FE9 Tier List

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Tormod above Sothe and Ilyana below Calill sounds good at the moment. Though I'll just place them as you suggest to see if any1 disagrees.

EDIT: Except for Ilyana below Calill.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

I agree that Mist should move down. Basically for all the reasons Sirius said, and more. See, Ike does want Soren as he has a bit of trouble ORKO'ing post promotion until ragnell appears. Mist having good supports =/= high tier IMO. I'd say she is worse than Muarim, but she should definitely go into upper mid.

Also, I second Ilyana < Calill.

[uzy5o]

13 MT and 7 WT Steel Sword for Mist = 4823 Gold

Ah damn it there's no listed way to calculate the forging costs for Thunder with 2 WT and some MT to make the value equal to Mists' weapon. Until some1 confirms how much stat adjustment (-1 WT, rest on MT) to forge a Thunder to equal value of that, I'll just assume +3 MT and -1 WT is less than 4k Gold.

I just checked my game.

+5 mt -5 wt steel sword = 5523 gold.

+4 mt -1 wt thunder = 5253 gold.

[-Cynthia-]

I just checked my game.

+5 mt -5 wt steel sword = 5523 gold.

+4 mt -1 wt thunder = 5253 gold.

That seems somewhat insignificant IMO. For the record, Mist having a 3 Mov lead over Soren isn't some small advantage, it allows her to not use up Physics and keep pace with the rest of the army, many of the characters are High/Top tier due to having increased Mov, though I agree with Mist moving down.

Thirding Calill>Ilyana.

Edited July 1, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I'm going to retry Mia < Janaff:

Thunder > Fire. Janaff > Mia.

Mia's performance is nothing but average in her chapters without Janaff. Durably she is epic fail. 21/7 HP/Def is really bad, add on her 50%/20% growth rates respectively and she struggles to catch up defensively. This really limits her already-average offence. She's just average during the chapters she exists.

So in order for Mia > Janaff, she'd have to be better than him when they meet up, but that's not the case. After giving Mia 1.5 levels per chapter, excluding chapters 15 and 10 where she gets 0.5 levels, :

20/5 Mia with a forged steel sword, 'A' Rhys, 'B' Ilyana: 34 HP, 32 Atk, 24 AS, 62 Avo, 14 Def, 9.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/8 Janaff, beak, demi band: 39 HP, 25 Atk, 19 AS, 54 Avo, 14 Def, 11 Res, 8 Mov

Durably, Janaff wins as 5 HP > 8 avo. Offensively, Mia wins.

So, even after all that effort, Mia is not better than Janaff. See, this is an unrealistic scenario. 1.5 levels for a meh unit like mia is absurd. Then, both Ilyana and Rhys have to be played in for said support combo, something that's unneeded later on in teh game, meaning that Mia's effectively taking up ~3 unit slots instead of 2.

So, let's see a realistic scenario, where Mia gets 15 levels in 12 chapters, or 1.25 levels per chapter and only an Ilyana support. They won't go 'A' as they get no bonus from 'B' --> 'A':

20/1 Mia with a forged steel sword, 'B' Ilyana: 32 HP, 28 Atk, 22 AS, 56 Avo, 13 Def, 8.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/8 Janaff, beak, demi band: 39 HP, 25 Atk, 19 AS, 54 Avo, 14 Def, 11 Res, 8 Mov

I can safely say that Janaff is the winner here, 7 HP + 1 Def + 2.5 Res + 1 mov > 3 Atk + 2 Avo lead (AS lead is superfluous)

A few chapters later, say chapter 22:

20/5 Mia with a forged steel sword, 'B' Ilyana: 34 HP, 29 Atk, 24 AS, 62 Avo, 14 Def, 9.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/10 Janaff, beak, demi band, 'B' Shinon: 42 HP, 26 Atk, 20 AS, 67 Avo, 17 Def, 13.5 Res, 8 Mov

Janaff still wins, as 8 HP + 5 Avo + 3 Def + 4 Res + 1 Mov > 3 Atk + Mostly superfluous AS lead.

Let's skip ahead to chapter 26:

20/9 Mia with a forged silver sword, 'B' Ilyana: 36 Hp, 36 Atk, 27 AS, 70 Avo, 14 Def, 10.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/13 Janaff, beak, demi band, 'A' Shinon: 45.5 HP, 28 Atk, 22 AS, 77 Avo, 18.5 Def, 15 Res, 8 Mov

Ouch, that offensive lead is big. +16 damage per round is huge. But wait, Janaff wins durabiltiy by a mile and a half, too. 9.5 HP, 7 Avo, 4.5 Def and 4.5 Res. That's a big win. When you consider that Janaff has higher mov than Mia, Mia's offensive lead becomes clearly smaller than Janaff's defensive wins.

Endgame:

20/13 Mia with a forged silver, 'B' Ilyana: 38 Hp, 37 Atk, 29 AS, 76 Avo, 15 Def, 11.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/16 Janaff, beak, demi band, 'A' Shinon: 49 HP, 29 Atk, 24 AS, 82 Avo, 19 Def, 16 Res, 8 Mov

This is pretty much the same as before, except Janaff has a bigger HP lead.

Janaff > Mia.

[-Cynthia-]

Before I get into my usual shenanigans vs. kirsche, any opinion on Gatrie>Ranulf?

Thunder > Fire. Janaff > Mia.

It doesn't quite work like that, given their support situations. Mia shows up 11 chapters earlier and has the better support list. Rhys won't be filling his second slot otherwise(Ulki and Rolf?) and Ilyana often has an empty slot if Mordecai has Mist/Stefan or Zihark has Muarim/Brom. Largo isn't very good, but Mia can get him if he's in play.

As for Janaff's supports, Lucia and Shinon will not be fielded due to being horrible (less likely than Largo). Oscar will almost always be full due to taking Ike/Kieran, but if we aren't doing thus for some bizzare reason, Tanith beats out Janaff due to better affinity anyway.

So Janaff pretty much has to go supportless the entire game while Mia is supporting people before he's even around. Mia wins supports on the basis that something>nothing.

So in order for Mia > Janaff, she'd have to be better than him when they meet up, but that's not the case. After giving Mia 1.5 levels per chapter, excluding chapters 15 and 10 where she gets 0.5 levels, :

20/5 Mia with a forged steel sword, 'A' Rhys, 'B' Ilyana: 34 HP, 32 Atk, 24 AS, 62 Avo, 14 Def, 9.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/8 Janaff, beak, demi band: 39 HP, 25 Atk, 19 AS, 54 Avo, 14 Def, 11 Res, 8 Mov

Durably, Janaff wins as 5 HP > 8 avo. Offensively, Mia wins.

So, even after all that effort, Mia is not better than Janaff. See, this is an unrealistic scenario. 1.5 levels for a meh unit like mia is absurd. Then, both Ilyana and Rhys have to be played in for said support combo, something that's unneeded later on in teh game, meaning that Mia's effectively taking up ~3 unit slots instead of 2.

I would say 7 Atk, 5 AS, 8 Avo is pretty clearly better than 5 HP, but I agree this is a slightly unrealistic comparison. I usually say Mia is 20/3 by Ch18. Also, it's not as if Ilyana and Rhys are so horrible that fielding them is a giant detriment, especially as you're assuming we're fielding Shinon later.

So, let's see a realistic scenario, where Mia gets 15 levels in 12 chapters, or 1.25 levels per chapter and only an Ilyana support. They won't go 'A' as they get no bonus from 'B' --> 'A':

20/1 Mia with a forged steel sword, 'B' Ilyana: 32 HP, 28 Atk, 22 AS, 56 Avo, 13 Def, 8.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/8 Janaff, beak, demi band: 39 HP, 25 Atk, 19 AS, 54 Avo, 14 Def, 11 Res, 8 Mov

I can safely say that Janaff is the winner here, 7 HP + 1 Def + 2.5 Res + 1 mov > 3 Atk + 2 Avo lead (AS lead is superfluous)

I don't think you can safely say Janaff is the winner, 3 Atk is a fair amount, especially when both are doubling and Mia has a substantial crit rate. Vantage also gives Mia indirect durability, about a 30% chance to avoid 1 range attacks, 80% with Wrath, this cuts into Janaff's durability lead significantly. Remember that Janaff is weak to bows and wind magic as well, the bow weakness is especially significant since many of Janaff's maps feature ballistae which ORKO-2RKO him.

Also, Janaff getting the Demi Band is pretty heavy favoritism, every laguz in the game up to this point wants it. You can argue that you gave Mia a forge, but we've had 11 opportunities to forge items, we only have 1 Demi Band. This will lead to a slight increase in stats for Janaff, but he's also useless past turn 5 or so.

A few chapters later, say chapter 22:

20/5 Mia with a forged steel sword, 'B' Ilyana: 34 HP, 29 Atk, 24 AS, 62 Avo, 14 Def, 9.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/10 Janaff, beak, demi band, 'B' Shinon: 42 HP, 26 Atk, 20 AS, 67 Avo, 17 Def, 13.5 Res, 8 Mov

Janaff still wins, as 8 HP + 5 Avo + 3 Def + 4 Res + 1 Mov > 3 Atk + Mostly superfluous AS lead.

We're fielding Shinon, but not Rhys? That's quite the double standard, considering how awful Shinon is by this point(see my earlier discussion of Ch19 Shinon). Mia doubles SM's, Cats, and Ravens, Janaff doesn't for the viewers at home.

Endgame:

20/13 Mia with a forged silver, 'B' Ilyana: 38 Hp, 37 Atk, 29 AS, 76 Avo, 15 Def, 11.5 Res, 7 Mov

xx/16 Janaff, beak, demi band, 'A' Shinon: 49 HP, 29 Atk, 24 AS, 82 Avo, 19 Def, 16 Res, 8 Mov

This is pretty much the same as before, except Janaff has a bigger HP lead.

I skipped most of the comparison since it's the same points(fielding Shinon?, Vantage etc.) Only 4 levels for Mia as compared to 3 for Janaff is rather skimpy on Mia's end, considering she has a lot more offense and doesn't have transform issues.

As a general note, I would say Mia's offensive lead is more important, as her durability isn't bad enough to really prevent her from using her offense. Mia's generally being 4-6HKOd by enemies with 10-40% display hit on her. On enemies that are actually threatning her in melee range (laguz), she has a good chance to kill them before they hit.

Edited July 1, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Also, Janaff getting the Demi Band is pretty heavy favoritism, every laguz in the game up to this point wants it. You can argue that you gave Mia a forge, but we've had 11 opportunities to forge items, we only have 1 Demi Band. This will lead to a slight increase in stats for Janaff, but he's also useless past turn 5 or so.

1) Those forges can break

2) There can be up to 12 people in a team, that means that there can be more people available than there are forges. ohnoes.

3) More people can use forges than not. Only Ulki/Janaff/Lethe/Mordy/Muarim can use the demi band. But Ike/Oscar/Soren/Boyd/Rhys/Mist/Brom/Mia/Nephenee/Titania/Gatrie/Shinon/Astrid/Makalov/Kieran/Marcia/Tanith/Jill/Ilyana/Tormod/Devdan/Zihark/Rofl can use forges. A lot more people miss out if you forge a forge for Mia, less if you just give janaff the demi band. Not to mention you don't really have to equip it until he's nearly out of gauge normally since he's an early transformer IIRC.

We're fielding Shinon, but not Rhys? That's quite the double standard, considering how awful Shinon is by this point(see my earlier discussion of Ch19 Shinon). Mia doubles SM's, Cats, and Ravens, Janaff doesn't for the viewers at home.

In other words, units we assume to be used are:

-Units in Top or High Tier

-The unit currently being defended (even Bastian is assumed to be used in a Bastian debate)

-Units who support the unit currently being defended

Look at bold, nerfing the unit being played by not giving him a support is arguably inefficient. See Mia forces 1 unit into the team through supports, so does Janaff.

Chapter 22 doesn't have laguz. As for the SM's:

Mostly superfluous AS lead.

1 enemy type =/= massive offensive lead.

If Neph isn't being played, Janaff can use vantage too, and I don't know where you got ~30% crit from. Unless we're using the uncommon and easily broken killers. He can also use Resolve later on in the game and perhaps even paragon, adept, cacnel etcetera. Mia can be better than janaff when the odds are in her favour. But when equal (Aka in my comparisons) , Janaff is far superier.

Janaff can also shove/rescue better than Mia due to higher weight. This means he does better with Smite.

I skipped most of the comparison since it's the same points(fielding Shinon?, Vantage etc.) Only 4 levels for Mia as compared to 3 for Janaff is rather skimpy on Mia's end, considering she has a lot more offense and doesn't have transform issues.

Neither does janaff since he has the demi band. She also has less mobility, which you failed to look upon.

As a general note, I would say Mia's offensive lead is more important, as her durability isn't bad enough to really prevent her from using her offense. Mia's generally being 4-6HKOd by enemies with 10-40% display hit on her. On enemies that are actually threatning her in melee range (laguz), she has a good chance to kill them before they hit.

Those numbers are false. An endgame warrior with a steel axe 2RKO's Mia, Mages and Halbs 3RKO (Mages 4RKO if they equip a spell weaker than elthunder) her at higher hit rates, Generals also 3RKO her, unless they weild a laguz lance or stronger, in which case they 2RKO. This is much worse than 4-6RKO'ed. Tigers and cats also 2RKO her except at >50% hit rates (Tigers have ~60 displayed, cats have ~57 displayed).

btw, for exact hit rates, those steel lance halbs have 121 Hit against Mia's 76 avo, that's ~40 real hit. The mages have 107/117 with elthunder/elfire. That's also pretty high. Yes, the warriors have stupidly low hit rates, but that doesn't change the fact that if Mia screws up a bit, she's dead. Yes, dead. That's wrath for you. If she don't crit, she's a goner, and you can only get so lucky.

[-Cynthia-]

1) Those forges can break

2) There can be up to 12 people in a team, that means that there can be more people available than there are forges. ohnoes.

3) More people can use forges than not. Only Ulki/Janaff/Lethe/Mordy/Muarim can use the demi band. But Ike/Oscar/Soren/Boyd/Rhys/Mist/Brom/Mia/Nephenee/Titania/Gatrie/Shinon/Astrid/Makalov/Kieran/Marcia/Tanith/Jill/Ilyana/Tormod/Devdan/Zihark/Rofl can use forges. A lot more people miss out if you forge a forge for Mia, less if you just give janaff the demi band. Not to mention you don't really have to equip it until he's nearly out of gauge normally since he's an early transformer IIRC.

Not all those people require forges to ORKO, while every laguz wants the Demi Band. The only way Janaff taking the Band is better than Mia getting a forge is if we aren't playing any other laguz, which is pretty unlikely.

Look at bold, nerfing the unit being played by not giving him a support is arguably inefficient. See Mia forces 1 unit into the team through supports, so does Janaff.

Wherever you got that from likely wasn't implying that possible supports would be fielded purely for support values. You're equating Ilyana to Shinon, which is a problem.

20/3 Ilyana (A Mordecai B Mia forged thunder)

31 HP 28 Atk 16 AS 10 Def 20 Res 45 Avo

--/1 Shinon (forged Steel Bow)

32 HP 18 Atk 13 AS 9 Def 6 Res 35 Avo

In addition to crushing Shinon in nearly every statistical category, Ilyana hits Res, can use staves, and has 1-2 range as opposed to the vastly inferior 2 range. Equating the two is a major error.

If Neph isn't being played, Janaff can use vantage too, and I don't know where you got ~30% crit from. Unless we're using the uncommon and easily broken killers. He can also use Resolve later on in the game and perhaps even paragon, adept, cacnel etcetera. Mia can be better than janaff when the odds are in her favour. But when equal (Aka in my comparisons) , Janaff is far superier.

He can't use Paragon, there are no paragon scrolls, I don't think there are Cancel scrolls either(edit there is one but it comes in Ch15, Mia can use it from 15 to 18, Janaff can't). Mia can use the scrolls listed as well as Janaff does, she just uses Wrath better.

As for 30% crit.... 9(Skl/2 at 20/3) + 9 (max crit on forge) + 15 (SM crit boost)= 33. Enemies have like 3-5 Lck, so she has Crit rates around 30.

Janaff can also shove/rescue better than Mia due to higher weight. This means he does better with Smite.

Most of the units being shoved are weaker units that Mia shoves anyway. Absurdly minor advantage.

Neither does janaff since he has the demi band. She also has less mobility, which you failed to look upon.

The Demi Band he's apparently entitled to, despite the fact he's screwing over better characters by using it? He does have a little more mobility I grant you, but no Canto.

Those numbers are false. An endgame warrior with a steel axe 2RKO's Mia, Mages and Halbs 3RKO (Mages 4RKO if they equip a spell weaker than elthunder) her at higher hit rates, Generals also 3RKO her, unless they weild a laguz lance or stronger, in which case they 2RKO. This is much worse than 4-6RKO'ed. Tigers and cats also 2RKO her except at >50% hit rates (Tigers have ~60 displayed, cats have ~57 displayed).

btw, for exact hit rates, those steel lance halbs have 121 Hit against Mia's 76 avo, that's ~40 real hit. The mages have 107/117 with elthunder/elfire. That's also pretty high. Yes, the warriors have stupidly low hit rates, but that doesn't change the fact that if Mia screws up a bit, she's dead. Yes, dead. That's wrath for you. If she don't crit, she's a goner, and you can only get so lucky.

I was comparing 20/3 Mia to 20 and under prepromotes not like 20/7 Mia against Endgame opponents.

As for Warriors, you can't simply blow them off as "luck" The max level Endgame warriors only have 85 hit against Mia. 20/15 Mia has 79 Avo. That gives them 6% display hit, .78% true hit. She's got way under a 1% chance to be 2HKOd, so astronomically small it barely even needs mentioned.

Edited July 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Tino]

Jill > Kieran? It's basically a little more spd vs flight. Jill's spd can be fixed. Kieran can never fly.

[dondon151]

He can't use Paragon, there are no paragon scrolls, I don't think there are Cancel scrolls either. Mia can use the scrolls listed as well as Janaff does, she just uses Wrath better.

The site doesn't list Paragon as "cannot be obtained without codes," though it doesn't have a list of obtainable items either (someone should compile one of those). It's the same for Guard (i.e. Cancel in FE10).

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Only Astrid and Geoffrey have access to Paragon.

[Raven]

If anyone is wondering about Red Fox's absence from this thread, it's not because she's lost interest.

As she put it to me, She currently has "very limited internet for the next 5 days", then proceeding to ask me to let you people here in this particular thread know of her situation.

[Tino]

So, how about Jill vs. Kieran?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

All comparisons I've seen so far between those 2 have failed.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Sirius

[Tino]

lvl 10 Jill (steel): 25 hp, 22 atk, 9 spd, 24 avo, 12 def, 3 res

lvl 14 Kieran (steel): 31 hp, 23 atk, 10 spd, 28 avo, 11 def, 2 res

lvl 1 Jill (B Mist, steel): 36 hp, 30 atk, 16 spd, 46 avo, 19 def, 9 res

lvl 1 Kieran (B Marcia/B Oscar, steel): 38 hp, 29 atk, 17 spd, 64 avo, 15 def, 6 res

lvl 15 Jill (B Mist, silver): 45 hp, 40 atk, 23 spd, 63 avo, 24 def, 13 res

lvl 15 Kieran (A Marcia/B Oscar, silver): 46 hp, 41 atk, 23 spd, 81 avo, 21 def, 11 res

So Kieran kind of wins very early on, I guess, but then Jill gets a rather sizeable concrete durability lead, while Kieran obtains an avo lead. They're pretty much equal for a very long time, except Jill has flight, which has its obvious uses. And that's not just a few uses, we're talking about massive flexibility and utility here. Think about crossing water, being able to go wherever she wants on outdoor maps, etc. There are a lot of chapters where flight is incredibly useful.

So I'd say flight > earlygame lead.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Tino

[Zkirsche]

There were quite a few problems with those comparisons

lvl 10 Jill (steel): 25 hp, 22 atk, 9 spd, 24 avo, 12 def, 3 res

lvl 14 Kieran (steel): 31 hp, 23 atk, 10 spd, 28 avo, 11 def, 2 res

1) Kieran should use iron, with this he has a sizeable AS lead and avo lead.

2) Kieran should be level 15, you obviously gave Jill like 1.2 levels of bexp, so let's give Kieran a little bit of bexp. A level 15 Kieran has 24 Atk, 11 AS, 31 Avo since he can get a use with a strength band.

3) Kieran can have 'C' Oscar by chapter 13, increasing his avo to 38.

lvl 1 Jill (B Mist, steel): 36 hp, 30 atk, 16 spd, 46 avo, 19 def, 9 res

lvl 1 Kieran (B Marcia/B Oscar, steel): 38 hp, 29 atk, 17 spd, 64 avo, 15 def, 6 res

Their the same level? Please explain how Jill got 11 levels in the time Kieran got 6. That's almost twice the experience gain than Kieran gets. Jill is not half Kieran's level or naywhere near that much better than him. Kieran is likely to get to level 3 before Jill promotes, this gives him + 1 to HP, strength, Speed, def and Res that what you have their.

but then Jill gets a rather sizeable concrete durability lead

This "Sizeable" durability lead (+3 def versus +3 HP and +20 avo in the above comparison) is very reliant on one thing: The mist support.

Mist has many other options: Boyd/Mordy/Titania. All three of these units love her support just as much as Jill does, perhaps more.

You might say Kieran is in teh same situation, but he's not. If you take away the 15 avo from the Oscar support, Kieran still has an avo lead. If they both have 0 supports, then Kieran still has an avo lead.

Plus, Kieran's supports have less options: Marcia has Rhys who doesn't match her mobility, and Oscar has Tanith, who comes in much later, and Janaff, who just isn't very good.

Better supports + Better until late game > Flying utility.

[-Cynthia-]

Flying utility is very important though:

Ch12: Jill can actually fight the ravens before they land on the ship and tear apart Mist or whoever, Kieran can't do this.

Ch13: More ravens, Jill can kill them before they steal your items, much more difficult for Kieran

Ch14: Jill can fly up over the rivers and get the items from the houses

Ch15: Desert, duh.

Ch17: Many parts include swamp, difficult terrain where Kieran loses lots of Mov and Jill doesn't

Ch19: There are several mountains here Jill can fly over that Kieran can't, thus letting her reach the boss more quickly.

Ch20: Jill can fly up the cliff face to fight Wyverns more effectively.

Ch21: Jill can fly over the rivers here.

Ch23: Obvious, Jill doesn't get stuck in holes or stopped by sandbags

Ch24: Very tree heavy, Jill can cross them

Ch25: Obvious once again, Kieran loses lots of Mov here, Jill doesn't

Ch28: Jill can cross the trees in the middle of the map.

So on most maps they're on, there is terrain that Jill can cross that Kieran can't.

On supports, all of Mist's non-Titania supports have decent sets without her anyway, Boyd has Brom/Titania and Mordecai has Ilyana/Stefan, Jill taking Mist isn't a big deal. Those comparisons didn't even give Jill a Lethe or Haar support, which she can get easily. I would say Jill and Kieran are about equal in supports, because while Kieran has easier partners, Jill gives out better boosts (Def > Hit).

[Tino]

I'm not even going to bother countering kirsche's arguments, as it doesn't matter anyway. It's all rather trivial, since the only time Kieran is truly better than Jill statistically is in the first few chapters. After that, they're pretty much equal. Then Kieran promotes maybe one chapter earlier and he has another lead there, but that's all pretty much shit in the face of flight.

"omg he has some stat leads for a few chapters" is a pretty lulzy argument anyway since Jill is rather good either way. Alright, Kieran promotes one chapter earlier. So what? Is lvl 1 Jill much inferior to lvl 2 Kieran? No. And even if she were, it wouldn't mean a thing since she's good anyway.

[Colonel M]

One thing that needs to kept in track: some of those chapters where Jill would have the "advantage" have Ballistae up there, and she isn't guaranteed to obtain the Full Guard or w/e it's called now.

Just a minor mention.

[-Cynthia-]

One thing that needs to kept in track: some of those chapters where Jill would have the "advantage" have Ballistae up there, and she isn't guaranteed to obtain the Full Guard or w/e it's called now.

Just a minor mention.

You're right, though Jill is arguably more entitled to it than anyone else, being statistically superior and thus being able to do more while moving forward than Haar/Marcia/Tanith/ lol Hawks.

Is anyone opposing Gatrie>Ranulf?

[Colonel M]

Not really. One could assume because of Jill's higher HP / Def figures that she has a little bit less entitlement than, say, Marcia and Tanith. The hawks are pretty good when they're around (Janaff especially, whom I wish was higher on this Tier list because of his starting gauge and such), and Haar I'd say is usually out of the question since he's usually not in play.

Just saying that Jill isn't the only one entitled to the item and that there is competition for it. There really is no solution to such a thing. This thing could even be used on Laguz, Armors, and Social Knights since it supposedly negates all bonus damage.

I'm not debating on either side, I just want to point it out I guess.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You're right, though Jill is arguably more entitled to it than anyone else, being statistically superior and thus being able to do more while moving forward than Haar/Marcia/Tanith/ lol Hawks.

Is anyone opposing Gatrie>Ranulf?

I definitely saw that coming. I'm inclined to put Jill above Kieran if no1 else has anything worthwhile to say.

[dondon151]

Flying utility is very important though:

A couple of those early ones (12, 13) are questionable with Jill's iffy durability. For example I think she's doubled and 2RKO'd by ravens in chapter 12, so that's not a good option for flier utility.

Other than that I agree.

[Colonel M]

Okay, I do want to ask this: why IS Janaff so low?

Looking at this from what I can see, Janaff comes in C18 (which is a little under 10 chapters of being useful). I dunno if anyone really exceeds 16 AS this late in the game (I could be dead wrong: they might), but it seems to me that Janaff would double most units. I'm pretty sure Cats and Swordmasters would be the two classes where he wouldn't double, and I wouldn't take Tiger's to be that great of an accomplishment.

For base stats, he's a bit better than a --/15 Tanith who has 34 HP | 16 Def, which Janaff has of 39 HP | 15 Def upon transformation. Speaking of that, his transformation is quicker than most other units, so he should actually be all set with battling by the second Player Phase.

Dunno about how well he survives bows since I'd have to look what bows are being used. With the Occult Scroll he has a 22% chance of not taking damage at base, which improves a bit once the 70% Skl growth kicks in. Avoid rates are a bit down, but 56 Avoid is about enough to take units such as a Warrior and such Hit rates down under the 50s range. The Halberdier in C18 w/Short Spear has about 100 base Hit, so Janaff has a fair chance of avoiding damage.

Yeah I could be missing something terribly important, so feel free to slap me in the face.

[-Cynthia-]

A couple of those early ones (12, 13) are questionable with Jill's iffy durability. For example I think she's doubled and 2RKO'd by ravens in chapter 12, so that's not a good option for flier utility.

Other than that I agree.

She has a Laguzguard, so she's maybe like 4HKOd. I guess you could argue that she isn't entitled to it, but it's pretty inefficient to trade it away from her in Ch12 and in 13 Marcia's the only other candidate worth having it on.

As for Janaff, his offense is pretty fail. He just doesn't do much damage relative to everyone else at this point of the game and he has gauge to deal with.

Edited July 3, 2009 by -Cynthia-