Fire Emblem Tier List

[Raven]

I would say only Nasir is better, since Athos has better relative availability than they do, he bascially ties with Lehran is usefulness and Gareth is meh.

Athos is pretty handy in the Final. He can use staves for one, and if he's attacking he can use Luna and do more damage than almost anyone against Kenneth/Ursula while taking only a weak counter in return and is one of the only few able to hurt the dragon, plus he's forced.

I still think a Middle tier is a good idea. Upper Mid and Lower Mid are rather crowded (11 and 13), and you run into issues of decent units like Isadora being in the same tier as nubs like Wallace.

Everything you said about Athos is true, but every point you gave to him can also apply to everyone else who are capable of using Staves (Priscilla, Serra, Canas, Pent, etc.) and Elder tomes (Canas). Athos takes nothing from the team, but he doesn't give much compared to what is already available, either.

There is a certain need for a tier between Upper and Lower Mid. I'll implement one and split the bottom of Higher and the top of Lower into it accordingly, when I can be bothered (It's 5am). Unless anyone has reasonable objections against this, then it will be done.

[Rodykitty]

The reason Colonel M suggested Athos for mid is just that, the "most neutral". He only has one chapter of benefit, but he is of no liability whatsoever, with no cost to use at all. No EXP needed, no weapon level training, no favortism required, he's simply given to you for that one chapter. This is, of course offset by having only one chapter of use, but he can make a good divider for those that either have less utility or are more of a negative than a positive.

[Raven]

The reason Colonel M suggested Athos for mid is just that, the "most neutral". He only has one chapter of benefit, but he is of no liability whatsoever, with no cost to use at all. No EXP needed, no weapon level training, no favortism required, he's simply given to you for that one chapter. This is, of course offset by having only one chapter of use, but he can make a good divider for those that either have less utility or are more of a negative than a positive.

None of this makes up for his absense in previous chapters. He exists in the one chapter he isn't even needed in because every other unit is capable of holding their own, and have been around for longer than Athos. His availability is his downfall here, despite how great he is as a unit. He is only a ripple on the ocean of other units. If the completion of the Final chapter depended on Athos's participation, then I'd agree and have him higher on the list - but the fact is that the Final chapter - the only chapter Athos participates in - is easily doable, even without him.

[Rodykitty]

None of this makes up for his absense in previous chapters. He exists in the one chapter he isn't even needed in because every other unit is capable of holding their own, and have been around for longer than Athos. His availability is his downfall here, despite how great he is as a unit. He is only a ripple on the ocean of other units. If the completion of the Final chapter depended on Athos's participation, then I'd agree and have him higher on the list - but the fact is that the Final chapter - the only chapter Athos participates in - is easily doable, even without him.

This argument would hold water if I was actually suggesting Athos go above units that have more utility than him.

But no, I am talking about him being near neutral. He doesn't benefit much, but he doesn't harm your team either. He can certainly be above characters that are more of a liability than a benefit, even if it means that he isn't above a lot of characters.

[Florete]

Athos can at least go above Vaida, for instance. She comes and she's kind of okay for the 2 or 3 maps she has before Athos shows, and then he creams her.

In fact, Vaida is too high as it is. She suffers from low availability as well, only reasonable having 2 more maps over Athos (since she does like nothing in Cog of Destiny, isn't going to the Berserker or The Value of Life, so she only has Sands of Time and Victory or Death). She's mediocre when she's around, as well. I'd say her and Athos could switch places.

[-Cynthia-]

Athos can at least go above Vaida, for instance. She comes and she's kind of okay for the 2 or 3 maps she has before Athos shows, and then he creams her.

In fact, Vaida is too high as it is. She suffers from low availability as well, only reasonable having 2 more maps over Athos (since she does like nothing in Cog of Destiny, isn't going to the Berserker or The Value of Life, so she only has Sands of Time and Victory or Death). She's mediocre when she's around, as well. I'd say her and Athos could switch places.

I agree with Athos> Vaida, but not Vaida in Low. She's actually decent at jointime, unlike people like Heath who has serious issues offensively and defensively. A trained Heath is better than vaida, but there probably shouldn't be a tier gap between the two.

[Raven]

I've just updated it. I believe Athos's current positioning is reasonable.

[Florete]

Athos can at least go above Vaida, for instance. She comes and she's kind of okay for the 2 or 3 maps she has before Athos shows, and then he creams her.

In fact, Vaida is too high as it is. She suffers from low availability as well, only reasonable having 2 more maps over Athos (since she does like nothing in Cog of Destiny, isn't going to the Berserker or The Value of Life, so she only has Sands of Time and Victory or Death). She's mediocre when she's around, as well. I'd say her and Athos could switch places.

I agree with Athos> Vaida, but not Vaida in Low. She's actually decent at jointime, unlike people like Heath who has serious issues offensively and defensively. A trained Heath is better than vaida, but there probably shouldn't be a tier gap between the two.

Athos was already out of Low when I made the suggestion...

[CATS]

None of this makes up for his absense in previous chapters. He exists in the one chapter he isn't even needed in because every other unit is capable of holding their own, and have been around for longer than Athos. His availability is his downfall here, despite how great he is as a unit. He is only a ripple on the ocean of other units.

No one else has 30 Mag (i.e. his Fortify range covers more than half the map) and Athos can use Luna (and the only other person who can use this weapon doesn't have a S Rank in Staves and 30 Mag), giving him good offense by default against everything in the chapter. Athos is definitely useful during Light, and he doesn't deserve to be below units who shouldn't even be trained such as Rath and Heath, though I'm guessing Lower Mid isn't ordered yet anyway.

If the completion of the Final chapter depended on Athos's participation, then I'd agree and have him higher on the list - but the fact is that the Final chapter - the only chapter Athos participates in - is easily doable, even without him.[/color]

The entire game is doable without any one specific character, except technically Hector. You don't need Marcus or Raven. The fact that you can beat it without them doesn't mean anything.

[Rodykitty]

Athos' position is pretty good right now. Any characters that are negative utility can fall below him (or rather maybe below someone like Renault who is another pretty neutral character) rather than him rising.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Rody

[dondon151]

I can't see Athos any higher than lower mid, and if Raven makes a mid tier, I wouldn't put Athos there. He's definitely better than Vaida, who's actually not that bad when she's around, but her performance isn't exactly stellar either.

I personally think Heath is underrated. He seriously needs like 2-4 levels to double most enemies, he has flying utility and he joins right before the chapter where fliers are in highest demand, and 32 HP/11 def at base is pretty damn good - it's certainly better than Isadora's 28 HP/8 def and it's probably like 2-3 HP under what Marcus would have by then.

Also I'm not too keen on bringing this up again but I don't want to assume that all tier lists are ranked based on the system of mid tier = neutral utility because obviously I (and a few others) don't agree with it.

Edited August 13, 2009 by dondon151

[Rodykitty]

Also I'm not too keen on bringing this up again but I don't want to assume that all tier lists are ranked based on the system of mid tier = neutral utility because obviously I (and a few others) don't agree with it.

Once again, this idea is really my fault because I decided to use Nagi/Gotoh as a dividing line, but that shouldn't necessarily mean mid tier = neutral utility, since Nagi/Gotoh/Athos/whoever could be lower than mid.

[Mekkah]

The thing with Athos is that in this game, the vast majority of characters can easily provide "positive" utility throughout a large part of the game, or at least "hold their own" as it's called (I say it in quotations because of the whole "you're not in the top 10 and i only have 10 unit slots so you're negative utility" argument) Looking at some "bad" characters:

- Bartre's worst period is when he's forced. He only needs about +2 or +3 spd to stop getting doubled by most things, and the things that do double him usually don't have enough atk for him to care after a while. And after FFO, he has access to Swordreaver, so he no longer gives a damn about even Heroes (I haven't ran the numbers, but essentially -4 damage if he's doubled, and essentially +45 avo over if he used an axe), plus he has all those other misc weapons.

- Wil never becomes an enemy phase killing machine, but his player phase is fairly acceptable. After Dragon's Gate you get a free Brave and a free Killer Bow, plus you can buy as many Killer Bows as you want. From there he can just lounge using Brave Bow whenever something is too fast for him, securing just a player phase kill.

- Rath can use the bownopoly as well to augment his offense issues, and his horse also allows him to do things that require no stats to be helpful, like ferrying.

- I've already shown a few pages back Karla is capable of damaging things in VoD with just a Killing Edge/Wo Dao.

- Renault has staff utility.

- Isadora isn't even bad due to the insane flexibility her class and high speed offers.

[CATS]

In my eyes, there's no such thing as being "just good enough." If there's lots of units who can go in Rath's spot and do better than him, then he shouldn't be used, period. Athos meanwhile is definitely helpful for at least one chapter.

[-Cynthia-]

On your topic of Wil, I think he's a little underrated. I mean he certainly isn't good persay, but simply lacking an enemy phase doesn't put him under the likes of Wallace. His player phase is unspectacular, but not horrible due to bow monopoly, whereas Wallace is pretty trash on both phases and it's not like Wil has no durability.

Same goes for Louise that went for Wil, she doesn't even have to go through pre promotion issues, and auto A Pent helps them both a lot.

@RedFox Ninja'd, I replaced Nino with Wallace :P

Edited August 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

Wil is already above Nino.

EDIT: Yeah....

Edited August 14, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[_____]

He's already above Nino.

Edit: Whatever.

Speaking of Nino, I'm not really convinced on the whole Karla vs. Nino thing.

It's not like we're penalizing Legault because there's a chance he won't be recruited or anything like that. This whole "Bartre is so hard to train!" stuff isn't entirely true, as Bartre's actually pretty good after the early-earlygame and, even if it was a negative for Karla, shouldn't be counted for much. Karel blocks out a high tier unit with his recruitment. Obviously Bottom Tier!

She needs 5 levels and a Guiding Ring to do something productive, which is to spam Heal.

I'd be able to go more in-depth if I knew about enemy stats, but considering how Nino has 12 ATK and 19 HP/4 Defense at base, things don't look too great for her.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Ninji

[CATS]

The Bartre training may not be hard, but that's irrelevant. The question is, is gaining Karla worth it? The only chapter she can even think about being fielded for is VoD. Will she contribute enough there that she more than makes up for needing to train Bartre earlier in the game? I rather doubt it. Let's see, let's assume we're using these units:

Marcus

Raven

Ninian

Guy

Eliwood

Low1n

Sain

Kent

Hector obv

Serra

Priscilla

Osw1n

Maybe that's a bit too many. In any case, it leaves room for only 3 more (VoD has 15 spots). Harken, Pent, Vaida. Even going further down the list......Hawkeye, Louise, Geitz, Jaffar. Is Karla much better than any of them?

[_____]

Using that logic, this comparison is irrelevant, as neither Karla nor Nino will be fielded as it is far too inefficient to field them compared to Top and High tier characters.

When comparing two characters, it doesn't make sense to not assume they are both used.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Ninji

[dondon151]

In my eyes, there's no such thing as being "just good enough." If there's lots of units who can go in Rath's spot and do better than him, then he shouldn't be used, period. Athos meanwhile is definitely helpful for at least one chapter.

If there's even one unit who can go into a character's spot and do better than that character, then that character shouldn't be used, period. This is a basic demonstration of negative economic utility, and it's precisely why I don't advocate using it as a basis for ranking tier lists.

Edited August 14, 2009 by dondon151

[CATS]

Using that logic, this comparison is irrelevant, as neither Karla nor Nino will be fielded as it is far too inefficient to field them compared to Top and High tier characters.

When comparing two characters, it doesn't make sense to not assume they are both used.

Nino has her join chapter and is forced into NoF, where she can make some kind of pitiful contribution (I used her as Bolting fodder in my last run). Meanwhile, Karla is not even worth recruiting.

If there's even one unit who can go into a character's spot and do better than that character, then that character shouldn't be used, period. This is a basic demonstration of negative economic utility, and it's precisely why I don't advocate using it as a basis for ranking tier lists.

I don't see what you're protesting to or why. It's a fact that Rath is unable to do anything meaningful, while Athos does indeed make a difference for at least the one chapter in which he is present.

[dondon151]

I don't see what you're protesting to or why. It's a fact that Rath is unable to do anything meaningful, while Athos does indeed make a difference for at least the one chapter in which he is present.

Numbers? I find this assertion difficult to believe given the quality of FE7's enemies.

I'm protesting the notion that a unit shouldn't be used because he has a negative economic profit.

Edited August 14, 2009 by dondon151

[CATS]

Do I need them? I would take it as a given that Rath's performance is subpar compared to the other units available at the time. Do you disagree?

And I still don't understand your point. How is it not a problem to use a unit which is apparently creating a "negative profit?" The only reason I see being given against the idea of "negative utility" is "it makes availability an issue," but I don't see how that's supposed to be convincing or logical. So what if availability is an issue?

Edited August 14, 2009 by CATS

[Mekkah]

The Bartre training may not be hard, but that's irrelevant. The question is, is gaining Karla worth it?

If it was _worth it_ (as in, all positives beat all negatives), she would be Upper Mid, or maybe Lower Mid. No one is saying that.

[CATS]

So......you're acknowledging that she's not worth recruiting? Or not? That's sort of an ambiguous reply.