FE4 2nd Gen Tier List

[Robert]

How is Altenna> Leaf? Leaf can be promoted by chapter 8, much before Altenna.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

How is Altenna> Leaf? Leaf can be promoted by chapter 8, much before Altenna.

Through much favoritism.

[Robert]

Through much favoritism.

Two arena's, squads of enemies in his direction, and 1-3 villagers that he is basically entitled to.

[Dat Nick]

even if he is promoted

Tell me where exactly you see Leaf swinging around Gaiborg.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Two arena's, squads of enemies in his direction, and 1-3 villagers that he is basically entitled to.

Even if you assume that he's got Elite ring and manages to finish BOTH the C7 and C8 arena WITH elite, Promotion ain't happening until MAYBE 2/3 in C8 (which would require return ring/staff and then Warp if he wants to see some action). Even with favoritism, it's most likely happening at C9.

Also, entitled to the villages? Bullshit. Any mounted unit would want the Gold from those villages if they make it there because who doesn't Elite?

Edited June 30, 2009 by Sirius

[Robert]

No one else really needs that much favortism. And I meant villageRs. The ones that give you EXP.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

No one else really needs that much favortism. And I meant villageRs. The ones that give you EXP.

So you're saying Leaf NEEDs favoritism? This works against you.

[Dat Nick]

Hey, nobody's gonna complain about a free level up. Nanna might want one or two of them herself.

[Just call me AL]

LexXAyra kids in high, HolynxAyra kids in High below LexXAyra.

This might be just a thought, but what about JamukaXAyra's kids? It turns Sakasher into an SM with less speed and skill, and gives Lakche a taste of Adept before promotion. This may be my opinion but I'd put it above HolynXAyra, but below LexXAyra.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Little Al

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This might be just a thought, but what about JamukaXAyra's kids? It turns Sakasher into an SM with less speed. This may be my opinion but I'd put it above HolynXAyra, but below LexXAyra.

I agree with this. The difference between the 2 would be...

-20% HP growth.

+20% STR growth and +1 STR

-1 DEF

Continue > Critical. Base Holyn!Skasha would have a 14% chance of activating either Critical or Astra while Base Jamka Skasha would have 27% chance of activating continue and 12% for Astra. When continue activates, that's chance shot at Astra activating and it can often mean avoiding a counter-attack.

[Just call me AL]

I agree with this. The difference between the 2 would be...

-20% HP growth.

+20% STR growth and +1 STR

-1 DEF

Continue > Critical. Base Holyn!Skasha would have a 14% chance of activating either Critical or Astra while Base Jamka Skasha would have 27% chance of activating continue and 12% for Astra. When continue activates, that's chance shot at Astra activating and it can often mean avoiding a counter-attack.

Last time I checked, Luna was Holyn's skill, not Critical. Other than that, I see what you're saying.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Little Al

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Last time I checked, Luna was Holyn's skill, not Critical. Other than that, I see what you're saying.

Right, my bad. That only makes the comparison more Jamka!Skasha's favor since Critical's better than Moonlight.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Sirius

[Yojinbo]

Skasaha inherits Holyns Swords though, which is certainly an advantage over Jamka, who passes down no weapons at all...I also thought Holyn!Skasaha can use the Balmung ...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Skasaha inherits Holyns Swords though, which is certainly an advantage over Jamka, who passes down no weapons at all...I also thought Holyn!Skasaha can use the Balmung ...

A minor detail that is remedied in the next chapter.

@Bold: Not through normal means.

[Renall]

Shanan would be around that black square near the dark mages while Arthur would be around the bigger black square so it's likely that he'll see action with the Melgen enemies while Shanan would mostly be stuck to fighting Darna and/or Blume's forces, Arthur can do this as well.

You do remember that there aren't any fights until you conquer the castle where Shanan starts near because the neutral border guards won't let you through to the area where Ishtor's castle is, and then you have to fight that, and then Aless's group attacks, right? Arthur is by no means seeing "more combat" considering the enemies before that point are a paltry handful of Dark Mages where Shanan is the only threat to the Dark Mages around the castle, and very capable of killing the boss as well before he can switch to his long-range tome. Then he has time to catch back up while Celice is hustling his slow lordly ass up the mountain.

Then once Arthur promotes, guess who wins. Superior MOV and 1-2 range obviously.

Then once Arthur promotes, his SPD is capped at a piddly 22 and he has a 67% chance of doubling at all without the Pursuit Ring. That sure kicks Shanan's a- oh wait, Shanan starts with more SPD than Arthur can ever have, Balmung also gives +20 SPD, and it actually weighs less, giving him a 100% chance of doubling anything in the game that he attacks, a 67% chance of attacking twice each of those attacks, and a 1-in-3 or higher (around 33-35% by lv15) chance of hitting five times on each of those attacks.

Also Shanan is so badass the mage sisters in ch8 will attack him in melee. Because they know they have no prayer against him so they throw themselves at his ultimate godlike offense.

And the second generation has a lot of instances where mobility is not as useful, such as ch8-10 where there are some huge enemy clumps you get to fight. Shanan is admittedly inferior to Arthur for taking out Ishtar if you knock Arthur down to Wrath range first though.

Don't get me wrong. Levin!Arthur is godlike. But Shanan is God.

[Just call me AL]

Skasaha inherits Holyns Swords though, which is certainly an advantage over Jamka, who passes down no weapons at all...I also thought Holyn!Skasaha can use the Balmung ...

With that logic, then HolynXAyra has an edge over LexXAyra, which is hailed as Ayra's best pairing. (I.E. Lex faces the same problems Jamuka does when either of them are paired with Ayra. The only difference is that Jamuka can leave his weapons to Bridget, and/or a Midir that is paired with Eden.) And like Sirius pointed out, Holyn!Sakasher can use the Balmunk, but not through normal means. What you're talking about requires Claude!Sety or Claude!Corple as well. The only others who can pass down swords to Sakasher are Noce, Alec, Arden (lol), and Beowulf. Azel's a special case if he's promoted, but the young lordling of Velthomer wants girls like Tiltyu or Lachesis. And if he DOES get Lachesis, the only way he's passing weapons to Delmud is after promotion. Edited June 30, 2009 by Little Al

[General Spoon]

I updated the list, and it now has all subs and fixed units on it.

Top

Arthur!Levin

Shanan

Aless

Sety!Levin

High

Celice

Laylea

Altenna

Leaf

Amid

Upper Middle

Oifaye

Hawk

Yuria

All Favals go around here?

Middle

Dimna

Tristan

Asaello

Janne

Fin

Lower Middle

Mana

Johan

Johalva

Radney

Roddlevan

Low

Sharlow

Linda

Pit of suckstoobadlytocare

Femina

Daisy

Hannibal

I'm sure there are problems.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Miror B.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You do remember that there aren't any fights until you conquer the castle where Shanan starts near because the neutral border guards won't let you through to the area where Ishtor's castle is, and then you have to fight that, and then Aless's group attacks, right? Arthur is by no means seeing "more combat" considering the enemies before that point are a paltry handful of Dark Mages where Shanan is the only threat to the Dark Mages around the castle, and very capable of killing the boss as well before he can switch to his long-range tome. Then he has time to catch back up while Celice is hustling his slow lordly ass up the mountain.

That was taken into account when I posted that (though I did make a slight error but you didn't even point it out). YOU are neglecting the fact that he still has to cross a bit of desert terrain after the shrine gets conquered and that your team will be moving on to Melgen unless you're waiting for Shanan to be positioned right next to your team which is inefficient as Melgen's mooks can be dealt with without him.

Also, who the fuck said anything about the dark mages near the shrine getting killed by any1 not named Shanan or possibly Fee and Patty? Not to mention that Arthur losing in the Arena (Lol Fire tome) means having Wrath ALWAYS on the player phase, thus a 1HKO against those Dark Mages Shanan isn't fighting. Shanan the only time Shanan is close to your team is when Celice has captured Melgen and guess what, your units are perfectly capable of killing them before Celice gets near the castle. Thus, Shanan is only fighting Darna and/or Blume's troops as well as the obvious Dark Mages near the Yied Shrine which no1 needs to point out because it's fucking obvious.

Then once Arthur promotes, his SPD is capped at a piddly 22 and he has a 67% chance of doubling at all without the Pursuit Ring. That sure kicks Shanan's a- oh wait, Shanan starts with more SPD than Arthur can ever have, Balmung also gives +20 SPD, and it actually weighs less, giving him a 100% chance of doubling anything in the game that he attacks, a 67% chance of attacking twice each of those attacks, and a 1-in-3 or higher (around 33-35% by lv15) chance of hitting five times on each of those attacks.

1. 67% chance to double is still decent. Not to mention this doesn't show how Shanan makes up for the fact that Arthur's way ahead using Holsety and dodging with about as much avoid as he has (due to luck which could actually result in more avoid on Arthur than on Shanan for quite a while). Unless Shanan is blessed, there probably is no chance of Shanan having a 10 AVO lead on promoted Arthur, not to mention that Shanan' seeing WTD for a decent amount. There's also his Crit chance with Berserk SKL (and the bonus from the 50+ kill Holsety which is damn likely) and if he fails to kill an enemy it isn't much of a loss really. If you must have an enemy 1 rounded... there's Wrath use.

2. Who the fuck gives a damn if he can attack 5 times when 2 hits is quite sufficient as it is (and when it isn't, 1HKOs by critical are very likely due to how many kills Holsety will have).

3. You go on about Arthur only has a 67% chance of doubling but how about the fact Shanan has 0% chance of hitting a 2 ranged enemy with his Balmunk AND is being left behind just like all the other mounted units? Superior stats don't mean much when the comparison is very close and actually sees more action.

And the second generation has a lot of instances where mobility is not as useful, such as ch8-10 where there are some huge enemy clumps you get to fight. Shanan is admittedly inferior to Arthur for taking out Ishtar if you knock Arthur down to Wrath range first though.

What? Also, the killing Ishtar thing wasn't even an advantage I would care to point out but thanks anyway.

You can fix Arthur's killing issues with intended Wrath and Pursuit ring (which if you've got good pairings, only Patty and Tinny are likely to want it) While Shanan's way to fix his MOV is the Leg ring and holy hell do many people want this. Not to mention that giving it your dancer is probably the most efficient use of this as it grants BOTH the mounted and unmounted units more MOV.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

I thought Linda was considered one of the less sucky subs?

[General Spoon]

I thought Linda was considered one of the less sucky subs?

I don't have any experience with the subs, so if something's out of place, that'd be why

[_____]

Asaello over Johan, Johalva, Radney, Roddlevan, and Fin? What the fuck?

[Swordsalmon]

Radnei and Roddleban>Johalva. Getting an additional 2/3 more chapter utility, Radnei gets stat bonuses some stat bonuses, and then Pursuit and Swords. ^_^

[Rei Rei]

Shouldn't at least one of the Favals be higher than Hawk or something?

[Dat Nick]

I'd imagine shitty ones like, say, Claude!Faval would get sent down to low, too.

[Renall]

Linda is fine. She has Elite and Minor Tordo blood, which is more than most replacements can say. Leveling up is one of Tinny's biggest problems, so her replacement coming with a way to gain lots more experience is nice.

On Shanan vs. Arthur... man, you really won't give this up. Arthur has no right to the Pursuit Ring. In fact in instances where manufactured Wrath + Holsety is safe (which isn't always), it would be pretty stupid to do it. But Shanan never even needs to consider the Pursuit Ring at all. Shanan is also a prepromote, so his unmounted status (and bear in mind Arthur's unmounted too for quite a long time, certainly not going to promote before Shanan is around) is balanced by the fact that he's got better bases and a higher level. He's good out of the box, he doesn't need massive amounts of experience funneled his way to reach his potential, and although he does get Balmung-dependent by the final chapter, I don't see why you wouldn't be using the hell out of your holy weapons at that point. Early on, Shanan's overkill offense is so obscene that he can easily kill with weaker weapons and not worry about survival too much (he still has lots of SPD and some DEF, something Arthur doesn't). So he's able to use his maxed-out gold for whatever he needs. And he doesn't need much... so he could probably pass it to his lover. And what with Patty being predestined, Shanan could become a gold funnel for everybody else. He's got lots of uses even when he's not getting to the party as fast as everybody else.

On Holyn vs. Lex for Ayra's kids... don't underrate Elite here. Foot units are getting to the battle later in some cases. Elite helps this out a good deal. Skasaha not getting swords from his dad is rectified rather quickly by having Lakche sell him one of hers as soon as he can afford it. Not as simple as just getting it from Holyn, but still. Also, I would consider the Balmung glitch totally invalid, as it's an exploit of a game oversight.