FE9 Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

Also keep in mind his skill and luck are generally lower than Mia's, who herself has problems using it even maxed supports for accuracy.

Anyways Largo. It is shown that he doesn't have real durability problems. He should rise. Example, Geoffery's that high. Geoffery has a mountain to deal with, while Largo couldn't give a shit. Also due to his high HP, he is better at taking boulders. He also has a serious offensive advantage. I'd say the win goes to Largo off the bat.

Even considering, while Geoff might have a defensive advantage at endgame, Largo's got a serious offense advantage. Largo can freaking one-round some of the bastards in endgame, Geoff has no hope of doing this without like a brave lance. Actually scratch that, he can't because thanks to his base speed he averages a point SHORT of doubling the most common enemy on the map, so Largo has a seriously wtf offense advantage on Geoff.

I'd say Largo has every reason to rise up at LEAST to his level, perhaps even above him. Geoff might take less resources, but Largo puts said resources to good use.

What is it with you and Geoffrey? Geoffrey arguably has an offensive lead, he's only one point of speed behind Largo at base, but he has the higher growth rate (55/85 compared to 45) and levels much faster due to Paragon. If Geoffrey has some minor speed issue at base, we can simply give him a level of BEXP, which is a minimal drain on resources.

Their offense isn't even very far apart, not even considering Geoffrey doubles more. Largo only has ~ a 4 Atk advantage at base and this decreases over time. Let's do an offensive comparison later in the game:

--/13 Largo (forged Silver Axe)

46 Atk 23 AS

--/19 Geoffrey (forged Silver Lance, B Calill)

44 Atk 23 AS

Geoffrey can also double more things given a little KW access, Cats and SM's and such.

On defense, Geoffrey is beating Largo anywhere from 11-13 Def and 6-8 Res, pretty large leads. Geoffrey has more Mov and Canto, Ch25 is the only map this isn't an advantage on, for the rest of their availability it's pretty important.

So yeah, Largo> Geoffrey is just stupid. You're anti-Geoffrey stance is still pretty poorly supported, since you have some vague notion that Geoffrey has serious issues ORKOing or doubling, you're still blowing Ch25 out of proportion, there's 4 other maps to consider.

Edited July 6, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

I still don't get why forges are applicable here but not in the SD topic. If anything you'd think there'd be some issues with forging being favoritism due to being able to forge only one item starting on C8. I understand a bit with FE10 forging because we can forge more than one item. True under the circumstance that FE9 lacks the problem of money, but the limit of forges is pretty hard to make it applicable IMO.

[Dat Nick]

Wolf has a thing for misinterpreting what I say on AIM.

Geoffrey>Largo is definitely justified, but what I don't think is is the tier gap between them, considering Largo doesn't really die that often [solid concrete durability, running 3-6HKos and decent avo]

also

Chapter 25

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)

37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev

3x Cat lv 9-10 (claw)

42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Raven lv 11 (beak)

38 hp, 21 atk, 20 AS, 124 hit, 42 avo, 14 def, 11 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Hawk lv 12 (beak)

42 hp, 25 atk, 19 AS, 129 hit, 41 avo, 16 def, 9 res, 9 crit, 3 cev

1x Tiger lv 14 (claw)

49 hp, 34 atk, 18 AS, 133 hit, 39 avo, 20 def, 9 res, 10 crit, 3 cev

2x Fighter lv 19 (steel axe)

40 hp, 26 atk, 12 AS, 90 hit, 29 avo, 13 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 5 cev

3x Warrior lv 6-7 (steel axe, 1 steel bow)

46 hp, 27 atk, 12 AS, 94 hit, 29 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

1x Warrior lv 9 (laguz axe)

49 hp, 32 atk (45 eff), 13 AS, 96 hit, 31 avo, 13 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

1x Warrior lv 10 (steel axe)

47 hp, 30 atk, 13 AS, 97 hit, 32 avo, 13 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 6 cev

1x Sniper lv 6 (longbow, iron cool.gif

33 hp, 19 atk, 15 AS, 108 hit, 35 avo, 13 def, 8 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

3x Sniper lv 7 (steel bow, 2 onager)

32 hp, 23 atk, 15 AS, 111 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 10 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 6 (laguzslayer [d])

32 hp, 23 atk (32 eff), 20 AS, 116 hit, 45 avo, 10 def, 6 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 7 (steel sword)

35 hp, 22 atk, 19 AS, 117 hit, 44 avo, 10 def, 6 res, 24 crit, 6 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 8 (silver sword)

34 hp, 28 atk, 21 AS, 123 hit, 47 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

2x Halberdier lv 6 (steel lance, 1 short spear, 1 vulnerary)

38 hp, 23 atk, 13 AS, 105 hit, 31 avo, 13 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

1x Halberdier lv 6 (knight killer)

40 hp, 20 atk (27 eff), 11 AS, 102 hit, 26 avo, 13 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 4 cev

1x Halberdier lv 9 (steel lance)

42 hp, 25 atk, 15 AS, 105 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

1x Sage lv 6 (elthunder, mend)

30 hp, 22 atk, 13 AS, 94 hit, 29 avo, 10 def, 16 res, 16 crit, 3 cev

1x Bishop lv 4 (shine, physic, mend)

30 hp, 18 atk, 9 AS, 101 hit, 26 avo, 5 def, 21 res, 4 crit, 8 cev

1x Bishop lv 5 (purge [d], mend)

30 hp, 26 atk, 7 AS, 97 hit, 23 avo, 6 def, 21 res, 4 crit, 9 cev

Gromell lv 14 (bolt axe [d], elixir)

47 hp, 26 atk, 17 AS, 121 hit, 47 avo, 23 def, 15 res, 9 crit, 13 cev

Turn 3 Reinforcements:

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)

37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev

1x Cat lv 10 (claw)

42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Raven lv 12 (beak)

38 hp, 22 atk, 21 AS, 127 hit, 45 avo, 14 def, 11 res, 8 crit, 3 cev

I don't see anything with 17 AS here. That means Geoffrey doubles a grand total of nothing that Largo doesn't. In fact, on higher AS enemies, Largo wins more since he might be able to kill what he can't double due to crit whereas Geoffrey never does.

Edited July 6, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[-Cynthia-]

Wolf has a thing for misinterpreting what I say on AIM.

Geoffrey>Largo is definitely justified, but what I don't think is is the tier gap between them, considering Largo doesn't really die that often [solid concrete durability, running 3-6HKos and decent avo]

Now this seems more reasonable, I could see Largo in Lower Mid. A comparison against Tauroneo might go better than a comparison against Geoffrey, since he actually might have a substantial offensive lead on top of a Mov lead.

@ Colonel M We're probably only using 10-12 units anyway, some of which are laguz or ORKO without forges, so giving a forge to every character is reasonable IMO, though performance without forges should be considered

@GreenHairedDraco, Geoffrey reaching 22+ Spd with the KW is fairly likely, depending on how much CEXP/BEXP he's getting. You also missed Gromell.

Edited July 6, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

It should, which would help the Mist case of dropping a little bit more.

As for the Geoffery task at hand, I calculated about 4 levels of the Knight Ward SHOULD get him 22 AS.

[grandjackal]

Fine fine, perhaps I'm a bit too biased against Geoff...

Well I think a more viable comparison is someone above Tauroneo, because...well...there is no way he doesn't murder Taur.

Perhaps Haar or Ranulf.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

I still don't get why forges are applicable here but not in the SD topic. If anything you'd think there'd be some issues with forging being favoritism due to being able to forge only one item starting on C8. I understand a bit with FE10 forging because we can forge more than one item. True under the circumstance that FE9 lacks the problem of money, but the limit of forges is pretty hard to make it applicable IMO.

I think part of this is that in FE11, forges for the most part are basically designed to have characters OHKO or ORKO enemies (i.e. effective weapons), so it doesn't matter who gets them, while in FE9 forged weapons are more sensitive to an individual unit's parameters.

[Colonel M]

I think part of this is that in FE11, forges for the most part are basically designed to have characters OHKO or ORKO enemies (i.e. effective weapons), so it doesn't matter who gets them, while in FE9 forged weapons are more sensitive to an individual unit's parameters.

This depends. While I will admit to the class effective weapons gaining a little more use out of this, what of other weapons? This argument can still be flung right back to the specific characters in this game. You can't really make uber forges in FE11 either (like +10 Mt would be unnacceptable, but something like +3 Mt I'd see as reasonable for some cases).

One problem is you have to be a little bit more practical in FE11's case, though no matter how you slice it forges in either of these games could be hinted as favoritism.

[dondon151]

This depends. While I will admit to the class effective weapons gaining a little more use out of this, what of other weapons? This argument can still be flung right back to the specific characters in this game. You can't really make uber forges in FE11 either (like +10 Mt would be unnacceptable, but something like +3 Mt I'd see as reasonable for some cases).

One problem is you have to be a little bit more practical in FE11's case, though no matter how you slice it forges in either of these games could be hinted as favoritism.

Stuff like +3 MT on Hammer OHKOs armors forever, +3-4 MT on Ridersbane OHKOs cavs and horsemen, +1-2 MT on Armorslayer 2HKOs armors, etc. You could probably give that Ridersbane to Sedgar or Matthis and it wouldn't make a difference because they'd still blick everything. Adding +3 MT on generic weapons is expensive and grants the character marginally more damage compared to effective weapons, which combined murder the majority of enemies in the game.

And then there's the issue of cash, because I'm finding myself rather broke after forging a couple of +3 or +4 MT weapons.

[Colonel M]

I've already said that forging class effective weapons is the main issue.

Forging Mt on the weapons pends on how crazy we're going to. Supposedly it's about 8K to forge a Silver Axe, though a lot of times I have a decent amount of cash on me. Sometimes I'm a bit broke but it's because I buy way too much sometimes (Steel Weapons come to mind).

[-Cynthia-]

This is becoming more about FE11 forging than FE9 forging and this is a FE9 tier list thread.

Anyway, Largo. If we want to compare him to Ranulf/Haar he's losing in 1.5-2 chapters of availability, which shouldn't be forgotten.

Largo also loses durability to both of them, as well as Mov. On the flip side, he's dealing 3-8 more damage per hit than Ranulf(forgeless compared to forge), though Ranulf doubles more frequently, Largo having 1-2 range is nice though. Largo and Haar hit about as hard, except Largo doubles much more frequently. Haar also has a decent support list though.

It's pretty close, all in all. I think moving Largo over Tauroneo is fair though, axes+ more Mov+ actually doubling > mostly overkill durability+ a little availability. Actually I can't see Ranulf>Largo either, once we consider Ranulf has gauge to deal with.

Overall, I'm going to say Haar> Largo. It's Haar's Mov/Canto/flight, durability, supports, availability and WT control against Largo's AS lead. Largo's AS lead can be somewhat nullified with a Brave (though this gives Largo an Atk lead), Haar's leads can't really be overcome easily. So Largo above Ranulf and below Haar sounds fair to me.

Gatrie still hasn't been moved yet. I haven't seen many people contest Gatrie>Haar, and I wager many of the same arguments apply for Gatrie> Devdan, Devdan's a tad faster and more available but also lacks a big Mov lead over Gatrie.

Edited July 6, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Devden also has better supports that might actually want him, and needs less effort to be used.

Same with Haar, but on a greater scale.

[-Cynthia-]

Devden also has better supports that might actually want him, and needs less effort to be used.

Same with Haar, but on a greater scale.

Needs less effort to be used? What does that mean?

Devdan's supports aren't really that much better than Gatrie's. Gatrie's Ilyana support is fairly good, they match Mov and Ilyana could use a Def boost. Devdan has Nephenee, who's an OK support, except Neph gets better bonuses from Brom or Callil (Def or Avo > Hit). Gatrie has an Astrid support which is somewhat decent if only for the fact that Astrid has trouble filling her B.

Gatrie has a Marcia support she doesn't really want, Devdan has a Tormod support he doesn't really need (same boosts from Reyson, better boosts from Callil). Shinon/Largo will both take them for lack of better options, I guess the Largo support is slightly better since Largo's more likely to be fielded, but neither one really has great support options. We've been over Haar already, providing 2 lategame durability boosts to super durable characters is not that great.

Stat time

20/1 Gatrie (B Ilyana)

43 HP 21 Str 10 AS 23 Def 8 Res

20/8 Devdan (B Nephenee)

39 HP 17 Str 14 AS 13 Def 11 Res

So Gatrie is winning durability and attack by a fair margin, and due to a lower level these leads will only increase over time. Devdan's AS lead looks big, but remember this is without the KW. Gatrie will gain more from the KW than Devdan does because Gatrie has more potential time with it and more levels to gain, so the AS gap will get lower. Gatrie can also switch over to the Brave Sword/Brave Lance later in the game and still beat Devdan in attack.

The real kicker is Gatrie's 3.5 chapters of availability earlygame. Apparently these chapters are weighed more than any other chapter in the game, and Gatrie is arguably your second best unit (best durability, ORKOes many enemies while 2RKOing everything else, has an enemy phase etc.) So even if Devdan does win their shared availability by a small margin, Gatrie wins.

[soundecho]

@ Kirsche since I can't be stuffed quoting

I thought you were talking about chapter 14. Mak, does not want to use swords at all, that drops his attack big time. And Astrid's still beating him in attack usually even with WTA.

And the chances of getting a hand axe forge are pretty low. Especially when we have half of the top tiers wanting to have one.

I don't see a problem in giving a forge to Astrid and Mak after they join. You have 5~ chapters of forging before that and in that space, you could've given everyone that needs a forge (i.e Neph, Marcia).

[Vykan12]

Mak, does not want to use swords at all, that drops his attack big time.

An iron blade is only 2 less Mt than a steel axe so he doesn't mind using either unless we toss him a forge.

[Tino]

True. But people always seem to forget about blades.... For whatever reason.

[Dat Nick]

Blades are pretty damn rare, and I don't see why Mak wouldn't want to use a Steel Axe, anyway.

[Vykan12]

You can buy them pretty early, so why not stock up on them?

I don't see why Mak wouldn't want to use a Steel Axe, anyway.

He loses 2 damage against enemy axe users per double in exchange for a huge accuracy boost.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Vykan12

[Zkirsche]

Mak, does not want to use swords at all, that drops his attack big time.

You can get steel blades or steel sword forges. More WTC is good in any scenario.

And Astrid's still beating him in attack usually even with WTA.

Actually, they tie. Thier atk is usually the same with it.

And the chances of getting a hand axe forge are pretty low. Especially when we have half of the top tiers wanting to have one.

I don't see a problem in giving a forge to Astrid and Mak after they join. You have 5~ chapters of forging before that and in that space, you could've given everyone that needs a forge (i.e Neph, Marcia).

You pretty much said what I would've said.

[Rodykitty]

Not needing a forge > needing/wanting one.

Not needing one: Some other character that needs it can have it, basically handing forges to other characters.

Needing one: The character is taking away from/sharing with another character that may want a forge.

[soundecho]

He loses 2 damage against enemy axe users per double in exchange for a huge accuracy boost.

Then the gap widens a ton when its comes to any non axe users, so then you improve you performance for one enemy but you suck against the rest, so on stuff like the enemy phase. He's screwed unless he was danced by Reyson or someone traded with him.

[Zkirsche]

Then the gap widens a ton when its comes to any non axe users, so then you improve you performance for one enemy but you suck against the rest, so on stuff like the enemy phase. He's screwed unless he was danced by Reyson or someone traded with him.

Are you implying that units like Makalov do not have an advantage over units like Nephenee through better control over the weapon triangle? Because he does.

You're really overestimating this sword thing. He can swap to silver/blades for little negative impact on his offence. It's at least better than Astrid's with her secondary weapon (Bows).

Needing one: The character is taking away from/sharing with another character that may want a forge.

I don't see a problem in giving a forge to Astrid and Mak after they join. You have 5~ chapters of forging before that and in that space, you could've given everyone that needs a forge (i.e Neph, Marcia).

Edited July 7, 2009 by kirsche

[Shadow Mir]

You can buy them pretty early, so why not stock up on them?

I'd say that the problem with blades is the fact that they're heavy.

[Dat Nick]

20/1 Mak can use blades without any AS loss, so no issue there.

[-Cynthia-]

Are you implying that units like Makalov do not have an advantage over units like Nephenee through better control over the weapon triangle? Because he does.

You're really overestimating this sword thing. He can swap to silver/blades for little negative impact on his offence. It's at least better than Astrid's with her secondary weapon (Bows).

Bows aren't totally useless though, since Astrid has almost unlimited Bow access(she might have to share with Geoffrey later), she gets free Brave Bow/Killer/Laguz usage, as well as being able to ORKO Wyverns. Remember that we can trade it away for Astrid's axe on the enemy phase. It's not a huge advantage, but not particularly worse than swords.

Edited July 7, 2009 by -Cynthia-