Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Florete]

Cyclops, Dracozombies, anything he 4HKOs that he wants devestated immediately to avoid the counter. Before you pull out Adhulma, may I remind you there are others to have S sword rank, so Joshua is not the soul user of it. This lets someone who can't ORKO these certain beasts also ORKO them just the same. Nothing I can show with stats unfortunately...

It's true he doesn't 4HKO Cyclops, and no one cares about Dracozombies, but Cyclops aren't too common and I'd rather rely on a 49% chance to crit twice (That's on 70 displayed crit) than a ~47% chance (On 55 displayed crit doubling), or however Lethality's activation works, to OHKO on one of two hits. That's right, SM Josh actually has a better chance to crit twice than Assassin Josh has to activate Lethality (actually, I believe it's called Silencer in this) once if my calculations are correct, and it only takes ~20/11 SM Josh with the supports you gave to 6HKO an 18 Def/65 HP Cyclops with a Killing Edge. Also, in the event something fails, at least SM Josh left it with less HP.

As for such boosts, 1 STR and Con are for the most part negligeable. He has sheer speed as is, he won't miss 1 speed. 1 Str is also negligeable if you're ORKOing anyways with higher rank weapons.

1 Str is 3 on a crit, 6 on a double crit. That can be big.

The Con can also help. Gwyllgi's get as much as 21-22 Spd. He reaches 26 Spd at 20/12 on average, so he'd need to not be weighed down at all to double. Cyclops matter, so these guys should as well.

40 WEXP I would care about if he couldn't get it to S rank quick enough anyways.

It just means SM Josh will have a 20 crit lead instead of 15 over Assassin Josh for a period of time.

And to all this, Assassin Josh can only say: Silencer, Lockpicks, and visibility. To that, I say: Lol.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mekkah]

Kuja (what's with the name changes all the time? are you people never satisfied?), you're making no sense whatsoever. "His crit is high anyways"...when you're as crit dependant as Joshua when it comes to killing things, you'll want every bit you can get. Making Joshua a Assassin is pretty dumb.

"but I can avoid Cyclops/Bael counters"

With what, 25% Lethality? Let's say that enemy had 20% to hit him to begin with if he countered. His chance of taking that counter now drops to 15%. What an amazing improvement.

"JOSH HAS COMPETITION FOR THE HERO CREST!

Seriously? No he doesn't."

Why do you insist on writing away Ross/Garcia when it comes to Joshua's Hero Crest, but Colm suddendly competes with Ross for an Ocean Seal? Why do you suddendly forget about Gerik's insta-promo option?

For Colm, go look at the stuff he gets you again (smash posted it a few pages back iirc). There's Energy Ring steal in Ch7, several Speedwings (like Ch9 Amelia) and of course Silver Sword, Angelic Robe and Elysian Whip (!) in Ch9.

[Dat Nick]

May I say it's an utter waste promoting Colm with this in mind?

How about some damned consistency?

Using that logic, how the hell is it NOT a waste to promote Joshua, since he's only barely better in combat? 1 strength, fucking wow. Rogue utility and an affinity that doesn't suck>That.

but yeah. ITT ridiculous Colm sandbagging. He can drop to high. Not upper mid.

I mean really, didn't we just agree that marginally better combat<Thief utility?

Edited September 8, 2009 by Joker

[Colonel M]

Also saying Ephraim Cormag > Colm. Eirika Cormag has pretty good AS after early promotion and stays solid throughout. Colm doesn't have terribad combat, but it is slightly hindered by the low Sword rank. Also I'm assuming Wyvern Knight before anyone asks "Wyvern Lord?". Though I guess he could use that if he waited a bit.

Not a wholeheartedly solid argument; however, it's against utility which Cormag's flying fills nicely. Anyone agree/disagree with this?

EDIT: Fuuuuuuuck... forgot Moulder was in the way.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[Jaybee]

Any moar thought on Tana going below Myrrh?

[Mekkah]

Don't care much for it so if there's no opposition I will make the move.

[Dat Nick]

I see comparing to Seth [read Vykan's post a few pages back] better than anything Tana does, so yeah, go ahead and do that.

[CATS]

Or maybe you just can't use Ross efficiently.

So you're saying this happened on your game:

If you took 21 turns between Ch 2, 3 and 4, then Ross hitting something on each and every turn [30 x 21] results in 630 Exp gained, putting him at L7. A kill is about +20 Exp over a hit, so in order to make it to 900 Exp, he'd have to kill something on 11 of those 21 turns [55 x 11 = 605], and hit something on every single one of the remaining 10 turns [30 x 10 = 300, +605 = 905).

Correct? Either this is what happened, or you took longer than ~7 turns per chap.

As if there wasn't more proof you're a dingus, you haven't even taken into account leveling speed, OR Gilliam's level! Gilliam starts at level 4, his chances are only 30% due growth. Ross at level 5 on average has 4 speed, so he's far more likely to have speed on account of the fact he gets to level 5 faster, and has far more chances of landing said speed. Both at level 5? By your logic, your Gilliam with have 4 speed, and my Ross will have 8 on equal levels. I could probably double Bonewalkers with that. No matter what, Ross will always have more speed than Gilliam. Hell, I could double zombies with an iron axe, and Ross could just possibly ORKO them at that point (as he would then have equal strength to base Garcia, and you know how he murders zombies).

Yes, both at L5. Note that Gilliam starts at L4, so I'm saying he only gained one level in three chapters, whereas Ross is apparently getting four levels in two chapters (in other words Ross is levelling 6-7 times faster, god only knows how that's justified). And even with that assumed, there's only about a 53% chance that Ross is doubling and Gilliam isn't.

Yes, at absolute average values, Ross has 4 Spd and Gilliam has 3. These are the most likely individual values. However, other values do indeed occur, and they occur often enough to be significant.

http://fea.fewiki.net/feastat.php?character=ross2&game=8e&stat=3

http://fea.fewiki.net/feastat.php?character=gilliam&game=8e&stat=3

Gilliam's chance of getting 4 Spd is 30%. Ross's chance of still having 3 Spd is 24%. The combined odds that neither one of those goes through are about 53%, which means about 47% odds that atleast one of them occurs.

You're the one who brought him up! Do you have some rare condition where you can write, but you can't read what you just wrote down?

Yeah, I brought him up in the point I'm discussing above. Here, you were talking about how most of the bonewalkers use lances and how Ross fighting them (i.e. sending your lowest move unit to fight the enemies all the way across the map from your starting point) is no problem, then you just randomly started talking about Gilliam's move, when the point had nothing to do with Gilliam in the first place.

Yes it does, because it means something is obviously wrong with your argument.

No, it means people think there's something wrong with my arguments. I've yet to see anyone actually point out the problem.

Your argument seems to imply no one leaves anything at low enough health to allow Ross to actually kill something, let alone the fact he could actually kill his own things at least by chapter 4. Eirika could easily (on top of that, Ross could also chip and let Eirika then cleanly kill an enemy without having to resort to crit). Garcia can hit pretty damn hard. Seth with Gilliam rescued.

1x Brigand Level 3 (Iron Axe): 24 HP, 15 Atk, 5 AS, 77 Hit, 10 Avo, 4 Def, 1 Res, 0 Crit

1x Brigand Level 2 (Iron Axe): 22 HP, 15 Atk, 6 AS, 77 Hit, 12 Avo, 4 Def, 0 Res, 0 Crit**

1x Brigand Level 3 (Iron Axe): 24 HP, 15 Atk, 6 AS, 77 Hit, 12 Avo, 3 Def, 1 Res, 0 Crit

1x Brigand Level 2 (Iron Axe): 22 HP, 14 Atk, 6 AS, 79 Hit, 12 Avo, 4 Def, 0 Res, 1 Crit

Garcia has 16 Mt at base with his iron axe. He leaves them low enough for Ross to smack down. Nevermind others are capable of leaving other brigands down low enough for Ross due to doubling (Eirika, she can leave them with low enough health easily enough), hitting hard twice (Franz), what have you. Ross can easily finish off, and leave these "superior fighters" to put their superior fighting to other enemies. I'm sure you'll pull the "but anyone can finish them off", and I'll say precisely. Ross then is no better than any other aside from better accuracy due to Hatchet's better hit and lack of WTD since your only other option is Javelins.

Ch 2 Brigands? 22-24 Hp, 3-4 Def, 5-6 Spd?

L2-3 Eirika has 4-5 Str. Doubling with Iron, she does double 7's, leaving them with 8-10 Hp. Base Ross has 9 Atk, so he's doing 5-6 damage. Not enough to finish. He may be able to finish if Eirika uses the Rapier, but making her use up charges of that just so that Ross can finish something, when anyone other than Ross could've done so without needing Eirika to use the Rapier, is fail.

Yeah, Garcia has 16 Mt. He does 12-13 damage, leaving them with 9 Hp at best. Ross does 5-6 damage.

Franz? He won't be able to double. He doesn't reach 9 Spd until L5. L3 Franz w/ Iron Sword has 13 Atk, +1 from WTA, so he's doing 10-11 damage. Garcia and Eirika leave them with 8-10 Hp, so Franz is able to finish them after one of those two has attacked, or vice versa. Ross might be able to finish one that got higher values in both Hp and Def after Franz and Garcia both attack it, and assuming that for whatever reason Eirika can't reach that enemy. Other than all of those conditions falling into place, no, Ross can't finish Brigands after these people have attacked them.

So he can chip to reduce the need of wasting superior offense on simple finishing, be it the start or the actual finish. This is an absolute positive, because Ross is forced regardless. You can't not use him for better efficiency, and there's no reason we shouldn't.

You sure can not use him, even though he's forced. Colonel seems to think it's a good idea to have Seth rescue somebody so that he can weaken things rather than killing them. Guess who your most useless unit is in Ch 2-3? Then in Ch 4, he's no longer forced. You have to leave two units behind.

---

And once again I'll say it once more: Neimi didn't have enough power to break the wall on Turn 1 anyway.

Neimi + Garcia breaks it. Base Garcia w/ Hand Axe is 15 Atk, base Neimi has 10 Atk, and the wall has 25 Hp.

Sending Neimi up to recruit Colm? Again, Neimi can attack the upper wall on turn 1 and still reach Colm when he appears on turn 2. Since merely stating this is apparently not enough for you to understand, here, I'll use pictures:

The red square is where you put Neimi on the first turn, from which she is able to attack the wall. The green square is where Colm appears on turn 2, and the orange indicates the distance between those two points. 4 squares, and Neimi has 5 move.

So again, why did you not break the wall on the first turn, so that you could go ahead and attack that Brigand with someone at 1 range, in addition to just hitting it with Ross?

And boohoo, I missed a 94% chance on an enemy. No use crying over spilled milk.

*also missed against the boss and wasted seth's first turn, when you could've used him and/or the unit he rescued to break the walls, rather than leaving them both intact

It isn't defined as anything from what I've known. Neither was it bulleting a chapter nor EXP gains.

It has to be defined as something, otherwise the tier list is based on nothing. Going back to the tier list FAQ yet again:

Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure. Normally you’d expect a high tier unit to require fairly basic weapons and items while giving great returns in terms of their combat usefulness. Conversely, a lower ranked unit would probably require a lot of resources while giving less satisfactory combat returns.

The reference to turn count is obvious and undeniable.

The mention of "resource expenditure" might be interpreted as including Exp gains, I suppose, even though it only specifically mentions weapons/items. But I've been assuming that a higher Exp gain has no worth in and of itself, as if it does, then Seth absolutely doesn't belong in his own tier. That, and it's been made quite clear in the FE7 tier list that "efficiency" disregards the Exp rank.

If you want to argue that efficiency is low turn count + high Exp gains, then be my guest; I'll absolutely agree so long as Seth is dropped out of his own tier.

But otherwise, yes, efficiency = low turn count.

So I'm considered guilty because of me trying to help Vanessa, who actually was the one that dragged me in turn counts in C3?

Vanessa? I'm pointing out a few things I saw that reduced your efficiency, and you'll notice that none of them had to do with Vanessa. If Vanessa was slowing you down so much, then go argue her out of toptier or something. But Vanessa has nothing to do with this.

I'm not particularly interested in why you took longer. My point is simply that you did indeed have higher turncounts, and that efficient play entails lower turncounts. Thus, how can you claim that your results match up with efficient play?

Again, it doesn't mean bullet train through the game.

"Bullet training" would be somewhere along the lines of beating Ch 3 in 5-6 turns, as is easily possible. You took 11 turns; you took twice as long as that. I'm not suggesting that you "bullet through the game," I'm simply suggesting that you don't dilly-dally, either. You could've easily reduced your turncount a bit without going all the way down to "bullet train" level.

I also could've went north and just left Ross against that one Brigand. Then what?

Yeah, you could've gone the long way. Why would you do that?

[grandjackal]

Well until others respond to the Ross deal aside from me and Colonel, I'll put it on hold. On the other hand, one thing I can agree with CATS on is Dozla rising. The dude is pretty beastly. 9 speed ain't shiny, but his growth is a surprising 40%. Out fo all our natural axe using classes, he is technically your fastest speed grower. Now at equal levels, Garcia as Hero would have +2 speed on him, Ross a grand +4 at 10/20/1. I am not gonna push Ross that far until at best chapter 14 or 15. Meaning at least in Eirika route, he will have a 3 chapter head on Ross. Ross needs to be level 10/12 Pirate to have similar offense (A Garcia they would about tie crit, due to Dozla's natural bonuses). Defensively, Dozla would have a spinebreaking 12 HP, 2 def and 2 Res on our little hero. With the Garcia support, Ross will have more avoid and hit though by 29 avoid and 17 hit, along with Luck negating crit chances (Dozla's luck is 4, which is that miserable).

However, 9 base speed is 9 base speed. 40% speed growth is nice, but the base doth suck. By the time they meet, Ross will be nowhere near 12, probably around hte level 14 or so. Ross will have a 1 AS lead on him, so he'll double a tidbit more, but it's barely much. Ross also has the leveling speed on him, due to basically being 7 levels lower. Ross will show up with superior speed by then regardless. However, Ross does need a promotion item to continue being good. Granted he'll be far better offensively, but Ross never actually really catches up to Dozla defensively. He needs to be 10/20/5 just to reach Dozla's base HP, 10/20 to his base defense, and he needs to promote to match base resistance. Granted, Ross will have far more avoid by then, but his hit is dependent on his support with Garcia. Without daddy, Ross has a grand total of only 2 more hit than Dozla most likely on arrival.

Surely, Ross must win growths! Well...

Dozla has 15% HP, 10% Speed, 5% Def and Res growths over Ross, tieing growths in Str and Skill, Ross's only win being Luck of which is only a 10% anyways. That's right. Dozla grows better in every single way, save Luck. He has overall 25% more growth total than Ross.

So you must be saying right now 9 base speed is bad again. Well, then let's fix it. Clearly his growths are good, and as for his bases?

43 HP, 16 Str, 11 Skill, 9 Speed, 4 Luck, 11 Def, 6 Res

Everything else is pretty decent save Luck. So let's fix the bigger problem of speed. Let's give him a speed wing. Generally as expensive as a promotion item, but everyone else above him gets one anyways. Let's see how he compares to someone in upper mid, like Garcia after I give Dozla a wing.

20/1 Hero Garcia

44 HP, 19 Str, 15 Skill, 12 Speed, 9 Luck, 11 Def, 5 Res

So Garcia has a 1 HP, 3 Str (Truly, he is the ultimate Saji), 1 Speed and 5 Luck win, with a 10 hit, 7 avoid lead. However, they're still pretty damned similar. Dozla practically ties him in durability, offense is still pretty similar save the 3 STR lead, and Dozla has a 13 crit lead. Even with A Ross, that's still pretty close. So how about growths?

Dozla has a 5% HP, 20% Speed, 5% Def and 10% Res lead in growths.

Garcia has a 15% Str, 5% Skill and 10% Luck growth advantage.

So yeah, Garcia is always gonna smack someone into next week, but Dozla is astoundingly growing speed twice as fast as Garcia is. 3 levels they would tie, 5 he would start winning and never would turn back. In the end,Dozla could end up monsterous along with being more durable.

Supports.

With Garcia and Dozla, it's weird. Garcia has fire, Dozla has Thunder. Garcia is already hitting far rediculously harder, but Dozla can manage up offense soon enough anyways, on top of being more durable. Garcia would then basically be getting overkill power. So all Garcia gets out of it is more avoid and hit. Hit is a great thing for axes, but Dozla also gets avoid out of his. Problem is support OPTIONS. Garcia is quite screwed in this sense. His support options are god awful, or they don't want him. Seth is getting Eirika and Franz end of story. Gilliam and Neimi suck, and Ross is still questionable. He could very well be supportless. Dozla himself is no better off himself really, but the main reason he got no supports was because it was thought that he himself sucked. I can safely say that Garcia is pretty damn low on options, but Dozla has yet to be really analyzed. Let's review his supports.

Dozla has L'arachel (25+3 Light), Myrrh (0+2 Wind), Rennac (10+2 Darkness), Ewan (0+3 Light), and Garcia (10+2 Fire)

Let's go down them one by one.

-L'arachel: Know what she could definitely go for? Some extra defense! Dozla gives it to her, and pretty damn quick no less. 12 turns for a C. On top of this, Dozla gets a bit more oomph in his attack, becomes even tankier, gets more crit, but importantly gets more hit out of it. On top of this, Dozla is at least a pretty damn good wall. L'arachel definitely wouldn't mind hiding behind him, healing him all the way to get more exp. Light also gives him the benefit of making his luck a non-issue. This benefits L'arachel mroe than you'd think, as her base defense is actually pretty nice. Well, for mage anyways. Being able to boost her defense quickly this way certainly helps her survivability. She also gets crit out of it, and at least a +1 ATK for when it would finally matter. It's very functional, it benefits both greatly...Question is, how willing are we to tolerate the healer?

-Myrrh: Well they both are tanky, and she wouldn't mind the extra defense and crit, he wouldn't mind the extra padding, oomph, crit and hit...But look how slow it is. On top of this, the bonuses are a bit stretched out. Not really worth it.

-Rennac: He CERTAINLY appreciates the bonuses. More avoid, more crit, bit more defense. Dozla certainly wouldn't mind such boosts either. Problem is, it's Rennac. Granted it's possible to get him the most crit out of your basic thief units due to support options open to him and affinity, but...He's still Rennac. His starting strength is 10. No one has this bad a base by the time he shows up save possibly trainees not Ross, and Marissa. Oh well, helps him technically be a better swordmaster than Marissa. Lulz. Oh well. Aside from offense, he's still pretty close to a 20/1 Colm. However I suppose I kinda shot myself in the foot with how I've been treating Colm lately...

-Ewan: No

-Garcia: How odd that they can support eachother. Basically they get avoid and crit, both of which they love. Dozla gets a bit more oomph and hit, Garcia gets a bit more padding. Net benefit for both really.

So how to measure this? Well in most likeliness, Garcia and Dozla are technically eachother's best supporters. However, they'd prefer to A with someone else, and just B with eachother. Garcia would want to A Ross, Dozla would prefer to A with L'arachel, though Rennac wouldn't mind supporting him either.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I could see Dozla in upper mid. I guess it really depends on what level Dozla would be when Garcia promotes. If at natural Gacia is 20/10 and Dozla is level 15, they'd look like this.

Garcia 20/10 Hero

52 HP, 25 Str, 19 Skill, 14 Speed, 13 Luck, 13 Def, 6 Res-44 hit, 41 avoid, 9 crit

Dozla level 15

54 HP, 23 Str, 15 Skill, 14 Speed, 8 Luck, 15 Def, 9 Res-34 hit, 36 avoid, 22 crit.

Under best circumstances, giving Garcia A Ross, Dozla A L'arachel and B supporting eachother, they'd get the following bonuses.

Garcia-+4 Str, 1 def, 20 hit, 25 crit, 25 avoid

Dozla-+2 Str, 4 Def, 15 hit, 25 crit, 17 avoid

Well I guess I can say that at least Garcia is better than Dozla.

EDIT: Oh, hello CATS. Was just typing up something on thoughts on something we actually agree on to some extent.

Actually, looking over the rest of upper mid, I guess Dozla might not fit so well up there after all. Deussal's start is SURPRISINGLY similar, but has better support options/sheer weapon control/sheer defensive advantage, and +2 more speed. Dozla at least has +10 Speed growth and is leveling much faster due to being 7 levels lower. Cormag though, starts with more speed, leveling speed, and stays that way.

Only way Dozla's going to upper mid is if these two are exposed to enough weakness-slayer weapons, and that Dozla has terrain advantage might actually mean something.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kuja

[deleted35362]

Eirika is way too high. She sucks, really. She's got good stats, but can only use

swords. If she was a swordmaster she'd be fine, but no. She's not very good at

defeating enemies.

[Dat Nick]

And what about her combat sucks, again?

ATK? Covered by Seth

Def? The same

Move? That's covered too on promotion

She also gets an Eph support if we're going Eir route.

And no, she isn't a SM, but she might as well be. 9 Base speed is nice. 60% growth is beastly.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Joker

[CATS]

EDIT: Oh, hello CATS. Was just typing up something on thoughts on something we actually agree on to some extent.

Actually, looking over the rest of upper mid, I guess Dozla might not fit so well up there after all. Deussal's start is SURPRISINGLY similar, but has better support options/sheer weapon control/sheer defensive advantage, and +2 more speed. Dozla at least has +10 Speed growth and is leveling much faster due to being 7 levels lower. Cormag though, starts with more speed, leveling speed, and stays that way.

Only way Dozla's going to upper mid is if these two are exposed to enough weakness-slayer weapons, and that Dozla has terrain advantage might actually mean something.

Well, good to know there are some things we can agree on.

For example, I agree that Dozla doesn't belong in upper mid. I just think he should go above Ross in lower mid.

[grandjackal]

Looking things over eve with the fact that Ross's tier 1 promotion was blown out of proportion, he'd still be Dozla's offensive superior upon arrival. I don't agree that Ross hurts efficiency early on (Gilliam is far worse. Same speed problem, slower leveling speed than Ross, his lances are a problem against a few of the axers early on, Ross by chapter 4 is at least level 5 to double zombies, hatchet a more accurate response to Mogalls, a rediculously fast and effective support with Garcia). However, until we settle if Ross is upper mid or not, could you agree to this lower-mid tier set-up?

Lower Mid

Ross/Dozla (contested)

Myrrh

Tana

Gilliam

Whoever's below

To be honest, I don't know what Gilliam's doing out of low.

[Colonel M]

And once again I'll say it once more: Neimi didn't have enough power to break the wall on Turn 1 anyway.

Neimi + Garcia breaks it. Base Garcia w/ Hand Axe is 15 Atk, base Neimi has 10 Atk, and the wall has 25 Hp.

Sending Neimi up to recruit Colm? Again, Neimi can attack the upper wall on turn 1 and still reach Colm when he appears on turn 2. Since merely stating this is apparently not enough for you to understand, here, I'll use pictures:

The red square is where you put Neimi on the first turn, from which she is able to attack the wall. The green square is where Colm appears on turn 2, and the orange indicates the distance between those two points. 4 squares, and Neimi has 5 move.

So again, why did you not break the wall on the first turn, so that you could go ahead and attack that Brigand with someone at 1 range, in addition to just hitting it with Ross?

1) I didn't want to risk the enemy phase on Ross. Yeah, I could've done it, but no one was really there to recieve it.

2) Fine, I made a counting mistake.

And boohoo, I missed a 94% chance on an enemy. No use crying over spilled milk.

*also missed against the boss and wasted seth's first turn, when you could've used him and/or the unit he rescued to break the walls, rather than leaving them both intact

Oh geez, I missed the boss. Dear God what am I to do? I could've passed Gilliam to Seth if I really wanted to, but again: did it slightly on purpose. Every time after that he hit. Even so, he had nothing better to do on the first turn.

It isn't defined as anything from what I've known. Neither was it bulleting a chapter nor EXP gains.

It has to be defined as something, otherwise the tier list is based on nothing. Going back to the tier list FAQ yet again:

Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure. Normally youd expect a high tier unit to require fairly basic weapons and items while giving great returns in terms of their combat usefulness. Conversely, a lower ranked unit would probably require a lot of resources while giving less satisfactory combat returns.

The reference to turn count is obvious and undeniable.

The mention of "resource expenditure" might be interpreted as including Exp gains, I suppose, even though it only specifically mentions weapons/items. But I've been assuming that a higher Exp gain has no worth in and of itself, as if it does, then Seth absolutely doesn't belong in his own tier. That, and it's been made quite clear in the FE7 tier list that "efficiency" disregards the Exp rank.

If you want to argue that efficiency is low turn count + high Exp gains, then be my guest; I'll absolutely agree so long as Seth is dropped out of his own tier.

But otherwise, yes, efficiency = low turn count.

Seth would still be in his own tier because he doesn't require as much Exp gains and he would still have ways to hold back (rescuing would be an example). Yes, low turn count is the goal. If we're really, REALLY going to hammer that I spent... maybe a turn or two extra, I wouldn't break hell lose. I also said: I could've easily sped it up. Hell, I'll replay C3 again if I must and still prove my point.

So I'm considered guilty because of me trying to help Vanessa, who actually was the one that dragged me in turn counts in C3?

Vanessa? I'm pointing out a few things I saw that reduced your efficiency, and you'll notice that none of them had to do with Vanessa. If Vanessa was slowing you down so much, then go argue her out of toptier or something. But Vanessa has nothing to do with this.

I'm not particularly interested in why you took longer. My point is simply that you did indeed have higher turncounts, and that efficient play entails lower turncounts. Thus, how can you claim that your results match up with efficient play?

What? I don't get what you're saying? I admit that I could've broke the wall but didn't because of other restrictions. Vanessa held me back... 2-3 turns because I was being kind and giving her that little bit of CEXP.

Again, it doesn't mean bullet train through the game.

"Bullet training" would be somewhere along the lines of beating Ch 3 in 5-6 turns, as is easily possible. You took 11 turns; you took twice as long as that. I'm not suggesting that you "bullet through the game," I'm simply suggesting that you don't dilly-dally, either. You could've easily reduced your turncount a bit without going all the way down to "bullet train" level.

Indeed, I could've. Like I said, if I took Vanessa's training that would've slashed three turns, then with Seth (this was an accident) on the boss I could've slashed one or two more. So I've already hit about... 5 more tops, but let's say 3. 8 is about 2 turns more which isn't a major issue.

I also could've went north and just left Ross against that one Brigand. Then what?

Yeah, you could've gone the long way. Why would you do that?

Easy. This would've left Ross with the one Brigand sitting there. In fact, it would leave him with the possibility of two if I left the one in the south chest room alone. Everyone could've just followed Colm and then had someone like Vanessa + Franz or something stay behind long enough to obtain the chest. If warranted, I can attempt to show it.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Lol, Neimi. CATS, did you just decide to pull a lie with that one?

Neimi has 4 base STR, iron bow is 5 Mt. 9 damage. Ross has 5 base Str, Hatchet is 4 mt. They have the same Str. If Ross got 2 levels prior, Ross would have 1 more Str for 10 mt, so Ross would be doing more in reality. Especially since he can pull out a stronger weapon, namely an iron axe.

Lemme guess, you're gonna pull the Colm support. I have to ask then, what are you doing dragging Colm south away from the northern chests?

Will respond to your actual post in due time, but I just wanted to point out that's a pure falacy, Neimi having 10 mt.

EDIT: Err...was looking at weight, not might ;;>> My bad.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kuja

[Colonel M]

Neimi has 10 Atk. He's right.

Again, easy to adjust on the C3 situation. In fact I can almost do the same strategy but knock some of the retarded turns.

[grandjackal]

So you're saying this happened on your game:

If you took 21 turns between Ch 2, 3 and 4, then Ross hitting something on each and every turn [30 x 21] results in 630 Exp gained, putting him at L7. A kill is about +20 Exp over a hit, so in order to make it to 900 Exp, he'd have to kill something on 11 of those 21 turns [55 x 11 = 605], and hit something on every single one of the remaining 10 turns [30 x 10 = 300, +605 = 905).

Correct? Either this is what happened, or you took longer than ~7 turns per chap.

This is implying that out of all the time we can possibly leave people in low HP, that he only got 2 kills?

Yes, both at L5. Note that Gilliam starts at L4, so I'm saying he only gained one level in three chapters, whereas Ross is apparently getting four levels in two chapters (in other words Ross is levelling 6-7 times faster, god only knows how that's justified). And even with that assumed, there's only about a 53% chance that Ross is doubling and Gilliam isn't.

This is implying an absolute handicap on Ross. Gilliam doesn't suddenly pop a speed just from a single level, meanwhile my Ross for some reason has to follow the rules. It is justified, because Gilliam needs 4 levels as well. Ross gets 4 levels much faster than Gilliam does, especially with his performance against the early axe users.

Yes, at absolute average values, Ross has 4 Spd and Gilliam has 3. These are the most likely individual values. However, other values do indeed occur, and they occur often enough to be significant.

http://fea.fewiki.net/feastat.php?character=ross2&game=8e&stat=3

http://fea.fewiki.net/feastat.php?character=gilliam&game=8e&stat=3

Gilliam's chance of getting 4 Spd is 30%. Ross's chance of still having 3 Spd is 24%. The combined odds that neither one of those goes through are about 53%, which means about 47% odds that atleast one of them occurs.

They have the same base. They have the same speed. Ross is leveling up far faster than Gilliam is. Ross is getting more chances faster than Gilliam is at the same percentages. Ross's chances are greater than Gilliam's due to leveling speed. Nevermind this is a rediculous way to measure out ability, you're basically saying Gilliam has a better chance at the speed because he's leveling slower.

Yeah, I brought him up in the point I'm discussing above. Here, you were talking about how most of the bonewalkers use lances and how Ross fighting them (i.e. sending your lowest move unit to fight the enemies all the way across the map from your starting point) is no problem, then you just randomly started talking about Gilliam's move, when the point had nothing to do with Gilliam in the first place.

Him and Gilliam have the same move...You're basically implying Gilliam is entitled to more, despite basically having the same faults.

No, it means people think there's something wrong with my arguments. I've yet to see anyone actually point out the problem.

If people are disagreeing with you, it more often than not means you're wrong. If anything, you've yet to point out why I'm wrong, as people seem to agree with me a tidbit more than you.

Ch 2 Brigands? 22-24 Hp, 3-4 Def, 5-6 Spd?

L2-3 Eirika has 4-5 Str. Doubling with Iron, she does double 7's, leaving them with 8-10 Hp. Base Ross has 9 Atk, so he's doing 5-6 damage. Not enough to finish. He may be able to finish if Eirika uses the Rapier, but making her use up charges of that just so that Ross can finish something, when anyone other than Ross could've done so without needing Eirika to use the Rapier, is fail.

Yet wouldn't the Rapier offer us a more crit chance? With it, she would instead be doing double 10s with a better chance at a crit. This allows Ross clean up, and our other combat units are free to do something else.

Yeah, Garcia has 16 Mt. He does 12-13 damage, leaving them with 9 Hp at best. Ross does 5-6 damage.

Granted. However, you are aware that Ross isn't stuck to a Hatchet, right? Iron axes are available.

Franz? He won't be able to double. He doesn't reach 9 Spd until L5. L3 Franz w/ Iron Sword has 13 Atk, +1 from WTA, so he's doing 10-11 damage. Garcia and Eirika leave them with 8-10 Hp, so Franz is able to finish them after one of those two has attacked, or vice versa. Ross might be able to finish one that got higher values in both Hp and Def after Franz and Garcia both attack it, and assuming that for whatever reason Eirika can't reach that enemy. Other than all of those conditions falling into place, no, Ross can't finish Brigands after these people have attacked them.

Franz is probably our most balanced unit this far. He can dodge thanks to swords, he can take shots as well. He could go and attack if our other guys are up to something. Ross could chip, and Franz could kill on the counter. Or, Franz could wall then counter two guys. Ross could chip, Franz could kill. If Franz took a hit, he could suck down a vulnery, and Ross could chip. Franz would kill one of them, and weaken the other of which Ross can finish off.

Let's not forget lovely Vanessa and ass ugly Gilliam. They both got problems here. Mainly that WTD fucks them over on a scale. With iron, Gilliam has 83 base hit. These guys have about 5-6 AS it seems, meaning they cut it down to 73-71 hit. Then, with WTD they cut it down to 63-61. To give an example, Ross has 93 hit, not facing WTD. Basically he has 83-81 hit. Gilliam will be missing far more often. Gilliam can't even dare to pull out a javy, his hit is reduced by 15, which means he has 48-46 hit. Not only is this pretty likely to miss, also means I have to trade him out as it would mean he would likely miss on the melee.

Vanessa with a slim lance is packing the same might as Ross with the Hatchet. Problem is that WTD reduces it to 8 mt. They also only have about 85 displayed hit, which is roughly the same as Ross. If she misses, Ross actually did more damage. Again, troublesome with the javy, as it would reduce her accuracy by 20, of which is around Gilliam levels. Her avoid is 26=10 due to WTD Ross has 14 avoid since he's not facing WTD. Gilliam has 9 avoid. With WTD, they actually have a +1 acc on him. This would mean Ross has a 15 avoid lead on poor Gilly. Unlike Vanessa, and due to having superior avoid to Gilliam, this means he puts terrain to better use. Axes tend to have 75 acc base. I doubt these brigands have an existing skill or luck stat, so allowing Ross's avoid to cut in would reduce it to 61. Even basic +10 avoid terrain, I cut it down to 51. Something like an armory. Then something like a forest, he can reduce it to 41. This means he can pull anywhere from a +8=18 avoid lead on Vanessa, and always has an avoid lead on Gilliam. Yes, that avoid is taking into account her using a slim lance to not weigh her down. Anything heavier, Ross actually starts pulling an avoid lead.

You sure can not use him, even though he's forced. Colonel seems to think it's a good idea to have Seth rescue somebody so that he can weaken things rather than killing them. Guess who your most useless unit is in Ch 2-3? Then in Ch 4, he's no longer forced. You have to leave two units behind.

Well Gilliam's the most useless, obviously. Constantly facing WTD, lousier range because of it, improving at a slower rate, no fast support with Garcia...Gilliam's basically only good at breaking down walls, of which after I see no reason why we shouldn't do this. Only difference between Seth forging ahead and Seth forging ahead with someone rescued is that more people benefit from the latter, as anyone can easily finish his leftovers, which leaves him free to still forge ahead regardless. Either way Seth is moving forward, just now others are getting stronger as well. Sometimes solo'ing isn't the most efficient. Most Jeigen archtypes have been finding their way to around upper mid levels lately, despite not being as godly as Seth. There is a reason. All this really does really is makes Seth even MORE useful.

---

Neimi + Garcia breaks it. Base Garcia w/ Hand Axe is 15 Atk, base Neimi has 10 Atk, and the wall has 25 Hp.

Sending Neimi up to recruit Colm? Again, Neimi can attack the upper wall on turn 1 and still reach Colm when he appears on turn 2. Since merely stating this is apparently not enough for you to understand, here, I'll use pictures:

The red square is where you put Neimi on the first turn, from which she is able to attack the wall. The green square is where Colm appears on turn 2, and the orange indicates the distance between those two points. 4 squares, and Neimi has 5 move.

So again, why did you not break the wall on the first turn, so that you could go ahead and attack that Brigand with someone at 1 range, in addition to just hitting it with Ross?

Ross with a hand axe is 12 Mt, of which Franz with an iron lance can do the same. Hell, him iron axe and Franz with a Javy can do the same as well. Ross is more flexible at breaking walls than Neimi is. Along with this, this means Neimi could do something more productive, like enter the second room after breaking the wall so next turn she can target the next wall, or one of the two brigands, or in fact recruit Colm anyways. In fact, breaking the wall leaves Ross right and able to attack the brigand in the southern room or the next broken wall.

You have a guy who can do something, and you're basically just refusing to use him even for breaking walls, even though using Ross then would still make the chapter go even faster, as it means I could potentially have more people stacked in the second room, perhaps even breaking the second wall by turn 2.

Yeesh, and I thought I was sandbagging Colm...

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kuja

[Rewjeo]

So you're saying this happened on your game:

If you took 21 turns between Ch 2, 3 and 4, then Ross hitting something on each and every turn [30 x 21] results in 630 Exp gained, putting him at L7. A kill is about +20 Exp over a hit, so in order to make it to 900 Exp, he'd have to kill something on 11 of those 21 turns [55 x 11 = 605], and hit something on every single one of the remaining 10 turns [30 x 10 = 300, +605 = 905).

Correct? Either this is what happened, or you took longer than ~7 turns per chap.

This is implying that out of all the time we can possibly leave people in low HP, that he only got 2 kills?

How did you get that? Seriously?

Anyways, the point is that he'd have to kill more turns than not (lol at Ross doing that) and still hit something on every one of the other turns. NOT likely.

[grandjackal]

It's not even hard to get him kills. You're basing this solely on the fact that you poeple just refuse to let him do anything mroe than if he's hitting and killing. He can improve in a relevent amount of time, and you people refuse not because he's a negative (of which he isn't, he can't since he's forced anyways), but simply because you choose not to use him fully

[Scarlet]

It's not even hard to get him kills. You're basing this solely on the fact that you poeple just refuse to let him do anything mroe than if he's hitting and killing. He can improve in a relevent amount of time, and you people refuse not because he's a negative (of which he isn't, he can't since he's forced anyways), but simply because you choose not to use him fully

Okay, this is getting out of hand. How can you possibly justify Ross getting 11 kills and 10 hits in just 21 turns so he reaches his base class by chapter 5? Actually, since it's basically impossible for Ross to do something in every turn, he'd automatically miss out on some hits (not even counting in possible misses since his hit chances are notably lower than 100), requiring him to get even more kills than that, so, like, 13 kills and 6 hits, which allows him to spend 2 turns missing an enemy or doing something else instead (like attacking a wall or just moving closer to the next enemy with his pitiful 4 move).

13 kills is almost all the enemies in chapter 2 and 3 combined. Oh, and btw, Ross has the third-worst offense on the team and gets doubled by basically everything if he pulls out his iron axe, so if you want to have him snatch a kill with an iron axe because his hatchet wouldn't allow him to and happen to miss the enemy (which is quite possible, especially since iron axes have 10 less hit than his hatchet), Ross actually dies. So he cannot actually really do that, as risking a reset about 13 times is hilarious. Also, this would mean that all other characters basically get next to no kills at all in chapter 2, 3 and most of 4, and I doubt people like Eirika or Vanessa would be very happy about that. This is beyond favoritism; this is simply hilarious.

It's true that Ross' performance is heavily dependant on how soon he reaches his base class, but chapter 5 as a point for this is completely absurd; chapter 6 may be somewhat more possible, but basically still means that he needs to get quite some favoritism to make it. I think Ross reaching his base class in the preparations screen of chapter 7 would be the most realistic.

(This also means that I agree with CATS in most points.)

If you want to prove otherwise, or in other words, that it is very easy to and absolutely justified to get Ross that many kills in such a short time, go ahead and prove it. But provide facts and stats instead of just continueing to "counter" CATS' points with a simple "No u", because this is just annoying.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Raymond

[Colonel M]

C6 would be more realistic.

Also keep in mind that it doesn't have to be based solely on kills. Hits alone give him over 30 CEXP alone which isn't a bad deal. On top of that, C4 gives him a little leverage on being able to nab more levels.

My argument wasn't giving him kills. My argument was "assuming C7 is more than ridiculous".

[Scarlet]

Fine then, chapter 6 is fine with me. I do still think that he needs a little favoritism to make it to his base class until that point, but let's just treat it like a resource that Ross needs to consume. He can have it, but it needs to be remembered when judging him against someone else.

Also, yes, he gets plenty of EXP with just hits as well, but in order to reach his base class without needing notably more turns than normal (or in other words, playing inefficiently), he will also need at least some kills. Although it is far more realistic for C6 - as I said, it's fine with me.

[Colonel M]

Fine then, chapter 6 is fine with me. I do still think that he needs a little favoritism to make it to his base class until that point, but let's just treat it like a resource that Ross needs to consume. He can have it, but it needs to be remembered when judging him against someone else.

Also, yes, he gets plenty of EXP with just hits as well, but in order to reach his base class without needing notably more turns than normal (or in other words, playing inefficiently), he will also need at least some kills. Although it is far more realistic for C6 - as I said, it's fine with me.

Treating it as a stat booster? How is CEXP a "stat booster"? Am I going to suddenly penalize other units in my team barring units like Seth because they need CEXP in order to improve? No, I'm not.

Take a very good look at my playthrough. For now, ignore the turn counts (but only partially). Notice that all I needed was perhaps an extra hit and by C5 I could've had a Level 10 Ross. AND it didn't get in my way at all. CATS only main nitpick about my playthrough was C3's slightly higher turncount, but what he failed to see was they were NOT of Ross's doing:

Turn 7:

Franz just moves up to recieve the Mercenary. This gives Vanessa a chance. Mercenary comes and dents Franz and Franz counterblows.\

Turn 8:

Ross misses with the Hand Axe and I want Vanessa to have a chance of a kill. Oh well, just 1 turn. Vanessa finishes him off.

Turn 9:

Put everyone up close.

Turn 10:

Seth misses. Geez. AND he gets whomped by the Steel Axe. Seth gets him back on the Enemy Phase though, leaving him with 11 HP.

Turn 11:

I hate it took this long. Ross miisses on the Boss. So does Garcia. Seth goes for the killing blow and Eirika takes the throne.

These were the "unecessary's". I could've almost pulled 7, maybe 8 tops if all I did was:

- Remove Vanessa's wanting of the Mercenary

- Gave Gilliam to someone else (or simply someone else take him)

It was probably the only part that I seriously "dilly daddled". CATS pointed out the earlier portion of my playthrough, but to be honest it wasn't because Ross was in the way at all. This is what I'm trying to point out, but no one has really addressed to it.

[grandjackal]

Know what? Turn by turn walkthrough. I'll start with chapter 2.

Preliminary notes-I love how Franz and Eirika managed to get strength blessed. Eirika has 6 Str (2 more than base, she's level 4), and Franz managed a Str in his level up in chapter 1. Anyways.

Turn 1. Eirika visited left house, Moulder the right. Vanessa rescues Ross, reparks near the forest by the mountains. Gilliam 2 spaces south and 1 space left of Eirika. Franz is 2 spaces left of Gil, Seth between them. End turn.

Enemy phase-Bandits bumble about. Gacia dodges, Garcia counters, Garcia moves to hand axe finish.

Turn 2-Moulder takes Ross off of Vanessa, who in turn rescues Garcia, Franz moving in to rescue drop Garcia to his left, reparking below whim to be 1 space above and to the left of the armory. Seth rescues Gilliam, since at best he'll be missing when I can just have Seth do Gilliam's job with a more accurate weapon anyways. Eirika talks to Ross, and is one space above and to the right of Seth's location who is just above the armory. Vanessa and Moulder are to the left and right of Ross. Ross goes to talk to Garcia, now he is above Seth's position. Garcia goes down to the armory to buy an iron sword, an iron axe and sword. End Turn.

Enemy phase-They bumble about some more. Enemy moves in to attack Garcia. Dammit, forgot to re-equip him with the iron axe. Oh well, still hit him for 11 damage. Would have left the bandit at 12 HP rather than 13. Ross goes in for the chip, does his damage and gains 33 exp. Franz lands the finishing blow. Levels up, gains Luck and Resistance. He's now tucked away in the corner of a mountain, as not to give the next bandit a terrain advantage, a space to the right and below the armory. Eirika moves in to be next to him on his left side, trading the iron sword off Garcia. Moulder heals Garcia to his north side. Seth rides to the forest by the mountains where the two brigands show up to counter one the next turn. Vanessa flies next to him, poised to take the south village next turn. Garcia moves south of Ross to give him the iron axe. End turn.

Enemy Phase-Forgot Eirika was Str blessed, ended up killing the bandit that moved in with the Rapier. Normally, she'd leave them at 2-3 HP. Seth misses said bandit. Damned mountain terrain.

Turn 3-Vanessa goes to get the Pure Water. Seth moves back to an appropriate range to let the bandits counter him in open terrain. Garcia moves to teh forest left of the fortress with hand axe to counter the archer. Not much movement otherwise. End turn.

Enemy phase-Ross dodges, yet misses counter. Garcia lands counter, dodges archer. Seth lands counter on next brigand.

Turn 4-Seth goes to beat down the brigand Ross missed (would have been a kill, but no biggie). Garcia moves to fortress to hand-axe one of the brigands, leaving him at 12 HP. Franz moves in to kill the archer, now positioned next to the forest. Eirika hides in forest, as attempting a bandit kill would be a bit risky. I move Vanessa a bit closer, but not too close as to be a rush in finisher in case something goes wrong. End turn.

Enemy phase-Ross counters the weakened brigand. Levels up, gains Str. Weakened brigand goes to attack Eirika predictably, gets killed in response, Eirika remains healthy. Miscalculated move, as I ended up getting Moulder attacked by Bones. Oh well, he's literally the only guy left on the map.

Turn 5-Seth goes to bitchslap Bones for what he did. Moulder heals Ross. Ross could have gotten the kill on Bones, but I opted not to, as it was a lucky break that I got a strength level up. I want to be fair, so I gave the kill to Franz. Besides, I think he would have hit the exp gain cap from that, meaning I wasted a bit of extra BEXP.

Overall-This seems about the right amount of turns, and I think it does better than just letting Gilliam run around, constantly getting hit and having a greater time missing. Only hiccup really was that I forgot to double check Bones's move x.x

Map completed. Seth is level 1 with 28 exp, Eirika level 4 with 66 exp, Franz is 4 with 6 exp, Gilliam is level 4 with 28 exp, Vanessa didn't see action, Moulder has 34 exp base level, Ross is level 2 with 52 exp. Garcia is level 4 with 29 exp.

World map-Bought Garcia and Ross steel axes and Ross a hand axe. Bought everyone who can a javelin to use. Sold Red Gem, have around 5,000 gold.

Chapter 3

Turn 1-Garcia and Neimi chip the door down. Gilliam moves to throw javelin at the bandit, reducing him to 13 HP. Pull out steel axe for Ross, I kill in one blow. Ross levels up, gains HP, Skill and Resistance. Seth goes to rescue Gilliam and moves one space left and up of Ross. Eirika just below him. Franz and Vanessa chuck javelins to break the southern wall. Moulder trades out Vanessa's javelin for the slim lance. End turn.

Enemy Phase-Vanessa counters southern bandit. No one else can do a damn thing. Vanessa lands both hits.

Turn 2. Garcia and Ross break down the next wall, Garcia positioned against the wall with Ross on the pillars. Seth goes to bitchslap the hand axe bandit. Eirika north of Ross to get the bandit's attention. Neimi recruits Colm. Colm heads south. Vanessa and Ross finish up the bandit. Moulder heals Franz. End turn.

Enemy phase-Archer and hand axer attack Seth. Miss. Seth gets tinked by thief, and proceeds to erase thief from existence. Brigand moves south from treasure room to attack Eirika. He misses, Eirika lands 2 counters.

Turn 3-Seth attacks archer north of him so he's next to the upper left barrel. Ross finishes off with hatchet. Eirika moves south of Ross to finish off the hand axer. Franz moves to finish off Eirika's leftovers. Colm picks chest, Vanessa rescues and moves north with chest key in hand. Moulder heals Vanessa. Garcia moves between the left barrels with hand axe in hand.

Enemy Phase-Steel axe bandit and hand axer move in to attack Garcia. Both miss, but Garcia missed the hand axer. Leaves the steeler with 12 HP.

Turn 4-Garcia finishes steeler with iron. Seth moves in to bitchslap the hand axer. Franz rescues Garcia, Ross moves in to kill with Hatchet. Eirika is 2 moves away from the throne. Vanessa moves north to below the doorway of the treasure room and drops colm due north. Neimi sits around. End turn.

Enemy phase-No one's in range.

Turn 5-Seth homes in on the boss with his steel sword in hand. Eirika moves in to the doorway so the merc can't clog it up when he does his duty. Equips Rapier for crit chance. Franz drops Garcia next to Ross to build support, all teamed up on the doorway. Colm and Vanessa opening chests. End turn.

Enemy phase-Merc attacks Eirika. Bazba attacks Seth.

Turn 6-Franz moves in to kill the merc with iron lance. Seth attacks...and misses Bazba. Should have dropped Gilliam. Oh well, Eirika double attacks with Bazba anyways and kills him. Vanessa and Colm pick the rest of the chests.

In conclusion-A turn was wasted due to the fact that I didn't drop Gilliam before fighting Bazba. Would have been better to fight against the mercenary that way, having Gill against the door. Eirika would still have been in range of the throne. However, that was my ONLY throwback, and it was less chance and more I just forgot to do it. So if it weren't for my little brain fart there, I would have had this completed by turn 6.

Levels-Seth level 1 66 exp, Eirika level 5 91 exp, Franz level 4 78 exp, Gilliam level 4, 38 exp (could have been 48 exp), Vanessa at base with 48 exp, Moulder has 56 exp. Ross is level 4, 33 exp. Garcia level 4 with 84 exp.

OK, so level 5 might be BIT overblown for chapter 4, but only a bit. 2 hits, problem cured. Certainly easier than getting Gilliam 4 levels.

Chapter 4 Positions.

Gilliam above Eirika with Seth to his right. Ross to Eirika's left. Lowest point is Franz, furthest left point is Garcia. 2 north of Franz is Vanessa with Moulder in the back.

Turn 1-Ross moves to the north part of the nearby forest, equipping the iron axe. Garcia moves just south of him, equipping iron. Franz moves south to show the bonewalker what's up as he fucks his shit up with a javelin. Vanessa flies down and attacks tree with javy. Artur visits house, Eirika moves south of him and Seth next to her. Gilliam moves between the trees next to the village, Moulder next to him. End turn.

Enemy phase-Zombie attacks Vanessa, counters and lands both shots with javelin. Zombie attacks Ross. Misses, Ross lands the counter. Zombie attacks Eirika. Hits, Eirika reduces him to 8 HP. Levels, gains Skill Luck and Resistance. Bonewalker attacks Franz. Franz murders him and levels. Str, Skill, Speed and Luck.

Turn 2-Ross chucks a hatchet at the weakened zombie of Vanessa's and levels. Gains HP, Luck and Defense, so now I'm working with an essentially slightly screwed Ross. Garcia moves down under Ross to trade out his hatchet for iron, and breaks the tree. Franz moves down to impale a bonewalker with his spear. Vanessa moves to the village to attempt a javelin throw, but misses. Eirika finishes her meal, and Seth insta-blicks a mogall with a javelin. Moulder heals up Eirika, while Artur positions self between Seth and Eirika. Gilliam moves 3 spaces south, end turn.

Enemy phase-Mogall suicides into Seth, Zombie suicides into Ross. Vanessa is assaulted by the bonewalker, apparently pissed by hte breeze her javelin gave off. Enemies move around, zombie reinforcements have arrived.

Turn 3. Ross and Garcia move towards the center bridge, Franz kills the bonewalker. Vanessa visits house to rescue Lute. Lute lights the south bonewalker on fire. Gilliam moves south and chucks a javelin at the zombie over the river. Artur weakens a bonewalker for Eirika, Eirika gladly finishes. Seth javies the nextdoor bonewalker. Moulder hides behind Artur, end turn.

Enemy phase-Artur gets attacked by a zombie, and counters. Zombie attacks Vanessa, who crit kills. Levels up, gains HP, Str, Speed and Luck. Bonewalker attacks Lute.

Turn 4. Ross moves in to kill the zombie Artur weakened. Levels up, gains HP, Str, Skill, Speed(YES!) and Luck. Garcia murderfaces a bonewalker with hand axe and levels up. HP and Str. Artur moves to Moulder's left and sucks down a vulnery. Gilliam chucks a javelin at the zombie in front of Ross. Moulder heals Ross. Lute kills the bpnewalker trying to rape her. Vanessa moves into Mogal range and sucks downa vulnery, equips javelin. Franz moves in to careful range. Eirika and Seth position themselves by Artur. End turn.

Enemy phase-Artur takes a counter. Vanessa is assaulted by a zombie, counter lands both strikes. Ross is attacked by zombie. Ross kills. Mogal attacks Vanessa, she kills.

Turn 5. Ross kills the weakened zombie, levels up. Gains I think HP and Skill. Didn't pay attention. Gilliam chucks javelin at the fetid claw zombie, Artur finishes off. Garcia rescues Artur, Eirika to Garcia's left, Seth rescue dropping Artur to his right. Lute and Vanessa suck down vulneries. Moulder heals Ross. End turn.

Enemy Phase-Weakened zombie attacks Lute, she kills. Zombie attacks Eirika. Another attacks Eirika. The Entombed attacks Franz.

I mop up the rest on the next turn. Moulder levels up, didn't notice his level up, but I think he got HP and Luck. Franz gets the Entombed kill, gains HP, speed and Luck.

Ok, so Ross is at level 7 with a 56 exp gain by Serafew. Partly due to the fact I got screwed on the speed level. If I hadn't, Ross would have had an easier time taking care of business, could have taken on some of the zombie reinforcements by himself (granted not entirely, but he could take Zombie shots). Had I been normal, I'd have gotten perhaps 2 more hits and a kill, which would have gotten Colonel's same results.

However as you see, I still efficiently went through the maps with Ross in tow. Perhaps I did give a tiiiidbit of favoritism for the times I DID get him to base class by Serafew...It's possible normally, but the speed level up is pretty important. Due to leveling speed however, he gets more chances than not. But yeah, he's at least definitely promoting around Serafew, be it at or after it. So this BS about him promoting at chapter 7 is out the window. Chapter 5 he can get to I guess if you got lucky and he got some lucky levels, chapter 6 if he's average or you got a bit screwed.

So...perhaps I was in the wrong. Yet still, how does one gauge it? Main question is, what level will Ross be when Dozla shows up I guess, since this does in a way link to Ross vs Dozla? If he's at least level 12, he's actually pulling an offensive lead outside of crit (unless you count Garcia support).

I could have sworn I easily got Ross to base by Serafew when I play fast...

[Scarlet]

@Colonel: No, I was not saying to treat all EXP he gets like that, I was just saying we should treat the EXP he gets on top of what he'd normally get for his utility a little like that (and not even as much as a stat booster, just a bit), as that also is some sort of favoritism.

@Kuja: Aside from the fact that having Ross attack a melee dude in melee with a Steel Axe (and thus, 0 AS) is pretty dangerous (if Ross misses, he's pretty likely to die), and that a video of your gameplay would probably have been helpful, I do now agree that Ross reaches his base class by C6 then even without favoritism if you use him efficiently. However, no earlier (he may be close to it, but only changes his class at exactly Lv10), though also no later.

As for the Ross vs. Dozla thing, this essentially means that Ross is Lv1 (pirate/fighter) at the beginning of C6. Dozla shows up in the middle of chapter 11 (which means that Ross has about five and a half chapters of leveling before Dozla joins).

Restating the stats, assuming Garcia is dropped after earlygame and assuming Ross gets roughly 1.7 levels per chapter due to still being underleveled for a while:

Lv10 Ross (Pirate):

29.6 HP, 16.0 STR, 8.3 SKL, 9.4 SPD, 15.2 LUK, 8.5 DEF, 3.6 RES, 10 CON

Base level Dozla:

43.0 HP, 16.0 STR, 11.0 SKL, 9.0 SPD, 4.0 LUK, 11.0 DEF, 6.0 RES, 16 CON

I won't list actual weapon values because the have the same goddamn weapon choices.

However, I'd say it's pretty clear that Dozla wins this comparison. He ties with Ross offensively (though in reality, he's actually still superior because of his innate crit bonus and because the only weapon in the entire game that makes him lose AS is the devil axe) and roflstomps him defensively. Ross may be a bit better at dodging stuff, but due to that low SPD, it's still very unreliable, and Dozla has tons of concrete durability - 13.4 HP, 2.5 DEF and 2.4 RES is nothing to laugh at. Ross will still be leveling faster, but Dozla's growths either tie with Ross' or are better (except in LUK), so until Ross gets promotion bonuses, not much catching up will happen, and Ross will probably never match Dozla's durability at all once Dozla starts to level up as well.

So for Ross to be better than Dozla, his performance before Dozla joins would have to have been amazing enough to outweigh the fact that Dozla doesn't need any training or a promotion item. Is it? Well, I'm not saying he's not useful, but I do say he's not useful enough to be better than Dozla's insta-face-pwning.