Efficiency Tier List?

[Florete]

Wait, why is Tate that low in the first place? She's a lot like Thany in that she can promote whenever she wants as soon as she hits 10 because she's not taking it from anyone, only she turns out a bit better in the end because she has more Str. I'd say she should be at least at the bottom of Upper MId.

[dondon151]

Fine fine. I still think Reikken has brainwashed everybody here into Thany fanboy-ism but I'll shut up.

To be honest, I actually disagreed with Thany > Lot until I did my 0% growths run. If she is capable of shaving off that many turns without needing to fight, then it follows that she can do more were she able to fight.

I don't agree with his level estimations or how fast his supports build up, but he has about the right idea, so...

[grandjackal]

Wait, why is Tate that low in the first place? She's a lot like Thany in that she can promote whenever she wants as soon as she hits 10 because she's not taking it from anyone, only she turns out a bit better in the end because she has more Str. I'd say she should be at least at the bottom of Upper MId.

No one really has brought up Tate before, she's just never been talked about. I do see the point there, as I said though.

To be honest, I could see her above Cecilia, though yeah it might be a bit tough.

Tate to the bottom of upper mid, anyone disagree?

[Dat Nick]

As long as we're talking about Dick, what's with the weird ordering in Top tier? Like, how is Rutger in between the cavs instead of above or below both of them? Is there that much of a gap between them?

[dondon151]

I think it's because Allen has doubling issues all the way up until promotion whereas Lance (and obviously Rutger) don't, and that offsets his 1-2 range on Rutger.

Really, as much rape as Rutger is, he definitely didn't deserve top of top. I think Allen should go over Rutger as well, though, because being locked to swords over the entire game is just... not good.

[Ether]

As long as we're talking about Dick, what's with the weird ordering in Top tier? Like, how is Rutger in between the cavs instead of above or below both of them? Is there that much of a gap between them?

People were bitching about how Lance's supports put him over Rutger,since he doubles more reliably than Allan.

[grandjackal]

I think someone argued that Allen not doubling for a while constituted Rutger above him.

I dunno, I'm thinking of just shoving them into high tier, as they aren't really god-like. They're great, but it's not like Zagaro Wolf FEDS great, or Saphy great.

Would everyone agree with the elimination of top tier?

[Ether]

I dunno about eliminating it.Personally,I would move Clarine/Miledy/Percy up into top,and then have Echidna top high.I see a tier gap between Dick and Echidna at least.

[Dat Nick]

I don't think so. The Elite Four have a lot of availability on the guys below them [Percy/Miredy/Echidna] and none really outshine them by the time they exist. A tier gap is warranted for availability if nothing else.

However, I could see a case for Dick>Alan if his doubling issues are that bad.

[dondon151]

They're not that bad. Allen can still double Steel Axe fighters and Steel Bow archers in the western isles and most cavaliers from chapter 13 onwards. He only loses because he can't double Hand Axe fighters (who have about 10 AS), but then again, Dieck can't either.

[grandjackal]

I dunno about eliminating it.Personally,I would move Clarine/Miledy/Percy up into top,and then have Echidna top high.I see a tier gap between Dick and Echidna at least.

Why is that? Echidna spanks everyone on your team on arrival. She could equip a steel axe and still be faster than Deick, and still doubling too.

They're not that bad. Allen can still double Steel Axe fighters and Steel Bow archers in the western isles and most cavaliers from chapter 13 onwards. He only loses because he can't double Hand Axe fighters (who have about 10 AS), but then again, Dieck can't either.

This, this, this this this. This is not godly behavior. Everyone in this game has a slow period except for Percival who just has the problem of iffy accuracy and join time. If they were truly gods, they'd be doing far better than this.

Rutger is not exempt as well. He's great at first, but he does NEED his supports. Without it, he has crappy durability and a good chance of being hit by the lance heavy lategame, and a large chunk of crit went missing. On top of this, he's stuck with swords.

Even the cavs, they are basically average till the isles.

No one in this game is a god modder for basically all of their existence, no one is FEDS Zag/Wolf god or Saphy god. Thus, why is there a god tier?

Edited October 10, 2009 by France

[Dat Nick]

Why is that? Echidna spanks everyone on your team on arrival. She could equip a steel axe and still be faster than Deick, and still doubling too.

A 4 AS lead which is being lessened by con is NOT spanking Dick, and it's not even coming close to cancelling out the fact that he was comparing with Marcus and Rutger as your best unit for 12 chapters while Echidna was off banging burly Axemen.

No one in this game is a god modder for basically all of their existence, no one is FEDS Zag/Wolf god or Saphy god.

It's not about whether you god mode or not. It's whether or not you're a tier up on the units up below you. Is Dick a tier up on the units above him? Everything seems to point to "yes".

Edited October 10, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

It's not about whether you god mode or not. It's whether or not you're a tier up on the units up below you. Is Dick a tier up on the units above him? Everything seems to point to "yes".

Deick yes, now that I look into it. Everyone else? Not really. Why do I now think Deick is the exception? Well, he joins pretty much the best unit in your group. He "supposedly" slows down in the isles, because even at realistic levels he's struggling to double or ORKO, though granted his supports and swords make him hard to touch, and he's still quite durable. With his speed growth, his speed would continue to be a problem even later in the game. However...

5 chapters of being the best unit on your team outside of Marcus who is also key in killing two armor bosses (do tell me who else aside from Marcus (why???) is capable of killing hte bosses efficiently), everyone else is basically average (do tell me what screams godly about earlygame Allen and Lance). 7 levels seems fair. Chapter 7, the hero crest shows up. Rutger can't possibly use it because he joined only 3 chapters earlier at the tail end, at best he'd still be level 4. How could he have possibly gained 6 levels in the course of 2 chapters.

So let's promote him.

12/1 Deick

36 HP, 13 Str, 16 Skill, 14 Speed, 7 Luck, 11 Def, 4 Res, E Axes, probably has A swords now.

Echidna wins 2 Skill, 3 Res and 5 Speed. Deick wins 1 HP, 1 Luck, 3 Def and 6 Con. Deick could also have supports built up. Now here's the thing..Did anyone notice that this is Deick basically still in chapter 7? I'm a grand total of 5 chapters having Deick be superior to Echidna before she shows up, and she can't beat him. Embaressing yet is that she beats everyone else on the team on arrival, even the cavs. Yet Deick is smiting her (at best she's doubling mercs with an iron sword, do not color me impressed). Might say I sacrificed his greatness later, but he slows down later. Hell, he's struggling to double at the isles, you think it gets better for im with a 30% speed growth? At worst, he's now being doubled by the fastest heroes in chapter 22. I'm not crying.

I will keep God Tier, but only Deick is gonna be in it. Any objections?

Edited October 10, 2009 by France

[dondon151]

Why is that? Echidna spanks everyone on your team on arrival. She could equip a steel axe and still be faster than Deick, and still doubling too.

Actually, Echidna has 12 AS with a Steel Axe, which is 1 lower than 15/0 Dieck's 13 AS.

This, this, this this this. This is not godly behavior. Everyone in this game has a slow period except for Percival who just has the problem of iffy accuracy and join time. If they were truly gods, they'd be doing far better than this.

Rutger is not exempt as well. He's great at first, but he does NEED his supports. Without it, he has crappy durability and a good chance of being hit by the lance heavy lategame, and a large chunk of crit went missing. On top of this, he's stuck with swords.

Even the cavs, they are basically average till the isles.

No one in this game is a god modder for basically all of their existence, no one is FEDS Zag/Wolf god or Saphy god. Thus, why is there a god tier?

Zag/Wolf have their slow periods in FEDS too.

Their performances are superior to everyone else's in earlygame. It doesn't take a genius to look at Dieck's bases and immediately conclude that they're far superior to Lot's or Lance's or Allen's stats. He also basically has 2 weapons all to himself, the Iron Blade he starts with and the Steel Blade from chapter 4, plus he gets to share the Killing Edge with Rutger. Speaking of Rutger, he is literally the only unit who doubles non-failure enemies (i.e. not soldiers) for a few chapters after he joins. The brigands and fighters in chapter 5 have 8-9 AS, which means that the next most likely unit to double them is Lance, and he doesn't average 12 AS until 9/0. There's also "boss killer" utility, which isn't huge, but it's still in Rutger's favor.

Though, this doesn't mean that Lance and Allen aren't good, either. They're mounted and have superior durability owing mainly to their support, which will probably reach B by chapter 8. The point here is that everyone else in earlygame sans Marcus has either accuracy issues, damage issues, or both, but these 4 units don't. And then, they have something like 10-11 chapters on Echidna, 3 more on Miledy, and 3 more on Percival.

There IS a significant difference between the top 4 characters in the game and the rest of the cast. Characters don't have to be godly to be in top tier.

By the way, you seem to be forgetting in your Echidna hype that while she does beat unpromoted units at join time, they still level up faster and will be getting those promo bonuses within a maximum of 7 maps, and then will proceed to beat Echidna the rest of the game.

Edited October 10, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Actually, Echidna has 12 AS with a Steel Axe, which is 1 lower than 15/0 Dieck's 13 AS.

I just proposed Deick alone should be god tier. But the point is even with she's still able to double, and she's packing 24 MT along with doubling. That is offensively stunning.

Their performances are superior to everyone else's in earlygame. It doesn't take a genius to look at Dieck's bases and immediately conclude that they're far superior to Lot's or Lance's or Allen's stats. He also basically has 2 weapons all to himself, the Iron Blade he starts with and the Steel Blade from chapter 4, plus he gets to share the Killing Edge with Rutger. Speaking of Rutger, he is literally the only unit who doubles non-failure enemies (i.e. not soldiers) for a few chapters after he joins. The brigands and fighters in chapter 5 have 8-9 AS, which means that the next most likely unit to double them is Lance, and he doesn't average 12 AS until 9/0. There's also "boss killer" utility, which isn't huge, but it's still in Rutger's favor.

Though, this doesn't mean that Lance and Allen aren't good, either. They're mounted and have superior durability owing mainly to their support, which will probably reach B by chapter 8. The point here is that everyone else in earlygame sans Marcus has either accuracy issues, damage issues, or both, but these 4 units don't. And then, they have something like 10-11 chapters on Echidna, 3 more on Miledy, and 3 more on Percival.

There IS a significant difference between the top 4 characters in the game and the rest of the cast. Characters don't have to be godly to be in top tier.

By the way, you seem to be forgetting in your Echidna hype that while she does beat unpromoted units at join time, they still level up faster and will be getting those promo bonuses within a maximum of 7 maps, and then will proceed to beat Echidna the rest of the game.

Not significantly so. Thany is rather comparable to Lance with flight, the axers have Halberd and Hammer, Deick is obvious, Rutger sort of stutters when the lances show up. Lance and Allen are rather average at first really, sort of like FEDS Cain and Abel. They're mobile, but they don't have supports built up at the moment. The enemy still doesn't have a hard time fucking with them. No one aside from Marcus and Deick are truly godly early on.

But 7 chapters later? by then, the game is almost over. Even later, she's still good (basically Lance with better axe rank and no horse). She doesn't really "slow down".

Either way, I still think Deick should be in his own tier, and I think the rest should drop into the former.

[dondon151]

I just proposed Deick alone should be god tier. But the point is even with she's still able to double, and she's packing 24 MT along with doubling. That is offensively stunning.

Dieck can switch to Steel Blade for 24 MT and 12 AS, the same as Steel Axe Echidna.

But 7 chapters later? by then, the game is almost over. Even later, she's still good (basically Lance with better axe rank and no horse). She doesn't really "slow down".

7 chapters after chapter 11 is chapter 16. The game is far from over.

[Florete]

Rutger is not exempt as well. He's great at first, but he does NEED his supports. Without it, he has crappy durability and a good chance of being hit by the lance heavy lategame, and a large chunk of crit went missing. On top of this, he's stuck with swords.

Did you miss my post before as well as the three or so other times where I pointed out this game is not Lance heavy? Ch. 21 has all Lancers but otherwise there aren't nearly as many as people keep saying.

People need to stop relating FE7's enemies to every other game, it happens a lot for FE8 and 9 as well. And I bet the only reason it doesn't happen for 10 is because of no WT in HM.

[Dat Nick]

People need to stop relating FE7's enemies to every other game, it happens a lot for FE8 and 9 as well.

I'm cool so long as we can keep citing FEDS as a lance flood.

[Florete]

Either way, I still think Deick should be in his own tier, and I think the rest should drop into the former.

Lolno. Dieck is not the best character in the game, much less a full tier above the next. He's got a great start but a bit of a problem with growths, especially Spd.

People need to stop relating FE7's enemies to every other game, it happens a lot for FE8 and 9 as well.

I'm cool so long as we can keep citing FEDS as a lance flood.

I don't know FEDS that well, so if it is, okay.

[grandjackal]

12/1 Deick

36 HP, 13 Str, 16 Skill, 14 Speed, 7 Luck, 11 Def, 4 Res, enough Con

This happens as soon as he slaps it on in chapter 7. Now I have Iron, Steel and Hand Axes, +1 move to keep up with the cavs. 20 Mt generally ORKOs everything in chapter 8 outside of armors, of whom he can drop to 6 HP with steel, or just kill with an armorslayer. He has 20 mt supportless with a handy. He's been the best unit on your team outside of Marcus since join time. Echidna shows up and pretty much is supposed to be the greatest upon arrival, and Deick not only is superior now, but as soon as chapter 7. In exchange, all I've really lost is that MAYBE he gets doubled by hte fastest heroes in chapter 22.

You were saying?

Edited October 10, 2009 by France

[Dr. Tarrasque]

With his SPD growth he's gonna see more doubling issues later if promoted at 12

Edited October 10, 2009 by ?!

[grandjackal]

With his SPD growth he's gonna see more doubling issues later if promoted at 12

You mean like he usually did?

[Colonel M]

I'm going to have to agree with everyone that Lance / Rutgar / Allan looks really awkward. It's a matter of "do we classify Rutgar as the best character in the game" or "do we classify him as an excellent unit but has minor problems later on"?

Deak is pretty close to a great character. Probably not the best though.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

With his SPD growth he's gonna see more doubling issues later if promoted at 12

You mean like he usually did?

Like I said, he's gonna see MORE doubling issues later if promoted at 12. Does this early promotion offset his troubles later? I doubt it.

Edited October 13, 2009 by ?!

[grandjackal]

With his SPD growth he's gonna see more doubling issues later if promoted at 12

You mean like he usually did?

Like I said, he's gonna see MORE doubling issues later if promoted at 12. Does this early promotion offset his troubles later? I doubt it.

When exactly? Due to promoting so early, he has plenty of time to pad out levels. Prepromotes (like Thany) tend to get to level 12 by chapter 21. Deick could easily be level 15, which he'd have 18 speed. Normally at 20/10, he'd have 19 speed. He's still doubling paladins, he's still not being doubled by heroes (so my original assumption is wrong, he barely changes at all), nothing changed. He lost very very little. If anything, low speed growth is a perfectly good reason to promote him early, because it means he won't lose much in the long run, especially promoting this early.

Deick is FE1 Ogma if he had FE6 axes to work with and supports.