FE9 Tier List

[Zkirsche]

Boyd would prefer + Def over + Hit, and Brom's chances in being in play are iffy. Plus since we're using Stefan, it's pretty stupid to sandbag him by filling up Mordy when Mist can easily just go somewhere else, not to mention Illyana has a good chance to be out of play herself.

Titania gives him def. She has light affinity, not Heaven affinity. And Tino did a good job showing how Boyd prefers the hit to the Atk.

It's stupid to sandbag Mordy, too. Without the 'A' Mist he loses + 2 Def and +2 Atk.

I didn't forget it, but not being a first turn transform laguz makes it harder for him to leverage it. If he rushes ahead witht he pallys, all he's going to do is draw enemy fire with no chance to counter and decreased durability, which is unwanted. Also ORKOing is much, much better than 2RKOing, it's really an enormous advantage.

His durabiltiy is still superier to Stefan's, so drawing fire away from everyoen might actually be beneficial to the team as it stops frail untis like Stefan getting killed.

Mordy has essentially twice as much durabiltiy than Stefan. If he deals >50% but <100% damage to 10 untis whilst Stefan deals 100% damage to 5 units, they're clearly tied. See, Stefan's durability hurts his offence. This is practically the same scenario.

Rather underrating Stefan's durability. The Lvl 15 Stl Axe Fighters (the enemies with the most Atk in Ch16) have only ~23 Atk. This means Stefan is only getting 4HKOd at absurdly low hit rates(like 10% lol). Things like Lvl18 Iron Lance Knights have more Hit(about 50% display), but are like 6RKOing Stefan at best. So "can't afford to be attacked multiple times" is a little harsh.

ch16 was 5 chapters ago.

I would argue Mordy's somewhat overleveled for 2RKOing things and basically not showing up until Turn 4-5 on every map, considering Stefan shows up for every turn and ORKOS things.

He shows up on turn 2 with my strategy, which is quite efficient and helps others durably.

Plus, he has a good chance to ORKO level 7 or weaker warriors, Level 6 or weaker halbs, Level 9 or weaker wyvern lords, Level 3 or weaker sages, higher if sages are weighed down by 'A' rank tomes (Not non-existant, they appeared in chapter 20) or long range tomes. See, he isn't doing as bad as you thought.

Stefan doubles everything. Mordy doubles Wyverns/Generals/some lower leveled or weighed down enemies, and arguably only when overleveled. It basically works out to Stefan doubles 99%, Mordy doubles like 25% maybe, which is pretty far from "non-existent".

They may be lower levelled, but they exist. Enemies in that chapter range from levels 3-12. So the fact that Mordy can double level 3-9 halbs and warriors is quite good. Levels 3-7 snipers isn't too bad either. So I'd say about 45% of enemies, which is quite far from non-existant.

Stefan also has a pretty monstrous Avo lead over Mordy, it's more than an A Earth worth of difference. Plus, I don't think Mordy really cataches up to Stefan in levels as easily as you claimed, since he's offensively inferior.

Not really, Mordy has more mobility (Faces more enemies on enemy phrase), better durability (Can survive more enemeis on the enemy phrase and can still double some enemies (Thus ORKOing them.) Give him teh speedwing I mentioned and he doubles even more.

The avo lead is not better than Mordy's def and HP leads, which are even more monstrous. Stefan needing to chug down 7 dracoshields and 2 seraph robes to overtake it. That's pretty big.

The gauge gains for being in combat in PoR are much less than those in RD, and if Mordy is being attacked on the Enemy Phase untransformed, it's just more efficiency decrease for him, since he can't counter.

This is incorrect, it makes him transform quicker, and thus help the team quicker. Why would you wait for ~5 turns for an uber character when you can wait just 1? Then, getting attacked diverts attacks from weak units like our healers, Marcia and any RNG screwed characters.

Stefan doesn't have a recruitment cost, unless you count running Lethe/Mordy up in Ch16 which isn't terribly difficult.

He wastes money by using items. Swords are more costly than claws. Besides, to recruit him, you face teh wrath of teh bird laguz nearby. By killing off the bird laguz you just lost yourself 360 bexp. That's quite a bit.

If you want to argue Mordy above Stefan, than say Mordy's better than Stefan not move them closer. If you want to move Mordy above Soren/Illyana, then compare him to them.

Vykan's kinda doing that now, Healing =/= upper mid. I'm merely pointing out that such a gap between them should not, and does not, exist.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

So apparently we're supposed to seal Ilyana. That might give her staves but it murders her AS and durability worse than before. Are staves alone getting her in upper-mid, especially when she gains them at a point where staff utility is far more redundant?

She moved there because she "seems" better than Rhys upon early promotion, like Soren. Her competition for the Seal is Soren and Mist but I'm considering the possibility of her getting the seal if you're not using either of those 2 characters so she moved below Soren since it doesn't seem like they should be too far apart.

The Master Seal gives her staff utility as well as a boost in combat during the time where she can actually do some as opposed to lategame where the Paladins and other more durable units are trampling everything so isn't it better to receive a boost when you can do some action as opposed to wait till late when others will undoubtedly do more than you? Like Soren, an early Master Sealed Ilyana replaces Rhys as it doesn't take long for her to reach mend, she'll heal close to his HP healing and her combat is better... at least, no1 has really proven otherwise.

Her AS growth sucks too so I doubt she's doing much doubling other than Armors and maybe Wyverns through normal level ups later in the game.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

Titania gives him def. She has light affinity, not Heaven affinity. And Tino did a good job showing how Boyd prefers the hit to the Atk.

It's stupid to sandbag Mordy, too. Without the 'A' Mist he loses + 2 Def and +2 Atk.

Funny thing is, when you were trying to argue Illyana down, you refused to give her a Mordecai support on the assumption that Mordy was supporting Stefan, you seem like to deny any non-Mist character a Mordy support whenever it's inconvenient for your argument. Mist is the character that wants Mordecai the least, since she can easily fill her slots with Titania/Boyd/Jill, while Illyana and Stefan have more difficulty filling their slots.

His durabiltiy is still superier to Stefan's, so drawing fire away from everyoen might actually be beneficial to the team as it stops frail untis like Stefan getting killed.

Mordy has essentially twice as much durabiltiy than Stefan. If he deals >50% but <100% damage to 10 untis whilst Stefan deals 100% damage to 5 units, they're clearly tied. See, Stefan's durability hurts his offence. This is practically the same scenario.

You could actually try to show that Stefan's durability is enough to hurt his offense, rather than just having an absurdly vague definition of frail. I showed that he's facing 4HKOs at 10% hit rates, 6HKOs at 50% hit rates, which is far from oh noes Stefan must constantly be protected.

ch16 was 5 chapters ago.

I compared base level Stefan to the enemies in his opening chapters. Stefan is actually facing many of the same enemies in Ch21 (Reikken's site says mostly 18+ promos), except he's gained a few levels and probably some supports, so he's doing even better.

He shows up on turn 2 with my strategy, which is quite efficient and helps others durably.

I wasn't aware that having people attacked who can't counter is efficient.

Plus, he has a good chance to ORKO level 7 or weaker warriors, Level 6 or weaker halbs, Level 9 or weaker wyvern lords, Level 3 or weaker sages, higher if sages are weighed down by 'A' rank tomes (Not non-existant, they appeared in chapter 20) or long range tomes. See, he isn't doing as bad as you thought.

Doing "better than I thought" still doesn't make his offense close to Stefan's.

They may be lower levelled, but they exist. Enemies in that chapter range from levels 3-12. So the fact that Mordy can double level 3-9 halbs and warriors is quite good. Levels 3-7 snipers isn't too bad either. So I'd say about 45% of enemies, which is quite far from non-existant.

Even if it is 45%, it's still less than half of the units Stefan doubles.

Not really, Mordy has more mobility (Faces more enemies on enemy phrase), better durability (Can survive more enemeis on the enemy phrase and can still double some enemies (Thus ORKOing them.) Give him teh speedwing I mentioned and he doubles even more.

The avo lead is not better than Mordy's def and HP leads, which are even more monstrous. Stefan needing to chug down 7 dracoshields and 2 seraph robes to overtake it. That's pretty big.

Mordy's defensive leads are mostly superfluous, there's no reason for Stefan to take defensive items because he never really has durability issues, while Mordy definitely has AS issues.

This is incorrect, it makes him transform quicker, and thus help the team quicker. Why would you wait for ~5 turns for an uber character when you can wait just 1? Then, getting attacked diverts attacks from weak units like our healers, Marcia and any RNG screwed characters.

The only source I found on laguz gauge says that it increases by a factor of 4 each round, it doesn't seem to indicate combat builds gauge like in RD.

Why are we even using RNG screwed characters in the first place? Healers should be able to defend themselves, and if they can't the enemy will attack them over Mordecai anyway. It's more efficient to have the enemy attack those that can counter than those who can't.

He wastes money by using items. Swords are more costly than claws. Besides, to recruit him, you face teh wrath of teh bird laguz nearby. By killing off the bird laguz you just lost yourself 360 bexp. That's quite a bit.

Because PoR is so restrictive on funds?. Killing the bird laguz gives that character CEXP, and even if we go over to recruit Stefan that doesn't mean we have to kill the laguz that attack.

Vykan's kinda doing that now, Healing =/= upper mid. I'm merely pointing out that such a gap between them should not, and does not, exist.

That's an issue with Soren/Illyana being overrated that has very little to do with Mordy/Stefan.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Funny thing is, when you were trying to argue Illyana down, you refused to give her a Mordecai support on the assumption that Mordy was supporting Stefan, you seem like to deny any non-Mist character a Mordy support whenever it's inconvenient for your argument. Mist is the character that wants Mordecai the least, since she can easily fill her slots with Titania/Boyd/Jill, while Illyana and Stefan have more difficulty filling their slots.

And guess what? I conceded that argument once I realised that Ilyana was a likely support for him. See, opinions aren't fixed on one thing, contrary to you belief. And i have been been persuaded otherwise.

Oh and a simple 'No u' isn't disproving what I said, which was:

* Jill gets Mist. I is fine with that.

* Boyd prefers Titania to Mist and brom to Mist. So he gets Brom/Titania not Mist/Titania.

* Does Mist prefer Titania over Mordy? Idk when hit > atk, but you tell me.

You could actually try to show that Stefan's durability is enough to hurt his offense, rather than just having an absurdly vague definition of frail. I showed that he's facing 4HKOs at 10% hit rates, 6HKOs at 50% hit rates, which is far from oh noes Stefan must constantly be protected.

Stefan isn't immortal, and Mordy is twice as durable as he is. Thus, Mordy can face twice as many enemies than Stefan.

I compared base level Stefan to the enemies in his opening chapters. Stefan is actually facing many of the same enemies in Ch21 (Reikken's site says mostly 18+ promos), except he's gained a few levels and probably some supports, so he's doing even better.

Gaining a few levels means nothing when you don't get much from them, and he only gets like +5 avo durably. Stefan is barely better than he was before, enemies on teh otehr hand have increased, and there are a few promos around.

I wasn't aware that having people attacked who can't counter is efficient.

His durabiltiy is still superier to Stefan's, so drawing fire away from everyoen might actually be beneficial to the team as it stops frail untis like Stefan getting killed.

Maybe not Stefan, but definitely healers. Then, after being attacked, he transforms and you get a unit. See I'd consider getting a good unit ~4 turns faster as being efficient.

Doing "better than I thought" still doesn't make his offense close to Stefan's.

Err, yes it does. You're whole Stefan > mordy offensively argument revolves around Stefan doubling and Mordy not. But oh snap, Mordy does double. Looks like your argument was thrown on it's head.

Even if it is 45%, it's still less than half of the units Stefan doubles.

You do realsie that wasn't actual figures right? it's probably a lot more. Now I can't access Reikken's site for some peculiar reason, but doubling 6/9 halberdier and warriors levels and 4/9 sniper levels equates to 16/27 enemies he can double without much resource use. Add in generals, wyvern knights and any enemy that's weighed down and the percentage only continues to increase. Then, Add in possible speedwing usage and it increases even more.

Mordy's defensive leads are mostly superfluous, there's no reason for Stefan to take defensive items because he never really has durability issues, while Mordy definitely has AS issues.

I'm sorry, but when was 40 HP/14 Def good for endgame? I must've missed that part.

Besides, Stefan isn't immortal and has many more scenario's where he could die than Mordecai.

The only source I found on laguz gauge says that it increases by a factor of 4 each round, it doesn't seem to indicate combat builds gauge like in RD.

I'll have to check once I get my copy of PoR back. Still I swear that it does increase. If it doesn't then i agree that Stefan > Mordy.

Why are we even using RNG screwed characters in the first place? Healers should be able to defend themselves, and if they can't the enemy will attack them over Mordecai anyway. It's more efficient to have the enemy attack those that can counter than those who can't.

Well, Ike's forced and then we have units that support other units. Ike want to keep my Ike--Oscar support even if Oscar's RNG screwed after all.

Because PoR is so restrictive on funds?. Killing the bird laguz gives that character CEXP, and even if we go over to recruit Stefan that doesn't mean we have to kill the laguz that attack.

Enougth CEXP to make up for the 360 bexp loss? That's a couple of levels to a character gone. And you don't gain a couple of levels from 1 kill.

Stefan joins equipped, Lethe will be transformed, that's two units right there that will kill pretty easily. Stefan especially, unless you think that Stefan isn't very good offensively and doesn't double?

It's restrictive on forges, though. You can only forge 1 weapon a chapter, so Stefan getting a forge means that anotehr doesn't get one for the chapter. Perhaps more than a chapter in teh case of chapter 17.

That's an issue with Soren/Illyana being overrated that has very little to do with Mordy/Stefan.

You said that in order to bring them closer, i had to argue him > Rhys/Ilyana/Soren. Well, Vykan's doing the work for me.

@Sirius: I don't think stuff should be assumed on someone. Saying person x with a resource > Person Y without one is still kinda favouritism.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Shadow Mir]

I'll have to check once I get my copy of PoR back. Still I swear that it does increase. If it doesn't then i agree that Stefan > Mordy.

According to the tutorial, the transformation gauge increases by 4 every turn and increases by 2 more when a laguz is attacked.

[Zkirsche]

According to the tutorial, the transformation gauge increases by 4 every turn and increases by 2 more when a laguz is attacked.

Well, my points still stand then.

Anyway, I can honestly see reyson going higher also. He works the best with laguz stones and when transformed he has the utiltiy of ~4 units. Let's say he averages the utility of 2 units in one chapter. This gives him +24 chapters of utility. Kieran only has +21 (chapter 15 = neautral utility). Jill has less, but Oscar has more. Then, Reyson has a pretty good support list too (Tanith, Ike, Tormod appreciates his support as well). He can easily get Tanith/Tormod. I'd consider him a very viable option for 3rd best unit in ths game, if not the second.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Sorry if you felt insulted kirsche, sometimes I can be...harsh.

Not allowing Stefan/Mordecai is still dependent on a lot of factors though.

1. Illyana has to be in play. She's a mid tier unit, so this is iffy all in itself.

2. Brom has to be in play(and not supporting Nephenee and Zihark), and he's rather medicore, otherwise Boyd takes Mist over nothing.

3. Titania can't take Mist. Mist provides Titania with some of her best bonuses and Titania often has issues with her second slot (Ike is full, Rhys is meh and Mov difference, so it may be Mist vs. nothing).

None of these factors are totally out of the question, but once you consider all 3 have to happen, Stefan/Mordecai is more likely than not.

Mordecai being twice as durable ==/== fighting twice as many enemies. With that logic we can end up with ridiculous scenarios in which Gatrie takes on triple the enemies Soren can, and he's an entire tier lower.

Also, for gauge, Mordecai's gauge starts at 0(I had to look at a youtube video, they should really be somewhere on the site). Mordecai transforming Turn 2 is pretty ridiculous, since even if 4 enemies attack him, 4+8= 12, which isn't a full gauge. Turn 3 is possible, 4 is most likely. Although you have to consider Mordy's going to take a heal if he's taking all these attacks, which is more efficiency lost.

I agree on Reyson, although Tormod isn't that great of a support. Tormod isn't a very good unit and it adds nothing to Reyson, plus Tormod gets more from Devdan/Calill.

Edited June 28, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Sorry if you felt insulted kirsche, sometimes I can be...harsh.

No worries, I can be like that too. It's what happens when you really get behind a debate, the emotions start coming through.

1. Illyana has to be in play. She's a mid tier unit, so this is iffy all in itself.

2. Brom has to be in play, and he's rather medicore, otherwise Boyd takes Mist over nothing.

3. Titania can't take Mist. Mist provides Titania with some of her best bonuses and Titania often has issues with her second slot (Ike is full, Rhys is meh and Mov difference, so it may be Mist vs. nothing).

There are also quite a few factors stopping Mordy/Stefan:

1) Soren has to be in play (For Ike to be full)

2) Boyd has to be in play (Likely but not 100% - could be RNG screwed)

3) Jill has other options: She has Lethe and Haar too, and they both like the def.

4) Brom might be played solely for bonuses purposes. You said yourself Nephenee likes the support.

5) Ilyana isn't played just for the bonuses. Zihark appreciates the def she gives him.

Mordecai being twice as durable ==/== fighting twice as many enemies.

Why not? If Stefan can only face ~7 enemies before dying, but Mordy can face ~14, why can't Mordy faces said 14 enemies?

Also, for gauge, Mordecai's gauge starts at 0(I had to look at a youtube video, they should really be somewhere on the site). Mordecai transforming Turn 2 is pretty ridiculous, since even if 4 enemies attack him, 4+8= 12, which isn't a full gauge. Turn 3 is possible, 4 is most likely. Although you have to consider Mordy's going to take a heal if he's taking all these attacks, which is more efficiency lost.

1) I agree, I don't even know what's lost from teh dmei band.

2) He gets 4 from the first two turns (At the start of each turn), which means he only needs to face ~6 enemies before transforming. I don't think that's highly unlikely as enemies are likely to swarm to him for not being able to counter attack.

I agree on Reyson, although Tormod isn't that great of a support. Tormod isn't a very good unit and it adds nothing to Reyson, plus Tormod gets more from Devdan/Calill.

Calill and Devdan aren't the best units themselves, and onyl one needs to be fielded or full to not take Tormod. Despite the fact that it adds nothing to Reyson, the idea that a supprot is beneficial to the team is outgoing bonsues, and Tormod definitely likes the Atk.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[dondon151]

Why not? If Stefan can only face ~7 enemies before dying, but Mordy can face ~14, why can't Mordy faces said 14 enemies?

Because in the game, there aren't 14 enemies.

[Vykan12]

No worries, I can be like that too. It's what happens when you really get behind a debate, the emotions start coming through.

A tier list isn’t a debate, with the distinction being your arguments are supposed to be entirely objective.

[Zkirsche]

Because in the game, there aren't 14 enemies.

He doesn't face them all at once, however. After said period of time, Stefan can only attack half as many units as Mordy can.

A tier list isn’t a debate, with the distinction being your arguments are supposed to be entirely objective

We're still debating. But I suppose you could call it an argument then.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

@Sirius: I don't think stuff should be assumed on someone. Saying person x with a resource > Person Y without one is still kinda favouritism.

Some of your support arguments are favoritism. To a lesser extent than items but it's still favoritism and those were assumed and affected the tier position of the many units you argued.

I don't think it's fair to not count that early promotion possibility. Their current position isn't even entitling them to the item, just noting that it's a very good use of the master seal and that if it's done, they're better than Rhys which is why they're above him (I can see Ilyana drop below Rhys but no1 has done a good argument for that... Soundecho and Kirsche failed on this).

Also, if any1's to be targeted for favoritism, Mist should be first. Runesword, Sonic Sword, Arm Scrolls and probably some other stat boosters...

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Mordy > Stefan? I don't like pointless arguments dragging on if it's not supported.

I don't think it's fair to not count that early promotion possibility. Their current position isn't even entitling them to the item, just noting that it's a very good use of the master seal and that if it's done, they're better than Rhys which is why they're above him (I can see Ilyana drop below Rhys but no1 has done a good argument for that... Soundecho and Kirsche failed on this).

I'm not saying it shouldn't be counted at all, but putting a character where there are solely on that resource is kinda bad. It's good that it affects where they are, but I think you've put them a tad high for a possibility.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Any thoughts on Mordy > Stefan? I don't like pointless arguments dragging on if it's not supported.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be counted at all, but putting a character where there are solely on that resource is kinda bad. It's good that it affects where they are, but I think you've put them a tad high for a possibility.

Oh look, Zihark was moved solely because we assumed all those supports on him.

Let's see... for early promotion Soren/Ilyana just needs a master seal and so far, no1 has proven that they're not the best candidates for it. Who's crying over the loss of a Master Seal?

For Zihark's supports we need... several units in play... competing for spots. For him to have those supports, it's a possibility. Who's crying over the loss of support taken by Zihark?

Point being, Zihark went up by possibility of greater requirements. Their leap was because they essentially become better than Rhys.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

Oh look, Zihark was moved solely because we assumed all those supports on him.

Really? I thought that he was deemed superier defensively than Stefan, similar offensively to Stefan, having more offence AND having better supports.

Let's see... for early promotion Soren/Ilyana just needs a master seal and so far, no1 has proven that they're not the best candidates for it. Who's crying over the loss of a Master Seal?

Brom, he likes the speed boost, extra weapon and mov boost. Mist gets a horsie. etcetera.

Heck I'd question Ilyana's healing utility > Mordy's Combat utiltiy in the first place.

For Zihark's supports we need... several units in play... competing for spots. For him to have those supports, it's a possibility. Who's crying over the loss of support taken by Zihark?

Supports =/= master seal. Supports benefit multiple people, the master seal is only for self-improvement.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Really? I thought that he was deemed superier defensively than Stefan, similar offensively to Stefan, having more offence AND having better supports.

Brom, he likes the speed boost, extra weapon and mov boost. Mist gets a horsie. etcetera.

Heck I'd question Ilyana's healing utility > Mordy's Combat utiltiy in the first place.

Supports =/= master seal. Supports benefit multiple people, the master seal is only for self-improvement.

Mostly the supports. His durability lead was mostly through supports.

Oh look, Ilyana gets the same + healing so they have a way to compensate for the lower EXP gain due to being promoted. Mist is already considered, I've "ranked" the best candidates for Master Seals multiple times -__-.

I question that too. Feel free to argue them below Mordecai, it's just that you guys seem to be arguing them below Rhys.

I already argued this with Cynthia: I KNOW THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. The point is that they both have requisites.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the fact that Mordy has the worst knd of meter situation in this game, starting with an absolute 0. You HAVE to get him attacked untransformed to get him into the action anytime soon, and as said why that is a problem. Otherwise, at best, Mordy's being mop-up crew. Stefan doesn't need to have enemies take pot-shots at him to put his awesome offense to good use.

[Zkirsche]

I question that too. Feel free to argue them below Mordecai, it's just that you guys seem to be arguing them below Rhys.

I thought it was common sense how 3-4 less mov, worse durabiltiy and arguably worse offence is bad.

I already argued this with Cynthia: I KNOW THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. The point is that they both have requisites.

One, however, has multiple benefits, the other doesn't.

and as said why that is a problem

And I've said how that isn't a problem.

[Vykan12]

We're still debating. But I suppose you could call it an argument then.

Yes, but it's not a matter of winning the argument at all costs, it's about honestly comparing 2 characters without introducing any obvious bias. If we carry out a tier list like a normal debate, then the more persuasive debater will always win, not the actual better character. If someone makes a case for eg/ Jill > Titania but with the use of exaggerations the opponent cannot adequately counter, then you'll be introducing a lot of inaccuracy to the list.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I thought it was common sense how 3-4 less mov, worse durabiltiy and arguably worse offence is bad.

Rhys however was above Mordecai before I started updating the list. Prove Mordecai >>> Rhys and I'll gladly move Mordy above the Sages.

One, however, has multiple benefits, the other doesn't.

One, however, requires multiple units fielded in several chapters out of the many we can use. The other requires lvl 10 and a Master Seal.

[Zkirsche]

Rhys however was above Mordecai before I started updating the list. Prove Mordecai >>> Rhys and I'll gladly move Mordy above the Sages.

If I prove Rhys < Lethe, will that prove Mordy > Rhys as well since both Mordy and Neph > Lethe, proving Lethe > Rhys pretty much ascertains Mordy and Neph > Rhys too. Unless there's flawed reasoning behind Neph and Mordy > Lethe, but I highly doubt that.

First off, Lethe has better supports. Yes, Rhys has Kieran and Titania, but Titania has Boyd/Ike/Mist and Kieran has Oscar/Marcia, both of whom match his mov better. Lethe has Jill and Muarim, both of which don't mind the support for sheer lack of options (Haar comes in very late, Largo is meh). Rhys' main support partners are Mia, Rofl and Ulki. Low/bottom tier units.

Now, I'll address Rhys' healing utiltiy before Lethe shows up. Rhys is a real liability in chapter 4, a nice big open map with high density, and in chapter 7, where reinforces appear from every which way, there are multiple paths and he can't go down all of them and it's also a fairly open map. This cancels out any positive utility in chapter 8 and 9, as he really isn't highly needed in both as the bexp has brought Oscar's and Ike's durability up to scratch, not to mention Oscar and Ike now have a support together.

This leaves chapter 2, 5 and 6 where Rhys contributes his healing utility to the team. 3 chapters. Woot.

In chapter 11, you start to see why Lethe pwns his ass so much. And this is because combat > healing.

Say a unit attacked Neph. Now Neph's at 10 HP. Rhys will heal her. Gee, thanks Rhys. This looks better than Lethe just killing an enemy but a dead unit can't hurt anyone. If Lethe kills that unit before it attacks Neph, Neph wouldn't need the healing. Oh look, Rhys doesn't do much better than Lethe after all. In fact, he does WORSE as his 5 mov means that he struggles to keep up with and heal the units. Lethe saves Neph from waiting behind to get healed. Awesome. So Lethe > Rhys until he promotes, which is at best at chapter 13 when we seal him:

15/1 Rhys with forged light, 'B' Titania: 27 HP, 26 Atk, 10 AS, 31.5 Avo, 6 Def, 22 Res

Level 4 Lethe: 35 HP, 26.5 Atk, 16 AS, 47.5 Avo, 15 Def, 10 Res.

With 8 HP, 0.5 Atk, the ability to double enemies, better avoid, better defence, higher mov AND costing nothing, I can safely say that Lethe > Rhys at this point in the game when it comes to combat, and her killing stuff still helps the team's durability.

Now they're at a similar level (A 15/1 beorc grows liek a 20/1 does), let's check out thier growths:

Lethe: 130/50/70/190/40/25 -- HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res

Rhys: 40/60/40/130/25/55 -- HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res

Offensively, Lethe can double teh whole game, Rhys never doubles. This makes Lethe's 70% AS lead > Rhys' 10% Atk lead.

Defensively, Lethe wins every parameter save Res, and mages aren't common anyway.

Then, the later on in teh game you are, the less healing utiltiy matters. So Lethe's abilities only increase.

Rhys < Lethe, Mordy and Neph.

Edited June 29, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Just doing a little nitpicking and random responses.

If I prove Rhys < Lethe, will that prove Mordy > Rhys as well since both Mordy and Neph > Lethe, proving Lethe > Rhys pretty much ascertains Mordy and Neph > Rhys too. Unless there's flawed reasoning behind Neph and Mordy > Lethe, but I highly doubt that.

Sure

Now, I'll address Rhys' healing utiltiy before Lethe shows up. Rhys is a real liability in chapter 4, a nice big open map with high density, and in chapter 7, where reinforces appear from every which way, there are multiple paths and he can't go down all of them and it's also a fairly open map. This cancels out any positive utility in chapter 8 and 9, as he really isn't highly needed in both as the bexp has brought Oscar's and Ike's durability up to scratch, not to mention Oscar and Ike now have a support together.

@First Bold: Asset. You mean asset. Yes he does have shit for durability and yes the map is as you describe it I don't recall keeping Rhys out of enemy range to be much of an issue. Him healing your units sure as hell beats having them waste an action to heal just 10 HP with Vulnerary.

@Second Bold: Numbers would be nice. Also, although healing isn't exactly necessary, it's still a very good asset at this point since... there's not much competition for slots in these chapters and I think I'm not retarded when I say that I'd rather field a healer so my combat units don't have to waste a turn with Vulneraries than add yet another combat unit. After all, Boyd would sure love some healing after getting counter-attacked on the player phase and he can't do that with a Vulnerary if he attacked on that turn =\

In chapter 11, you start to see why Lethe pwns his ass so much. And this is because combat > healing.

Wait, what? There's already plenty of combat at that time. Ok yeah there's Soren, Ilyana and Mist being better choices (assuming early promotion on the former 2) but that applies to Lethe and in that there's other combat units you'd rather field.

Then, the later on in teh game you are, the less healing utiltiy matters. So Lethe's abilities only increase.

Then, the later on in teh game you are, the less Lethe's combat matters since we keep getting decent prepromotes, Muarim comes along, Geoffrey and less issue with the transformation and so on. Except Lethe's got more competition on the combat the department than Rhys does with healing and can do some damage even though it's shit >_>.

I don't get it, you and Cynthia are constantly bringing up how "Only Mist is necessary for healing later" or some shit like that. Seriously, is it just 1 freaking unit that's doing enemy phase? What's with staff utility sandbagging lately?

Edited June 29, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

@First Bold: Asset. You mean asset. Yes he does have shit for durability and yes the map is as you describe it I don't recall keeping Rhys out of enemy range to be much of an issue. Him healing your units sure as hell beats having them waste an action to heal just 10 HP with Vulnerary.

With the swarm of enemies at the beginning, there's no real way to protect Rhys unless we wall him off. His healing utility is somewhat valuable, but having to be walled off isn't good, since we want to charge forward, beat boss, and end map. Whether Rhys is more of a help or a hindrance here is tough to call, since we have to not move forward in order to protect him (and Soren).

@Second Bold: Numbers would be nice. Also, although healing isn't exactly necessary, it's still a very good asset at this point since... there's not much competition for slots in these chapters and I think I'm not retarded when I say that I'd rather field a healer so my combat units don't have to waste a turn with Vulneraries than add yet another combat unit. After all, Boyd would sure love some healing after getting counter-attacked on the player phase and he can't do that with a Vulnerary if he attacked on that turn =\

I would agree that Rhys's healing utility is useful on Ch 9 & 10. Rhys's main problem is after the other possible staff users promote, since they all pretty much beat him in offense, durability, and supports and I would argue that more than 2 healers in PoR is usually overkill.

I don't get it, you and Cynthia are constantly bringing up how "Only Mist is necessary for healing later". Seriously, is it just 1 freaking unit that's doing enemy phase? What's with staff utility sandbagging lately?

What's with the staff utility overrating lately? Healers are only useful if they're saving you Player Phases, there usually shouldn't be more than 1-2 units that actually need healing in order to keep going. Of course more people than that get wounded, but Brom getting hit for like 3 damage does not require a healer, everyone that avoids (many people) do not require healers.

Edited June 29, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Reyson up?

@First Bold: Asset. You mean asset. Yes he does have shit for durability and yes the map is as you describe it I don't recall keeping Rhys out of enemy range to be much of an issue. Him healing your units sure as hell beats having them waste an action to heal just 10 HP with Vulnerary.

I always do, and I'm pretty sure everyone else does too. Unless I'm mistaken. Whatever, Titania/Gatrie/Shinon are plenty durable anyway. It's only Ike.

@Second Bold: Numbers would be nice. Also, although healing isn't exactly necessary, it's still a very good asset at this point since... there's not much competition for slots in these chapters and I think I'm not retarded when I say that I'd rather field a healer so my combat units don't have to waste a turn with Vulneraries than add yet another combat unit. After all, Boyd would sure love some healing after getting counter-attacked on the player phase and he can't do that with a Vulnerary if he attacked on that turn =\

Level 10 Oscar, 'C' Ike, 3 levels with the knight band: 30 HP, 37 Avo, 11 Def

Level 10 Boyd: 36 HP, 27 avo, 7 Def

3* level 8 knight with a steel lance: 18-19 Atk, 80.5 Hit

3* level 8 soldier with a steel lance: 16-17 Atk, 84.5-86.5 Hit

2* level 7 Myrmidon with an iron sword: 12-13 Atk, 107-109 hit

4* level 9 soldier with an iron lance: 17 Atk, 87 Hit

Oscar gets 5RKO'ed by the 17 Atk soldiers and 18 Atk knights and 6RKO'ed by the 16 Atk Soldier. Then, he gets 4RKO'ed by the knights. He has a 560% chance of being 30RKO'ed by the myrmidons and a 50% chance of not even getting hurt by them. He faces 43.5-50 displayed hit from those who actually damage him significantly which is enougth to make sure he doesn't die quickly (The strongest and more hitting knights possible only have 2.35% chance of 4RKO'ing him. That's good)

Boyd gets 4RKO'ed by the knights and 17 Atk soldiers, but 5RKO'ed by the 16 Atk ones and 6RKO'ed by the myrmidons. Against the lance users, he has the same avoid as Oscar, so faces similar chances of death.

I admit he has some utility, but only just to negate the negative accumulation.

Not that it matters, I'd assume Lethe's performance from then on is enougth to make the difference.

Wait, what? There's already plenty of combat at that time. Ok yeah there's Soren, Ilyana and Mist being better choices (assuming early promotion on the former 2) but the applies to Lethe and in that there's other combat units you'd rather field.

I meant how it also helps durability, but it was better at doing so.

Then, the later on in teh game you are, the less Lethe's combat matters since we keep getting decent prepromotes, Muarim comes along, Geoffrey and less issue with the transformation and so on. Except Lethe's got more competition on the combat the department than Rhys does with healing and can do some damage even though it's shit >_>.

Untrue, the need for a good combat unit still remains, but the need for a healer to heal said combat units doesn't remain. Try completing those chapters without a good combat unit. It's hard. However, it's much, much easier to live without a healing unit.

I don't get it, you and Cynthia are constantly bringing up how "Only Mist is necessary for healing later". Seriously, is it just 1 freaking unit that's doing enemy phase? What's with staff utility sandbagging lately?

Durability issues and the need for healing are much, much less lategame, meaning 1 healer will suffice.

Edited June 29, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Well, until some1 objects with good reason. The healers below Lethe.