FE9 Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

Marcia x Kieran gives her 7 avo, though.

Besides, Tanith can get Oscar and Reyson if she's struggling durably. She gets the same bonuses from reyson as she does Marcia and Oscar gives her much more avo.

A Tanith/Marcia+ B Marcia/ Kieran+ A Oscar/Kieran+ B Tanith-/Oscar or Reyson works out best for everyone involved. Marcia really has no reason to pick up Gatrie unless Kieran/Tanith aren't in play-- pretty unlikely.

Again, Marcia has better options than Gatrie, Astrid doesn't.

Not that it actually matters, as Mak gives out better bonuses anyway due to thunder affinity.

Yeah, but to who? Astrid/Makalov cancels out here, what we have left is a late Haar support that doesn't really help either much by that point and lolBastian, compared to Astrid having a possible but fairly pointless B Gatrie earlier and lolSothe. I don't see Makalov's support leads as significant.

Please refer to my multiple comparisons.

In your later comparison, Astrid is doing 4 more damage per double and doubles more often (Mak has issues with SM's sometimes). For durability, I think 15 Avo> 3 HP/2 Def, it's a pretty big Avo lead. You also didn't factor in the period of time where Astrid is promoted when Makalov isn't, she beats him pretty handily then.

For your earlier comparison, Astrid doing more damage and actually doubling is rather important.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Does this stop the fact she needs to suck up resources and be walled off just to be within general reach just at his base?

Everyone needs to suck up resources to some degree and I'd assume Mak gets the same treatment as Astrid does in terms of favoritism.

As for walling Astrid in, that's basically a nonexistent scenario thanks to hit & run tactics. Astrid isn't going to attack an enemy 6 spaces away, she'll attack one 3 spaces away and then canto 6 in a safe direction. Or, she can hit an enemy that is finished off by someone else, thus leaving her out of danger. In practice, I've never felt as though I needed to offer Astrid any real protection.

Another thing I'd think we'd have to put on hold till Vykan's stats come through.

I have about half the starting enemies in Clash! recorded. Is there something in particular you need to know about lategame?

Also, what's with all this talk about Mak and Astrid's supports? None of them have convenient support triangles, and keeping a huge support chain together is too much of a burden on unit flexibility for what it's worth. Astrid would rather move more freely than get +1 def and +5 avo.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Also, what's with all this talk about Mak and Astrid's supports? None of them have convenient support triangles, and keeping a huge support chain together is too much of a burden on unit flexibility for what it's worth. Astrid would rather move more freely than get +1 def and +5 avo.

That's mainly my point, their options outside of each other are pretty lackluster. However when the claim is that Makalov's supports are "leagues,towers, and mountains above Astrid's", I felt the need to say something.

Back to something much earlier, weighing Shinon's 3.5 chapters of win over Lucia's 6 seems pretty silly, since we weigh chapters with more enemies more. The lategame chapters have a ton more enemies, for example Ch26 has over 3x as many enemies as Ch3. The number of enemies in Ch3 is less than a 1/4 of the enemies in Ch24, and Ch 4 and 6 have less than half as many enemies as those found in most of the later chapters.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Yeah, but to who? Astrid/Makalov cancels out here, what we have left is a late Haar support that doesn't really help either much by that point and lolBastian, compared to Astrid having a possible but fairly pointless B Gatrie earlier and lolSothe. I don't see Makalov's support leads as significant.

Haar appreciates the durability against mages/ballistae.

And i don't think that it's significant either, but it's an advantage that shouldn't be ignored.

In your later comparison, Astrid is doing 4 more damage per double and doubles more often (Mak has issues with SM's sometimes). For durability, I think 15 Avo> 3 HP/2 Def, it's a pretty big Avo lead. You also didn't factor in the period of time where Astrid is promoted when Makalov isn't, she beats him pretty handily then.

2 more damage, not 4. And that 23 AS is enougth to not double 1 measly SM, which he does double if he's slightly speed blessed (Which isn't hard with the KW).

As for durability, here are some numbers:

20/15 Astrid with a forged silver axe, 'A' Mak: 40 HP, 37 Atk, 27 AS, 85 Avo, 19 Def, 15 Res

20/7 Makalov with a forged silver axe, 'A' Astrid, 'C' Haar: 43 HP, 36 Atk, 23 AS, 78 Avo, 20 Def, 9 Res

chapter 24 enemies:

1x Wyvern Rider lv 20 steel lance: 27 atk, 102 hit

2x Fighter lv 20 steel axe: 27 atk, 92 hit

1x Paladin lv 7 silver sword: 28 atk, 107 hit

The wyvern rider's 5RKO Astrid and 7RKO Makalov. The fighters are the same, except Mak can switch to swords for WTA against them. The Paladins 5RKO Astrid and 6RKO Mak, except Mak can switch to a better weapon than what Astrid has to switch to to avoid WTD so also wins avo.

Mak's manipulation of the WT is what helps him become superier to Astrid. If you were talking about right after Mak promotes:

20/6 Astrid with a forged steel axe 'B' Mak: 36 HP, 34 Atk, 24.5 AS, 71-73 Avo, 16 Def, 13 Res

20/1 Makalov with a forged steel axe 'B' Astrid: 39 HP, 33 Atk, 19 AS, 58.5 Avo, 18 Def, 8 Res

9x Raven lv 6-8 beak: 20 atk, 120 hit

1x Wyvern Rider lv 16-18 steel lance: 25 atk, 98 hit

The Raven's 9RKO Astrid at 49-47 displayed hit. they 20RKO makalov at 61.5 displayed hit. Personally, I view mak as the superier against these enemies. The wyvern's 4RKO Astrid and 6RKO Makalov, again, I'd view mak as the superier.

Mak is unpromoted whilst Astrid is promoted for 2, 3 chapters tops. I was accounting for the vast majority of chapters.

For your earlier comparison, Astrid doing more damage and actually doubling is rather important.

Not particularly, Mak can double the occasional enemy too and with those 3 levels of bexp he has a 51.2% chance of having 13 AS. That's enougth to double quite a few enemies.

To show why Astrid's lack of enemy phrase is bad, she can only deal 100% damager against an enemy every turn. Mak can deal ~50% damage to 3 enemies. Mak is clearly the superier.

Edited July 5, 2009 by kirsche

[Vykan12]

23 AS will miss the majority of lategame SMs.

From Clash:

1x Swordmaster lv 9 (steel sword)

34 hp, 22 atk, 20 AS, 123 hit, 46 avo, 10 def, 7 res, 25 crit, 6 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 10 (killing edge)

36 hp, 25 atk, 22 AS, 124 hit, 51 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 55 crit, 7 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 10 (longsword)

35 hp, 21 atk (27 eff), 22 AS, 130 hit, 51 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 24 crit, 7 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 13 (brave sword)

37 hp, 26 atk, 23 AS, 126 hit, 53 avo, 12 def, 8 res, 26 crit, 7 cev

[Zkirsche]

23 AS will miss the majority of lategame SMs.

From Clash:

He'd be a higher level for clash.

[soundecho]

Wtf at Astrid and Mak being anywhere near the same levels. Anyway enemies give 80 exp on her joining chapter for a kill and 33 for hitting them. Ravens give a level when she kills them. So it's fair to say she'll easily be 5/0 at the end of the chapter. Then they both get about 500~ BEXP (both suck without BEXP) which leads to 1000 BEXP for Astrid because of paragon.

Offensively she'll have +1 atk due to bows and a truck ton of AS use due to BEXP + KW then she'll soon promote and start owning him

[Zkirsche]

Wtf at Astrid and Mak being anywhere near the same levels. Anyway enemies give 80 exp on her joining chapter for a kill and 33 for hitting them. Ravens give a level when she kills them. So it's fair to say she'll easily be 5/0 at the end of the chapter. Then they both get about 500~ BEXP (both suck without BEXP) which leads to 1000 BEXP for Astrid because of paragon.

So... we've given Astrid 1000 bexp at level 5/0, meaning she's level 15, and this is different to my comparison how?

Plus, I've given Mak less than that amount. So, if anything, we're actually sandbagging him.

Edited July 5, 2009 by kirsche

[soundecho]

Your levels were fine. I was looking at prettywolfboi's for some reason and didn't see your posts.

[Zkirsche]

Your levels were fine. I was looking at prettywolfboi's for some reason and didn't see your posts.

Any thoughts on it?

[grandjackal]

Everyone needs to suck up resources to some degree and I'd assume Mak gets the same treatment as Astrid does in terms of favoritism.

Difference being that she needs resources just to still be inferior at his base.

As for walling Astrid in, that's basically a nonexistent scenario thanks to hit & run tactics. Astrid isn't going to attack an enemy 6 spaces away, she'll attack one 3 spaces away and then canto 6 in a safe direction. Or, she can hit an enemy that is finished off by someone else, thus leaving her out of danger. In practice, I've never felt as though I needed to offer Astrid any real protection.

Maybe so, but the problem remains that she can't counter. Hitting and running is fine, but I'd rather attack 3 people than 1.

I have about half the starting enemies in Clash! recorded. Is there something in particular you need to know about lategame?

Mainly to measure up some characters, as I recall enemies getting a major spike later on. Can't exactly compare Gatrie to Bastian without stats.

Besides, would be nice to measure up Lucia and Largo with more depth as well.

Also, what's with all this talk about Mak and Astrid's supports? None of them have convenient support triangles, and keeping a huge support chain together is too much of a burden on unit flexibility for what it's worth. Astrid would rather move more freely than get +1 def and +5 avo.

Haar doesn't need a triangle to be good, and he wouldn't mind a simple B with Mak. Haar is a shitton better support than Gatrie and Sothe. The end.

I also feel that Bastian would make more use out of Mak's thunder than Gat would Astrid's wind. Mainly because Gat's a putz, but I can't prove that without stats.

[-Cynthia-]

I keep seeing the "Makalov attacks 3 people, Astrid attacks one", but if Makalov is taking 3 attacks upon jointime, he's going to either constantly require a healer or spend player phases using vulenaries, which is generally less efficient than just killing an enemy every player phase.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

I keep seeing the "Makalov attacks 3 people, Astrid attacks one", but if Makalov is taking 3 attacks upon jointime, he's going to either constantly require a healer or spend player phases using vulenaries, which is generally less efficient than just killing an enemy every player phase.

Of which Astrid can't do without babying. Makalov is capable of killing shit on player phase too. Considering he's weakening his kills for himself to kill, he has far less a problem than someone like Astrid does.

Astrid's not freaking Jamka on a horse here.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Back to something much earlier, weighing Shinon's 3.5 chapters of win over Lucia's 6 seems pretty silly, since we weigh chapters with more enemies more. The lategame chapters have a ton more enemies, for example Ch26 has over 3x as many enemies as Ch3. The number of enemies in Ch3 is less than a 1/4 of the enemies in Ch24, and Ch 4 and 6 have less than half as many enemies as those found in most of the later chapters.

Since when do we give greater weight to chapters with more enemies? If anything, precedent dictates that earlygame chapters get more weight because they're the most difficult and PC choices are the most limited.

Also, earlygame Shinon is head and shoulders above the rest, while lategame both Shinon and Lucia are at the bottom of the bunch. Shinon actually wins over most of the team at some point in time whereas Lucia never does.

Edited July 5, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

SPEAKING of Shinon! A topic I can get behind!

So lets think...He's got earlygame use. Obviously. However, did anyone think of the possible implications of Provoke on him at all? Basically it means we don't have to turtle him in so much, as he can be just behind your frontlines. What's the point of this? Well if most of your guys have ranged weapons regardless, provoke will give him actual enemy phase due to provoke.

Other implications? Well he's also another person who puts Wrath to good use, due to returning...wanting help, provoke, and crit bonus. Suppose Deadeye is doing him no good...

Speaking of skills, Mia can also put use to Gamble with her sheer accuracy, and actually noticeable crit rate

[-Cynthia-]

Since when do we give greater weight to chapters with more enemies? If anything, precedent dictates that earlygame chapters get more weight because they're the most difficult and PC choices are the most limited.

Also, earlygame Shinon is head and shoulders above the rest, while lategame both Shinon and Lucia are at the bottom of the bunch. Shinon actually wins over most of the team at some point in time whereas Lucia never does.

This is from Mekkah, not me:

"Every chapter should be weighed, but not equally. FE8 Prologue has 3 enemies, whereas Ch20 has at least 80. Obviously chapters with lots of enemies have more weight than chapters with few enemies: it's better to be good against 80 enemies than to be good against 3."

Lucia and Shinon both sucking is pretty irrelevant, as Lucia is sucking significantly less than Shinon, which is the important thing in their comparison. I just don't see why we're valuing 3.5 chapters with less enemies as more important than 6 chapters with more enemies, none of the other earlygame characters seem to have elevation due to earlygame.

@PrettyBoiWolf We still have to turtle Shinon against every single 1 range and 1-2 range enemy on the map, so Provoke isn't helping him much. I guess he can counter Snipers, which account for about 10% of all enemies and he has trouble doubling anyway.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This is from Mekkah, not me:

"Every chapter should be weighed, but not equally. FE8 Prologue has 3 enemies, whereas Ch20 has at least 80. Obviously chapters with lots of enemies have more weight than chapters with few enemies: it's better to be good against 80 enemies than to be good against 3."

Lucia and Shinon both sucking is pretty irrelevant, as Lucia is sucking significantly less than Shinon, which is the important thing in their comparison. I just don't see why we're valuing 3.5 chapters with less enemies as more important than 6 chapters with more enemies, none of the other earlygame characters seem to have elevation due to earlygame.

Correction, 3.5 chapters with less enemies but less power among your army.

6 chapters with more enemies but a time where your army is fucking ridiculously powerful.

You said it yourself, healing is less valuable in the lategame, so then it's safe to assume that your army isn't having any trouble with those failures in the lategame.

I can see why Mekkah would say that for FE8 since enemies are ALWAYS shit even in the earlygame but that sure as hell ain't the case here.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

@PrettyBoiWolf We still have to turtle Shinon against every single 1 range and 1-2 range enemy on the map, so Provoke isn't helping him much. I guess he can counter Snipers, which account for about 10% of all enemies and he has trouble doubling anyway.

At least Provoke in this way helps him get enemy phase, which lets him still keep par with your army, as opposed to most games where archers get no attention whatsoever.

His earlygame helps him get some help early on, but he does suck pretty bad upon rejoining, but at least he's growing greater than your other units.

...Shinon is a weird character to measure.

I mean come on...should he REALLY be under Largo?

Edited July 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Correction, 3.5 chapters with less enemies but less power among your army.

6 chapters with more enemies but a time where your army is fucking ridiculously powerful.

You said it yourself, healing is less valuable in the lategame, so then it's safe to assume that your army isn't having any trouble with those failures in the lategame.

I can see why Mekkah would say that for FE8 since enemies are ALWAYS shit even in the earlygame but that sure as hell ain't the case here.

Then we need to move up Gatrie. Comparing 20/11 Gatrie to base level Haar, Gatrie has a 4 HP, 5 Atk, and 8 Def lead over Haar unsupported, with Haar only holding a 5 AS lead easily erased by some KW usage for Gatrie. Of course Haar has more Mov/Canto/flight, but it doesn't actually matter if Haar wins, because Gatrie has those 3.5 earlygame chapters, right? This really isn't that much different from Shinon vs. Lucia, except she has stat leads insead of deficits except for the Mov thing, though she has a range advantage.

It just seems like a double standard. I'm not sure whether the issue is with Shinon's placement or Gatrie's, but it strikes me as an inconsistency. I think the difficulty of the earlygame chapters in generally overrated, Ch3 is a joke, Ike has near constant WTA and everyone else is being like 6HKOd. The later chapters become harder, but Shinon also becomes less useful, he's dealing much less damage on Ch7 than he was back in Ch3, while Oscar/Boyd/Ike/Gatrie have improved since then.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I don't see how it's an inconsistency when I never even moved Haar based on a comparison with Gatrie. If Gatrie can rise above him due to this, he will.

EDIT: Actually I fail to see how Haar's above him atm but I'll let some1 fill me in on that and see where it goes.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Then let Gatrie rise, as no way is Haar falling, unless Geoff falls with him.

Even though I deeply disagree with this, simply because 5 AS would actually mean a real lead, along with move lead, utility, non-shitty WT combo, supports that actually want him/are actually around him...

[-Cynthia-]

Then let Gatrie rise, as no way is Haar falling, unless Geoff falls with him.

Even though I deeply disagree with this, simply because 5 AS would actually mean a real lead, along with move lead, utility, non-shitty WT combo, supports that actually want him/are actually around him...

The 5 AS lead is erased by Gatrie having the KW for every other levelup, obviusly if Gatrie gets full KW access the lead is more significant. Even without it, the only enemies Haar doubles that Gatrie doesn't are Wyverns and a few Halbs, Gatrie wins offense against every other enemy, especially if both are using a Brave which is likely. As for supports, Haar's partners are better but Gatrie supports for lonher so it's a wash. Axes are better than Lances, but Gatrie also has a significant Str lead over Haar.

I'm not going to deny that 3 Mov+ Canto + flight are important, but under the principle of Shinon being where he is (earlygame chapters having over double the weight of lategame chapters), Gatrie could actually be losing to Haar everyhwere and still end up winning due to earlygame utility. This argument applies to many of the characters above Gatrie, definitely Tormod and possibly through Geoffrey.

Edited July 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Mak vs Astrid, Sirius?

The 5 AS lead is erased by Gatrie having the KW for every other levelup,

Gatrie starts at level 9, to get to 20/11 he has to get 22 level up's. Of those, only 21 are affected by the KW. To erase Haar's speed lead Gatrie needs 17 uses of the knight ward. That's 17/21 level up's where you gave gatrie the KW, I did the same with Brom a few pages back, and that was easily dismissed, this situation is no different and should not be treated differently. Haar easily has a speed lead and it does matter against the occasional enemy.

See, Gatrie's where he is because, whilst his earlygame utility is improtant, other units have much more use than Gatrie does in the other chapters. Unlike Lucia vs Shinon, Haar is actually decent in some of his chapters. I believe you're exaggerating the extent of the weight we're giving Shinon's earlygame. It's important yes, but his uselessness everywhere else cannot simply be ignored.

I would like to emphasise how important more mobility is in a team, filled with paladins, fliers and laguz.

definitely Tormod

I'm still pondering why Tormod > Haar. Haar has flying utility, canto, much better durability and doesn't require the babying Tormod needs to get good.

Edited July 5, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm still pondering why Tormod > Haar. Haar has flying utility, canto, much better durability and doesn't require the babying Tormod needs to get good.

Because no1 has argued against it with Tino on this thread and I figured I should move him to spark something.

I'm not seeing Mak above Astrid.

[Shadow Mir]

Speaking of skills, Mia can also put use to Gamble with her sheer accuracy, and actually noticeable crit rate

Though I see Gamble as doing more harm than good. Which is better, 100 Hit and 50 Crit or 50 Hit and 100 Crit? I'd say the former, for obvious reasons.