FE9 Tier List

[dondon151]

I'm not aware that Lethe can use a Laguz Band, nor am I aware that they are available as soon as she joins.

[grandjackal]

I'm not aware that Lethe can use a Laguz Band, nor am I aware that they are available as soon as she joins.

Lethe: Hi, I'm Lethe, and I start every battle transformed. Arguably, the start of the battle is always the hardest, and allows me to not be left in the dust by the paladins.

[dondon151]

Lethe: Hi, I'm Lethe, and I start every battle transformed.

Right, and you don't end every battle transformed. Pretending like you're always transformed when you're not always transformed is a misrepresentation of information and is responsible for hype in tier list discussions.

Arguably, the start of the battle is always the hardest,

Arguably, the middle or end of the battle is always the hardest. Care to show any reasoning behind this when very often there are extremely few enemies that can be attacked on turn 1?

[grandjackal]

Right, and you don't end every battle transformed. Pretending like you're always transformed when you're not always transformed is a misrepresentation of information and is responsible for hype in tier list discussions.

Well Stefan can't pretend he's not getting hit with a crit now can he? Vykan showed numbers, he's not exactly safe here.

Even more, this means Stefan is arguably a bit more dangerous to allow enemy phase, as every more enemy that goes after him is another chance for him to get crit'd.

Arguably, the middle or end of the battle is always the hardest. Care to show any reasoning behind this when very often there are extremely few enemies that can be attacked on turn 1?

Because in the middle or end of a battle, you have a solid footing by then. At the start, you gotta move the fuck out, take care of shit first. Chapter 9 comes to mind, and so does the chapter after Ike's promotion. Gotta go save the houses by Makalov, hell...Who's recruiting Stefan faster and thus getting us through the desert chapter faster?

Besides, a unit with instant usability>not so...*foreshadowing*

Edited July 8, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Bright]

Well Stefan can't pretend he's not getting hit with a crit now can he? Vykan showed numbers, he's not exactly safe here.

Even more, this means Stefan is arguably a bit more dangerous to allow enemy phase, as every more enemy that goes after him is another chance for him to get crit'd.

Because in the middle or end of a battle, you have a solid footing by then. At the start, you gotta move the fuck out, take care of shit first. Chapter 9 comes to mind, and so does the chapter after Ike's promotion. Gotta go save the houses by Makalov, hell...Who's recruiting Stefan faster and thus getting us through the desert chapter faster?

Besides, a unit with instant usability>not so...*foreshadowing*

1. Getting hit with a crit is totally the end of the world, and not just like getting doubled, mirite? Stefan's good durability when he joins (on par with Ike, anyway) and decent durability later allow him some breathing room as long as you aren't sending him to solo.

2. This whole argument is pretty useless as far as who gets some kind of advantage; we can all agree that fighting all / most the time > fighting part of the time and being a waste of space otherwise, right? So it's about how much of an advantage that actually is, and such a thing varies far too much on playstyle. Let's leave it at a small advantage for Stefan, especially because there's a way to eliminate the quarrel altogether later in the game, and go from there.

3. Foreshadowing isn't helping your case; get on with it.

[Shadow Mir]

1. Getting hit with a crit is totally the end of the world, and not just like getting doubled, mirite? Stefan's good durability when he joins (on par with Ike, anyway) and decent durability later allow him some breathing room as long as you aren't sending him to solo.

Again, while getting hit with a critical may not kill Stefan outright, it can leave him weak enough for another enemy to kill him.

[-Cynthia-]

You opposed Kieran>Reyson, so how the hell can you support Reyson>Ike?

Because I think Kieran is better than Ike, duh.

As for Stefan> Lethe, while they might be nearly equal at base, Stefan gets better over time due to silver weapons/ forges, his weapon has 10 Mt over Lethe's, while Lethe is not pulling anywhere near a 10 Str lead over Stefan(they're about even in Str really). Add in that Lethe may have doubling issues lategame while Stefan never has doubling issues and the fact that Stefan has ~30 more crit and his offensive lead is quite substantial.

Citing Astra as a detriment is pretty silly, Stefan has a chance to crit during every Astra hit, so going through all 5 uses is unlikely. Having 5 chances to crit is pretty nice on enemies he isn't ORKOing anyway. Astra isn't a huge advantage, but it's not a detriment either.

Lethe's supports really aren't that great, especially considering her affinity. Jill gets better boosts from Mist/Haar anyway, the durability boost to Muarim is mostly superfluous, as is the very tiny boost that Lethe/Ranulf provides. Stefan/Soren isn't winning any awards for best support ever, but since they're both out of other options, it has some value. lethe does win supports, but not by much.

Edited July 8, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Transformation issues I can sum up like this.

The difference between an untransformed laguz and a normal unit is how often they counter. Obviously, Lethe can't counter all the time due to transformation, but neither can Stefan due to luck problems making him too much a risk. Stefan also lags behind the paladin line, something Lethe does not. I'd say the action that either are seeing are about equal. However, I'd say Lethe being able to more effectively wall off an assault is of better use than Stefan's minor offensive advantage. After all, Lethe has a much easier chance of surviving, even untransformed, as not only is she more durable, but she doesn't run the risk of a crit blowing up in her face.

If neither are getting us through the chapter faster than the other, then I'd say Lethe causing us to reset much less gives her the favor.

You also have to keep in mind her supports, which don't vanish untransformed. Even then, she can still help the team, and she happens to be helping Muarim and Jill. Helping these two>Barely helping Soren.

To Cynthia, you seriously telling me giving Lethe 13 levels over the course of 20 chapters is not happening? You basically need 24 AS to double everything, and she gets it level 16.

Also lol at Lethe's supports having better options. Muarim has who else, Largo? Jill has who else, Haar? These two come incredibly late, and the only benefits they give their partners is 4 more avoid. Yippee...Giving both these guys 1 defense and 6 avoid earlier is better than waiting a shitton later just for 4 more avoid.

Stefan doesn't even help Soren. 1 ATK and 9 avoid is not fixing any of his problems, and keep in mind this doesn't kick in until chapter 25. Both of Lethe's Bs kick in sooner than that.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Lethe may not have severe doubling issues, but she is going to miss on lategame SM's, possibly Cats/Dragons as well. It's just another portion of why Stefan's offensive lead isn't "minor". I would call a 2 Def as opposed to 2 HP, 7 Avo and some Res a minor lead. Lethe does gain more durability over time, but Stefan's attack lead increases even more. Let's compare them in lategame offensively.

--/14 Stefan (B Soren)

36 Atk with a Silver Sword, 41 Atk with a forge. 38 Crit with forge, 29 without. 28 AS.

--/13 Lethe (no offensive boosting supports)

31 Atk with Claw, 8 Crit, 22 AS.

Big difference. There's a good chance Stefan's doing 20 more damage per round.

Edited July 8, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I concede that Stefan > Lethe.

However, I'm still unsure why Reyson > Ike, or even why Ike is in high and not top. Boyd is definitely not a tier ahead of him.

[-Cynthia-]

I concede that Stefan > Lethe.

However, I'm still unsure why Reyson > Ike, or even why Ike is in high and not top. Boyd is definitely not a tier ahead of him.

Yeah, I don't really know why Boyd's in Top. He has durability issues (and doubling issues) earlygame. He grows out of this and gets much better, but then falls behind a lot of people post promotion. Getting bows doesn't help much, if at all, and Boyd is constantly being outrun by Paladins and flyers. Boyd also has some doubling issues, especially near Endgame where enemy speeds spike. He'll never be doubling SM's/Cats and will only be doubling 20 AS enemies at max level, and there's a 45% chance he can't even do that then.

Edited July 8, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Bright]

Wolf, you are saying that:

a. Lethe will see the same amount of battling as Stefan because she can keep up with the first line.

b. Lethe has better defenses.

c. Lethe's supports are viable to keep active when Lethe is untransformed, not to mention better for the team.

d. Lethe is more or less doubling everything anyway, so Stefan isn't that far ahead offensively.

This is correct? And you still like that position?

[grandjackal]

Considering they practically have the same base strength, she has more time and levels to grow on top of the fact they have the same damn growth, if anything it'll just turn to Lethe getting a tie with him. Two levels we give Lethe and then Stefan joins. A tad generous I should note, and we're giving Stefan a Steel Blade.

Lethe ATK-27

Stefan ATK-30

6 damage lead is fucking minor, and this is with the strongest weapon he can get at the time save his Vague Katti, which would be a waste at this point. Another note is the avoid lead of his at these 2 levels has closed to 4, while she now ties him in HP, and beats him soundly in luck by 9, def by 2 (next level, it'll be 3), and 3 Res. So he's getting hit harder by everything, and runs the risk of being crit'd. Keep in mind, she has better avoid growth and durability growths, and levels faster along with having 2 durability boosting supports. All leads she has on him she keeps, and only steadily grows. Example.

Level 10 Lethe B Jill B Muarim- 42 HP, 29 ATK, 70 Avoid, 18 Def, 11 Res

Level 11 Stefan B Mordy, B Soren- 41 HP, 33 ATK, 63 Avoid, 13 Def, 10 Res, still runs hefty chances of getting crit'd.

1 HP, 7 Avoid, 5 Def and 1 Res and not running the chance of being crit'd>6 damage lead. Hell, Stefan's got enemies that can crit him his joining goddamn chapter, unpromoted enemies no less.

Those "some" swordmasters and cats also are a danger to Stefan, as they have a crit rate on him (even with 0 skill and he at max level and 2 goddess icons, they'd STILL have a crit rate on him of 3. Swordmasters anyways). Let's check numbers.

Endgame? There are like 6 enemies on the entire map who don't have a crit rate on him. However, there are quite a few units that endanger Stefan's soul. This is assuming max level Stefan.

1x Sniper lv 15 (killer bow)

36 hp, 26 atk, 20 AS, 127 hit, 48 avo, 15 def, 11 res, 56 crit, 8 cev - Running 48 crit, 50-60 displayed hit.

1x Wyvern Lord lv 14 (killer lance, short axe)

45 hp, 33 atk, 15 AS, 111 hit, 37 avo, 22 def, 6 res, 38 crit, 7 cev- Running 30 crit with similar hit to the above thanks to WTA, and this dude ORKOs him with a crit, even with Mordy's B.

1x Sage lv 13 (bolting, thoron)

34 hp, 32 atk, 11 AS, 102 hit, 27 avo, 12 def, 20 res, 13 crit, 5 cev

1x Bishop lv 15 (rexaura, fortify, elixir)

34 hp, 32 atk, 11 AS, 123 hit, 36 avo, 11 def, 25 res, 11 crit, 14 cev - Hoark, mages running crit on him, and he's dying to their crit no matter what. Hit is a bit poor though, 30-50 displayed. Still, this made me giggle.

1x Dragon lv 15 (breath)

59 hp, 46 atk, 19 AS, 136 hit, 42 avo, 31 def, 26 res, 10 crit, 4 cev

2x Dragon lv 17 (breath)

59 hp, 48 atk, 21 AS, 143 hit, 47 avo, 33 def, 28 res, 12 crit, 5 cev - Neither should be fighting these punks, but Lethe can actually take 3 shots of the weaker dragon at level 16. What? Offense advantage? YIPPEE! Stefan with the Vague Katti doing 5-3 damage! SO HELPFUL!

Bryce lv 20 (wishblade, elixir, speedwing [d])

54 hp, 44 atk, 18 AS, 152 hit, 56 avo, 27 def, 18 res, 18 crit, 20 cev- Hoark, 10 crit with 70-80 displayed hit, along with a 2RKO. Stefan with the Vague Katti 6RKOs him. Even worse, is that Stefan's only got 10 displayed crit on him.

But of course, now for the swordmasters

1x Swordmaster lv 15 (runesword)

39 hp, 25 atk, 19 AS, 117 hit, 46 avo, 12 def, 8 res, 26 crit, 8 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 15 (killing edge)

39 hp, 26 atk, 23 AS, 130 hit, 55 avo, 13 def, 9 res, 56 crit, 9 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 17 (silver blade)

40 hp, 35 atk, 26 AS, 119 hit, 61 avo, 12 def, 9 res, 27 crit, 9 cev - 17-48 displayed crit. The bottom guy has Astra as a note, which is completely unnulliffiable by luck. Basically, if even one of those lands a crit, Stefan's gone. With that kind of rate on Stefan, it's a risk he just can't take. If the runesword guy hits, he 2RKOs even with Vague Katti. Hell, if he crits, he's dead. Lethe on the other hand, can actually survive a normal crit, with a severely reduced chance of getting crit'd. Gonna use a Steel Blade eh? Well you better hope he got an B with Mordy and an A with Soren, or else he's running a risk of actually missing these guys, especially captain psycho with the silver blade there. At max level, base hit supportless is 64 hit displayed. Even fully supported he can miss.

2x Tiger lv 15 (claw)

48 hp, 35 atk, 19 AS, 134 hit, 42 avo, 23 def, 10 res, 10 crit, 4 cev

1x Tiger lv 16 (claw)

50 hp, 34 atk, 20 AS, 136 hit, 44 avo, 22 def, 10 res, 10 crit, 4 cev - Hoark haoark hoark, they have crit on him too. One crit from them, Stefan's gone. Displayed hit? About 60 displayed.

By now, Lethe's got a lead of...and this is her at level 16 as a note.

3HP, 10-7 avoid, 3-4 Def, 2-3 Res, and 13 luck. What does an otherwise maxed out Stefan have to retort with? 15 damage lead with his strongest weapon. If Lethe's at max? With BB Muarim Jill, while Stef's got A Soren B Mordy

5 HP, 13 avoid lead, 15 luck, 5 Def, 3 Res. Stefan? 15 damage lead got reduced to 8. Sizeable offense lead, but when comparing to that durability lead along with the fact that A. Stefan's more than likely not getting Mordy, and B. Jill and Muarim are quite a bit better than just Soren, and C. That at times, Stefan can actually get insta-blicked.

Basically I will say this. Lethe keeps her leads, and as minor as you may think while Stefan has his offense leads. However, with how often his luck can screw him over, Stefan's too risky in comparison. Another thing is even supportless, Lethe's still got her leads over him, except now she closes the offense gap even more.

[-Cynthia-]

Just a note, Stefan got only 1 pt of Atk from a Soren support in my comparison. He could be getting another one from Mordecai, even if he doesn't get one at all he's still beating Lethe by 4-8 Atk.

[Tino]

I'm not going to counter all of that. However, I do want to mention a few things.

1. Good job ignoring transformation.

2. A 6-8 damage lead is quite significant, actually.

3. Ignoring Stefan's crit, are we?

You can go all "lol stefan can get critted" and all that, but now actually measure Lethe's defense lead against Stefan's quite sizeable offense lead and Stefan not having transformation issues.

[grandjackal]

Just a note, Stefan got only 1 pt of Atk from a Soren support in my comparison. He could be getting another one from Mordecai, even if he doesn't get one at all he's still beating Lethe by 4-8 Atk.

Does it even compare with how easily it is to get him killed on this map?

Speaking of offensive leads however, when we first meet him, his only weapon that could actually induce a damage lead is an iron blade, which leads to a 6 damage a round lead, which...isn't that much.

In the mean time, she'll be busy closing the gap along with being tougher to kill. He has to wait all the way till chapter chapter 20 to get a support with a noticeable boost (Mordy). By now, Lethe's already got a B with Jill and a C with Muarim, well towards an A with Jill if she chose to A with her, and gets her B with Muarim 2 chapters sooner than Stefan gets a B with Soren. Beforehand, Stefan might as well be supportless. So that's a nice amount of chapters where Lethe has a higher durability lead durability lead where Stefan has a minor offense lead that slips until he gets his next weapon the Steel Blade all the way in chapter 21. In that time, she will again start to close the gap until he gets silver blades, all the way in the chapter before endgame.

Speaking of silver blades, lets say he is 2RKOing everything with it. 8 battles, 1 breaks. Astra clicks in, happens sooner as it takes 5 Astra attacks where it would normally take 3. So if Stefan wants to keep that offense lead, silver blades better be the only thing in his inventory. Anything weaker, and their offense is not too different.

Sorry, didn't see Tino's post, but I'll measure it once I recheck on things, but I'd think able to take a critical where Stefan cannot would signify a huge lead.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Lethe will not go above Stefan at this rate. Nothing I've seen so far is going to convince me otherwise since for Lethe's side it's mostly just statistical comparisons hyping Lethe's durability lead and trying to sandbag Stefan's offense and taking little to no consideration to transformation issues.

Might be better to move on to a different character or come up with a way to show how such durability leads offset losing in offense and having transformation issues. I'm not seeing that.

[grandjackal]

Lethe will not go above Stefan at this rate. Nothing I've seen so far is going to convince me otherwise since for Lethe's side it's mostly just statistical comparisons hyping Lethe's durability lead and trying to sandbag Stefan's offense and taking little to no consideration to transformation issues.

Might be better to move on to a different character or come up with a way to show how such durability leads offset losing in offense and having transformation issues. I'm not seeing that.

How could I have sandbagged Stefan's offense lead when it's dependent on weapons he doesn't get until they're buyable, that being when they become buyable quite a few chapters after he joins?

Reason I don't take transformation issues into account, is because I'd rather have that than being insta-blicked at random due to bad luck. I can account for transformation, I can't control luck.

Why can't I ever win? x.x I don't even see how I'm hyping here.

[-Cynthia-]

Not to be a broken record here, but what about Gatrie? No one opposed Ranulf>Gatrie, almost no one opposed Gatrie>Haar, and Gatrie>Devdan pretty much just fell into oblivion.

[grandjackal]

Not to be a broken record here, but what about Gatrie? No one opposed Ranulf>Gatrie, almost no one opposed Gatrie>Haar, and Gatrie>Devdan pretty much just fell into oblivion.

Above Ranulf? Perhaps...

Above Haar and Dev though? Nuh-uh. Dev's a lot more low maintenance and has an actual pay-off to being used with actual support options (Fine, Tormod's a tad iffy, but it helps him suck less as we train him up). Doesn't have the earlygame, but Devdan doesn't exactly suck either.

Haar is basically him with speed that might actually matter, better WTC, supports he can keep up with...Basically it's earlygame vs lategame. I'd take Haar slipping in when he's doing as fine as anyone else>being good when you have a couple super-murderers who could potentially solo the map (Titania, Shinon).

PS-Didn't we all agree that Largo with this newfound evidence to be better than Tauroneo in the least?

Edited July 8, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

I'll just repost my arguments from before, skipping the Ranulf ones.

Needs less effort to be used? What does that mean?

Devdan's supports aren't really that much better than Gatrie's. Gatrie's Ilyana support is fairly good, they match Mov and Ilyana could use a Def boost. Devdan has Nephenee, who's an OK support, except Neph gets better bonuses from Brom or Callil (Def or Avo > Hit). Gatrie has an Astrid support which is somewhat decent if only for the fact that Astrid has trouble filling her B.

Gatrie has a Marcia support she doesn't really want, Devdan has a Tormod support he doesn't really need (same boosts from Reyson, better boosts from Callil). Shinon/Largo will both take them for lack of better options, I guess the Largo support is slightly better since Largo's more likely to be fielded, but neither one really has great support options. We've been over Haar already, providing 2 lategame durability boosts to super durable characters is not that great.

Stat time

20/1 Gatrie (B Ilyana)

43 HP 21 Str 10 AS 23 Def 8 Res

20/8 Devdan (B Nephenee)

39 HP 17 Str 14 AS 13 Def 11 Res

So Gatrie is winning durability and attack by a fair margin, and due to a lower level these leads will only increase over time. Devdan's AS lead looks big, but remember this is without the KW. Gatrie will gain more from the KW than Devdan does because Gatrie has more potential time with it and more levels to gain, so the AS gap will get lower. Gatrie can also switch over to the Brave Sword/Brave Lance later in the game and still beat Devdan in attack.

The real kicker is Gatrie's 3.5 chapters of availability earlygame. Apparently these chapters are weighed more than any other chapter in the game, and Gatrie is arguably your second best unit (best durability, ORKOes many enemies while 2RKOing everything else, has an enemy phase etc.) So even if Devdan does win their shared availability by a small margin, Gatrie wins.

Comparing 20/11 Gatrie to base level Haar, Gatrie has a 4 HP, 5 Atk, and 8 Def lead over Haar unsupported, with Haar only holding a 5 AS lead easily erased by some KW usage for Gatrie. Of course Haar has more Mov/Canto/flight, but it doesn't actually matter if Haar wins, because Gatrie has those 3.5 earlygame chapters, right? This really isn't that much different from Shinon vs. Lucia, except she has stat leads insead of deficits except for the Mov thing, though she has a range advantage.

Your last argument doesn't make much sense, our team is much better at Haar's jointime than in the earlygame chapters.

[Colonel M]

I'm not sure about Gatrie pulling out a Brave Sword though. Generals start with an E Rank in Swords, so he'll definitely need an Arms Scroll tossed onto him and stick to using Blades to get there.

He has the time to pull it off at least, but moreso a minor nitpick.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not sure about Gatrie pulling out a Brave Sword though. Generals start with an E Rank in Swords, so he'll definitely need an Arms Scroll tossed onto him and stick to using Blades to get there.

He has the time to pull it off at least, but moreso a minor nitpick.

No one but Mist really wants them anyway, and obviously Gatrie would prefer the Brave Lance in the first place. Indeed, it is a minor nitpick.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I've no objections to Gatrie above Haar and Ranulf. Moving him up.

[grandjackal]

I WAS gonna say something, but lemme guess. Anything I say isn't gonna stop it x.x

*sigh* not having the best of luck in Tellius x.x