FE4 Gen. 1 proposed Tier List

[Prince Levin]

It's pretty obvious who wins.

Lol your arguments show you don't know what you're talking about.

They aren't 'awesome' even in the prologue, but they are helpful. Noish is never 'awesome', Alec with his iron sword isn't killing the axe units easily...no, they have to work together to take out an axe user. Whilst Azel can take them out by himself. That is just the prologue, and they get less and less useful from there. If they were 'awesome' in prologue-chapter 2 and 'cool' in chapters 3 and 4 everyone would be using them since you can field everyone. Funny how most people don't even bother with them. I wonder why?

Also, you want Dew in mid-tier when he has crap for durability? So he can steal money. But remember: 1 RN system? Yeah.

*shakes head* Lol, distributing money in a game where you can't trade is actually useful if you didn't know.

[_____]

Lol your arguments show you don't know what you're talking about.

They aren't 'awesome' even in the prologue, but they are helpful. Noish is never 'awesome', Alec with his iron sword isn't killing the axe units easily...no, they have to work together to take out an axe user. Whilst Azel can take them out by himself. That is just the prologue, and they get less and less useful from there. If they were 'awesome' in prologue-chapter 2 and 'cool' in chapters 3 and 4 everyone would be using them since you can field everyone. Funny how most people don't even bother with them. I wonder why?

Cool story, bro.

The fact that you compare them to Azel in the prolouge where they're MUCH more useful than him (and say Azel wins), and then have the balls to say that I don't know what I'm talking about is absurd.

Anyone want to just ignore everything Prince Levin says from now on?

*shakes head* Lol, distributing money in a game where you can't trade is actually useful if you didn't know.

In a game where everyone has full money, you mean.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Ninji

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Azel will kill about 10 units at most from Prologue to the end of Ch.2 unless one deliberately slows down to accomodate him. He kills 1 on the player's turn and doesn't do diddly squat on the enemy's turn due to his bad durability.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Cephas

[Dat Nick]

Alec with his iron sword isn't killing the axe units easily...no, they have to work together to take out an axe user.

As does everybody not named Sigurd and Azel, and Azel only applies when he's in range, a semi rare scenario. Your point, again?

Oh yes, and did you totally ignore my point on Alec and the steel sword or what?

That is just the prologue, and they get less and less useful from there.

less? Again, you're totally ignorant to the fact that Alec getting a steel sword does not favoritism make.

What's giving you the idea that their offense blows, the fact that the guys in high/top are one rounding everything and they're not? Guess what, that's why they're not in high or top tier. That's horrible justification for them being in bottom, as that's where you put absolute rubbish combat failures like...the people in bottom. 2RKOing with solid durability and epic move =/= bottom tier

Edited June 30, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Just call me AL]

Even though neither of them are worth using, it really doesn't mean that they're useless. Do they have the potential to go Pallie? Yes. Are they gonna reach Pallie status? Probably not. But the names Alec and Noce and the word "useless" don't belong in the same sentence. And it's pretty absurd to think that Alec's and Noce's offensive game is crud. Sure Noce doesn't have pursuit, but his offensive game is decent enough to give him some purpose. Sure Alec's strength isn't high, but that's what steel swords are for. They're basically doing what Azel can, but with greater efficiency due to being mounted, and having decently high durability. Azel is cool and all, but he's done for if he isn't protected, and his movement really doesn't help him get into the action. You're saying Noce and Alec are losing steam after the prologue is finished. Don't you think that Azel is losing even more steam than Alec and Noce around the same time?

@anyone who's confused when I use the name "Noce": it's what I call Noish.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Little Al

[dondon151]

Both of them are going to reach paladin if they're being used seriously.

[Robert]

There are three main types of Brigands in the prologue:

Common ones: 36 hp, 5 def, 0 res.

Azel: ORKO

Alec: 2RKO

Noish: 3RKO

Lex: 2RKO

These are the most common. Azel can 1 round them, but there are only 2 or so near his range.

Alec deals 20 damage to them, noish 16. However, Noish is the only one of the two that has a chance to ORKO (7%lol) It doesn't really matter that Alec can 2RKO, because someone else will finish the brigand anyway.

Hand-Axe

These are the strongest. Not only do they have handax, but they have more hp.

45 Hp, 5 def, 0 res.

No one can ORKO them.

Alec 3RKO's them

Noish 3RKo's them

Azel 2RKO's them, but they kill him on second shot.

The third is the first with more hp.

[Robert]

I am not saying who I think is better, but posted that so no one says random empty bluster like "alec can kill everyone in the prologue" or "azel cannot kill anyone in the prologue" ect.

[_____]

I am not saying who I think is better, but posted that so no one says random empty bluster like "alec can kill everyone in the prologue" or "azel cannot kill anyone in the prologue" ect.

Actually, via those two statements, you did just say who you think is better.

We have constantly said that Alec will 2 round nearly everything and that Azel has pretty damn good offense in the prolouge for the 3 enemies he actually faces. The main points against Azel and for Alec are that Alec has a sexy horse, has decent offense (2 rounding stuff is pretty awesome. Not as great as Sigurd, Finn, and Lex one rounding everything, but they're top tier already), and he's not dying.

For example, those weak axe users you mentioned have 26 hit on Alec and 3 round him, while the strong ones have 12 hit on him and still 3 round him.

The same weak axe users have 30 hit on Noish and 3 round him and the hand axe ones have 16 hit on him and 4 round him.

Finally, the weak axe users have 49 hit on Azel and 2 round him, while the strong ones have 35 hit on him and 2 round him, but they have hand axes, so no 1~2 range for you.

That's a blowout.

[Robert]

Actually, via those two statements, you did just say who you think is better.

I am neutral, I just wanted to point out who is killing what.

Azel can ORKO the first type I listed, but only if he is in range (the two that he starts near), and I said that he can 2RKO bandits that no one except sigurd can 2RKO, but they kill him in two shots.

Hit chance goes to alec big time.

[Mekkah]

in fact, apart from Tiltyu in bottom, I don't believe I changed a single thing

my own opinions keep changing too :P

Some more thoughts: negative utility is pretty hard in this game, due to the fact that there's no unit slots, and to a lesser extent, the seperate gold pools. The only negative utility would be being an outright detriment such as requiring shielding, healing, good resources, etc.

Let me theorize some further. Here's a ranking of everyone's availability (not in any real order within a rank)

6 maps: Sigurd, Ardan, Alec, Noish, Lex, Azel

5.5 maps: Midir

5 maps: Aideen, Dew

4.5 maps: Ayra, Jamka

4 maps: Holyn, Lachesis, Levin, Sylvia

3.5 maps: Beowulf, Fury

3 maps

2.5 maps: Claude, Tiltyu, Brigid

Some are given the benefit of the doubt - Ayra is clearly more available than Jamka in Ch1, Fury might not get to do anything on the map in Ch2, etc.

And then the next important thing imo, mobility:

8-9 move: Cuan, Sigurd, Alec, Noish, Lex, Beowulf, Lachesis(promo), Azel (promo)

6 mov: Brigid, Levin, Holyn, Ayra, Jamka, Lachesis(unpromo)

5 mov: Ardan, Aideen, Azel(unpromo), Tiltyu

The only thing left to consider is combat. imo people with both high availability and mobility should always at least be in Mid.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Mekkah

[Renall]

Lex is top tier.

Ayra and Holyn need to be right freakin' next to each other. Wherever that happens to be (probably down).

Alec and Noish are fine. It can be quite hard to ORKO anything in this game because of high enemy HP. And they're mounted. They aren't high ranked or anything, but certainly better than Bottom for availability, movement, and swords + lances (for all the use lances are).

[Mekkah]

Ayra and Holyn need to be right freakin' next to each other. Wherever that happens to be (probably down).

Not necessarily. Their difference in durability is quite huge, their mobility is the same and their availability not far apart. I can see Holyn > Jamka > Ayra, for instance, since Holyn is durable enough to overcome Jamka's not taking a counter, but Ayra isn't. Just an example.

[Yojinbo]

Ayra is still better than Jamka. Taking no counters is ok but when you rape enemy phase like ayra does it's not fair to her to rank Jamka above her. She can also use Thunder Sword from ch3 onward to hit 1~2 range

[Mekkah]

"When you rape enemies like Ayra does" evades the problem that Jamka rapes enemies just as well. Neither ORKO reliably against things like Armors, they're more reliant on skills. Jamka has more of those prepromotion. Sure, Ayra can do more on enemy phase, but only so much as her durability allows her, which can be as little as one enemy against the stronger ones, maybe more like 2-3 against weaker ones. Ayra's avo cannot be relied upon.

Also, there's a Killer Bow right away, a Silver Bow from Ch3 iirc, and a Hero's Bow from Ch4, shared only between Jamka, Midir and Lachesis. Midir might have been dropped at this point, and Lachesis doesn't need anything but Steel/Silver to kill Pegs and does about anything in with a Hero Axe. There's slightly more swords for Ayra. 2 Silver Swords, a Hero Sword, you could count Silver Blade I guess, and then there's Clipper/Cutter but they're enemy-specific. But there's about three times as many sword users in existence.

Thunder Sword/Wind Sword have the same competition, but they also suck at range, and they're only as powerful as Iron Blades up close.

[Dat Nick]

Speaking of Midir, I don't agree with Jamka and Midir being a tier apart, nor do I agree that Jamka>Midir, to begin with. Is the statistical difference really that big enough to offset Midir's mount and hit and run?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Not necessarily. Their difference in durability is quite huge, their mobility is the same and their availability not far apart. I can see Holyn > Jamka > Ayra, for instance, since Holyn is durable enough to overcome Jamka's not taking a counter, but Ayra isn't. Just an example.

I'd say her C1 availability doesn't even contribute anything. Assuming we're playing efficiently, the only thing Ayra can accomplish with the availability in C1 is probably just the Arena since your mounted units and the others are quite capable of nuking Gandolf's mooks so that'd leave Ayra and Sigurd behind... Sigurd will easily catch up to the others due to his MOV and you'll already be working on fighting Jamka's band so... how likely is it that Ayra will even be able to attack 1 enemy?

Thus... Ayra in chapter 2 is basically:

Level 6.86 (if she beats the General) or lvl 6.30 (if she doesn't)

33.4 HP

11.6 STR

17.2 SKL

17.6 SPD

7.4 DEF

Now compare their averages:

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=holyn&game=4

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=aira&game=4

Holyn has a +40% HP rate and +10% DEF on her. Without the skills, Holyn's clearly better offensively. With the skills, they're both 1 rounding so Holyn wins both Attack and Defense.

Point being, I agree with Mekkah, there's a good chance that they're not right next to each other.

[Renall]

I actually ran numbers on this for the (now eaten) debate. Ayra's durability is not so dissimilar to Holyn's (nor is his Evade so different) in most cases. There are a few places where he survives an additional round, but often his durability is the same or one hit better at best. Make of that what you will.

Note that I was defending Holyn, so I was actually expecting a much bigger curbstomp on concrete durability than the numbers wound up giving me.

[Dat Nick]

Speaking of the Midir>Jamka thing I mentioned earlier, would it really be considered a lot of favoritism if we tossed Midir the Spd ring? I mean, name me one other person who is actually going to benefit from it. Everybody who has crap AS doesn't have pursuit and everybody with pursuit has good AS and so on and so forth. It can hold him off until he can get his hands on Jamka's Killer Bow, anyway [And I don't think that's a lot of favoritism either as Jamka has plenty of base AS to use iron or steel just fine]

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Finn can use the Speed Ring to double the archers with certainty. Azel doesn't count because he won't be seeing much action.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Cephas

[Dat Nick]

Fin, okay, but once C4 rolls around then Midir has no excuse not to have it, if for whatever reason he doesnt have the hero or silver or killer or something.

This assuming his AS would still be an issue...

Edited June 30, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Paperblade]

Fin, okay, but once C4 rolls around then Midir has no excuse not to have it, if for whatever reason he doesnt have the hero or silver or killer or something.

This assuming his AS would still be an issue...

Midir still has doubling issues.

Alec would like it since he has similar Speed to Midir.

Also, enemy stats for the whole game. There might be calculations off to the side, so just ignore those >_>

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ajjjbh

[Dat Nick]

Alec would like it since he has similar Speed to Midir.

Except Alec has swords which weigh 3 to Bows's 8. That factored in, it's not similar at all.

Edited July 1, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Paperblade]

Except Alec has swords which weigh 3 to Bows's 8. That factored in, it's not similar at all.

Killer Bow has 3 weight, and with the Hero Bow Midir one rounds most generic enemies he doesn't double anyway if he hits... I believe he only fails vs. that 1 Mage Fighter and Lamia's Bowfighters, but since they have 26 atk and 16% crit, Midir is left with liek 1HP if they crit, so it's probably in our best interest to have him attack any other enemy, and Alec can't one round the Bow Fighters without a SpdRing + Hero Lance, or the Mage Fighter without the Hero Sword and the Spd Ring or a lucky +1 Spd level up.

The last chapter is a bunch of slow Axe/Lances using enemies (I'm serious, there's 3 enemies on the entire map that use Swords, and one of them is a boss... FFS, we tie that just with named NPCs thanks to Byron, Ethlin, and Aida) that they could probably double at base level plus 2 enemies with 12AS and 4 with 10 (2 Snipers and the 2 Sleep Priests at Phinora)

Midir only needs to be like Level 22 on average to double the 10AS Snipers with the Hero Bow (although they're with Leptor, so it might be in our best interest to have him attack someone who doesn't counter him for 20 damage). There's also a High Priest with 14AS, but he has Prayer so someone who falls just a bit short (Midir has like 18-19Str so 32-33 atk with the Killer/Hero Bow means he either kills cleanly or leaves it with 1HP... and then lolprayer even if a third attack) should probably not bother. He does need the Speed Ring for Hero Bowing the 2 Forrests, but it's not like Alec wants it since he's a crappy father so we probably won't have anything useful like a Hero weapon or Speed ring on him.

Alec with the Hero Lance has a bit more doubling issues (hai Ch. 4 Peg Knights) that the Speed Ring can solve.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Paperblade

[HolsetyExcaliburRexcalibur]

Jamka and Holyn go slightly higher because Jamka 4-Hits almost every time, and Holyn has Luna, which activates so freaking often.