2 def, +1 atk, and +10 avo for about another chapter, and then +1 def, +1 atk, and +5 avo for however long it takes until they reach B. Now, I would say that Dieck is better off going with just C Lot in the short term (assuming that Lot is going to be ditched later) than B Rutger in the long term. If Lot will be ditched, then C Rutger is pretty much the only possible support level.

When fighting enemies it's understandable that they might not end up next to each other all the time. But what if there's only one enemy? One kills, the other stands next to him. What if they just need to mvoe forward? No reason not to have them next to each other. I don't see why people have such a hard time building supports in this game. Oh, and FE7 has a lot more enemies to deal with (and weaker ones at that) than this game as well as smaller maps, making support building more difficult.

If you just need to move forward, then do rescue-drop, which facilitates Dieck x Thany and Rutger x Clarine, but not really Dieck x Rutger.

How would that work? Slower, so suddenly they can't be next to each other as much? I don't see how that makes any sense.

I used 50% originally because it's easy to take turns and multiply them by 2, but my original benchmark was 40%.

[Florete]

Halberd? You have 34 uses of horse killing weapons. You've got cavs in chapter 4 and chapter 7, which will probably end up taking only about 8 uses of Halberd (it's a really shitty weapon to have equipped on enemy phase that early in the game). The next cav heavy map is 13, and the Horseslayer is available by then, so maybe 10 more uses total. Chapter 15 is like 2 uses on Raeth and 2 uses on generic cavs. So now you have 12 uses left on every paladin in the game up until chapter 21, as cavs can pretty much be ORKO'd or nearly ORKO'd with generic weapons, and if you really have to, they're good Hammerne candidates, behind braves and divine weapons.

Didn't see Halberd because it was listed as Pole Ax. That really needs to be fixed.

Anyway, with how early it comes, how are the cavs even using it? They're not promoted yet, and even when they do, they need to build a weapon rank first. By the time they get there it's probably gone (Horseslayer as well). And since there are only 3 Hammerne uses, I'm using it on Braves and Divines before effective weapons.

Until Tate joins, Thany will almost always be in play. The reason behind this is that even if she replaces a far superior combat unit, whatever she does using her flying utility contributes to efficiency to a greater extent than just your nth combat unit.

Okay. So when does she build a support with Dieck if that's how it goes?

But wait! Thany is superior in combat when Tate joins, so unless the player is planning on using Tate, it is still likely that Thany is in play.

That was the point. Isn't that how it always works?

That just leaves Lot. Lot is forced from chapter 2 to 6, so he gets his C support with Dieck sometime in chapter 7; essentially this support is free.

Unless you're ditching Lot after his slot is free, in which case the support never arrives.

That's already +1 def and +5 avo before Rutger even enters the picture.

What? You built that support in Ch 7 and Rutger shows in 4. Although, to be fair, I'd have probably gotten C between Dieck and Lot a bit sooner.

If Lot will be ditched, then C Rutger is pretty much the only possible support level.

I don't see how that's reasonable at all. If Lot will be ditched, the player will not support him with Dieck (assuming Dieck is used longterm), it makes no sense. Not only because it's a wasted support slot but also because it's wasted support points. It could actually get in the way of other supports as well, and seeing as this support will only be used for maybe a few maps, I can't see how that's worth it.

If you just need to move forward, then do rescue-drop, which facilitates Dieck x Thany and Rutger x Clarine, but not really Dieck x Rutger.

What if it's a map like (The one where you get Sue) and your party is split so you can't do Rescue-Drop so easily. Rescue-Drop is pretty awesome, I definitely know that, but it isn't always possible. Plus, at this point you have 5 mounted units, so that's only two chains and another one left Rescue'd. In fact, if the chains move Rutger and Dieck, it would probably be very easy to just drop them right next to each other.

I used 50% originally because it's easy to take turns and multiply them by 2, but my original benchmark was 40%.

I don't know why that's assumed. In this game especially, I always keep my units next to each other more than that. Like, if the map takes 15 turns, I'll probably have them next to each other for at least 10, or ~67%. If I really have to go out of my way to do it it might make me lose a turn now but will make later chapters faster, so it pays off in the end.

[Dat Nick]

Echidna has always had durability issues.

Well they're even worse now. 35 HP/8 def and less than stellar avo [her lck sucks] on top of slow def growth [Levels slow and only 15% def] is just ick.

No. Echidna beats Lot in offense for ever and ever.

And Lot beats Echidna in durability, forever and ever.

You can entitle her to a Dragonshield or Angelic Robe in these comparisons because Lot requires a promotion item.

uh no

Funds is not exactly a huge problem in FE6, this has been discussed. Furthermore Dragonshields are not buyable until C22 so she's not getting it for a while anyway.

But oh fine, I'll humor you. She can have a robe and a shield. Because guess what? Her durability still sucks compared to Lot.

20/12 Lot [because I'm getting more and more dubious of usually assumed levels. Also A Dick B Thany]

59 HP, 21 str, 19 AS, 22 def

12 Echidna:

50 HP, 16 str, 21 AS, 12 def

Factor in use of Bows [Oh hai Wyverns], taking less counters, and the con difference. Echidna is getting flatlined. Badly.

"but BB Echidna pwns him earlygame!"

Really?

Well, for one, Lot exists for 11 chapters that Echidna doesn't. Second...

16 Lot, B Dick B Thany:

39 HP, 11 str, 11 AS, 12 def

Obviously Echidna's offense [hit included] outweighs the durability win [Though it's still significant] but Lot has availability to counter this and he's winning from promotion onwards, due to Bows.

I certainly can't see a tier gap between them. Lot smokes Echidna MidLategame MUCH worse than she smokes him earlygame.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

Can I just call you stupid and get on with my life? Your habit of not reading the text is getting really goddamned annoying.

Bob: I have WTA on this guy.

Doug: I kill this guy anyway despite having WTD.

I meant instantly, as in not on the first strike which is the only way he can avoid a counter "reliably".

Paladins are not the only enemies. And what Horseslayer?

I discussed wyvern lords and paladins, and I could have sworn I brought up Wyvern riders. With a killer edge (the only way he's getting that 85% you keep throwing around), he's doing 9 damage a shot at 20/10. You honestly think the case is gonna be any better earlier? Besides, only way he's gonna pull it off is with a silver blade on wyvern knights. Not only did we just shave off 10 avoid due to it weighing him down that badly (13 weight, 8 con) which makes him even more vulnerable enemy phase, we just cut his crit by 30. His chances just diminished.

Wtf? Lance gets the Wyrmslayer but not Rutger?

Lance is more capable of dodging, so yes he does.

Dondon gave more reasons.

Lollmaoroflcopter. The reason Thany is so high is because of an early promotion, and her promoted averages were already fairly bland to begin with.

Her averages are perfectly fine, the reason she used to be lower was because of underestimation early on and measuring her on the isles without said promo. On average, she ends up the same, low Str, high speed and luck. Stats are a tad weaker, but generally little has changed of her aside from numbers.

Nice leaving out the other option: B Clarine. He needs either 2 HP or 1 more Def to get the same result with that, and I could see him a bit higher than 6 by now. Oh, and you completely ignored avoid. Klein with just B Clarine will have 55 avoid, and 118 - 55 = 63. Chance to die in 6 hits: ~15%. Add in anything, like terrain or another support like Percival, and that drops.

Or if Tate is in play, have fun. There's his A, no worries.

Clarine is faster, technically comes earlier. A makes the avoid to 58, which drops that number as well.

Did you just help my case?

Do you know what you're doing? You're formulating the entire team so Rutger won't get his supports, aka sandbagging. It's like what people were trying to do to Mist in FE9. You're assuming specific and often inferior support combinations for a plethora of other units just so Rutger won't get his desired support. How can you assume AlanxRoy is superior to LancexAlan? Only because it means you can sandbag Rutger by having Clarine support Lance instead of him. How can you assume both Thany and Lott are in play despite being lower on the tier list? How can you assume Klein is so often in play despite being even lower? How can you assume Tate is never in play despite being just a bit lower?

Maybe Rutger is overrated! Surprise! We were willing to have Rutger assumed a team under basically the same circumstances, and all these people I'm finding to be far more versatile than Rutger. When something better is found, it's natural that the weaker option more often than not is weeded out. It's turning out to be Rutger, thus why he might drop, thus why we're having this discussion in the first place. You can't just say "he's top, therefore your point is void", because he might not deserve to be in top in the first place.

I mean, please. Spare me. We always assume Roy triangles with Allen and Lance, because it's effective. Allen and Lance will always be near eachother, Roy needs protection and transportation, Allen and Lance supplies both needs while performing greatly. Deick could promote early and perform so damn well early on that he's just that noticeable. The fact he helps two people go from good to great is icing on hte cake that seals the deal, of which Rutger is not necessary, since he was once thought to be. Clarine has ways to become basically invincible while being an incredibly important mounted healer. This is the help from supports like Klein, Lance and Rutger. Rutger helps, but he is not exactly key.

Since Rutger is no longer key in helping the performance of two top tiers, a great part of his utility has greatly diminished, and now he has a a plethora of problems to deal with that can no longer be swept under the rug.

Let's try this out. What if our team was Roy + the top 10 units in the game? That's Roy, Lance, Alan, Dieck, Clarine, Rutger, Miledy, Percival, Echidna, Chad, Lalum. Maybe ditch Chad for Gonzales.

This is awesome. RoyxAlanxLance, DieckxClarinexRutger, Miledy and Percival are cool supportless, EchidnaxLalumxmaybeGonzales. No problems. There is not much room for change there. Sure, those units can be swapped for others, but what's going to stop Echidna and Gonzales from being swapped for Klein and Tate? That would fit in pretty well. Or what if it was Shin and Thany? That would work fine as well. What if Miledy or Percival were also replaced? Maybe we want Lugh for another healer, or Saul, or maybe we went a different route and got Bartre and Elphin and so Fir is also in play supporting her dad.

Wow, all these people are people Rutger doesn't help. On the other hand, the two he does "help" can get better help earlier, or are not dependent on him so much as to make him the cornerstone of all of top tier. Since Rutger only helped two people that don't want or care that badly for his help, and he helps no one else...

Don't know how Fir and Bartre entered the equation, as that's an entirely different discussion.

But yeah totally, Miledy, Percival, Lalum, Echidna and Gonzales all join the same time Rutger does, your point is totally valid. Lot and Thany are worse than empty slots of which they're forced to take anyways, so obviously we'll slow ourselves down to not use them in their forced chapters. Even then, I seem to have trouble finding people better until Echidna and Gonzales. Lessee, Roy is forced...

Lance

Allen

Marcus

Deick

Rutger

Clarine

...Hmmm, who's below them that's available at this time...

Lot, Thany

Oh, guess we will be using them! We've been using them a while, it would be stupid to not build supports with them. Even if you're not gonna use them forever for when better people show them, you can *gasp* kill them off! But obviously that's stupid, because it's all in the name of starting over from square 1 just to build a support with Rutger.

This is at a time when Rutger is not durable, he's not packing swordmaster crit (news flash, Roy and Deick can use the killing edge too), his supports aren't built up so it's not like he's a dodging machine. Chapter 5 isn't an excuse, because right after is 6 and 7, spear heavy places. Lot is more durable, Thany is probably more dodgy if we didn't sandbag them and give them supports (way to go, Rutger...), is Rutger REALLY that important?

You can't formulate a specific team around not getting a character his desired supports, it's sandbagging and irrational. Remember, the player is God. You likely plan your team before starting, and so you'll have all the support pairings figured first. The way you're trying to do things, you're assuming Roy, Lance, Alan, Dieck, Rutger, Clarine, Lott, Thany, Klein, and very specific support pairings that make me wonder why the played chose to put Rutger on the team at all, as well as a specific lack of Tate. That's already 8 units, so there isn't much room for Lalum/Elphin, Miledy, Percival, Echidna, Gonzales, another healer (2>1), etc., most of whom are better than a lot of that cast anyway.

I have no choice when no one else is around! Then factor some people get dropped (like Marcus), or that some people just start out better (you honestly think Klein doesn't start better or at least more important than someone like Fir early on?).

It's not so much I'm formulating the team that way, but rather the best team just happens to b that by the time Rutger's supports would become relevent. Others that can take his slot happen to be among them, so he goes from necessary to option. Outside of Clarine's B, he's not even the best option thanks to his affinity, or speed.

What if she heals? The fact that she can is cool, but she can't always.

It's funny, because over in FE7 I was arguing Priscilla > Serra partly for Rescuing, but here it seems that's working in fine.

Allen and Lance are THAT fragile? First strike, I already gotta break out the ubercharge? Maybe Clarine should top the list...

Also to Don, I can see Igrene in lower mid as well, just due to sniper performance in Sacae. Fa would be great help there too with the B they could pull off by then. However, how should we value Fa?

From what I can tell, a B with Igrene would render her invincible to nomads, so they won't even attack her. Troopers would only be doing 2x2 damage, a 3RKO, so they would probably opt to use their steel swords to do greater damage, but she can counter. Fa is also packing 30 mt off the bat just at base supportless, around 140 hit at base, making her one of the most accurate units on your team. With her huge chip damage, this is great. No one said she HAD to be used on dragons alone, especially with how durable she is here.

If we value this as good enough for Sacae, I could see Fa rising as well.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Narga_Rocks]

Can I just call you stupid and get on with my life? Your habit of not reading the text is getting really goddamned annoying.

Bob: I have WTA on this guy.

Doug: I kill this guy anyway despite having WTD.

I meant instantly, as in not on the first strike which is the only way he can avoid a counter "reliably".

I'm not completely certain, but I think she's treating Doug like an entirely fictional character. Sure, it's meant to highlight something about Rutger, but in this example Doug kills whatever. The point is there to highlight that WTD isn't instant fail.

Nice leaving out the other option: B Clarine. He needs either 2 HP or 1 more Def to get the same result with that, and I could see him a bit higher than 6 by now. Oh, and you completely ignored avoid. Klein with just B Clarine will have 55 avoid, and 118 - 55 = 63. Chance to die in 6 hits: ~15%. Add in anything, like terrain or another support like Percival, and that drops.

Or if Tate is in play, have fun. There's his A, no worries.

Clarine is faster, technically comes earlier. A makes the avoid to 58, which drops that number as well.

Did you just help my case?

How do you figure that? You were treating Klein like he had to have A Clarine and Rutger taking that away meant Klein lost Clarine completely. You didn't even give them so much as a C. How is it helping your case when she pokes a massive hole in it? And Tate is supposed to support Klein with an A there. So her point was:

Klein can have A Tate, B Clarine.

Rutger gets A Clarine + something.

How is this helping your case?

Oh, and Fir is a slow support and she shows up later than Dieck, but +mt, +avo, +crit is just what the doctor ordered for a swordmaster. Rutger won't miss out completely. And you never really addressed how she pointed out that you were once saying that Rutger is basically locked away from Fir ever getting him and suddenly the tune has changed. Anything to bring down an fe6 swordmaster, eh?

Do you know what you're doing? You're formulating the entire team so Rutger won't get his supports, aka sandbagging. It's like what people were trying to do to Mist in FE9. You're assuming specific and often inferior support combinations for a plethora of other units just so Rutger won't get his desired support. How can you assume AlanxRoy is superior to LancexAlan? Only because it means you can sandbag Rutger by having Clarine support Lance instead of him. How can you assume both Thany and Lott are in play despite being lower on the tier list? How can you assume Klein is so often in play despite being even lower? How can you assume Tate is never in play despite being just a bit lower?

Maybe Rutger is overrated! Surprise! We were willing to have Rutger assumed a team under basically the same circumstances, and all these people I'm finding to be far more versatile than Rutger. When something better is found, it's natural that the weaker option more often than not is weeded out. It's turning out to be Rutger, thus why he might drop, thus why we're having this discussion in the first place. You can't just say "he's top, therefore your point is void", because he might not deserve to be in top in the first place.

I mean, please. Spare me. We always assume Roy triangles with Allen and Lance, because it's effective. Allen and Lance will always be near eachother, Roy needs protection and transportation, Allen and Lance supplies both needs while performing greatly. Deick could promote early and perform so damn well early on that he's just that noticeable. The fact he helps two people go from good to great is icing on hte cake that seals the deal, of which Rutger is not necessary, since he was once thought to be. Clarine has ways to become basically invincible while being an incredibly important mounted healer. This is the help from supports like Klein, Lance and Rutger. Rutger helps, but he is not exactly key.

What? The tier list will assume that we've chosen to field Rutger. So find him some supports. The team should work around everyone getting a support, not everyone except the guy you are trying to sandbag. And are you seriously suggesting Klein > Rutger now? One of her points was, Rutger is higher than Klein, so he's more likely to be in play, or at the very least Klein may not be when Rutger is. So there is even less reason for Rutger to be without Clarine. Unless you are now suggesting that Klein will be in play more often than Rutger. And another point you glaze over is that Tate isn't even that much lower than Klein. If Rutger misses out on Clarine because of Klein, shouldn't Tate be in play often enough for Klein to support Tate a bunch? Reducing the need of an A with Clarine? Also, comparing Clarine x Rutger to Clarine x Klein, 25, 30, 40, vs. 7, 20, 27. 6 or 7 chapter difference. So to be the same speed they need 41 turns in 6/7 chapters, or 7/6 turns per chapter. Anything more than that and Rutger is faster with her.

Since Rutger is no longer key in helping the performance of two top tiers, a great part of his utility has greatly diminished, and now he has a a plethora of problems to deal with that can no longer be swept under the rug.

What, so his utility is making Clarine and Dieck better? What about what he does himself? And does she really want 1 point of defence over more crit?

Let's try this out. What if our team was Roy + the top 10 units in the game? That's Roy, Lance, Alan, Dieck, Clarine, Rutger, Miledy, Percival, Echidna, Chad, Lalum. Maybe ditch Chad for Gonzales.

This is awesome. RoyxAlanxLance, DieckxClarinexRutger, Miledy and Percival are cool supportless, EchidnaxLalumxmaybeGonzales. No problems. There is not much room for change there. Sure, those units can be swapped for others, but what's going to stop Echidna and Gonzales from being swapped for Klein and Tate? That would fit in pretty well. Or what if it was Shin and Thany? That would work fine as well. What if Miledy or Percival were also replaced? Maybe we want Lugh for another healer, or Saul, or maybe we went a different route and got Bartre and Elphin and so Fir is also in play supporting her dad.

Wow, all these people are people Rutger doesn't help. On the other hand, the two he does "help" can get better help earlier, or are not dependent on him so much as to make him the cornerstone of all of top tier. Since Rutger only helped two people that don't want or care that badly for his help, and he helps no one else...

What? It's a team where he's a supporter. Who else? The player has chosen not to use certain other units that you think are better for supports.

Don't know how Fir and Bartre entered the equation, as that's an entirely different discussion.

Like, the same way a bunch of other units did, options to replace some of the units illustrating that Rutger gets his supports just fine with multiple team setups?

But yeah totally, Miledy, Percival, Lalum, Echidna and Gonzales all join the same time Rutger does,

What does that have to do with anything? They are the team this theoretical player has chosen to use later on. So build supports for said team.

your point is totally valid. Lot and Thany are worse than empty slots of which they're forced to take anyways, so obviously we'll slow ourselves down to not use them in their forced chapters. Even then, I seem to have trouble finding people better until Echidna and Gonzales. Lessee, Roy is forced...

Lance

Allen

Marcus

Deick

Rutger

Clarine

...Hmmm, who's below them that's available at this time...

Lot, Thany

Oh, guess we will be using them! We've been using them a while, it would be stupid to not build supports with them. Even if you're not gonna use them forever for when better people show them, you can *gasp* kill them off! But obviously that's stupid, because it's all in the name of starting over from square 1 just to build a support with Rutger.

So, what happened to the guy on the RD tier list that kept complaining about being forced to only use high tiers and the units that aren't high tiers get dumped aside and got so upset about various things like that? Where did he go? Apparently he's dead and buried now because you've decided that certain units must be in play. So basically, you have a set team in the early game, and since they are there you must build supports, and when Rutger shows up he's a day late and a dollar short. He can't get a support since you gave it away for inferior bonuses because they show up earlier. So what, am I to assume that the tier list player then chooses Rutger anyway but gives him no support? Or is Rutger not allowed to be in play ever?

This is at a time when Rutger is not durable, he's not packing swordmaster crit (news flash, Roy and Deick can use the killing edge too), his supports aren't built up so it's not like he's a dodging machine. Chapter 5 isn't an excuse, because right after is 6 and 7, spear heavy places. Lot is more durable, Thany is probably more dodgy if we didn't sandbag them and give them supports (way to go, Rutger...), is Rutger REALLY that important?

So, since Rutger isn't the linchpin of the army he doesn't even deserve to be in play or get his support if he is?

You can't formulate a specific team around not getting a character his desired supports, it's sandbagging and irrational. Remember, the player is God. You likely plan your team before starting, and so you'll have all the support pairings figured first. The way you're trying to do things, you're assuming Roy, Lance, Alan, Dieck, Rutger, Clarine, Lott, Thany, Klein, and very specific support pairings that make me wonder why the played chose to put Rutger on the team at all, as well as a specific lack of Tate. That's already 8 units, so there isn't much room for Lalum/Elphin, Miledy, Percival, Echidna, Gonzales, another healer (2>1), etc., most of whom are better than a lot of that cast anyway.

I have no choice when no one else is around! Then factor some people get dropped (like Marcus), or that some people just start out better (you honestly think Klein doesn't start better or at least more important than someone like Fir early on?).

Long term, man, long term.

It's not so much I'm formulating the team that way, but rather the best team just happens to b that by the time Rutger's supports would become relevent. Others that can take his slot happen to be among them, so he goes from necessary to option. Outside of Clarine's B, he's not even the best option thanks to his affinity, or speed.

Well, there goes a bunch of units you argued up in RD. There are a bunch of "best team"s that don't involve Lethe. There are also best teams that involve Ed being dumped after 1-4, so the only point in raising him is to get him to survive a 26mt tiger in 1-4. No real point in robbing Micaiah of precious exp, considering we are stuck with her forever and you could actually, you know, make her useful? Her speed growth is low, but her stat is not beyond salvation. If you give her enough levels she's not doubled forever. If you don't, you limit your options with her. She can actually be quite useful, for example, in 4-E-3 if she's not one rounded by dragons. Useful elsewhere, too. Down goes Mak, down goes Lethe. Down goes Leo. Down goes just about everyone without forced chapters. Who cares if a guy is just optional. Everybody but the seizing Lord is optional, and aside from RD Ike you don't even have to train him. Well, PoR Ike in HM would be a good idea, otherwise it's just Nasir/Ena trying to take out the final boss' first incarnation. Haar in RD can easily be ignored. I could ignore Mia or Titania or the rest. I even did mostly ignore Titania in my HM playthrough, didn't deploy Gatrie in 3-11, only had him weaken and meatshield in 4-2/4-5 and dropped him. Titania didn't even get fielded in 4-4. Barely let Tibarn do anything in 4-5, only brought one royal to 4-E. Heck, I could ignore Reyson and be fine. Moving somebody down because they aren't mandatory is foolish.

1. Are they better than what is below them?

2. Is there a tier gap between a unit and the one beneath?

3. Is there a tier gap between a unit and the one above?

It doesn't really matter if you can stomp the game without the character.

What if she heals? The fact that she can is cool, but she can't always.

It's funny, because over in FE7 I was arguing Priscilla > Serra partly for Rescuing, but here it seems that's working in fine.

Allen and Lance are THAT fragile? First strike, I already gotta break out the ubercharge? Maybe Clarine should top the list...

What? Are Allen and Lance the only ones getting attacked now? So why were you trying to argue Dieck to the top of the list? Anyway, when did she say you are healing them on the first attack?

Edited October 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

Didn't see Halberd because it was listed as Pole Ax. That really needs to be fixed.

Anyway, with how early it comes, how are the cavs even using it? They're not promoted yet, and even when they do, they need to build a weapon rank first. By the time they get there it's probably gone (Horseslayer as well). And since there are only 3 Hammerne uses, I'm using it on Braves and Divines before effective weapons.

Halberd is D rank. Axe weapon ranks are generally not hard to build when you have your 2 range option immediately available upon promotion.

I still have 11 Horseslayer and 9 Halberd uses after 16x. 2 of them will probably be used on Arcard, and then Sacae basically has no cavs/pallies.

Okay. So when does she build a support with Dieck if that's how it goes?

Thany isn't always doing rescue operations (she needs to gain EXP somehow!), and if Thany is doing rescue operations, she gets support points for rescuing Dieck.

Unless you're ditching Lot after his slot is free, in which case the support never arrives.

Of course the support arrives. You don't have better options for chapter 7, and that's when the C starts.

What? You built that support in Ch 7 and Rutger shows in 4. Although, to be fair, I'd have probably gotten C between Dieck and Lot a bit sooner.

Did you forget that Rutger x Dieck takes 50 turns to C while Lot x Dieck takes 25 turns to C?

I don't see how that's reasonable at all. If Lot will be ditched, the player will not support him with Dieck (assuming Dieck is used longterm), it makes no sense. Not only because it's a wasted support slot but also because it's wasted support points. It could actually get in the way of other supports as well, and seeing as this support will only be used for maybe a few maps, I can't see how that's worth it.

OK, let's say that Rutger x Dieck will reach B by chapter 20. You get 5 chapters of that B support. If we remove that B support and give Dieck C Lot for 5 chapters (7, 8, 8x, 9, 10 for example), that already "balances" the lategame loss of a level of Rutger support, although generally supports are less valuable lategame anyway because your units are more rapeface, and Rutger's affinity isn't as good as Lot's.

What if it's a map like (The one where you get Sue) and your party is split so you can't do Rescue-Drop so easily. Rescue-Drop is pretty awesome, I definitely know that, but it isn't always possible. Plus, at this point you have 5 mounted units, so that's only two chains and another one left Rescue'd. In fact, if the chains move Rutger and Dieck, it would probably be very easy to just drop them right next to each other.

Watch my chapter 6 strategy. Thany and Clarine don't necessarily have to start adjacent to each other either, and if they don't drop either Rutger or Dieck, neither Rutger nor Dieck will get points with each other.

I don't know why that's assumed. In this game especially, I always keep my units next to each other more than that. Like, if the map takes 15 turns, I'll probably have them next to each other for at least 10, or ~67%. If I really have to go out of my way to do it it might make me lose a turn now but will make later chapters faster, so it pays off in the end.

I seriously doubt that 1 level of support is actually capable of shaving off a clearly defined number of turns. The payoff is clearly not equivalent.

Funds is not exactly a huge problem in FE6, this has been discussed. Furthermore Dragonshields are not buyable until C22 so she's not getting it for a while anyway.

OK, then this gives me an excuse to buy Angelic Robes. Or not; a promotion item is a promotion item.

But oh fine, I'll humor you. She can have a robe and a shield. Because guess what? Her durability still sucks compared to Lot.

So what? Echidna was not under Lot before, when she was assumed to get neither a Dragonshield nor an Angelic Robe. She got the equivalent of a Dragonshield by lategame in the form of B Gonzales, and apparently that was enough to put her into high tier. So if I substitute B Gonzales with a Dragonshield, isn't Echidna the same as before and not magically worse than Lot? Anyway, your comparison, judging by the levels, is only relevant for endgame, and involves quite a bit of Echidna sandbagging. Echidna and Lot will never be at equal levels. Echidna and Lot start, for all intents and purposes, 5 levels apart. Lot generally has to wait until 16x for his promotion due to Hero Crest competition. So a more accurate comparison involves 20/8 Lot against --/12 Echidna.

And I really can't do a lategame comparison because I don't have access to lategame stats. But I can demonstrate exactly how much Echidna is blowing Lot out of the water midgame.

Chapter 12:

Echidna  --/1 (no supports) Hand Axe     35.0 HP, 20.0 atk, 15.0 AS,  8.0 def, 91.0 hit
Lot      15/0 B Dieck       Hand Axe     38.6 HP, 19.6 atk, 11.2 AS, 10.8 def, 74.2 hit
             C Thany

This is really the only important comparison here. Echidna ORKOs 26 HP/4 def shamans, but Lot usually doesn't because they have 8 AS. Steel Bow archers have 7 AS (some have 8), but they also have around 21 avo, which cuts Lot's hit down to 53. Echidna has 82.3 true hit while Lot has 56.3 true hit, so Echidna has a 67.7% chance of bringing an archer down within another units' OHKO range (thus preventing a counter) whereas Lot has a 31.7% chance to do the same. Echidna can also double the group of fighters + a warrior at the end of the corridor. She leaves 39 HP/5 def with 5 HP using Steel Sword and 2RKOs the 54 HP/9 def warrior with a Killing Edge (a ORKO with one crit, which happens 55.1% of the time). Lot just... can't compare. He won't double the Hand Axe fighters and he most certainly won't double the warrior. And I guess up until chapter 16x, he'll lose 1 move as well.

Chapter 12x:

Echidna  --/1 (no supports) Hand Axe     35.0 HP, 20.0 atk, 15.0 AS,  8.0 def,  91.0 hit
                           Steel Sword           21.0 atk, 17.0 AS,           111.0 hit
                           Steel Blade           24.0 atk, 13.0 AS,           101.0 hit
Lot      16/0 B Dieck       Hand Axe     39.4 HP, 19.9 atk, 11.5 AS, 11.2 def,  74.7 hit
             C Thany       Iron Axe              20.9 atk,                     89.7 hit

Echidna kind of rapes 38 HP/5 def Steel Axe brigands with a Steel Blade. Some of them have up to 39 HP/6 def, and she misses those by 1 HP. The 33 HP/7 def archer near the starting point also dies in one round. Lot can double the Steel Axe ones for a 3HKO with Iron Axe, but he can't double the ones that aren't weighed down by Poison Axe or Hand Axe. Echidna actually has a chance at doubling them while being weighed down by 5 from Steel Blade, since most of them have 9 AS and only a few have 10, but if she can't double she'll just switch to Steel Sword or Iron Blade. And she still has a large hit lead on Lot, even moreso because of WTA.

Chapter 13x:

Echidna  --/2 (no supports) Hand Axe     35.7 HP, 20.3 atk, 15.3 AS,  8.1 def,  91.6 hit
                           Iron Axe              21.3 atk, 17.3 AS,           106.6 hit
                           Steel Sword           21.3 atk, 17.3 AS,           111.6 hit
                           Steel Axe             24.3 atk, 12.3 AS,            91.6 hit
Lot      17/0 B Dieck       Hand Axe     40.2 HP, 21.2 atk, 11.9 AS, 12.6 def,  78.5 hit
             B Thany       Iron Axe              22.2 atk,                     93.5 hit

I guess most of the comparison is rather pointless since both can just pick up a Halberd, but the difference is that Echidna can double 8 AS Steel Lance cavs and ORKO them whereas Lot can't. Also, if they switch to anything lighter, Lot is suddenly 3RKOing without Halberd whereas Echidna switches to Iron Axe and 3HKOs them (most Steel Lance cavs also carry Javelins). It's also worth noting that Echidna doubles the 11-13 AS pallies, but this is a minor advantage at best because it's still a 5HKO. On this map are also 8-9 AS Steel Lance WKs that Lot might not be able to double (and some of them will invariably switch to Javelin) and also a group of sword cavs that Lot can't do anything about unless he switches to Swordreaver.

Chapter 14:

Echidna has 3 move to Lot's 2 move. Enough said. She also doesn't fail terribly against mercs and can double Steel Lance WKs who have now increased their AS to 9-10, putting them out of Lot's doubling range. Also Wyrmslayer access for the WLs, I guess. It's also worth noting that merc AS drops as low as 13 on this map, and those plus the 14 AS ones can be doubled with Iron Sword for just about a 2RKO.

Chapter 14x:

Pirates on this map have either 13 AS (Poison Axe), 11 AS (Hand Axe), or 8 AS (Steel Axe). Lot will only double the Steel Axe pirates, and most of those have Hand Axes. These pirates are about the same defensively as the brigands from chapter 12x, so Echidna will ORKO them with a Steel Blade (if Echidna got a Body Ring, she'll double all 11 AS pirates with Steel Blade). Or, if she has the rank for swords, she can just use a Silver Sword and smite all of these chumps. The duo of druids is also not double-able by Lot. If Echidna has proc'd spd in any of her levels (about 2 at this point), she can also double 15 AS mercs.

Chapter 15:

Cavalier heaven. Lot gets doubled by the couple of valks, though, and doesn't do well against the mercs.

Chapter 16:

Lot can't double Steel Sword mercs (Echidna can double some of them with 15 AS), 12 AS Elfire/Aircalibur mages (Echidna can double them with 16 AS after being weighed down 3 by a Hand Axe), or that Killer Axe fighter at the start.

Basically, Echidna wins as long as she doubles stuff and Lot doesn't. Echidna can actually double mercs fairly consistently and therefore wins in Ilia where Lot's ability to snipe down PKs doesn't really bring much to the table considering how shitty they are. In Sacae, Echidna does better against myrmidons and doubles some lower end nomads, but Lot can just equip a bow and counter nomads who do pathetic damage against his 17.8 def at 20/1.

I guess it depends on how much weight you put on availability, but Echidna does beat Lot by miles before he promotes.

Edited October 20, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

OK, then this gives me an excuse to buy Angelic Robes

Still doesn't explain why Echidna is getting a free pass on them.

So what? Echidna was not under Lot before, when she was assumed to get neither a Dragonshield nor an Angelic Robe. She got the equivalent of a Dragonshield by lategame in the form of B Gonzales, and apparently that was enough to put her into high tier. So if I substitute B Gonzales with a Dragonshield, isn't Echidna the same as before and not magically worse than Lot? Anyway, your comparison, judging by the levels, is only relevant for endgame, and involves quite a bit of Echidna sandbagging. Echidna and Lot will never be at equal levels. Echidna and Lot start, for all intents and purposes, 5 levels apart. Lot generally has to wait until 16x for his promotion due to Hero Crest competition. So a more accurate comparison involves 20/8 Lot against --/12 Echidna.

THe huge difference is that like, two people care about Gonzales B, whereas 95% of the cast can benefit from a Dragonshield.

oh also. How in the name of holy crap does a five level gap close by ONE in fourteen chapters?

Edited October 20, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Igrene up to bottom of Lower-Mid and Tate up to above Noah were agreed upon earlier, yes? I would think Tate > OJ as well due to similar (probably better overall?) stats plus flight and an actually viable support.

I'm assuming Echidna gets an Angelic Robe "for free" because of not requiring a promotion item. Getting a second one would be more questionable, I guess.

[Dat Nick]

I'm assuming Echidna gets an Angelic Robe "for free" because of not requiring a promotion item.

I know the basis for her assuming to get one.

I question that basis because it's stupid. Promotion items do not cost the player any extra funds unless they need to be bought [Admittedly this is possible what with Hero Crest competition in this game] so tossing an extra stat booster on a prepromoted unit to reward them for "saving money" is just dumb.