Fuck the Tiers

[Rodykitty]

Lol, what's the big deal? What's with all thie seriousness?

If I was as serious as you claimed, I wouldn't be cracking up at your post right now.

Since you are referring to all tier enthusiests as 'we', let me say this. You, the political party of tierists, have continually stated you don't have problems with people liking characters. However it is pretty much guaranteed if someone says 'I like Gordon, he rocks!' Someone is going to come in with their nerdy stat mumbo jumbo and slam the person and the character.

Point to me where this actually happened without the person trying to explain why he thinks Gordon is good. We still make fun of Gordon from time to time, but it's mostly joking now.

2. Since you say tier lists are usually not based on ranked runs, then they really are pointless since you can use pretty much any combination of characters and still beat the game.

Or we tier characters based on who is the most useful. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. It's a knowledge we are interested to know. Also, not every character is suitable for beating the game efficiently or in a strategic manner. Grinding Radd or Est is nowhere near as strategic as making the most out of units the way they currently are.

4. Comparing it to chess? Chess is the timeless game of pure strategy, debating stats is nothing like it.

That whole chess thread had absolutely nothing to do with tiers. Mostly a game design comparison.

5. 'Prevent spreading misinformation' Are you the government? Who cares, so then some people new to the game will use someone who isn't necessarily the 'best' so what? Will that lead to some dire tragedy? Anyways people nowadays spend too much time looking to use the 'best' character or characters, instead of just using who they like and experimenting for themselves.

Most people that make threads asking for character suggestions do want to avoid crappy characters. I usually leave it up to them who to use, but I warn them about some aspects of characters that are unfavorable, or correct misinformation some people may have.

6. Many threads have been derailed, when some comment starts a geeky tier debate when it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Tier discussions should stay in their respective threads.

Pfft. To act like tiers are the only thing that derails forum threads. Forum threads naturally get derailed if people let them.

[Superbus]

Once again, we only do this when they say their favorite character is better than they actually are. If people would actually just limit themselves to liking their character instead of claiming they are something they are not, there wouldn't be any problems.

So what if they think their best character is better than they actually are? Yes, it's one thing to point it out ("Wow, you like to use Lilina? Uh, OK, but have you tried Lugh yet?"), my problem comes when people harp on about it, and it takes out an entire thread.

[-Cynthia-]

FE3 and FE5 tier lists are pretty close to that point. An FE4 tier list shouldn't be difficult to stabilize unless you're counting ALL children in the 2nd gen.

I think tier lists such as FE9/10 may be difficult to stabilize due to the character balance... in FE3 and FE5 character Balance is somewhat obvious for the most part while in FE9 I've seen several comparisons of characters a tier or 2 below another being comparable to them on join time =\

Oh and staves.

FE9 (and FE8 IMO) have the problem of being rather easy games, thus all the characters are pretty similar-- almost everyone is decent to some degree. In harder games like FE6 and 10, the bottom and low characters are much less usable.

The problem with FE10 is the different teams setup, it adds another complication since there are long periods of time where we can't compare characters directly, we have to measure them relative to the team. I think the FE9 list is fairly stable now though, there probably aren't any gross inaccuracies.

And yeah, debates in a tier topic and especially formal debates are pretty civilized, save for a few select individuals who enjoy adding flames to their posts (smash).

Edited July 20, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Rodykitty]

So what if they think their best character is better than they actually are? Yes, it's one thing to point it out ("Wow, you like to use Lilina? Uh, OK, but have you tried Lugh yet?"), my problem comes when people harp on about it, and it takes out an entire thread.

Nobody in their right mind would actually suggest to use Lugh in response to someone liking to use Lilina. The responses come from if the Lilina user was one of those Kainmaster types and starts hyping that one Magic stat over the other character's better leads as if it were fact and not personal preference.

I know I prefer using Yubello over Linda in FE3 Book 2 even though Linda is clearly superior and Yubello requires babying, but I'm not going to claim Yubello is better because his Mag stat is so huge.

[Defeatist Elitist]

So what if they think their best character is better than they actually are? Yes, it's one thing to point it out ("Wow, you like to use Lilina? Uh, OK, but have you tried Lugh yet?"), my problem comes when people harp on about it, and it takes out an entire thread.

Well, it's actually usually something like this;

"Lilina is the best character ever, Lugh sucks balls"

"No, not really. Lugh is pretty much better for X reasons"

"FUCK YOU THIS IS MY OPINION GO DIE"

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Lol, what's the big deal? What's with all thie seriousness? Since you are referring to all tier enthusiests as 'we', let me say this. You, the political party of tierists, have continually stated you don't have problems with people liking characters.

And we don't. I used Marty in my latest FE5 playthrough and I didn't slash my wrists or have any1 bash me for it.

Goading that person into argument, when the person saying 'gordon rocks' could have just meant I like his attitude/personality. Tierists are ready to jump on people for any subjective comment about a character.

I've yet to see someone make such comment about Gordon for his personality (he has one?). Most follow up with saying "high STR" and such false comments.

2. Since you say tier lists are usually not based on ranked runs, then they really are pointless since you can use pretty much any combination of characters and still beat the game.

They're useful. If I wanna trample the game and make it look so ridiculously easy, I'll use high tiers. If I want a more challenging experience, I'll use low tier characters. Saves the trouble of having to look at so many numbers.

The only use posts such as yours are good for would be laughter.

3. I have commented in tier list debates, just to see how it is. The lol, giant egos, worshipping of tierist veterens, and general hostility was amusing.

I have seen your comments on tier list debates. They're laughable, ad hominen and empty words. We're human and we like a good laugh every now and then so feel free to keep making laughable comments :)

5. 'Prevent spreading misinformation' Are you the government? Who cares, so then some people new to the game will use someone who isn't necessarily the 'best' so what? Will that lead to some dire tragedy?

People often ask "which characters are good?". We give them an answer that's supported with evidence. I would think only a retard would say that the better answer would be the one lacking evidence.

Like with many things in life, misinformation will be argued against.

Anyways people nowadays spend too much time looking to use the 'best' character or characters, instead of just using who they like and experimenting for themselves.

This pretty much supports tier lists. If they want to use the best, that's their decision, tiers are there to help them pick, thus, they are useful. Again, what's the use of your post?

FE9 (and FE8 IMO) have the problem of being rather easy games, thus all the characters are pretty similar-- almost everyone is decent to some degree. In harder games like FE6 and 10, the bottom and low characters are much less usable.

Not necessarily, FE3 is pretty easy too.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Sirius

[Superbus]

Nobody in their right mind would actually suggest to use Lugh in response to someone liking to use Lilina. The responses come from if the Lilina user was one of those Kainmaster types and starts hyping that one Magic stat over the other character's better leads as if it were fact and not personal preference.

It was a rhetorical statement, and again, stop fucking up the point of my article with your stat nonsense.

[Rodykitty]

stop fucking up the point of my article with your stat nonsense.

I will do as I please. If you are going to try to downplay tiers, be prepared to deal with the statistical aspect of it as well.

[Superbus]

One more thing, that I just noticed:

This whole OP seems to be less of a diatribe against tier lists and more of condescending opinion of people who take gaming more seriously than Superbus. If you're going to play the life card, the internet is not the place to do it.

You're looking at what we like to call literary exaggeration, mainly for satirical purposes. It certainly makes my post more interesting to read than "tiers suck because I hate them. fuck tiers, they're sucky mcsuck." I'm a writer, I try to spice up what I say.

I will do as I please. If you are going to try to downplay tiers, be prepared to deal with the statistical aspect of it as well.

Thanks for validating my point. Edited July 20, 2009 by Superbus

[NoNameAtAll]

It was a rhetorical statement, and again, stop fucking up the point of my article with your stat nonsense.

Ok, so we'll let idiots like Kainmaster spread false information, about how Lilina is godly, yet Lugh is shit, based on his vids.

Let's make it so that only personal experience matters, so that if someone has a godly Yuno, it means Yuno must be good.

Again, we have no problems if you like a character. But trying to make the character seem like something it isn't is bad.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Edited July 20, 2009 by NoNameAtAll

[Rodykitty]

Thanks for validating my point.

How so? By having a discussion about what you're complaining about? As far as I'm concerned, using tier talk as an example of what happened in the past is completely on topic, and completely in context with what is going on.

[Vykan12]

2. Since you say tier lists are usually not based on ranked runs, then they really are pointless since you can use pretty much any combination of characters and still beat the game.

Tier lists don’t uniformly tell you who the best to worst characters are to beating a game easily (ie low risk). More importantly, they tell you what characters contribute the most towards efficiency (ie low turn count, small resource expenditure, etc).

3. I have commented in tier list debates, just to see how it is. The lol, giant egos, worshipping of tierist veterens, and general hostility was amusing.

You are obviously generalizing then. Read this and show me where all the egotism and hostility resides.

Also, I don’t get where people go off claiming the FE debating is basically nothing but stat whoring. If you guys actually read Solid, Cats, Reikken, Mekkah, etc debate posts, you’d see there is so much more to it than that. In more recent debates you’ll see discussions about the application of 1-2 range, the realism of a dancer supporting a combat unit, detailed analyses of the advantages that high movement, canto and rescuing provides, examining the limiting factor of being locked to 2 range, countless discussions trying to weigh the value of availability against other subjective factors, etc.

[book of life]

I don't like these things either, but you don't see me shoving sticks up people's asses.

But, if you want to argue or whatever, have fun and watch that blood pressure.

Edited July 20, 2009 by book of life

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Earlier in the topic you stated you wouldn't mind if the thread got derailed and now you are telling chainey to stop derailing your topic. Just wanted to point that out.

Personally I find that the tier debaters do tend to go into a topic to correct people but usually only do it if someone is saying something inaccurate or proclaiming some bottom tier character to be underrated then immediately puts down another unit higher than it without factual information or poorly planned arguments.

It's ok to like and use lilina.... it's just not ok to conclude that lilina is godly/lugh sucks just because of personal exp.

I am just using lilina/lugh as an example.

[NinjaMonkey]

Sothe is undoubtedly one of your best units in part 1, and part 1 makes up more than half his availability (56% if you count 1-6 and 4-E as 2 chapters).

Except, he sucks at actual combat (lol @ knives). I will admit though, that he is great at distracting the enemy from attacking anyone else...

How would that alone not warrant him a high ranking?

Because he sucks in the rest of the game (except in 3-6/3-13). Edited July 20, 2009 by NinjaMonkey

[Rehab]

If people would never be spineless derisive maggots about one way or another when using tier lists in a different context than debating them with some kind of a brain, there would be no problem at all as far as I'm concerened, but that's just FE forums for you. Personally, all I need is the assurance that I'm allowed to tell the nerd being a prick to me about Sue being a multiton weight around my team's neck and my life to shut the fuck up, thanks much.

[Vykan12]

Except, he sucks at actual combat (lol @ knives)

One-rounding almost every non-armor enemy in part 1 somehow sucks? News to me.

How would that alone not warrant him a high ranking?Because he sucks in the rest of the game (except in 3-6/3-13).

You can drop him in part 4 and still would've reaped the benefits of an excellent unit for 13 chapters. In contrast, someone with high availability such as Ike has 15 chapters of playtime.

Seems to me you're placing an extravagant amount of emphasis on lategame.

[NinjaMonkey]

Seems to me you're placing an extravagant amount of emphasis on lategame.

Considering any of the enemies in Part 4 can get him to half health with just one hit, yes I am.

[Florete]

Vykan, I know you want to and can prove this guy wrong, we both can, but I think it's best to just not worry about it. If he wants to seriously make a case, he'll post in the tier thread and we can own him there. However, I'm of the opinion it shouldn't happen here.

This goes for everyone. Remember, just because you can prove someone wrong doesn't mean you have to. Correcting misinformation is good, but some people are just a lost cause and sometimes it's not worth it.

[Dat Nick]

You can drop him in part 4

The issue is the game doesn't let you >_>

[Colonel M]

The issue is the game doesn't let you >_>

Kind of. He could sit away from the maps and IIRC can be de-selected in 4-E. Sothe is useful for the chapters that he's required in, it's just two in general (scrapping 4-E altogether) that he doesn't do so well in, and one of those he can simply search for treasure in the sand.

[Renall]

It was a rhetorical statement, and again, stop fucking up the point of my article with your stat nonsense.

This indicates that you were never sincere about your intentions when posting to begin with. This entire thread is pointless trolling.

[Celice]

oh my god this thread it is so full of love it is wonderful

[Kedyns Crow]

And we don't. I used Marty in my latest FE5 playthrough and I didn't slash my wrists or have any1 bash me for it.

I've yet to see someone make such comment about Gordon for his personality (he has one?). Most follow up with saying "high STR" and such false comments.

They're useful. If I wanna trample the game and make it look so ridiculously easy, I'll use high tiers. If I want a more challenging experience, I'll use low tier characters. Saves the trouble of having to look at so many numbers.

The only use posts such as yours are good for would be laughter.

I have seen your comments on tier list debates. They're laughable, ad hominen and empty words. We're human and we like a good laugh every now and then so feel free to keep making laughable comments :)

People often ask "which characters are good?". We give them an answer that's supported with evidence. I would think only a retard would say that the better answer would be the one lacking evidence.

Like with many things in life, misinformation will be argued against.

This pretty much supports tier lists. If they want to use the best, that's their decision, tiers are there to help them pick, thus, they are useful. Again, what's the use of your post?

Not necessarily, FE3 is pretty easy too.

Prince Levin was just stating his opinion. Are you telling me that in the Tier list topics, you tear people's legitimate posts apart piece by piece like that? I can understand doing that if the person was stating incorrect facts, but all Prince Levin was doing in his statement was giving his take on the situation. It seems to me like some people need to remember that they are talking to real people, and regardless of whether or not this is the Internet, that comments can still sting. When somebody tries adding what they think to a conversation, and then are shot down and get their statement ripped apart and then told that their posts "are only good... for laughter," then I can only imagine that they feel pretty shitty about themselves. Does it make you feel like a bigger man/woman if you are capable of making somebody feel worthless over the Internet? Furthermore, would you treat people like that in real life?

[Rodykitty]

Prince Levin was just stating his opinion.

An opinion that is intended to be judgmental. But you are right, all opinions are pure, clean, and can never be challenged by someone else's opinion, because that's how arguments and debate works, everybody just hides behind their opinion force field and stares at each other angrily.

I can understand doing that if the person was stating incorrect facts, but all Prince Levin was doing in his statement was giving his take on the situation. It seems to me like some people need to remember that they are talking to real people, and regardless of whether or not this is the Internet, that comments can still sting.

First of all, this is still a discussion about facts, an argument about the true nature of tier folk.

Secondly, Sirius said nothing that even resembles flaming or an insult. You're saying, that because Sirius is speaking what he believes is the truth, and saying it how it is, that Prince Levin is going to be stung by it?

You're supporting somebody that is openly being judgmental about how serious we are.

Are you telling me that in the Tier list topics, you tear people's legitimate posts apart piece by piece like that?

Is this a bad thing? They make many different points, we respond to every single point. It would actually be worse to simply pick out bits and pieces to respond to and ignore valid arguments.

Plus, it brings internet discussions a bit closer to real life. Unless it's like some super organized thing, I highly doubt people in real life would be speaking huge walls of text to each other before one responds with their own wall of text. It makes it much easier. I shouldn't be judged for this.

I can understand doing that if the person was stating incorrect facts, but all Prince Levin was doing in his statement was giving his take on the situation. It seems to me like some people need to remember that they are talking to real people, and regardless of whether or not this is the Internet, that comments can still sting. When somebody tries adding what they think to a conversation, and then are shot down and get their statement ripped apart and then told that their posts "are only good... for laughter," then I can only imagine that they feel pretty shitty about themselves.

Have you seen how condescending he was? He can clearly handle what we throw at him.

That, and his "take on the situation" happens to, you know, include facts we felt are wrong, so don't act like we're smacking opinions around for no reason.

Does it make you feel like a bigger man/woman if you are capable of making somebody feel worthless over the Internet? Furthermore, would you treat people like that in real life?

I am trying to justify myself so I can prevent feeling like a smaller man, not attempt to feel bigger than I am now.