FE9 Tier List

[Dat Nick]

I'm well aware of Calill's stat leads. What I question is just how often she'll be able to apply them for efficiency. C25 (and that stupid priest heavy chapter if we're going for max BEXP) is no issue but in the other chapters, I find that she's going to need to be carried by a mounted unit with Canto or for the player to slow down his/her team's movement so she can actually see some action... that I don't consider to be a good thing.

And Ilyana doesn't get slowed down...why?

[Zkirsche]

A lot's happened in one day.

What does anyone thing about Reyson > Jill? I've posted this a couple of times and it wasn't contested...

[Tino]

Could you repost the arguments for Reyson, then?

I'm too lazy to search for them, sorry.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Tino

[Zkirsche]

Anyway, I can honestly see reyson going higher also. He works the best with laguz stones and when transformed he has the utiltiy of ~4 units. Let's say he averages the utility of 2 units in one chapter. This gives him +24 chapters of utility. Kieran only has +21 (chapter 15 = neautral utility). Jill has less, but Oscar has more. Then, Reyson has a pretty good support list too (Tanith, Ike, Tormod appreciates his support as well). He can easily get Tanith/Tormod. I'd consider him a very viable option for 3rd best unit in ths game, if not the second.

[Tino]

Talk about over-simplifying the matter.

Firstly, you can't just assign arbitrary values to a character's usefulness. "Hey, this character participates in this chapter so he gets +1 usefulness". That's not how it works. Units can be either relatively good or relatively bad (or absolutely, in a few cases such as Rolf). If their performance is relatively bad, as in below average, the unit provides negative contribution. If their performance is relatively good, as in above average, the unit provides positive contribution.

Secondly, you're simply making the assumption that every chapter has equal weight. Obviously the harder ones have more weight than the more difficult warns. It shouldn't come as a surprise that your units become better more quickly than the enemy units, with the exception of enemy laguz, perhaps. This means that chapters are bound to get relatively easier. Of course Reyson adds more positive to the team when refreshing relatively good units, but this does assume one thing; that he uses laguz stones.

Laguz Stones exist before Reyson joins and before the Demi Band appears. Lethe and Mordecai definitely wouldn't mind being transformed longer during a battle, especially Mordecai, who has a low starting gauge. Not only that, but having a transformed Mordecai/Lethe for longer during a chapter also means having an easier time beating the chapter.

What I'm saying is that laguz stones are an extremely limited resource. There are a grand total of two laguz stones in the game, meaning four laguz stone uses. It's not unlikely that only two will remain for Reyson, and sadly, he can't use the Demi Band. This leaves him untransformed for quite a while, meaning he refreshes one unit most of the time. And the chance that he refreshes three or even four is very low and happens on a very rare occassion, honestly.

But let's assume your average of two units per chapter. Now, are those units actually necessary? What can they do? Can they attack something else? Can they rescue someone? Can they help us beat the chapter in the turn they were refreshed? Those are all factors that play a major role in determining whether the refreshment was actually useful or not, and you completely ignored all of them. If all it does is allow them to move forward after having attacked (or even more worthless, move forward after having moved forward and do nothing else), the refreshment was practically useless except that we may now beat the chapter in one turn less. That one turn doesn't matter, though, since we are unlikely to not gain max BEXP even if we would've taken that turn.

So Reyson's refreshments can be completely useless. Then you neglected another aspect of Reyson: his durability. It's pretty major monkey balls. Any bow user can either OHKO or 2HKO him, which is bad. Not to mention there are ballistae in quite a few chapters. Ch19 immediately comes to mind, which is the second chapter Reyson's available in. And of course they're featured in quite a lot more chapters, such as The Great Bridge and Strange Lands. But bow users and ballistae aren't the only threats for him. 22 HP/2 Def is horrible. Transformed, all he obtains is a measly 1 Def. This means 25 atk is enough to OHKO him. In other words, every single thing on whatever map, with the exception of magic users and perhaps a handful of physical enemies, OHKOes or 2HKOes Reyson. 33 HP/4 Def (5 Def transformed) doesn't quite help this, as it means he's still 2HKOed by everything.

So there's also something that hinders his utility.

So if we would go by your arbitrary values (which are still ridiculous, I'd say), we should substract a few points from the total of 24 due to not being able to refresh someone every turn due to three things: his horrible durability, some refreshments being worthless, and something I didn't mention yet, his horrible movement when untransformed.

Now don't get me wrong. Reyson is a great unit. But considering these, I can't see him rise above Kieran at all and Jill at all. In fact, I could even see Boyd rise above him again.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

And Ilyana doesn't get slowed down...why?

Because an Ilyana that's early promoted may actually see combat and healing since this can happen around C11 and C12, there's less movement issues at this point due to the lack of high MOV units as opposed to the lategame with Calill.

[Shadow Mir]

Now then, why is Haar so high above Geoffrey? Because to be honest, I could see Haar drop.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Haar isn't above Geoffrey.

[Shadow Mir]

Haar isn't above Geoffrey.

Oops... But I still can see Haar dropping.

[Zkirsche]

@Tino: Fair enougth. I was mostly asking for the reasoning behind such a thing anyway, I just put in reasoning for Reyson > Jill to show why I thought that Reyson > Jill.

In fact, I can't really see him being a top tier unit at all. With what you said in mind, I believe he should be below Ike, perhaps even Tanith.

Oops... But I still can see Haar dropping.

Reasoning? I already think that Tormod's worse than him, increasing the gap seems silly.

Edited July 4, 2009 by kirsche

[Dat Nick]

Because an Ilyana that's early promoted may actually see combat and healing since this can happen around C11 and C12

Ilyana and her suck is promoting in 3-4 chapters? Is this a joke or what?

[Tino]

Early promotion with the Master Seal. That's what Sirius was referring to.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Ilyana and her suck is promoting in 3-4 chapters? Is this a joke or what?

Master Seal at lvl 10. It's just 4 level ups and you got some decent combat at the time plus healing while Calill has decent combat for the lategame but is swarmed with high MOV units she's going to constantly require transportation and siege tomes to keep up.

Being useful throughout the midgame > Having MOV issues in the lategame.

[Shadow Mir]

Reasoning? I already think that Tormod's worse than him, increasing the gap seems silly.

He isn't really doing anything in the bridge chapter. The next chapter's even worse for him, due to those Iron Ballistae that have a cumulative reach of almost the entire frigging map. And there's an Iron Ballista in the mountain chapter as well. As if that wasn't enough, they two-shot him.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[Zkirsche]

He isn't really doing anything in the bridge chapter. The next chapter's even worse for him, due to those Iron Ballistae that have a cumulative reach of almost the entire frigging map. And there's an Iron Ballista in the mountain chapter as well. As if that wasn't enough, they two-shot him.

I thought it was agreed that Jill/Haar were the best candidates for the full guard.

[Dat Nick]

Early promotion with the Master Seal. That's what Sirius was referring to.

I know that, but I thought we were promoting Ilyana at 15.

[grandjackal]

Going back to Janaff, I see he didn't rise although he has a completely good reason to, just because of Mia, even though units like Taur and Largo are certainly worse.

This brings me to a question-Should Mia rise? Granted that she has no real supports, but the thing is she can support Rhys who has nothing better to do (and do you honestly think a defensive affinity is REALLY gonna save him?) as his other supports are Titania who could honestly go with anyone, and Keiran who comes a bit later than both. Absolutely no reason she can't have an A with Rhys.

Illyana is kinda fail, but not like there's no reason not to use her early on, both these supports come early. B with Illin, A with Rhys, this is overall a boost of 25 Acc (Mia is NEVER gonna miss), 1 Def, and 4 ATK. With her speed? I'd think having +8 damage as something that's fucking huge. Granted, she's not durable early on, but it's constantly brought up that she's perfectly fine later on.

These two are indeed fragile, but A. they're better than having archers around, and B. they shouldn't be getting attacked regardless. Rhys might be questionable, but I'm sure Illin can take a shot. All three would love to not miss on top of hitting a bit harder as well.

As for how durable she is at her start? Lessee...

3, possibly even 4RKOd by loldiers, same deal with archers, 2RKOd by fighters with steel (which have like 32 displayed hit), 2RKOd by knights, 3RKOd by mages, 3RKOd by myrms, 2RKOd by the boss.

Offensively, she 3-4RKOs soldiers, 2-3RKOs archers, 2-3RKOs fighters, tinks knights without an armorslayer, in which case she 2RKOs due to not doubling (unless she gets a point of speed and fights steel lance armors, which case she 1RKOs) and the weapon reduces her AS to 3, 2RKOs myrmidons and leaves them low, and 2RKOs mages and the healers *facepalm*. Boss she 3RKOs.

To compare, Ike at level 6 is doing worse, due to speed difference and not having enough of a durability lead to matter (1HP ain't saving him, Mia has more avoid)

From there on her offense grows rather steadily with her modest 40% Str and 60%SPD, and is reliant on avoid for her durability as 50% HP and 20% def isn't the hottest durability. Sucks she faces WTD a bit often, but hey. Path of Radiance is a bit more linear on weapon use then say FE8, as it's not like the whole game is swamped in them. They're around pretty often, but I'm just saying.

Take this as you will.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Zkirsche]

From there on her offense grows rather steadily with her modest 40% Str and 60%SPD, and is reliant on avoid for her durability as 50% HP and 20% def isn't the hottest durability. Sucks she faces WTD a bit often, but hey. Path of Radiance is a bit more linear on weapon use then say FE8, as it's not like the whole game is swamped in them. They're around pretty often, but I'm just saying.

I think this is slightly overestimating her problems. 60% speed is good, 40% strength isn't horrible and relying on avo isn't so bad when you have a 165% avo growth. Plus, 50% HP isn't bad, it's only the 20% def that hurts her.

Plus, lance users drop drastically after chapter 8, as I've shown numerous times already.

[grandjackal]

Either way, she's starting off better than Ike will be when they get there.

[Tino]

I know that, but I thought we were promoting Ilyana at 15.

It's what I always thought, too. But apparantly people have decided to make that Lv10 instead, for whatever reason.

[grandjackal]

So no one disagrees with Mia and Janaff>Taur?

[-Cynthia-]

Arguing Tauroneo is really dependent upon two things, whether he has access to Braves and whether it's reasonable for him to get into Resolve range. If he can fix his doubling issues, he's obviously a good character, only lacking in Mov.

For Largo, let's wait until enemy stats come out, because I'm not really sure how bad his durability actually is.

Edited July 4, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

This brings me to a question-Should Mia rise? Granted that she has no real supports, but the thing is she can support Rhys who has nothing better to do (and do you honestly think a defensive affinity is REALLY gonna save him?) as his other supports are Titania who could honestly go with anyone, and Keiran who comes a bit later than both. Absolutely no reason she can't have an A with Rhys.

Illyana is kinda fail, but not like there's no reason not to use her early on, both these supports come early. B with Illin, A with Rhys, this is overall a boost of 25 Acc (Mia is NEVER gonna miss), 1 Def, and 4 ATK. With her speed? I'd think having +8 damage as something that's fucking huge. Granted, she's not durable early on, but it's constantly brought up that she's perfectly fine later on.

These two are indeed fragile, but A. they're better than having archers around, and B. they shouldn't be getting attacked regardless. Rhys might be questionable, but I'm sure Illin can take a shot. All three would love to not miss on top of hitting a bit harder as well.

I have reservation about this. Mia's supports all benefit her more than her partner. Rhys literally gets nothing out of the support. Ilyana doesn't get much help out of 1 extra attack. And Mia getting 25 extra hit is the epitome of superfluous.

[dondon151]

As for how durable she is at her start? Lessee...

3, possibly even 4RKOd by loldiers, same deal with archers, 2RKOd by fighters with steel (which have like 32 displayed hit), 2RKOd by knights, 3RKOd by mages, 3RKOd by myrms, 2RKOd by the boss.

Mia is borderline 2RKO'd by Steel Lance soldiers (17-18 atk WTA factored). Being 2-3RKO'd when the rest of the team has already escaped that phase is not good.

Offensively, she 3-4RKOs soldiers, 2-3RKOs archers, 2-3RKOs fighters, tinks knights without an armorslayer, in which case she 2RKOs due to not doubling (unless she gets a point of speed and fights steel lance armors, which case she 1RKOs) and the weapon reduces her AS to 3, 2RKOs myrmidons and leaves them low, and 2RKOs mages and the healers *facepalm*. Boss she 3RKOs.

Effective bonus is x2 in this game. Mia has 21 atk against 13-15 def armors with 25-27 HP, which 3-4HKO. She can't possibly ORKO armors.

To compare, Ike at level 6 is doing worse, due to speed difference and not having enough of a durability lead to matter (1HP ain't saving him, Mia has more avoid)

Are you kidding me... you've had P through 6 to give only 5 levels to Ike? Ike is probably around level 9 if not a little higher, so he wins by 4 HP, 2 str, and 1.2 def on average. He also gets Regal Sword which lets him double armors for effective damage and a chance to crit.

[Dat Nick]

It's not the hit. It's the ATK.

You know, the other reason Mia's earlygame sucks dick?