FE9 Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

Devdan isn't guaranteed either (he's not that much better than Tormod) and Callil gives better boosts (Avo>Hit). Also, if Brom wants Zihark and Boyd, Neph has a slot open.

Again, my points about Geoffrey and Tormod still stand, Callil gets them if they're in play(which is very likely and not terribly unlikely respectively). I won't argue against Brom winning supports, but Callil's supports are pretty good all in all.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Devdan isn't guaranteed either (he's not that much better than Tormod) and Callil gives better boosts (Avo>Hit). Also, if Brom wants Zihark and Boyd, Neph has a slot open.

Again, my points about Geoffrey and Tormod still stand, Callil gets them if they're in play(which is very likely and not terribly unlikely respectively). I won't argue against Brom winning supports, but Callil's supports are pretty good all in all.

Just to clear up a couple points.

- Didn't Devden just rise to the middle of lower mid? Whole tier above is a noticeable difference. If anything, Calill's barely any better than Devdan.

- Difference between Devdan and Calill support for Neph is a tiny bit of avoid and hit exchange. The difference is miniscule at best.

- Tormod is a fair point. He is more or less garunteed Dev and Cal. Problem is...It's Tormod.

- She's also pretty much garunteed Geoff, the problem I shall continue repeating is the severe move difference (he's able to move out of support range the first turn). On top of that, he joins late, and has better stuff to do than retreat just for the support boost of one person.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Kuja

[Vykan12]

Brom's support list is undeniably better. They might both have supporters who want them, but Brom is supporting better characters. Since better usually = more likely fielded, he's thus more likely to give out support bonuses. Also, Tormod and Geoffrey start later than any of Brom's supports IIRC.

[grandjackal]

If it can be shown that Brom is above Calill (I'd say being fucking hard to kill on the crow ship chapter would make him more than better), I wonder if it can be shown that Devdan can be better than Calill...

These three perform generally as well as the other in their own way. All three are pretty close calls.

[dondon151]

(I'd say being fucking hard to kill on the crow ship chapter would make him more than better)

Which one are you talking about? The one with ravens only isn't difficult to the point where good durability is even necessary (you won't ever face more than 1 raven at a time). The one where you recruit Astrid is another story...

[-Cynthia-]

His durability isn't that good since he's getting doubled.

[dondon151]

As long as you're not 1RKO'd, you're good to go in the first raven chapter.

[Vykan12]

His durability isn't that good since he's getting doubled.

That depends on his level. Being doubled isn't a big deal if you're taking little damage per hit.

[-Cynthia-]

He needs 2 pts of speed not to be doubled by the lowest level Raven. Considering he's only had one chapter before this, he would have to gain 6+ levels there with his 25% speed growth. Unless I misinterpreted you, in that you were saying Brom would have been durable enough to withstand it, not avoid getting doubled.

At any rate, kind of irrelevant.

Edited June 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[soundecho]

@ Cynthia - Ok, to make Soren heal I have to give him 9 levels + a master seal so he can heal. The problem is, I already have 2 other healers who can heal without doing anything. I don't have to do anything so they can heal if you get what I mean.

To have them heal I don't need them to waste any resources or anything. Using healers can't have a negative impact unless you plan on frontlining them. Therefore the value of healing is diminished as we have other units that can heal and don't have a negative impact on any of the team (they don't use any CEXP, they use money but the game floods you with it so who cares etc.).

I hope that didn't sound confusing.

@ Mekkah is it just me or am I the only one that can't access Reikken website?

[Dat Nick]

sure you're going to the right link? I can see it fine

anyway

cynthia, you're totally not getting it. You can go on all day about Brom getting doubled, but at the end of the day it's irrelevant because he soaks up hits so well that two hits on him barely equates to anything. Besides, 18 AS [i think Reikken's laguz stats are excluding transform bonuses?] doubles damn near your whole army anyway.

Look, Ravens have 22 mt. They're doubling Brom. He's got 30 HP and 15 def at lvl 11. That's just barely a three round, which is pretty good considering that's two rounding pretty much everybody else, even one rounding a few people.

Edited June 18, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Zkirsche]

If I were to give Brom 1.5 levels per chapter (not undoable due to underlevelled ness) and only 0.5 levels in chapter 15 from bexp we end up with a level 20/5 Brom. Now, if we give him 15 levels with the knight ward and 2 levels with a speed boosting band, we get something that looks like this:

Level 20/5 Brom with a forged steel lance/javelin, 'A' Boyd, 'B' Zihark: 43 HP, 39/35 Atk, 18 AS, 53 Avo, 25 Def, 11 Res

Level xx/6 Calill with Forged thunder: 32 HP, 28 Atk, 18 AS, 52 Avo, 8 Def, 17 Res

Brom: 66/138 Gold per attack

Calill: 167 gold per attack.

I'd make a comment on how Brom uses up less money, but he's been knight warding like hell, so I'll let them tie resource use.

So, Brom is giving out useful supports by the time Calill joins. Awesome.

Defensively, Brom beats Calill in every defensive paramter except Res. But they're aren't that many mages anyway. 11/17 Hp/Def over Calill is pretty big.

When it comes to offence, they both double the same things and they have the same movement. Calill needs a 12 Def-Res gap in order to deal more damage, 11 def-res gap to deal equal damage. Any lower then brom wins. Let's check out some stats:

Level 4 Wyvern Lord: 38 HP, 19 Def, 7 Res

Level 18 Wyvern Knight: 35 HP, 17 Def, 7 Res

Level 4 Paladin: 35 HP, 16 Def, 9 Res

Level 18 Weapon Knight: 31-32 HP, 13-14 Def, 6-7 Res

Level 4 Generals: 36 HP, 20 Def, 10 Res

Level 18 Knights: 33-34 HP, 19-20 Def, 7-8 Res

They.... Tie damage output too. All of these are ORKO'ed by both. And i recall these classes from memory, too. Hmm....

Better durability and support bonuses > nothing.

If i were to skip ahead to chapter 26 for an endgame comparison. I'll give Calill 6 levels and Brom 7 for being at a lower level and being generally better. Brom can get 5 levels with the knight ward, 2 with a speed band, calill all 6 with speed band.

Level xx/13 Calill, Forged thunder, 'B' Neph 'C' Geoffrey: 35.5 HP, 33 Atk, 21 AS, 72 Avo, 11 Def, 19 Res

Level 20/13 Brom, Forged silver lance/Javelin, 'A' Boyd 'B' Zihark: 49 HP, 48/39 Atk, 22 AS, 63 Avo, 30 Def, 13 Res

Brom: 176.6/138 Gold per attack

Calill: 167 Gold per attack

Brom still gives out better supports. Why not Tormod you might ask? He's got Devdan, Reyson and Sothe. All are quicker supports than Calill.

I'll admit that Brom uses more resources (Gold + knight ward)

Defensively, 16 HP + 19 Def >>> 9 Avo + 6 Res.

Offensively, Brom has more AS, and 15/6 more Atk than Calill. As Cynthia showed, the res-def gap is very small. Then you have to consider that Brom isn't restricted by his durability and it's clear that brom > Calill offensively.

Then, Brom is better in Chapters 11-19 just for existing. Killing/hurting an enemy > Not killing/hurting any enemy.

Brom > Calill.

Edited June 18, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Few things:

You gave Brom -a lot- of KW access. 15 levels of KW access is a ton, considering how many other characters want use of it.

You only compared Brom at jointime, when he has full supports and Callil does not. You also gave him a weird support set in order to make his damage output higher, 'A' Boyd B 'Zihark', seriously? Later in the game, Callil's going to gain significant damage from her supports as well, so she'll end up with a lead over Brom in some areas.

I'm not saying Brom>Callil doesn't have validity, just some things I'm pointing out.

On Brom's Ch12 perrfomance, his durability isn't that important since he's fairly unlikely to be attacked anyway, and his damage output is lower than many of your PC's at this point. "Everyone gets doubled" is false as well, Ike/Zihark/Nephenee/Mia/Soren/Titania/Oscar/Kieran/Lethe/Mordecai/Volke. The stats include transform bonuses.

Edited June 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I edited my wall of text a bit.

You gave Brom -a lot- of KW access. 15 levels of KW access is a ton, considering how many other characters want use of it.

I agree with that, which is why, despite Calill costing more, I said that they took up equal resources.

You only compared Brom at jointime, when he has full supports and Callil does not. You also gave him a weird support set in order to make his damage output higher, 'A' Boyd B 'Zihark', seriously? Later in the game, Callil's going to gain significant damage from her supports as well, so she'll end up with a lead over Brom in some areas.

See my edited post.

What's wrong with 'A' Boyd, 'B' Zihark? Zihark prefers Muarim over Brom and Boyd loves Brom's bonuses. It's one of his quicker supports (Lol 20 chapter 'A' support with Titania). Nothign is wrong with that set. Besides, 'A' Zihark and 'B' Boyd also gives worse bonsues (1 Atk > 5 Avo).

[-Cynthia-]

Your logic of killing/hurting enemies> not killing hurting enemies suggests that Rolf should move up as well. since he can indeed hurt and kill things while other people aren't around.

Who really cares about gold at this point? That's a really inconsequential victory compared to you having Brom hog the KW like crazy. Astrid/Maklaov/Devdan need it pretty badly, that's much worse than Callil taking slightly more out of the excessive pile of gold you have by this point.

Why is Tormod auto taking Devdan/Reyson? We both know Sothe isn't being fielded on enough maps for it to matter, but Reyson doesn't get anything out of the Tormod support and Callil gives better bonuses to Tormod than Reyson does. Anyway, you still have done a comparison with full supports.

Brom going Boyd/Zihark hurts Nephenee early on though. Boyd can get Titania/Mist pretty easily, there's no real need for him to get Brom.

Edited June 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

(Lol 20 chapter 'A' support with Titania).

Brom's A support is faster by 9 chapters but Titania also has like 9 chapters of availability over Brom, so A Brom is happening slightly earlier while Boyd gets C and B Titania a lot earlier.

[Zkirsche]

Your logic of killing/hurting enemies> not killing hurting enemies suggests that Rolf should move up as well. since he can indeed hurt and kill things while other people aren't around.

However, Brom isn't a liability on the field, Rofl is.

Who really cares about gold at this point? That's a really inconsequential victory compared to you having Brom hog the KW like crazy. Astrid/Maklaov/Devdan need it pretty badly, that's much worse than Callil taking slightly more out of the excessive pile of gold you have by this point.

I suppose that's true. Very well, Calill costs much less resources. Brom still has durabiltiy and support leads, though.

Why is Tormod auto taking Devdan/Reyson? We both know Sothe isn't being fielded on enough maps for it to matter, but Reyson doesn't get anything out of the Tormod support and Callil gives better bonuses to Tormod than Reyson does. Anyway, you still have done a comparison with full supports.

She gets 2 more Atk and 5 more avo from teh remaining supports. I coudl argue that a smae level brom is still superier to same level calill with said supports.

Brom going Boyd/Zihark hurts Nephenee early on though. Boyd can get Titania/Mist pretty easily, there's no real need for him to get Brom.

Mist Prefers Mordy and Jill for durability boosts. Boyd CAN get 'B' Titania, but 'A' Brom is useful for both Brom and Boyd. See, Nephenee's wind affinity is nothing special. Durability isn't Brom's problem, his Atk can sometimes suffer due to AS.

Boyd gets 'A' Titania at chapter 20. Boyd gets 'A' brom at chapter 19. Not only that, but 'A' Brom is better statistically than 'A' Titania. Just take a look:

Boyd 'A' Titania, 'B' Brom: 3 Atk, 2 Def, 15 hit

Boyd 'A' Brom, 'B' Titania: 4 Atk, 2 Def, 10 Hit.

Is 5 hit > 1 Atk? No.

Quicker and better = getting the support.

[Tino]

It's not really an interesting discussion so far, so I also won't jump in on it, but I do want to point this out:

Is 5 hit > 1 Atk? No.

It is for Boyd. Since when does he care about even more atk again?

[Zkirsche]

How about Largo into lower mid? I can't see him as that bad a unit. Check out his bases and growths:

Bases with forged Silver: 52 HP, 42 Atk, 20 AS, 52 Avo, 10 Def, 3 Res

Growths: 80% HP, 70% strength, 45% AS, 120% Avo, 25% Def, 20% Res

Largo is simply an offensive tank. In fact, save the vantage and wrath scrolls for him and you can get one of teh best units in the game. Resolve works well, too. He's also knd of underlevelled so those growths will be put into effect very quickly. I can't see this great offensive unit being in low tier. Even with 10 Def, he's not going to die, and his problems are soon fixed with his supports - Muarim and Devdan. Muarim has no other option aside from Lethe, who's liekly to be dropped a few chapters after that anyway due to falling offence capabailities and Devdan's support, who prefers Largo over Tormod due to better bonuses. Just look:

Devdan: 'A' Nephenee, 'B' Tormod: 3 Atk, 25 Hit (Lol), 15 Avo

Devdan: 'A' Nephenee, 'B' Largo: 2 Atk, 25 Hit (Lol), 25 Avo.

It's 1 Atk vs 10 Avo. Pretty close, but I'm siding with Devdan here, besides, Tormod's not very good due to all teh babying he requires. Largo can easily a 'B' with both of them, giving Largo +1 Atk, +1 Def, 15 Hit and 15 Avo. A little bit of everything, really. Largo appreciates the durabiltiy boost, at the very least. A 'C' with taur brings the avo up to 20, too.

It is for Boyd. Since when does he care about even more atk again?

When did anyone care about hit by that point? Forges are in this game, and they're easily bought.

You're right, they're both kinda useless bonuses, but attack is much better than the hit any day, especially since it makes Boyd deal more damage to SM's, who he doesn't double. And generals, who he might not kill (I can't recall if he does or not).

Edited June 18, 2009 by kirsche

[Shadow Mir]

And generals, who he might not kill (I can't recall if he does or not).

I can answer that: Stop! Hammer time!

[Zkirsche]

I can answer that: Stop! Hammer time!

You can't buy those in hard mode.

What about Wyverns? They have high def.

Then there are bosses he could improve against.

Edited June 18, 2009 by kirsche

[Tino]

Negative biorythm is a good example of when he wants the +5 hit. I can't be bothered to look at numbers now, but my latest normal mode fixed playthrough contained a Boyd that actually didn't have the most reliable hit at all (like, 60-70 displayed hit). Then recall that hard mode enemies have somewhat more spd and thus avo, and that's like 55-65. It's possible that it was with negative biorythm (I took tempest off of him), but then he would've had 60-70 displayed hit, which means he would still like the additional hit.

He has bows for wyverns, duh. 18 mt from steel + his str probably = ORKO

Oh yeah, and since you mentioned swordmasters, those are exactly the enemies he needs the hit against most. Then there are plenty other enemies with decent avo. Boyd definitely wants the hit; what good does huge-ass damage do when you miss? Oh wait, then it isn't huge-ass damage, since he deals no damage at all if he misses.

[Zkirsche]

There are still +Hit weapons.

And there are still generals, SM's and Bosses he can do better against. I'll get some numbers up later, though.

[Tino]

What did I just say about swordmasters? Did you even read it?

+1 atk won't help Boyd ORKO generals if he couldn't already. +5 hit that helps on all instances is so much better. You may have a point on bosses, but you have plenty others who want boss kills, and generic enemies take up a far larger amount of enemies than bosses.

[-Cynthia-]

How about Largo into lower mid? I can't see him as that bad a unit. Check out his bases and growths:

Bases with forged Silver: 52 HP, 42 Atk, 20 AS, 52 Avo, 10 Def, 3 Res

Growths: 80% HP, 70% strength, 45% AS, 120% Avo, 25% Def, 20% Res

Largo is simply an offensive tank. In fact, save the vantage and wrath scrolls for him and you can get one of teh best units in the game. Resolve works well, too. He's also knd of underlevelled so those growths will be put into effect very quickly. I can't see this great offensive unit being in low tier. Even with 10 Def, he's not going to die, and his problems are soon fixed with his supports - Muarim and Devdan. Muarim has no other option aside from Lethe, who's liekly to be dropped a few chapters after that anyway due to falling offence capabailities and Devdan's support, who prefers Largo over Tormod due to better bonuses. Just look:

Devdan: 'A' Nephenee, 'B' Tormod: 3 Atk, 25 Hit (Lol), 15 Avo

Devdan: 'A' Nephenee, 'B' Largo: 2 Atk, 25 Hit (Lol), 25 Avo.

It's 1 Atk vs 10 Avo. Pretty close, but I'm siding with Devdan here, besides, Tormod's not very good due to all teh babying he requires. Largo can easily a 'B' with both of them, giving Largo +1 Atk, +1 Def, 15 Hit and 15 Avo. A little bit of everything, really. Largo appreciates the durabiltiy boost, at the very least. A 'C' with taur brings the avo up to 20, too.

Devdan gets Tormod's bonuses substantially sooner though, so that's more than enough to make up for it. Though if Tormod isn't fielded, Largo can get Devdan, but Devdan's chances of being fielded aren't especially high himself. Also, you'd either have to kill Lethe or deny both Lethe/Muarim a support until Largo comes much later in the game, which is probably not worth it for the team as a whole.

Largo has a substantial chance of dying actually, he's 3-4HKOd by most enemies with high hit rates. Hence the low tierage. I'm not sure who you want to move him above, so I'll leave it at that.

Edited June 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-