Fuck the Tiers

[dondon151]

By the way, tier lists in this game happened long before Brawl came out...

[Prince Levin]

Amen Superbus.

Giant egos and hostility seem to abound in tier list discussion or character discussion...which actually pretty hilarious when you think about it.

There isn't really a problem if tier list and character discussion stay in their respected topics though, whatever floats peoples' boats...but when they invade other topics that's another story.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Prince Levin

[NoNameAtAll]

Amen Superbus.

Care to elaborate?

I've seen you argue in them and you were overly arrogant as well.

Just curious.

[Prince Levin]

Care to elaborate?

1. People take it way to seriously.

2. It often derails other topics.

3. 9 times out of 10, if a person says he or she likes this character and said character is 'low or low mid tier' someone will slam the person even though 'liking' a character may have nothing to do with his/her efficiency.

4. As I said before, egos and hostility often enter discussions.

5. It is rather pointless when you think about it, unless you want to do a ranked run.

6. Fire emblem is a game, games are for fun. Moreover FE, besides wifi SD, is a 1 player experience. With fighting games at least there seems to be a point especially for those hardcore gamers who enter tournaments and all that.

[NoNameAtAll]

1. People take it way to seriously.

2. It often derails other topics.

3. 9 times out of 10, if a person says he or she likes this character and said character is 'low or low mid tier' someone will slam the person even though 'liking' a character may have nothing to do with his/her efficiency.

4. As I said before, egos and hostility often enter discussions.

5. It is rather pointless when you think about it, unless you want to do a ranked run.

6. Fire emblem is a game, games are for fun. Moreover FE, besides wifi SD, is a 1 player experience. With fighting games at least there seems to be a point especially for those hardcore gamers who enter tournaments and all that.

1. That's to be expected.

2. Not really. If one asks if a certain character is good, why NOT answer using information based on the tiers?

3. Again, not really. Chainey just stated that those who make the tiers don't care if others use the units. But don't try to argue that the unit is good without having some proof that isn't just based off personal experience.

4. Again, expected.

5. Talking about the game in such detail in any situation is pointless, when one could be playing the game. Your point?

6. No one denied that.

Edited July 20, 2009 by NoNameAtAll

[Rodykitty]

1. People take it way to seriously.

Stop having a problem with this. We're being serious to each other, not you. Oh wait, I saw you debate in a tier topic I believe I'm even reading some of your posts in the FE4 Gen 1 tier list thread, you even tell someone they don't know what they're talking about, and you walk into this thread and tell us that we're too serious when you seemed very full of yourself in that thread. You're right that tier debaters have egos, because you've shown a lot of it.

3. 9 times out of 10, if a person says he or she likes this character and said character is 'low or low mid tier' someone will slam the person even though 'liking' a character may have nothing to do with his/her efficiency.

I've yet to see this happen to anyone that wasn't asking to be slammed. Most of the people that get slammed for liking Lilina or Est or whatever isn't because they like them, but because they claim they are good or better than another character when they're not.

People, there's a difference between liking a character and overstating their worth.

4. As I said before, egos and hostility often enter discussions.

Then said ego gets crushed by a someone's argument and humility happens. It's happened to me many times. Why hasn't it happened to you?

5. It is rather pointless when you think about it, unless you want to do a ranked run.

For the thousandth time, tier lists are no longer based on ranked runs. Did you only read Superbus' post then decide to post worshipping the ground he walks upon? Because I must have said that we dropped ranked play as the main criteria at least twice.

6. Fire emblem is a game, games are for fun. Moreover FE, besides wifi SD, is a 1 player experience. With fighting games at least there seems to be a point especially for those hardcore gamers who enter tournaments and all that.

Or we are listing which units are the best to worse. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about this, especially since Fire Emblem games tend to have so much value in good units.

[Agro]

Fire Emblem "debates" are absolute bullshit. Debates are a match of intellect and preparedness, not shoving figures into each others faces. The "debates" on this forum have absolutely no form at all and you all need to be taught how to debate like real men.

That being said, fuck tier lists. I'll use who I want. I don't really care if Lucas is vulnerable on frame six of his up-smash or whatever shit tourneyfags can pull out of their asses.

[Vykan12]

The "debates" on this forum have absolutely no form at all and you all need to be taught how to debate like real men.

Care to elaborate?

That being said, fuck tier lists. I'll use who I want.

Tier lists are not about telling people who to use. They are merely an intellectual exercise in ranking characters based on set criteria.

[Sasori]

I dont trust tiers but i have no problems with tiers existing but i do hate al those tier worshippers on gamefaqs(most of the time on the brawl or melee board) who flame you for saying bad things about the tiers list or the person who made a official tier list

the only game where i am realy certain of tiers are fire emblem games because some chars come late in the game verry underlevled are jeigan characters or in RD are never in your army til part 4 and because you cant use them in almost al the other chapters are underlevled

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Is any FE tier list truly "stabalized?"

FE3 and FE5 tier lists are pretty close to that point. An FE4 tier list shouldn't be difficult to stabilize unless you're counting ALL children in the 2nd gen.

I think tier lists such as FE9/10 may be difficult to stabilize due to the character balance... in FE3 and FE5 character Balance is somewhat obvious for the most part while in FE9 I've seen several comparisons of characters a tier or 2 below another being comparable to them on join time =\

Oh and staves.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Sirius

[Gemini-Saga]

I ignore Tier debates...I may get pissed because of how people go to destroy one Char.

(I hate to see Illyana been bashed.)

[Mekkah]

The "debates" on this forum have absolutely no form at all and you all need to be taught how to debate like real men.

You can accuse debating of a lot of things wrong, but having no form? Form can mean a lot here, but I can assure you me and a lot of others have tried hard to put "form" into debating.

If you're referring to respect for opponents and judges - there's a rule about it.

If you're referring to a certain process for challenging, debating and judging - it's there.

If you're referring to different forms of debate, such as conditional or short - it's there.

That being said, fuck tier lists. I'll use who I want. I don't really care if Lucas is vulnerable on frame six of his up-smash or whatever shit tourneyfags can pull out of their asses.

That's good. Use what you want. Every single regular debater in this topic has stressed this point so many times I'm baffled you still bring it up in post #57: we don't care who you use. We care if you spread misinformation about a character that could mislead others.

[Renall]

Fire Emblem "debates" are absolute bullshit. Debates are a match of intellect and preparedness, not shoving figures into each others faces. The "debates" on this forum have absolutely no form at all and you all need to be taught how to debate like real men.

Real debates generally use facts and figures. Do you think lawyers and debate teams and legislators just talk at each other without evidence of anything at all, then decide who won based on the person they like more?

I mean, besides when smash fanatic shows up in a GameFAQs list.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Renall

[Florete]

Fire Emblem "debates" are absolute bullshit. Debates are a match of intellect and preparedness, not shoving figures into each others faces. The "debates" on this forum have absolutely no form at all and you all need to be taught how to debate like real men.

You are full of bullshit. I've had real debates with real people in real life before, and it's hardly any different. You get your info, you state your case, you attempt to prove to the judges/jury that your case is the right one and your opponent is wrong.

That being said, fuck tier lists. I'll use who I want. I don't really care if Lucas is vulnerable on frame six of his up-smash or whatever shit tourneyfags can pull out of their asses.

For the 372,947,298,944,739 time, no one cares who you use. Since you've been replied to by about 3 people already, I'll assume you get this.

[TheEnd]

Real debates generally use facts and figures. Do you think lawyers and debate teams and legislators just talk at each other without evidence of anything at all, then decide who won based on the person they like more?

I mean, besides when smash fanatic shows up in a GameFAQs list.

Lawyers are full of bullshit.

Just saying. Even if their arguments are generally based on evidence, they're warped to ridiculous levels to meet their clients' best interests.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Tiena

[Superbus]

Ask why in the tier thread and I'll be happy to explain. I'd explain here, but I have a feeling Bus doesn't want this to turn into a mini-debate thread.

Hey, take the thread whereever you want. I've never cared if my topics stray off the beaten path. Though this turning into a stat thread would kinda validate exactly what I was saying initially.

I'm still reading responses, but on P1, you asked how I could criticize if I'd only taken a brief look around. I've only *had* to take a brief look, because my experience with the tier threads - and their results - goes over years, and from other boards as well.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Superbus

[Nightmare]

I'm not sure if you actually meant that but tiers existed before Brawl. Just clarifying.

I believe most fighting game tiers to be bullshit. I'm not sure how I feel about Fire Emblem tiers. The debates are fun to read and the tiers are fun to examine, but I don't really care for them in the end. Shoving tiers into someone's face is stupid, just because they prefer a certain character, but other than that I don't think tiers are really harmful unless what Superbus stated happens (mud-slinging and all that jazz).

[uguu]

I'm still reading responses, but on P1, you asked how I could criticize if I'd only taken a brief look around. I've only *had* to take a brief look, because my experience with the tier threads - and their results - goes over years, and from other boards as well.

Because everyone acts the same.

[Rodykitty]

I believe most fighting game tiers to be bullshit.

Unless you're playing at a high enough level where your character's strengths/weaknesses really exist and everyone knows it.

Shoving tiers into someone's face is stupid, just because they prefer a certain character

Once again, we only do this when they say their favorite character is better than they actually are. If people would actually just limit themselves to liking their character instead of claiming they are something they are not, there wouldn't be any problems.

[Nightmare]

Unless you're playing at a high enough level where your character's strengths/weaknesses really exist and everyone knows it.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Once again, we only do this when they say their favorite character is better than they actually are. If people would actually just limit themselves to liking their character instead of claiming they are something they are not, there wouldn't be any problems.

I never said anyone does it, I just said it's stupid.

[Rodykitty]

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

I said:

Unless you're playing at a high enough level where your character's strengths/weaknesses really exist and everyone knows it.

I never said anyone does it, I just said it's stupid.

So why bring it up if you know it isn't a problem?

[Nightmare]

Only saying what would make it (FE tiers etc.) stupid. Forgive me for my bad wording.

[Mekkah]

I've only *had* to take a brief look, because my experience with the tier threads - and their results - goes over years, and from other boards as well.

I call confirmance bias. Many, many tier list discussions on this forum are much more civil than the hijacks you might have gotten used to over these years of experience. There's a few that give the rest a bad rep by throwing in insults along the way (mostly smash fanatic and sometimes whoever he baits), but that doesn't mean you get to generalize the harmless ones.

[Prince Levin]

Once again, we only do this when they say their favorite character is better than they actually are. If people would actually just limit themselves to liking their character instead of claiming they are something they are not, there wouldn't be any problems.

Lol, what's the big deal? What's with all thie seriousness? Since you are referring to all tier enthusiests as 'we', let me say this. You, the political party of tierists, have continually stated you don't have problems with people liking characters. However it is pretty much guaranteed if someone says 'I like Gordon, he rocks!' Someone is going to come in with their nerdy stat mumbo jumbo and slam the person and the character. Goading that person into argument, when the person saying 'gordon rocks' could have just meant I like his attitude/personality. Tierists are ready to jump on people for any subjective comment about a character.

2. Since you say tier lists are usually not based on ranked runs, then they really are pointless since you can use pretty much any combination of characters and still beat the game.

3. I have commented in tier list debates, just to see how it is. The lol, giant egos, worshipping of tierist veterens, and general hostility was amusing.

4. Comparing it to chess? Chess is the timeless game of pure strategy, debating stats is nothing like it.

5. 'Prevent spreading misinformation' Are you the government? Who cares, so then some people new to the game will use someone who isn't necessarily the 'best' so what? Will that lead to some dire tragedy? Anyways people nowadays spend too much time looking to use the 'best' character or characters, instead of just using who they like and experimenting for themselves.

6. Many threads have been derailed, when some comment starts a geeky tier debate when it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Tier discussions should stay in their respective threads.

[Colonel M]

Must be bashing my debating skillz.

I've seen more than SF tier lists, and I can say for the most part they are pretty civil myself. Even before when I went to FESS for like... a very short time it was quite civil as well. I guess there were times when I hated to see the words "We're going to Sacae in FE6" shoved into my face all the time (can't remember who did that tier list); however, for the most part there weren't problems.

By the way, Gordon IS terrible. I don't care WHAT you feed me, his growth spread is horrible in every game that he was in. Even in SD he averages piss poor Spd. I'm a stat junkie, but you don't need to tell me twice how bad some characters are. It's your decision to use who you want, but don't be spreading false information. <- I don't see what's the major issue with that.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Colonel M