Fuck the Tiers

[Superbus]

I remember when Smash Bros. Brawl came out, and people started getting really into it. I never could - winning fights was an issue of getting in a few lucky shots, and if that failed, a war of attrition as to who could smash the right buttons fastest - but people naturally got into it because of the fanservice, and hey, it's a fun party game so long as everyone has the same skill level.

But some people REALLY got into it. Deep enough to get lost. This is about when the first discussions of these things called "tiers" came up. The most dedicated gamers decided to get together - I believe on GameFAQs - and separate the fighters in this game into tiers; high tiers for the best fighters, low tiers for the worst, in between, you all get the idea. This went beyond personal opinion; in fact, personal opinion was verboten. This was to be a scientific, God-approved grouping of video game characters into iron-clad definitions of their worth. As a statistical exercise, or something for a beginner, it's something to read and maybe even be entertained by.

One of the things that people like to do with tier lists is debate them. "Well, no, fighter X, I don't think, is better than fighter Y because of A, B and C". Unfortunately, the people that made these lists had become King Nerd in their band of nerds, and much like wolves, alpha nerds don't like having their territory pissed on. This usually led to retorts that sounded to me, personally, like "THE TIERS HAVE SPOKEN. BEGONE, MORTAL". Most of you could see the inevitable result coming, even if you weren't there: fights, name calling, and (usually completely arbitrary) bannings galore. As an outsider to all of this, this was mildly entertaining; after all, what is more fun to watch - in a slapstick sense - than a turf war between nerds?

However, like any parasitic disease, this plague started to spread. It spread to other fighting games; OK, no problem. But then it started to spread to the Fire Emblem fandom. By this point, the FE fandom was getting way too stat-happy for it's own good, and the tiers were only making that better or worse, depending on your opinion of them. Personal opinion in a series that had relied upon personal attachments to characters that could permanently die to be notable no longer had a place in discussion. What's that? You like that character your favourite FE? Well, she's OBVIOUSLY not as good a mage as this other character! You get him four stages earlier, and due to his growths in A, B, C and D, he has a point potential of +.73 better than YOUR shitty character, and since there's a grand total of 16 light mages compared to 9 dark mages, most of whom are lower leveled and only two of whom have Aura, you OBVIOUSLY want the better overall stats, as measured by this easy formula I learned in my university's Calculus class! See, it's easy to see why your favourite character is wrong! Stupid faggot!

As I was running FESS at this time, I didn't like this trend, and made a rare precedent of strongly dissuading my members from starting their tier shit on my forum (I think the only other time I made my members avoid a topic at that level was when I had to temporarily put a stop to religiously based topics in the Serious Discussion forum, due to some of our more *devout* members fucking things up). We were having enough of a problem with the stat guys derailing every single topic in the FE forums as it was, and making the FE boards a hostile place to post for newbies and anyone who just wanted to talk about something else; I wasn't having that Smash shit on my forum.

Well, long story short, FESS is now in the history books, and as I look VERY briefly around here, we couldn't keep the tiers out. That in itself is fine; like any disease, it could be quarantined to it's own section and allowed to fester among itself and eat itself to death. However, just like what happened in the Smash boards, I notice that the stat guys are taking over again. I stopped talking about Shadow Dragon - a game I imported from Japan, beat, and wrote a review on before Europe even knew what was about to hit 'em - because I was really sick and tired of being told that my characters were wrong because of some shit that I - someone who's beaten H5, mind - didn't realise, nor that I fucking cared about. It's been the same way about other games for awhile now; yes, I know her overall stats don't match up and that her magic power will grow disproportionately with her skill and that, combined with her light frame makes wielding heavier tomes a burden, yes, I know there are technically *better* options, but can I just fucking use Lilina in peace? No? OK, I'll go back to Serious Discussion and talk to human beings aga-- oh, wait.

I see two problems, and it's inherent in this, and all other games that have diehard niche fanbases like this: the stat guys are so hardcore that they overwhelm anyone that might not want to discuss who has a .04% better chance of winning a stage optimally, and it stunts discussion of the games themselves. You know... the games? That's right, there's a plot and everything! And in the older games, there are even some very interesting characters! I'm a Tate fan, and trust me, very little of that has to do with the advantages of using her over Thany. I also really like Fee, though most of that is because she's flying death if she's had the Hero Lance passed down. Yes, that's personal experience, don't attack me stat guys...

Just something to consider after reading this massive missive: don't love the games so much that you smother them.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Superbus

[Florete]

I think you need to take a closer look if that's the way you think of our tiers. No one gets flamed or whatever you're saying for using bad characters. I use bad characters all the time myself, no one cares.

It's true, sometimes the "stat guys" "invade" other topics, and I don't like it when that happens either, but sometimes people say things that flip the switch inside them. However, as far as I can see, that doesn't happen too often in topics that obviously don't want it here (Which means, in a topic asking about the best mage, expect some "stat guys" to join in).

What's that? You like that character your favourite FE? Well, she's OBVIOUSLY not as good a mage as this other character!

This appears to be a common misunderstanding. No one will do something like that if you mention how someone like Lilina is your favorite character, and if someone does, that person likely isn't the most well-liked person on the board already (aka the douchebag that needs to shut up). Hell, some of my favorite characters are terrible, or at least less than good (Cath, Rebecca, L'Arachel, FE10 Astrid, etc.). Do you know how many times I've gotten that kind of reply for mentioning it? Zero.

If you want stat arguments, you can find them in the right threads. If you don't, it should be fairly easy to stay away from them. If you just want to discuss favorites and who you like and that stuff, no one will stop you or get in your way. But if you go into a tier thread and say "Lilina should rise to Top cuz she rocks ur socks," then good night, Moon, because you asked for it.

I hope this helped. Looking back, I'm not quite sure I said all that right, but it should work out. Oh, and I'm a Tate fan myself. :D

[Dr. Tarrasque]

yes, I know there are technically *better* options, but can I just fucking use Lilina in peace?

You can, it's your playthrough. There's a difference in using Lilina because you like to and claiming that she's a "great" character.

Tier lists aren't made to force you into using those characters, they're just there to rank them based on a established criteria.

[Remmé]

Tier lists are there for me to laugh at.

LET'S COMPARE CHARACTERS WHO HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ROLES

Which reminds me of how lucky I am to at least avoid too much argument with American gamers, who always have "WHAT?" ideas of what's good or bad. The Smash Bros series, the latest game included, is no exception. Any game I have that can be competitive in a way is no exception. At least tier lists are almost useful with Shadow Dragon WiFi, but even then people need to smarten up about what they compare with one another. Comparing two casters is fine. Comparing a caster to something like a pegasus knight is a joke. Seeing tier lists is a joke. Imaging these things matter in any place outside of Shadow Dragon WiFi is a joke. Fire Emblem games will always be easy if you stop and think sans the times you get RNG screwed immensely, then tier lists will rarely matter. Seeing argument about FE6-9 or 11 characters like the game will actually be severely harder on people if they don't use anything top tier characters is really funny.

I wish I could ignore tier hounds tracking my messages, but unfortunately on the Internet I see them much more than I'd like. Maybe they just feel really amazing to tell me that the character I like is only 8th place as opposed to higher when I only claimed they are a great unit and not the best unit. Like I broke a sacred law. Maybe they should spend less time obsessing over numbers and more time loving the characters for who they are and not sucking at the game to the point where it can be implied difficulty. It must feel really good to spill out all that juicy research you did on numbers for a single game in the series. Too bad there aren't a whole lot of characters who aren't "great". In fact, there are many great characters in the series, just some who rank in greater um... greatness.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Rhelm

[NoNameAtAll]

You can, it's your playthrough. There's a difference in using Lilina because you like to and claiming that she's a "great" character.

Tier lists aren't made to force you into using those characters, they're just there to rank them based on a established criteria.

They also help fanboys go BAAAAAAAAAW.

Like Kainmaster.

But in all seriousness, Sirius nailed it.

If one wanted to use Sophia, for example and she turned out good, that's fine. After all, no one is attempting to keep another from playing like that. But that's personal experience that will not necessarily apply to others. Hence, the averages work the best, etc.

They help form logical suggestions, should a new player ask which characters to use.

[Mekkah]

Reading your post makes me think you haven't really taken a good look at what tier topics are like.

If someone asks whether Lugh or Lilina is the better character, and Ayanami comes in and spreads a lot of misinformation about why Lilina is soooo good, then of course I'll be pointing out the flaws there. If someone recommends someone else to use [unit A] over [unit B] because of their personal experiences (stat-wise), then I'll happily use averages to show how accurate that was. Because I don't like people spreading false facts.

Otherwise, you will never see me (or most other debaters) interfere with other people's choices, and quite often I'll use crappy characters myself just for the novelty of it. The tier topics are just a hobby for most people who like numbers and logic and think of it as a sport as much as chess or a game like mafia.

Almost every other topic on the FE boards is still full of fanboyism and story discussion if you're into that. So I don't see where you're coming from with "don't love the games so much that you smother them."

[Roxas]

Silly Bowser! Tiers r 4 queers! :D

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, I agree with most of what has been said here.

On the same note, people usually don't argue when asked "who's your favorite Swordmaster/Sage/whatever?", since that's a matter of personal choice. Now if it's matter of who's the best, that's debatable.

[Remmé]

I'm pretty fine with arguing niche and role. It can often cross class boundaries and sometimes decide the validity. An example would be how people compare flying units. From my experience, a lot of the times pegasi and wyverns have different suites, but there have been wyverns in the series with pegasi-like stats. You could argue said wyvern rider with a pegasus knight. It can be even more extreme, like how Gaiden has a Boey. He's a horrible unit as an actual mage but for some reason the guy has astonishing defense. For Celica's party he can very well be the best tank for many situations. I guess that's a bad example considering the game's vast differences (like being able to grind all you want) with the rest of the series but eh, I could think of a better example if I wasn't playing it again.

[VincentASM]

I might not like tier lists, but I don't see any problems with their existance. This is probably a completely silly comparison, but it's like the spam forums - if you don't like them, you just avoid them. I mean, you're not going to click on a topic you don't like just to get a headache, right?

That said, as some people probably mentioned or implied, I think the problem arises when tier list logic spreads to other topics that either clearly don't need it or shouldn't need it. There was a fairly huge fiasco early on in these forums where I literally had to ban FE debating (except in debating threads) because of the flaming that was going on. These days, things have seem to be going more smoothily.

Not sure if it's related, but I notice quite a lot of threads (in GameFAQs or elsewhere) that usually just comprise of "X character is really the best" or "Why do people think X character is bad?" followed by mini-debates to prove otherwise/why. There might be nothing wrong with those topics, but they always crack me up for some reason. I'm assuming its the clashing of polar opposite ideals (you have those who think the best character is the best statistically and then those who weigh in every other factor - but the former don't care about those other factors, so its like preaching to the choir...).

[DragonBladeSniper]

I didn't read your whole post but I'll just reply to the general idea. Sometimes it's annoying like in games like Super Smash Bros. when people say "OMG YOUR ONLY USING HIGH TIER!!!!", but in Fire Emblem it's just to show who are good units... Nobody ever said "Wil is in low tier, he sucks." They say "Wil isn't good because of _____ reason". When someone says they like a "bad" unit, it's rare to see someone talk about tiers in reply. I don't really mind tiers in Fire Emblem really.

[Celice]

The only problem with tiers is that their "logic" is usually warped and inconsistent, and when little ones try to emulate others, they pick up these bad trends and take it elsewhere. All debates eventually see the point "this character is a loser because" at least thrice during a "discussion" and no one seems to care.

So apart from turning to dumb fuckery, they're also laughable that people argue over constants in a game where the game doesn't even have a real random number generator. This means averages do not exist. This also means, as the system is abusable, that theoretically one character, in their play style, could always have better characters than what averages and petty droll dictate because they manipulate the slots into their favor. Rarely do tiers represent gameplay. But hey, at least it gives some people a thing to look back on and think "I did great things with my life."

[Sasori]

I find the tier lists interesting to follow but I just use the characters who I like. for example I dont care how good shinnon is i never used him cause I dislike his character.

[Rehab]

People actually have gotten attacked in just random topics for talking about using a harder character, which is retarded. To me this is less something controllable and more the dumber end of the fanbase having one-track minds. Forgive the meatriding from a random, but I haven't seen a whole lot of Mekkah, Vykan etc randomly telling somebody they are stupid for using a lesser character in just any random topic, but I have seen that kind of crap from, well, random FEBoards idiots. It comes with the territory I think.

As for people actually organizing that shit: whatever floats your video game board discussion bro. Just when people talk any form of shit about it, it gets stupid.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Rehab

[Mekkah]

So apart from turning to dumb fuckery, they're also laughable that people argue over constants in a game where the game doesn't even have a real random number generator. This means averages do not exist. This also means, as the system is abusable, that theoretically one character, in their play style, could always have better characters than what averages and petty droll dictate because they manipulate the slots into their favor. Rarely do tiers represent gameplay. But hey, at least it gives some people a thing to look back on and think "I did great things with my life."

Tier lists do not consider RNG abuse or any kind of abuse valid because not only are they essentially cheating the system, but also because such abuse is tedious and eliminates pretty much any difference between characters (making it pretty much an availability contest).

The fact that it doesn't have a real RN generator doesn't mean you can't use averages. That fact only holds true if you go out of your way to use this generator. If you pay no mind to the RN orders, then it might as well be random (not technically, but as far as its effects go, it's there).

[Meteor]

I avoid tier topics for the most part because I also don't really give a shit if I'm using my characters to their utmost potential. However, posts like this:

I'm not saying [sedgar]'s bad or anything, but just overrated IMO like his buddy Wolf.

are annoying because they attack characters for absolutely no reason, and implies that others should change their opinion just because one guy had a bad experience with them. Posting in this manner is just asking to be challenged.

"I dis/like this character because of my experience" is totally different from "You shouldn't dis/like this character because of my experience."

Edited July 19, 2009 by Meteor

[Rodykitty]

Only Kainmaster is banned from using his favorite characters.

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Tier lists have their value. They separate the affinity level for characters by people from the actual effectiveness of said characters. It's just that sometimes people like Inui/Vegeta/Marcus tend to be a bit overzealous.

[Florete]

Well, long story short, FESS is now in the history books, and as I look VERY briefly around here, we couldn't keep the tiers out.

After looking at your post again, I notice this line a bit more closely. How can you barely look around (as the above statement implies) and immediately be all judgemental about it?

Tier lists are there for me to laugh at.

LET'S COMPARE CHARACTERS WHO HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ROLES

You appear to have no idea how debating really works if that's how you think of it. I could go into detail, but that would likely be a pointless endeavor.

Only Kainmaster is banned from using his favorite characters.

This man speaks the truth.

[NinjaMonkey]

I find tier lists quite laughable to be honest: According to the RD tier thread, Sothe is supposedly a high tier character. However, I find him to be quite useless - in fact, I find that most of the characters below him are much, much better than he is!

[TheEnd]

I tend to avoid tier lists and debates not only because of overhype issues, wordiness and other things, but especially because they're usually focused on non-abusive, ranked hard playthroughs - and huh, I abuse normal modes, so it's pretty much a hostile environment.

Thankfully, there's the FE4 THREAD if I need to discuss anything.

[Ercdouken]

I actually abuse reinforcements, but it depends on the situation.

[Rei Rei]

Tier Lists are nice to piss fanboys off, but still units like Ayra and Mareeta deserve less hype.

[Aless_and_Sety_Rule]

Tier lists are my Bible.

[Rodykitty]

I find tier lists quite laughable to be honest: According to the RD tier thread, Sothe is supposedly a high tier character. However, I find him to be quite useless - in fact, I find that most of the characters below him are much, much better than he is

Then go ask why Sothe is so high. Either they'll:

1) Debate on it since FE9/10 tier lists don't seem to be stabalized

2) Tell you why collectively

I tend to avoid tier lists and debates not only because of overhype issues, wordiness and other things, but especially because they're usually focused on non-abusive, ranked hard playthroughs - and huh, I abuse normal modes, so it's pretty much a hostile environment.

I've had to shut down overhyping in my tier list thread (I'm sure at least one person knows who he is). I usually find that overhyped aspects get played back down again anyway.

And most tier lists stopped being based on ranking because EXP rank and efficiency don't really go hand in hand. This should be a great decision for most people because now Dart isn't in auto-bottom tier anymore.