Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[grandjackal]

@Kuja: Aside from the fact that having Ross attack a melee dude in melee with a Steel Axe (and thus, 0 AS) is pretty dangerous (if Ross misses, he's pretty likely to die), and that a video of your gameplay would probably have been helpful, I do now agree that Ross reaches his base class by C6 then even without favoritism if you use him efficiently. However, no earlier (he may be close to it, but only changes his class at exactly Lv10), though also no later.

As for the Ross vs. Dozla thing, this essentially means that Ross is Lv1 (pirate/fighter) at the beginning of C6. Dozla shows up in the middle of chapter 11 (which means that Ross has about five and a half chapters of leveling before Dozla joins).

Restating the stats, assuming Garcia is dropped after earlygame and assuming Ross gets roughly 1.7 levels per chapter due to still being underleveled for a while:

Lv10 Ross (Pirate):

29.6 HP, 16.0 STR, 8.3 SKL, 9.4 SPD, 15.2 LUK, 8.5 DEF, 3.6 RES, 10 CON

Base level Dozla:

43.0 HP, 16.0 STR, 11.0 SKL, 9.0 SPD, 4.0 LUK, 11.0 DEF, 6.0 RES, 16 CON

I won't list actual weapon values because the have the same goddamn weapon choices.

However, I'd say it's pretty clear that Dozla wins this comparison. He ties with Ross offensively (though in reality, he's actually still superior because of his innate crit bonus and because the only weapon in the entire game that makes him lose AS is the devil axe) and roflstomps him defensively. Ross may be a bit better at dodging stuff, but due to that low SPD, it's still very unreliable, and Dozla has tons of concrete durability - 13.4 HP, 2.5 DEF and 2.4 RES is nothing to laugh at. Ross will still be leveling faster, but Dozla's growths either tie with Ross' or are better (except in LUK), so until Ross gets promotion bonuses, not much catching up will happen, and Ross will probably never match Dozla's durability at all once Dozla starts to level up as well.

So for Ross to be better than Dozla, his performance before Dozla joins would have to have been amazing enough to outweigh the fact that Dozla doesn't need any training or a promotion item. Is it? Well, I'm not saying he's not useful, but I do say he's not useful enough to be better than Dozla's insta-face-pwning.

I've no way to show a video as I have nothing to record with (I play an actual cartridge, I run a mac so I can't actually record dick with my emulators and such, I have no camera of any sort). I will admit though that the steel axe move was pretty ballsy, but there are two reasons for this. 1. It's the first turn, I have a mindset of not caring what happens the first turn. Secondly, this would allow Eirika full move into the second room. Ross's low move being used to take out the nearest guy means those with full move were free to power into the second room, thus how I broke the second wall and was in the main room by turn 2. Well there was a third reason too. I didn't even think of Ross being able to use steel, so I decided to see what effects it could have on gameplay. Moved him in, saw it was possible and had that dumbtard instinct of "it must be done". Basically I just did it for the lulz, and loved the fact I pulled it off.

However, I just want to note that by then, Garcia could easily have an A with Ross (who else is he gonna be supporting? Seriously ask yourself) by then. They'd actually have pretty similar crit. Sure, Dozla stomps him defensively, but I'd also choose to wait until stats come in before we can decide if Ross's durability is "bad" in comparison or simply just "not as good as". In that comparison, it's also seeable that Ross has 11 more avoid thanks to luck, +15 more if we consider A Garcia. Could even grow, if B Gerik is reasonable. So they compare offensively, and while Dozla's more concrete, Ross does have his own ways of keeping alive. On top of this, he's helping someone else perform better. Now look at Dozla's list and ask yourself who he's supporting? The answer is either no one good, or no one that has any real effect fast enough to matter.

Then consider leveling speed. They practically tie on offense already. Ross might not compare in concrete durability, but he does have an actual avoid lead and will just continue to grow one. Quite a sizeable lead no less. Then there is the issue of luck. It's hard to get crit on you, but Dozla has 4 luck. Some enemies WILL have crit on him. Ross will just grow at a far faster rate than Dozla, so sooner or later he will actually be beating Dozla offensively, though he might not ever catch up in concrete durability. He will however always have an avoid lead.

I could promote Ross at whatever level and he'd at least be outdoing Dozla offensively. In fact...

Level 16/1 Ross Berserker

37 HP, 20 Str, 11 Skill, 12 Speed, 17 Luck, 12 Def, 6 Res

Level 6 Dozla

47 HP, 18 Str, 12 Skill, 11 Speed, 5 Luck, 12 Def, 7 Res

So Dozla does have a whopping 10 HP and 1 Res lead, and lol 1 crit. However, Ross has 2 Str, 4 hit, 15 avoid lead on him, and they tie defense. On top of this, Ross could have an A with Garcia, boosting his leads to +3 ATK, 15 hit, avoid and crit. Dozla's only lead now is 10 HP, while Ross could have a lol 5 Str, 19 hit, 14 crit, and an astounding 30 avoid lead. Do I even need to bring in Gerik?

This is also a sort of rediculous comparison, as this implies Dozla got 5 levels and Ross only got 6. Dozla has HP, but soon enough that becomes his only lead while Ross can quickly break him to pieces if he wishes.

[Scarlet]

@Kuja: That's ok, I just said a video would have been helpful.

And yes, Ross can support Garcia, but are we really going to use Garcia past earlygame? Using Garcia together with Ross means there's more competition for good stuff like killer axes, and as far as I have seen in this topic, it is generally considered that Garcia is dropped after earlygame. So with this, one of Ross' advantages over Dozla would suddenly go to hell. And without that support, Ross has no lead on Dozla except for the LUK and the Avd resulting of it, but enemies in this game fail so much that anything not a myrmidon or mercenary still won't be able to pull existing crit rates against Dozla (there are a lot of enemies with exactly 4 Crt, but hardly any with more until the later chapters, but until then, even Dozla will have growed some more LUK or eventually obtained the hoplon guard). And even if Dozla happens to get criticaled by a random enemy he can actually take it. Also, now that I mentioned the hoplon guard, there actually is an item that fixes one of Dozla's somewhat more notable problems - the ability to get criticaled by a few enemies. Who else would honestly want it? Moulder has shitty LUK, but he has anima supports, so he doesn't need it. Other than Dozla, the only other character I can think of that might want the hoplon guard is Knoll, but lol @ Knoll. And even if Knoll is being used together with Dozla for some reason, Knoll probably won't be seeing any combat himself anyway - he'll just spam phantoms and staves and thus never even actually expose himself to enemies to get criticaled.

Also, as I said, yes, Ross will level faster, but Dozla has better growths, so it kinda cancels out.

And yeah, you can promote Ross at any time before Lv20 to get a Dozla with slightly better offense, but still inferior durability. And in fact, this would still make Ross worse than Dozla, if only for the fact that Ross claimed EXP for himself to get this far (every unpromoted unit does this, but it's still a disadvantage against Dozla) and then even used a promotion item, but still isn't clearly superior to Dozla even then. Actually, if Ross decides to promote early, Dozla clearly beats him, as they then have the same leveling speed, but Dozla still has better growths.

[grandjackal]

And thus if I have the same offense, yet better leveling speed, why should I promote instantly?

If enemies are so pathetic that they can't even pull crit on 4 luck, then that means skill generally never goes above 10. Ross could have a 25 cut in enemy accuracy worst case scenario. Even with WTD, Ross could cut swordies accuracy down by 15, and in the case of lancers down by 35. Dozla can't just at times cut enemy accuracy essentially in half, so more often than not he will get hit. Dozla may have better growths and it might cancel out Ross's slightly inferior growths, but it doesn't cut into promotion gains of which could launch him pretty far ahead of Dozla even when he's slightly overleveled as shown. When he's overleveled, Ross would then still have leveling speed on him.

As for Garcia, you'd be surprised how well he compares to Dozla.

Level 18 Garcia

39 HP, 17 Str, 12 Skill, 9 Speed, 8 Luck, 8 Def, 3 Res

Garcia has an offense lead, and an evade lead of 4, a hit lead of 6, Str lead of 1. Dozla at base would have a 3 HP, 3 Def and 3 Res lead, which is sort of creepy. Ross A Support makes this a +4 Str, 21 hit, 19 avoid and 1 crit lead. So Garcia could potentially have a huge offensive lead along with a meta-durability lead, hitting far more often and having the same crit. Dozla'd durability lead a is a nice layer over it, but 2 levels and I promote Garcia. I get this.

Garcia 20/1 Hero

44 HP, 19 Str, 15 Skill, 12 Speed, 9 Luck, 11 Def, 5 Res

So now he has a 1 HP, 3 Str, 4 Skill (8 hit, 2 crit), 3 speed, 7 avoid lead, and all Dozla has to respond with is 1 resistance. On top of this, a Ross support boosts this to a 6 Str, 29 hit, 2 crit, 26 avoid lead. If Garcia's to be dumped passed earlygame, there's absolutely no point in even bothering with Dozla, and I can say that damn well isn't true. Gacia's pretty meh lategame no doubt, but here's the thing. Hero gives C Swords. This means he not only has weapon triangle control over Dozla, he has it with relevent weapons. To reach 12 AS, Dozla needs to be level 10. Ross with his faster leveling speed could get there even before promotion.

Let's not just so quickly write off Garcia just to sandbag Ross. Hell, this hurts Dozla too. Garcia's his only viable support...

[CATS]

Wow. tl;dr. I'll say this about getting Ross to L1 by the start of Ch 6, though. 57 enemies in Ch 2-5; once again about 9 guys on the field in each chap, so it's 6-7 kills per person if split evenly.

Turncounts?

Let's say 5 for Ch 2, as both me and Colonel got 5 turns here. Ross can't do anything on turn 1 or turn 2 (needs to recruit Garcia), so the chapter is effectively 3 turns for Ross. Then 8 turns each for the other 3 chaps (Ch 3, 4, 5). This gives us 29 turns total across four chapters; average 7.25 turns per chapter. Pretty good I think.

Ross gets average ~55 Exp for killing, so give him his 6 kills somewhere in there (it's technically 6.3 repeating per char, but Ross is your worst fighter, so I think it's fair to just give him 6) and he's gained ~330 Exp; L4 with 30 Exp. From here he needs 570 Exp from hitting in order to reach L10, which means 19 hits. He has effectively 26 turns on which to act (remember he's pre-occupied for the first two turns of Ch 2 and it's impossible for him to reach any enemies on the first turn of Ch 5). He needs 6 kills and 19 hits to level, with basically no enemy phase (with offense that is comparable to Neimi and defense that isn't much better, there is really no excuse for ever putting Ross in front or allowing him to be attacked), so 25 player phases, across 26 turns.

Much more plausible than L10 by the end of Ch 4, I agree, since he actually has one turn left over to spare, but I still think it's sort of iffy. He can only fail to act on one player phase ever; if he has even two where he's not hitting something, he misses his mark. I mean, just factor in his odds of whiffing an attack. His average Skl across all 10 Trainee levels is 3.55, and average Lck is 9.8, so 97 average hit w/ the Hatchet. Let's just say random Brigand #17 has 15 Avo (7 Spd/1 Lck); Ross has 93.7% hit against that guy (in other words, a little less than 19 times out of 20), so across 25 player phase attacks, the odds are that he will miss at least once. And that's without considering that defensive terrain is abundant in Ch 2 and 4, pushing enemy Avo averages up a bit.

Anyways, going back to Ross vs Dozla. Even if we assume Ross makes it to Fighter/Pirate one chapter earlier, cool, he gets to be like 2 levels higher when Dozla shows up (Raymond compared him at L10, and my earlier comparison had him at L8, and that comparison was based on smash's even earlier comparison which also pegged Ross at L8). I don't really think it's going to tip the scales. Anyone got arguments for Ross > Dozla, rather than when Ross reaches base class? The situation as I see it is Ross sucks earlygame, Dozla wins midgame, then Ross wins lategame, so Dozla wins or Ross sucks for most of the game.

Edited September 9, 2009 by CATS

[grandjackal]

I could actually say Ross is comparable to Vanessa at join time actually. Sure she has her utility, but combat-wise they're pretty damn similar. Both get 2HKOd, Vanessa needs her Slim Lance to do any real damage of which she does a grand total of 9-1 from WTD damage to them, minus whatever defense they may have. However, Vanessa facing the WTD does have it's effects felt. Vanessa has a base avoid of 25. Quite impressive. Ross has a base avoid of 14. WTD shaves off 10. Holy crap, Vanessa actually has similar avoid to Ross! If Ross sucks at survival, so does Vanessa. In fact, here's an advantage Ross can tap into that Vanessa can't, terrain! Ross can use the armory to boost his avoid by 10, forest by 20 with +1 def, Fortress for...I think it's 20 avoid again but +2 defense of which the only thing seperating Vanessa and her WTD and Ross is 2 HP, Ross would have better avoid.

Accuracy? Ross has a base with Hatchet of 93. Vanessa has a base of 101 with her slim lance. Cut that down by 10 due to WTD, and holy shit, Ross has better hit as well. Even worse, Ross may have better range. Hatchet damage at his base is 9, Vanessa with Javelin is 11-1 from WTD. She has 81 base accuracy with teh Javelin. Already her accuracy is worse, WTD reducing it to 71. With general 5-6 AS, this means their avoid would be 10-12. Meaning it could be reduced to 61-59.With Ross, worse he suffers is it's reduced to 81. It also reduces her speed by 6, reducing her speed to 5. Not only is she not doubling, she lost 12 avoid. So her avoid with the javelin is 13, minus 12 brings it down to....1....BAHAHAHAHA! With enemy accuracy with an iron axe, I'm going to venture a guess saying they have like next to no skill. Alone at basic, Ross would reduce their accuracy to 61. Armory down to 51, Fortress and Forest down to 41. Ross has ways to actually make the 2 RN system work to his favor. Vanessa is SOL.

Vanessa might double with the slim, but Ross has the benefit of having range be his main form of offense. He could attack at range, then the enemy comes to him and he'd have done 2 more damage than Vanessa with Slim. Vanessa has better direct offense, but Ross can get his kills in a far safer manner.

Oh what? Gilliam? Ok, let's bring him up. Gilliam has a base avoid of 9. This means he CAN'T break the deal of WTD, as the enemy will actually have a +1 hit advantage on him. This means Ross has a 15 avoid lead on him constantly, since both can use terrain as well. It is true though that Gilliam basically is as strong as Garcia. He'd have 16-1 from WTD, but either way this is 2RKOing. However, he is at a disadvantage that Vanessa doesn't have, "not doubling". So when Gilliam misses, I am not as forgiving. How does his accuracy stand? Well his base hit is 13. With an iron lance, it's 93. This looks a lot like Ross's hit actually. However, Ross's weapon is a ranged weapon, and Gilliam's isn't, meaning he can't avoid counters or pull the "I attack at range, they come to me and smoke them" deal. With enemy avoid, it goes down to 83-81, +WTD it's 73-71. This also means that as terrain enters the equation, it gets exponentially worse for Gilliam. Example, brigands on mountains reduce him to about 50 hit, while Ross still has around the 60s. Due to the 2 RN system, this is a bigger hit win then it lets on. Since his weapon is also melee, he has less opportunities to hit, and if he DOES miss it means he has to eat a counter. Enemy on the next turn attacks, basically meaning for one fuck up, he eats two attacks. Ross only has to eat 1 if he fucks up, and he fucks up less than Gilliam does.

What? Gilliam has range? Well first off it means he'd be taking it from Vanessa, unless you want to waste someone's turn by buying it in het armory. Secondly, he might as well not have it. His base accuracy with it is 78. Enemy avoid brings it down to 68, WTD down to 58. This is dangerously close to half and half, and terrain would make it again exponentially worse as now he's dipping to where 2 RN system works against him.

In conclusion, I'll have to say this. Being comparative to Vanessa in combat when she goes melee and you are at range is more impressive then you think. Pretty much just as durable anyways. Then with Gilliam having non-existent range and accuracy issues of which would punish him to the point of reducing the importance of his durability ALONG with basically being stuck with melee, I would conclude that Ross is actually not the worst combat unit on your team. That would be Gilliam.

As for Neimi, their ranged damage is pretty similar. However, Ross has stronger ways to break walls, 1-2 range and can counter melee. He might not be your best offensive unit, but I wouldn't say he's the worst either.

Also note that he's improving faster than both these people. You say equal kills for all, when I say to the victor goes the spoils. Ross will just naturally be able to get more kills, because he's far more capable in his own ways.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Kuja

[CATS]

Vanessa still has better offense than Ross, even in their join chap when all the enemies are axes. They have 3-4 Def so Vanessa doubling w/ Slim Lance is 8-10 damage, while Ross does 5-6. And her defense against them is better; while both of them are getting 2HKO'd, Ross can get doubled. Then you get past Ch 2 and the enemies aren't almost 100% axes anymore.

Ross > Gilliam is lulz. "omg, gilliam misses." Yeah, his acc sucks against the two Brigands who show up on Peaks, no doubt. Everyone's does, they're getting +40 Avo. The best way to deal with those is to let them come down off the Peaks before engaging them, or just send Seth after them. Neither Gilliam nor Ross should bother trying to fight them while they're camping on Peaks. Then against Brigands who aren't getting massive terrain bonuses, Gilliam's hit is like mid-70s, while his Atk is also nearly twice as high as Ross's. I don't need to explain how Gilliam is more durable. And once again, the % of axe enemies in each chapter decreases the further you go into the game.

To the victor go the spoils? If you go by that logic then Ross sure as hell isn't getting to his base class anytime soon. Vanessa and Gilliam can atleast finish Brigands after Garcia or Eirika has attacked them. Ross can't even do that.

Edited September 10, 2009 by CATS

[Colonel M]

Actually... I don't see much evidence that Garcia IS dropped after earlygame. In fact, I barely see the reason.

Think back to Garcia: sure he cannot double, but what other outstanding qualities perk out of interest? Fire affinity, Axes, and enough brute Str to prove it. I'll admit Garcia not doubling is a slight issue; however...

Look back to some of those stats I proposed. Now Garcia, without any support whatsoever, has 22, nay 23 Atk (10% chance of not getting it, srsly). That's quite a bit of power considering a lot of enemies early on don't perk up that much HP | Def figures. Add something like B Ross and we're looking at something that's pretty serious:

25 Atk, 14% Crit, 29 Avoid, 32 HP, 6.5 Def

Doesn't sound very serious until you think about it. Not many units actually BRAG this kind of power. To put it into perspective: Cavaliers have 27 HP | 8-9 Def. Pretty serious. In order to ORKO with doubling taken into account, you would need a grand total of 23 Atk. So let's see who can actually reach this.

- Given that Seth can.

- Ross can 2RKO.

- Franz w/Steel Lance gets weighed down by 4 with a Steel Lance, which would require a Level 13 Franz in order to double (they have 4-5 AS and by that point Franz has 13 Spd).

It's not 100% easy to seriously pull a ORKO without some serious help. Garcia can at least guarantee 2RKOes often.

Lategame... he does deteriorate, but even so not as much as you'd think. Brave Axe, Garm, and Brave Sword are accessible at this point: 3 good weapons that are available and, probably, best in his hands. Remember that Ross can double "decently" and Dozla... well he might be the one competing for such weapons.

Steel Axe!Garcia (A Ross): 33 Atk. That's very likely to 2RKO often unless you pull some ridiculous durability.

---

Again, point being I'm not sure if dropping Garcia is exactly "necessary". In fact, using Garcia might not be so much of a bad thing to the team.

[grandjackal]

Garcia always was a bit underrated in that sense.

Vanessa still has better offense than Ross, even in their join chap when all the enemies are axes. They have 3-4 Def so Vanessa doubling w/ Slim Lance is 8-10 damage, while Ross does 5-6. And her defense against them is better; while both of them are getting 2HKO'd, Ross can get doubled. Then you get past Ch 2 and the enemies aren't almost 100% axes anymore.

Why would Ross get doubled? None of the enemies have 7 AS. On top of this, Ross could do his damage at range, while Vanessa has to do hers at melee. With a javy, she'd actually be doing similar damage to Ross with far worse accuracy. With a range shot, then on enemy counter, Ross could do 12 damage. Vanessa? She needs to land generally 4-6 hits. This means she could face anywhere from 2-3 counters. Since it's far easier to actually hit her thanks to WTD and lack of terrain, I'd say the fact Ross can avoid counters to do his damage is far safer then having her risk her neck many a time over. Especially since as you say, they get 2RKOd.

Ross > Gilliam is lulz. "omg, gilliam misses." Yeah, his acc sucks against the two Brigands who show up on Peaks, no doubt. Everyone's does, they're getting +40 Avo. The best way to deal with those is to let them come down off the Peaks before engaging them, or just send Seth after them. Neither Gilliam nor Ross should bother trying to fight them while they're camping on Peaks. Then against Brigands who aren't getting massive terrain bonuses, Gilliam's hit is like mid-70s, while his Atk is also nearly twice as high as Ross's. I don't need to explain how Gilliam is more durable. And once again, the % of axe enemies in each chapter decreases the further you go into the game.

Forests reduce Gilly to 50's even at melee, Gilliam has more to fear than just mountains. On top of that, the enemy density is so low that Gilliam's durability is pointless. Chances are at this point in the game, people aren't facing more than one enemy an enemy phase. I could care less if Gilly's more durable, his tanking is pointless here. All he has to do is hit things, and he can't do it as reliably. On top of this, he, according to HP and the defensive examples you have given, might not even 2RKO. On top of this, Ross can actually find ways to actually dodge things. At times, Ross can take care of things in 2 turns of which he would only be countered twice which at times since he can cut enemy accuracy down to 40-50 due to terrain and lack of WTD can most likely dodge something. This means he could actually take care of something on his own. Gilliam on the other hand might have to take 2-3 hits to take down one guy due to his lack of good range and having to go melee. I doubt he's not getting 4RKOd, meaning that even with his "better durability" considered, he'd still be killed in 2 rounds just like Ross would because of his Hatchet. Since Gilliam at times will miss more often than Ross, and due to basically being stuck to melee means he would be far greater punished, I'd say Ross is a safer bet than Gilliam. Nevermind he will level faster than these two to improve far faster. Not that Gilliam really improves.

To the victor go the spoils? If you go by that logic then Ross sure as hell isn't getting to his base class anytime soon. Vanessa and Gilliam can atleast finish Brigands after Garcia or Eirika has attacked them. Ross can't even do that.

He's just as accurate as Vanessa with slim and is always more accurate than Gilliam, I question this line of thinking.

[Colonel M]

Okay, I don't want to pull a whole lot of hype, naturally, so what I'm going to do is sit here and hope that I don't sound completely retarded. Here goes.

Garcia rising.

I know, I slightly contradicted myself saying this now. But hear me out. The main question that seriously helps support Garcia's rise is this: how often does a character reliably ORKO? Keep in mind this isn't FE7 folks, this game is a bit different. Though AS numbers are relatively low, durability is not. Well, to the point where it's of a major question. I'd say Garcia reliably 2RKOes easily (or should I say 2HKO to be more precise). Now the weight of it comes down to this: do we value 2HKOes?

There's more to it though. Some things that actually help his AS. First off, I've mentioned Brave Sword, Axe, and Garm. That's 3 items. Then here's the more... cringing part. Speedwings. Now think very hard about this. Who, seriously, benefits from such an item? Think back to those who, again, have serious Spd issues. The biggest competitor, in my eyes, would have to be... Eirika Duessel. That's about it. Sure, feel free to point out others, but despite that it's not like Garcia is in desperate NEED of it if we say that 2RKOes are just as efficient. Remember: that's still killing 1 unit, possibly more, in a turn.

[CATS]

Why would Ross get doubled? None of the enemies have 7 AS. On top of this, Ross could do his damage at range, while Vanessa has to do hers at melee. With a javy, she'd actually be doing similar damage to Ross with far worse accuracy. With a range shot, then on enemy counter, Ross could do 12 damage.

They can definitely get 7 AS. You might have a run where none of them get it, since enemy stats are random, but it's quite possible. Two of 'em got it on my most recent run. I'll play Ch 2 again tomorrow and restart a few times to see what values I get.

Ross having range is a fair point, but if not getting countered is that important, then as you said, Vanessa has the option as well. Yeah, her range is worse than Ross's, but her melee's better. And remember that this is just Ch 2; basically Ross's best situation, as enemy axes become less common the more you play.

Enemy phase for Ross isn't worth much since his counter is literally the weakest you have. An enemy attacking him would've taken more damage from any other PC's counter. It's definitely best to just not let Ross get attacked, even if he's able to survive a hit. And his enemy phase is similar to Vanessa's anyways, so w/e.

*wall of text about gilliam*

Ross's accuracy isn't perfect. Forests drop his hit too.

Gilliam's durability is pointless? Are you seriously saying this? Yeah, enemy density is low, but everyone is also dying in 2-3 hits.

He's just as accurate as Vanessa with slim and is always more accurate than Gilliam, I question this line of thinking.

Yeah, he's more accurate than Gilliam vs axes, but their accuracy is similar vs other enemy types (or Gilliam is considerably better against swords) and Gilliam stomps him in the rest of everything.

Garcia rising?

Well, first off, if you're going to use Garcia, then I wouldn't assume Ross is in play. Much the opposite. Ross provides more competition for the Brave Axe/Garm which are Garcia's lategame lifesavers, the Speedwings that you cited, and perhaps most importantly, creates double promotion issues. You either have 4 Hero Crest units (or you drop one of Josh/Gerik, which is also fail; Joshua's in the same tier as Garcia and indeed ranked above him, so if Garcia's worth keeping around, so is Josh, and then Gerik is obvious), or you have 3 Hero Crest units and 2 Ocean Crest units. In both cases you're short by two promo items, and there's only one Master Seal, so only one of those problems is getting fixed.

Speaking of Joshua, someone want to remind me why him and Forde dropped out of High to begin with?

Back to Garcia......

Brave Sword? Garcia gets a C in Swords on promotion, not a B, and he's rarely doubling so it's tough for him to build that sword rank up. And there's lots of others who can use the Brave Sword anyways.

Brave Axe and Garm, yeah, these are weapons that make lategame Garcia worthwhile. He's not without competition for them, though. Dozla and Duessel exist and both are guaranteed to be able to use the Brave Axe. Eph Duessel can S Axes for Garm pretty easily, and Dozla might be able to if he was used midgame (starts with a B iirc). Yeah, lategame Dozla sucks and all that jazz, but the thing is, I'd argue he might be worthwhile if he can get his hands on Brave Axe/Garm. Haven't really looked at his offense with either one of those, but they both go a good ways towards fixing his offense, as his main problem is, like Garcia, his crappy speed.

Speedwings? Almost everyone wants one of those. The only people who don't really want one are the really fast sword units. Even Franz might appreciate the Ch 9 Speedwing to help him double things with Steel, since as you mentioned, he's still not capable of reliable doubling for quite a while. Then you have to consider the possibility of Spd screwage, so that a unit who might be able to double normally, like Forde or Artur, no longer can. With a 10 man team the odds are very high that someone is getting below average Spd. So I don't really think the existence of Speedwings helps Garcia's case very much.

If you want Garcia to rise, who would you see him going over? You cite his ability to 2HKO everything, but from what I'm seeing most of the units above him in upper mid have pretty nice offense themselves (Saleh, Innes, Artur, etc.).

Edited September 10, 2009 by CATS

[Scarlet]

Okay, even if we assume that Garcia is worth to use past earlygame (which I actually agree with, btw), it may still not be a good idea to use him and Ross together as it would create, as CATS pointed out, promotion item issues. There is of course the question if Colm really wants to be promoted (which didn't really get answered yet as far as I noticed), because if Colm doesn't mind waiting for a while, Ross going pirate might actually fix this problem. However, even then, Ross' only advantage over Dozla would be offense. However, let's say that for the fact that Ross needs a promotion item, Dozla is allowed to use one upgrade item as a compensation. What do we want to give to Dozla? Should we give him a Dracoshield to make him even tankier? Or a speedwing to help fix his doubling issues against a couple of the slower enemies? This compensation would either reduce Ross' offense lead to unnoticeable amounts again, or put Dozla's amazing tankiness against Ross' slightly better offense.

Actually, let's compare them against some enemies now, shall we?

Chapter 12 (Eirika):

Lv10 Ross, B Garcia (you don't want to ahead and tell me they already have an A support at this point, do you?):

29.6 HP, 16.0 STR, 8.3 SKL, 9.4 SPD, 15.2 LUK, 8.5 DEF, 3.6 RES, 10 CON

Iron Axe: 26.0 Atk, 109.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 9.4 AS, 44.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 29.0 Atk, 99.2 Hit, 14.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 30.0 Atk, 94.2 Hit, 19.15 Crt, 4.4 AS, 34.0 Avd

Base level Dozla (+ Speedwing):

43.0 HP, 16.0 STR, 11.0 SKL, 11.0 SPD, 4.0 LUK, 11.0 DEF, 6.0 RES, 16 CON

Iron Axe: 24.0 Atk, 99.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Steel Axe: 27.0 Atk, 89.0 Hit, 20.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

Battle Axe: 28.0 Atk, 84.0 Hit, 25.5 Crt, 11.0 AS, 26.0 Avd

randomBonewalker (Iron Lance): 15 Atk, 90 Hit, 2 Crt, 4 AS | 29 HP, 9 Avd, 5 Def, 2 Res

IronAxe!Ross ORKOs (2RKOs with heavier weapons), gets 6RKO'd at 36 DHit in return (46 with heavier weapons)

Dozla ORKOs with any weapon, gets 15RKO'd at 54 DHit in return

Want a tougher enemy? Here we go.

randomBael (Sharp Claw): 26 Atk, 80 Hit, 3 Crt, 4 AS | 33 HP, 10 Avd, 8 Def, 2 Res

IronAxe!Ross ORKOs (2RKOs with heavier weapons), gets 2RKO'd at 36 DHit in return (46 with heavier weapons)

Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up (leaves at 1 HP with Iron Axe), gets 3RKO'd at 54 DHit in return (turns into a 4RKO whenever Dozla's DEF increases by any amount, for example when standing on a forest or Peak)

Even tougher? Look at this.

randomGargoyle (Javelin): 19 Atk, 77 Hit, 3 Crt, 7 AS | 29 HP, 15 Avd, 9 Def, 2 Res

Ross 2RKOs with any weapon, gets 4RKO'd at 23 DHit (33 when using heavier weapons; turns into a 3RKO if his DEF happens to round down)

Dozla ORKOs with any weapon, gets 8RKO'd at 41 DHit

Monsters are weak. How 'bout a cavalier from C13?

randomCavalier (Steel Sword): 18 Atk, 93 Hit, 4 Crt, 7 AS | 31 HP, 18 Avd, 9 Def, 3 Res

Ross 2RKOs with any weapon at at best 81 DHit, gets 4RKO'd at 59 DHit (69 with heavier weapons; turns into a 3RKO if his DEF happens to round down)

Dozla ORKOs with Steel Axe and up at 61 DHit, gets 8RKO'd at 77 DHit

I don't know about you, but aside from Dozla's somewhat unstable hit rate, he looks a hell of a lot better to me.

@CATS: Actually, sword rank shouldn't be an issue to Garcia if he wants to use the Brave Sword. Iron Blades are available and buyable, and he can use them without AS loss for the extra WE without worsening his offense at all. Even if he doesn't double, he just needs 25 hits with the blade to reach B swords, or 13 kills. This shouldn't take very long to achieve.

[Mekkah]

Dozla has risen above Ross.

[Dat Nick]

(which didn't really get answered yet as far as I noticed)

I DID point out the fallacy of Joshua not having any reason to promote if we're banning Colm for doing so, since his combat parameters are barely any better and combat's all he has, and if Joshua doesn't get the right to promote he's going way down, but I don't think that's reasonable, so let's not do that. I only pointed it out to shut down Jackal's operation sandbag Colm.

I see Ross hitting 20 roughly the time Ocean Seals are buyable in the secret shop, so I'm not seeing it as a tragic issue if he doesn't get the first one.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Joker

[grandjackal]

It was more the fact that Colm doesn't necessarily have to promote to stay useful. But eh...

My cases are always hopeless, aren't they? x.x

[Scarlet]

@Joker: I was rather trying to say "I didn't see any definite answer that was being agreed on by several people". ^^'

But anyway, as I have shown, Ross is inferior to Dozla even if he indeed gets to keep his Garcia support, so I think this case can rest for now unless someone comes up with a new point.

[Tino]

You haven't shown anything. You've provided a comparison at one point in the game, the point where Dozla is at his best, even.

You neglected Ross's earlygame existence and also failed to evaluate any situations post Ch12.

I'm not arguing anything, I'm merely stating you haven't shown/proven anything at all.

[Scarlet]

...why is everyone here so nitpicky about small miswordings of phrases? I mean, I know I haven't gone into lategame into greater detail, but that's because I don't think it's necessary.

I wasn't neglecting Ross' earlygame existance. By now we should all know how Ross fares before Dozla shows up (he can be used without bothering the team much, but he isn't very useful either), so I didn't think it was necessary to restate it yet another time.

And about lategame: Ross levels faster, but Dozla has better growths. Ross may eventually catch up on offense, and maybe even on defense (but not HP) very late in the game, but until then, Dozla was clearly better. Dozla beats Ross for more chapters than Ross beats him and Ross isn't doing much useful stuff early in the game either while sucking up EXP, so I say this is proof enough that Dozla is better until someone proves otherwise.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Raymond

[grandjackal]

Ross is rather null earlygame. He's not bad enough to be a detriment (as has been repeatedly shown), though it is true that he's not useful enough to help get through any faster. However, it shows that raising him is not troublesome by any means. Yeah Dozla has better growths to help combat Ross's faster leveling speed, but how fast are they leveling? We take your comparison that Ross is level 10 when he shows up. Ross would be gaining around 30 exp a kill, would you agree? Dozla wouldn't be gaining quite that much, but let's say he's getting 10 exp a kill. Ross is getting 3 times the experience Dozla is. Basically for every 3 levels Ross gets, Dozla gets 1. Ross as you have shown is actually quite comparable offensively with Dozla at that point in time, save crit. Ross however can have a possible B support with Garcia by then to increase the avoid, hit and power lead, while also closing the crit lead. Ross has avoid, though it is true that Dozla has a steep win in defense. However, the fact I trained up Ross and already he's offensively comparable to a dude who's 10 levels higher than him is pretty impressive. On top of this, there's a possible support to be built with Gerik as well, since he has a B open. Dozla on the other hand has no useful supports in the least, due to them all being crap or very ineffective (move difference, roll difference, support speed). So Ross has a way to close the defensive gap in a way using avoid. Since Ross has actually viable support options, Ross's already existent avoid lead will become steep in his favor. On top of this, his presence benefits the team, as he's helping two other people.

Also, you seem to forget about promotion bonuses. They help pull on extra padding to Ross's stats after his fast leveling stats to die down. Yeah it's an ocean seal, but here's the thing. Colm doesn't need it to be useful. Sure, he'd like one, but he doesn't need it necessarily. Consider it a benefit of being a thief. On top of this, usually by the time he hits 20, one becomes buyable anyways. God knows we have money crammed up the ass and we could buy every football franchise the world has ever known, so I fail to see why it should be counted against him. On top of that, it's not like we'll be using a team to fit with all the promotion items we have by then (Orion's Bolt), so it's not like the cost can't easily be paid for. But let's get him to promotion. Since this is 10 levels and Dozla gains 1 for every three, I'll put Dozla at level 4.

Ross 10/20/1 Berserker

HP: 40, Str: 21, Skill: 12, Speed: 13, Luck: 19, Def: 13, Res: 7

Dozla level 4

HP: 45, Str: 17, Skill: 12, Speed: 10, Luck: 4, Def: 11, Res: 6

As a reference, here is Ross's promotion bonuses to Berserker

4 HP, 1 Str, 1 Skill, 1 Speed, 2 Def, 2 Res.

So Dozla has a 5 HP lead. Impressive. However, Ross has a stunning 4 Str, 4 Speed, 15 Luck, 2 Def, 1 Res, 5 hit, 23 avoid lead. Even at level 5, If I gave Dozla a Speedwing, an Energy Ring AND a Dracoshield would not be performing as well as Ross naturally. On top of this, Ross should have an A with Garcia by now (who can be shown to basically be superior to Dozla practically forever save for the BRIEF moment Dozla shows up). This can increase his leads by +3 Str, 15 hit, avoid and crit. I could bring in Gerik, but do I even need to at this point? Hell, Ross actually has an offense lead as soon as he hits level 12. I could promote him then, Dozla would still need a speedwing, and would still be losing offensively due to less strength, accuracy, and support options. Ross would still have an avoid lead thanks to still superior speed and astoundingly more luck and support options working with his affinity.

Let's also not just dump some of his game before Dozla shows up. There are times when having a Pirate on hand is very commando. Since it's agreed he's promoting before Waterside Renvall, how did no one think of an easy way to beat it with the help of our beloved pirate? You see, in waterside Renvall, at the starting position there is a little river with a bridge. Ross can cross that river with Vanessa to instantly go north above the impassable mountain ridge. This way, Vanessa isn't alone in this endeavor to take out the soldiers, the merc and the 2 archers by the boss (another reason Ross might actually be better for the job than Vanessa). The faster I take all these guys out, I could actually then just freely fly Eirika over the mountain to rapier the cavalier boss, getting the chapter done that much faster. Then, Port Kiris. There is a whole water front between you and the boss. Bunch of pirates too, and they want at that village. Vanessa and Tana could fly about to attack the pirates, but that is dangerous. They'd have trouble hitting, due to WTD on top of a disadvantage in terrain. They got hand axes too, meaning if they want to counter, they have to further destroy their accuracy with javelins. Ross can not only jump into the water itself for the avoid bonus, he has an accurate 1-2 range weapon as to actually hit these bastards with. Gotta love the Hatchet. Then, he can go south to pester the southern ranged enemies from the water with a hand axe, or the hatchet still. They'd have a hard time hitting him, and he'd always counter. This is basically something he can do all by himself, thanks to being a pirate prior to Dozla. On top of that, he is simply the best at it, because the others have to deal with bow weakness or WTD (there are plenty of bow guys in the southern area). Keep note that his presence prior is also helping Garcia perform better due to their support. With Garcia's monsterous strength growth and Ross's insane level speed padding his str to psychotic levels, I wouldn't be surprised if there were mages they could just pop out of existence in one shot. I won't say for sure though until enemy stats are finalized. Ephraim Deussal's chapter is a minor point as you need to get to stairs to enter the ocean, but I suppose attacking the warships and then attacking landlubbers from the ocean with a hand axe is nice. It is minor though.

So no, not all of Ross's existence prior to Dozla showing up is fail (especially when he's able to compare to his dad at that time), just because you say so. There are times when having a pirate around is actually pretty damn helpful, and his presence helps make a pretty good guy perform even better. Then Dozla shows up, Ross easily able to compare or even beat Dozla offensively, easily able to pretty quick if he isn't already, despite the fact that Dozla is in fact tougher if we ignore the fact that Ross is quite a bit more dodgier and accurate, along with helping someone else on the team, AND possibly starting to help a second. Ross then promotes and whips Dozla so bad that his superior growths mean dick.

Dozla's superior growths would matter if they were like twice what Ross has, but they aren't. They're simply sorta better, and Ross is comparing statistically just at level 10 Pirate in speed and Str, actually beating him in things like acc and avoid. He's indeed tougher, but it's not like Dozla is whooping him on a Percival vs Ilian cavs level.

[CATS]

Ross is null earlygame? No, he's arguably your worst unit, or if not, then your worst is Neimi and Ross wins second place. You don't want to use him early on.

[grandjackal]

Ross is null earlygame? No, he's arguably your worst unit, or if not, then your worst is Neimi and Ross wins second place. You don't want to use him early on.

I'd say him and Gilliam are arguable still due to Ross's far superior range and Gilliam's durability meaning dick up until Ross is base class anyways due to low enemy density, and that Gilliam is far worse punished for his mistakes than Ross.

However, you seem to have null and negative confused. Yeah, he's not among our best. This much is true. But he is also not slowing us down by any means. Therefore he is not a negative. He is null at worst.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I just realized... Garcia is basically dorcas with more speed. And dorcas is high tier now after centuries of being considered among the worst.

[Colonel M]

K, let's do some reviewing shall we?

First off, what is the problem with assuming RossXGarcia? It's a very valid support. It's a very beneficial support. This "hogging" shit needs to stop. Let's recall a few things: Ross is Pirate -> Berserker. End of story. I don't even want to hear the slimmest "Ross is going Hero" because it's inefficient due to cutting into Hero Crest uses and, again, an excuse to keep him where he is. So, any comments on that will simply be ignored. Furthermore, look at a 20/3 Ross Spd: 14. If Duessel has enough AS to double roughly >50% of the relevant enemies, then I don't see why Ross will be wanting weapons such as Garm or the Brave Axe in general. In other words, another "moot" point. Then due to that clearing up yet another issue of needing the Speedwings that much more. Case in point: fine to assume.

Now, the Speedwings. As I've said it's not something that I plan to bank my entire argument on anyway. It's very simple: 2RKOing is not joking around. Then we recall to Garm and Brave Axe: I've stated these weapons are fine to assume. Then the Hero Crest ordeal; if we assume that Garcia is taking the Speedwings, then all I can say is "whatever" to the logic presented. After promoting in C15 there's 14 AS; your magic number if I'm not mistaken. Despite that, we already scratched off Ross. Even so, saying that a promotional item has virtual opposition (i.e. favoritism) is a not a solid argument to back up on. Gerik and Joshua are not guaranteed in play, nor are they guaranteed the Hero Crest either. This isn't the stat boosters, to keep in mind.

As for the Sword rank, recall that it is C and he will still double sometimes (to say that he won't double at all is a dumb assumption). Furthermore, Blades + Lancereaver give 2 WEXP per hit, then a fatal hit can give double. Even so, it's less than 25 swings. Not a whole lot until the Brave Sword. And a final nitpick, assuming that Dozla and Duessel guaranteed the Brave Axe, which I DID see as an argument by CATS, is quite the "lol" statement. Duessel is a maybe, but Dozla still has the issue such as "where am I again?" and many other factors that can bend toward Garcia's advantage: doubling more often than Dozla in the first place.

[Scarlet]

Ross is rather null earlygame. He's not bad enough to be a detriment (as has been repeatedly shown), though it is true that he's not useful enough to help get through any faster. However, it shows that raising him is not troublesome by any means. Yeah Dozla has better growths to help combat Ross's faster leveling speed, but how fast are they leveling? We take your comparison that Ross is level 10 when he shows up. Ross would be gaining around 30 exp a kill, would you agree? Dozla wouldn't be gaining quite that much, but let's say he's getting 10 exp a kill. Ross is getting 3 times the experience Dozla is. Basically for every 3 levels Ross gets, Dozla gets 1. Ross as you have shown is actually quite comparable offensively with Dozla at that point in time, save crit. Ross however can have a possible B support with Garcia by then to increase the avoid, hit and power lead, while also closing the crit lead. Ross has avoid, though it is true that Dozla has a steep win in defense. However, the fact I trained up Ross and already he's offensively comparable to a dude who's 10 levels higher than him is pretty impressive. On top of this, there's a possible support to be built with Gerik as well, since he has a B open. Dozla on the other hand has no useful supports in the least, due to them all being crap or very ineffective (move difference, roll difference, support speed). So Ross has a way to close the defensive gap in a way using avoid. Since Ross has actually viable support options, Ross's already existent avoid lead will become steep in his favor. On top of this, his presence benefits the team, as he's helping two other people.

I already factored in Ross x Garcia at B at the comparison above. Doing it twice doesn't make any sense.

Also, I don't agree with "Dozla gets 1 level for every three levels Ross gets". EXP gain goes down quite a bit after Lv15 unpromoted as well, so him still gaining thrice as much EXP as Dozla is quite exaggerated.

Also, I don't buy your argument about supports. Why does Ross get Garcia, but Dozla doesn't? Granted, Ross x Garcia is much faster than Dozla x Garcia, but it's not like Garcia had anyone else to support (Seth will already be taken, lolNeimi, lolGilliam), so I don't see why Dozla can't get at least a B with him, which btw helps him a lot. B gives him +1 Atk, +1 Def, +10 Crt, +10 Avd, +5 Hit and +5 CrtEvd.

Btw, without Ross' supports, his Avd lead would be less than 10, pitted against Dozla's concrete tankiness. Even with 18 Avd less, Dozla is still a lot more durable than Ross, as I've shown above, as Ross may have more Avd, but he usually still can't force his enemies down to "safe" hit rates even only in the slightest.

Also, you seem to forget about promotion bonuses. They help pull on extra padding to Ross's stats after his fast leveling stats to die down. Yeah it's an ocean seal, but here's the thing. Colm doesn't need it to be useful. Sure, he'd like one, but he doesn't need it necessarily. Consider it a benefit of being a thief. On top of this, usually by the time he hits 20, one becomes buyable anyways. God knows we have money crammed up the ass and we could buy every football franchise the world has ever known, so I fail to see why it should be counted against him. On top of that, it's not like we'll be using a team to fit with all the promotion items we have by then (Orion's Bolt), so it's not like the cost can't easily be paid for.

I didn't forget about promotion, I simply didn't mention it because we all know that a Ross promoted at Lv20 beats Dozla for the rest of the game. The point just is: when is he going to promote? Ross will be Lv10 at the start of chapter 12. If we then assume the regular leveling speed of 1.5 levels per chapter based on about average performance, he'll hit promotion somewhere during chapter 18. So then Ross beats Dozla for around 3.3 chapters if you count the final one, while Dozla beats Ross for around 7. Sounds like a win for Dozla to me. Neither of them really crushes the other during their win period, since Dozla's win is merely him being notably more durable and Ross' win is then merely being able to kill a few more things than Dozla can, but it's still a win for Dozla.

But let's get him to promotion. Since this is 10 levels and Dozla gains 1 for every three, I'll put Dozla at level 4.

Ross 10/20/1 Berserker

HP: 40, Str: 21, Skill: 12, Speed: 13, Luck: 19, Def: 13, Res: 7

Dozla level 4

HP: 45, Str: 17, Skill: 12, Speed: 10, Luck: 4, Def: 11, Res: 6

I don't buy that. As I said, leveling speed cuts down notably at around Lv15 unpromoted, and then the enemies' level will rise as well, netting Dozla some more EXP points until finally promoted enemies start to show up, against which Dozla levels completely normally. Until chapter 18, Dozla will have moar like Lv8.

Let's also not just dump some of his game before Dozla shows up. There are times when having a Pirate on hand is very commando. Since it's agreed he's promoting before Waterside Renvall, how did no one think of an easy way to beat it with the help of our beloved pirate? You see, in waterside Renvall, at the starting position there is a little river with a bridge. Ross can cross that river with Vanessa to instantly go north above the impassable mountain ridge. This way, Vanessa isn't alone in this endeavor to take out the soldiers, the merc and the 2 archers by the boss (another reason Ross might actually be better for the job than Vanessa). The faster I take all these guys out, I could actually then just freely fly Eirika over the mountain to rapier the cavalier boss, getting the chapter done that much faster.

Great. I could as well just have Vanessa carry Seth over the mountain to massacre the boss and then carry Eirika over the mountain, pass her to Seth and drop her near the gate. If anything, this is even faster if we just want to skip the chapter as quickly as possible, so it's only a very minor point for Ross if at all.

Then, Port Kiris. There is a whole water front between you and the boss. Bunch of pirates too, and they want at that village. Vanessa and Tana could fly about to attack the pirates, but that is dangerous. They'd have trouble hitting, due to WTD on top of a disadvantage in terrain. They got hand axes too, meaning if they want to counter, they have to further destroy their accuracy with javelins. Ross can not only jump into the water itself for the avoid bonus, he has an accurate 1-2 range weapon as to actually hit these bastards with. Gotta love the Hatchet. Then, he can go south to pester the southern ranged enemies from the water with a hand axe, or the hatchet still. They'd have a hard time hitting him, and he'd always counter. This is basically something he can do all by himself, thanks to being a pirate prior to Dozla. On top of that, he is simply the best at it, because the others have to deal with bow weakness or WTD (there are plenty of bow guys in the southern area).

Let me tell you that you totally don't need Ross here. You don't even need Vanessa for this task. Tana can do it all herself, and she's actually forced into this chapter. She can just fly around the pirates, mocking their attacking range because they can't reach her, and carefully snatch the Rapier out of the village while using her Canto to get out of the archers' range. I've done it several times like this, and it works, even though it takes a few turns (3 or 4, IIRC). Tana can snatch the village without getting involved into a single fight. The pirates will come over to your main army after a few turns anyway, so it doesn't even hurt your efficiency if you don't already kill them while they're still on the water. To the contrary, once they're out of the water, anyone has an easy time dealing with them since they lose their Avd bonus.

Keep note that his presence prior is also helping Garcia perform better due to their support. With Garcia's monsterous strength growth and Ross's insane level speed padding his str to psychotic levels, I wouldn't be surprised if there were mages they could just pop out of existence in one shot.

Yeah, hype the support, I don't really care. It's not like the Ross support suddenly turns Garcia into Teh Destroyer of Doom and Pwn, it merely helps him hit better. Garcia's STR is already insane all by itself, so he hardly gives a damn if it gets boosted even further. Garcia's problem isn't Atk, it's that he doesn't reliably double, which no support on earth can fix.

I won't say for sure though until enemy stats are finalized. Ephraim Deussal's chapter is a minor point as you need to get to stairs to enter the ocean, but I suppose attacking the warships and then attacking landlubbers from the ocean with a hand axe is nice. It is minor though.

...if said warships don't blast Ross to death before he actually reaches them.

So no, not all of Ross's existence prior to Dozla showing up is fail (especially when he's able to compare to his dad at that time), just because you say so. There are times when having a pirate around is actually pretty damn helpful, and his presence helps make a pretty good guy perform even better.

I never said all of Ross' existance prior to Dozla was fail, I simply said he didn't do anything particularly worth of noting, like building up something like actual utility. He's there, and he doesn't hurt the team, but he's far from being notably useful or even amazing.

Then Dozla shows up, Ross easily able to compare or even beat Dozla offensively, easily able to pretty quick if he isn't already, despite the fact that Dozla is in fact tougher if we ignore the fact that Ross is quite a bit more dodgier and accurate, along with helping someone else on the team, AND possibly starting to help a second. Ross then promotes and whips Dozla so bad that his superior growths mean dick. Dozla's superior growths would matter if they were like twice what Ross has, but they aren't. They're simply sorta better, and Ross is comparing statistically just at level 10 Pirate in speed and Str, actually beating him in things like acc and avoid. He's indeed tougher, but it's not like Dozla is whooping him on a Percival vs Ilian cavs level.

Ross does not beat Dozla offensively when the latter shows up, as my comparisons further above show. Due to Dozla getting a Speedwing as a compensation for the fact that he doesn't need to promote, Dozla actually doubles some things that Ross can't, and actually ORKOs them while Ross can't. Also, there's always hammers, halberds, killer axes, Garm and the Brave Axe to help fix offense issues in case Dozla needs/wants them, while there is in fact no weapon that improves their durability. So even if Ross eventually beats Dozla in offense, Dozlas durability still means more than Ross' offense.

And Ross' superior avoid doesn't mean anything if he still dies a lot faster than Dozla does, and he does. He's a little more accurate, omg. Who cares? Speedwing!Dozla still kills more for a while. I never ignored any of this, but it simply doesn't mean any difference.

Also, I'll repeat myself, everyone and their mom knows that Ross beats Dozla once he promotes at Lv20. It's just that this promotion is so late that no-one really cares.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Raymond

[Dat Nick]

wait

did Tino just try to use Ross's earlygame as a point in his favor?

I WAS going to sig his "Lyn takes a country" thing in the FE7 topic but this is just too fucking rich.

brb changing that

[kills urges inside to start a Tino is ridiculous topic]

anyway, we even have to consider which route this is if we're adding Duessel to the competition of favortism, as it's obviously much less of a problem on Eir route. I'm not sure if 10/10 Ross is fair by Duessal's chapter, but Raymond DID say level speed dropped at 15, so let's look at it from there...

Btw, I don't think I consider a speedwing for Dozla as opposed to a promotion item in low demand which we're going to buy from the shop anyway [Colm's ready to use the first seal when we get it in C9 if he's not close whereas Ross's promotion timeframe is much closer to the secret shop in 14] by the time Ross can promote very fair, so I'm going to have to throw that one out.

15 Ross A Garcia [surely they have it by now]

33 HP, 21 str, 11 AS, 10 def

2 Dozla

44 HP, 16 str, 9 AS, 11 def

Look, Dozla can only tie in AS even if he gets the speedwing, and the durability gap has closed a lot. Due to reliable handaxing thanks to +15 hit, Ross's durability may actually be better since he can ORKO with his massive str without eating a counter.

Then there's a lot of shit Dozla can't double if he doesn't get his speedwing, Baels [it was some monster thingy with 7 AS hell if I know] and cavs, for instance.

I dunno, shitty earlygame aside, I see a potential case for Ross.

[Tino]

did Tino just try to use Ross's earlygame as a point in his favor?

What? I even mentioned I wasn't arguing anything!

I'm not arguing anything, I'm merely stating you haven't shown/proven anything at all.

Obviously what I meant was that he provided insufficient data on the subject.

Before insulting me, first read what I say.