Fuck the Tiers

[Kedyns Crow]

First off, I was talking about Levin's post not yours.

Ha, so I went through all that effort to defend mine when it didn't require it. Dammit. The reason why I thought you were referring to mine, however, was because my post was wrapped in quotes followed by a "I thought that was worthless."

Second, you have to be the biggest hypocrite in existence. First you complain that I don't listen to other people's opinions because I disagree with them, then you ask why people who disagreed with the topic even showed up. Apparently as soon as someone disagrees with you, they aren't supposed to talk at all.

You missed my point. Oh well. I'm pretty sure I attempted conveying it several times so I give up.

I have no idea what you're blathering on about statistical comparisons as opposed to listening what people are saying. Of course people can dislike tier topics if they choose, it's their right. However, all they really need do to do is stay out of tier topics, the people who enjoy them can be in them, everyone goes home happy. This thread really has no point, other than to say that some people don't enjoy tier topics, which was rather obvious before the topic was made.

That is getting close to what my point is. If you read what I've said to Red Fox I'm attempting to give a suggestion that could make that segregation even easier.

How hard is it not to click on a topic that has tier list in the thread title? Some people are less intelligent, but not clicking on it only requires basic literacy.

You are forgetting that the lack of knowledge isn't in the skill of clicking, but in knowing exactly what tier lists are. I'm pretty sure I attempted to explain that somewhere in one of my previous posts so I won't elaborate.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Kedyns Crow

[NoNameAtAll]

That is getting close to what my point is. If you read what I've said to Red Fox I'm attempting to give a suggestion that could make that segregation even easier.

It's not a good suggestion. Making an entire subforum for a Tier List TOPIC?

Think on that for a moment. A tier list is in one topic. Creating an entire subforum for one topic isn't exactly a good idea. >_>

What I mean is, making one for each game? Bad idea.

Just don't click the tier list topic. If one doesn't understand what it might be about, it might be best to stay away until better learning about it.

Edited July 21, 2009 by NoNameAtAll

[Kedyns Crow]

It's not a good suggestion. Making an entire subforum for a Tier List TOPIC?

Think on that for a moment. A tier list is in one topic. Creating an entire subforum for one topic isn't exactly a good idea. >_>

What I mean is, making one for each game? Bad idea.

Just don't click the tier list topic. If one doesn't understand what it might be about, it might be best to stay away until better learning about it.

And a good way to do that would be to separate the tier lists from the other topics. Within the subforum there can be a topic for each game. i don't see how that is any different then what is in place now except that it is much more organized. Red Fox stated herself there is only one tier topic per game. Why not separate them and group them together? While I understand what they are, and I do avoid them, others do not.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Kedyns Crow

[-Cynthia-]

It's not a good suggestion. Making an entire subforum for a Tier List TOPIC?

Think on that for a moment. A tier list is in one topic. Creating an entire subforum for one topic isn't exactly a good idea. >_>

What I mean is, making one for each game? Bad idea.

Just don't click the tier list topic. If one doesn't understand what it might be about, it might be best to stay away until better learning about it.

I think the suggestion is to lump all the tier topics into one seperate forum, which I'm not very sold on, though it's much better than having a seperate tier topic for each game. Generally FE fans tend to be more interested in one game than others, I tend to peruse FE9/10 forums more than the others, so I'll visit the tier threads and several other threads. I think it makes more sense just to keep the tier topics with their respective games(being part of the game and all) then make an entirely new forum just for 10 topics.

Um, who doesn't understand what they are? They're very clearly labeled, "FE8 tier list" and such. I cannot really fathom someone so dense that they would not think that topic was about tiers.

Edited July 21, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[NoNameAtAll]

I think the suggestion is to lump all the tier topics into one seperate forum, which I'm not very sold on, though it's much better than having a seperate tier topic for each game. Generally FE fans tend to be more interested in one game than others, I tend to peruse FE9/10 forums more than the others, so I'll visit the tier threads and several other threads. I think it makes more sense just to keep the tier topics with their respective games(being part of the game and all) then make an entirely new forum just for 10 topics.

Um, who doesn't understand what they are? They're very clearly labeled "FE8 tier list" and such.

I know. I guess I slightly misunderstood what he meant. But yeah, making a subforum for a very small amount of topics is pointless.

And I haven't a clue why either. :\

Edited July 21, 2009 by NoNameAtAll

[Florete]

For some reason you are dead set on thinking that I have a problem with the existence of tiers. I don't. The only problem that I have is the division that they create with people, which I didn't even notice until today. Good for you guys for taking action a year ago. Just because something has improved, however, does not mean it is perfect. I think that the forum can be improved more by creating a category right under "General Fire Emblem" that says "Tier Lists." It's more organized, and novice players browsing through the forums aren't going to mistake the tiers for something they aren't and then make fools of themselves. Most people don't fit what you evidentally consider smart, so because this is an open forum, you should cater to the less intelligent people just as much as the intelligent ones. My advice: Calm down. Reread my posts, but this time with the mindset of "what does he have to say?" instead of "how can I prove him wrong?"

You're suggesting we make a whole new subforum for about 10 topics in total, and that would make things more organized? No, all that would do is segregate us like America used to do with African Americans. "Debaters go here, other people go here." For the third time, a tier thread is one thread per board (a few more in the NES/SNES Era board). If anything, just pinning it would make it more organized, but I'm not going to go that far. And if a novice shows up, clicking on a tier list shouldn't be a "mistake." If anything, it would help a bit, but they'd probably go "Oh, that's a bit more complicated than I'm looking for, I'll check out another thread," and leave. I don't think a person completely new to the FE fanbase would go "Wtf is Nino doing at the bottom of the tier list? RAISE HER!" and cause a bunch of problems, nor do I think they'll be making "fools" of themselves for thinking it's something else, because what else would a topic listing every character in the game from top to bottom labeled "Tier list" be for? A popularity contest? If they make a reply without knowing it's a tier list, we won't flame them, we'll just kindly tell them the point of the topic and move on. We're nice people, you know. (Well, most of us)

That ended being a lot longer than I originally planned.

One more thing. I've looked at what you "have to say" already. I know what you're saying because I've been there. Thing is, this isn't like last time. This time it popped up out of nowhere, and you yourself said you didn't realize there was a problem until today. So I ask this of you: What have we done wrong to you or anyone else outside of this topic?

Edited July 21, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Kedyns Crow]

And I haven't a clue why either. :\

edit:***Sarcasm warning ****

I guess some of us aren't blessed with you guys' intelligence. Hell, when I first saw tiers I was like, "what the hell are those." And curiosity and a lack of explanation on the opening of the topic caused me to... CLICK! I know, I know. How embarrassing! My curiosity then turned to confusion, because units I knew had crappy growth rates (Jeigans) where higher than units that I knew had massive ones (Ests). I knew there was more to tiers, however, and I put the pieces together to realize that these were were based on statistics my math-loathing brain could not comprehend. I will say that in the moments of reading through posts trying to figure out what tiers were, I was very tempted to post on the topic and say who I liked using. I'm glad I never did. I'm sure plenty of people have made the mistake I didn't though... and post in a topic they didn't understand.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Kedyns Crow

[NoNameAtAll]

I guess some of us aren't blessed with you guys' intelligence. Hell, when I first saw tiers I was like, "what the hell are those." And curiosity and a lack of explanation on the opening of the topic caused me to... CLICK! I know, I know. How embarrassing! My curiosity then turned to confusion, because units I knew had crappy growth rates (Jeigans) where higher than units that I knew had massive ones (Ests). I knew there was more to tiers, however, and I put the pieces together to realize that these were were based on statistics my math-loathing brain could not comprehend. I will say that in the moments of reading through posts trying to figure out what tiers were, I was very tempted to post on the topic and say who I liked using. I'm glad I never did. I'm sure plenty of people have made the mistake I didn't though... and post in a topic they didn't understand.

I didn't understand it either upon reading it. That's why I wouldn't post initially until one understands just how it's all done.

And it's not just stats. There's a LOT of factors involved in it. Stats, utility, availability, etc. It took me time to understand but I figured it out.

If you had said who you liked using, you'd likely be told that the topic isn't about that.

Also, your sarcasm was unnecessary and makes you sound arrogant. I don't think that's what you intend, but I'm getting the feeling of arrogance.

Edited July 21, 2009 by NoNameAtAll

[Kedyns Crow]

You're suggesting we make a whole new subforum for about 10 topics in total, and that would make things more organized? No, all that would do is segregate us like America used to do with African Americans. "Debaters go here, other people go here." For the third time, a tier thread is one thread per board (a few more in the NES/SNES Era board). If anything, just pinning it would make it more organized, but I'm not going to go that far. And if a novice shows up, clicking on a tier list shouldn't be a "mistake." If anything, it would help a bit, but they'd probably go "Oh, that's a bit more complicated than I'm looking for, I'll check out another thread," and leave. I don't think a person completely new to the FE fanbase would go "Wtf is Nino doing at the bottom of the tier list? RAISE HER!" and cause a bunch of problems, nor do I think they'll be making "fools" of themselves for thinking it's something else, because what else would a topic listing every character in the game from top to bottom labeled "Tier list" be for? A popularity contest? If they make a reply without knowing it's a tier list, we won't flame them, we'll just kindly tell them the point of the topic and move on. We're nice people, you know. (Well, most of us)

That ended being a lot longer than I originally planned.

One more thing. I've looked at what you "have to say" already. I know what you're saying because I've been there. Thing is, this isn't like last time. This time it popped up out of nowhere, and you yourself said you didn't realize there was a problem until today. So I ask this of you: What have we done wrong to you or anyone else outside of this topic?

Okay first, when I mentioned the word segregation I assumed you would take it as its meaning of separation and not as an allusion to America and African Americans. Organizing forums better will not cause segregation of people, only segregation of topics. It will just make things easier for everyone. Separation is not always a bad thing. It was bad when dealing with people, but dealing with topics is a completely different matter. We're talking about subjects, which do usually work better separated. If you go to a bookstore, and browse through books, do you get upset because all of the History books are in one part, and all of the Magazines are in another? Please do not base a statement propped up completely by a logical fallacy. Being a tier enthusiast, I assume you like math. Let me put it this way, just because A(separation) + B(Blacks and Whites)= C(Bad), doesn't mean A(separation) + D(Tier Lists and casual FE discussion)= C(Bad).

To answer your question though, absolutely nothing. Which is why the only suggestions I'm making are referring to this topic.

[Rodykitty]

Fun fact: There hasn't been any tier related problems for awhile until Superbus made this thread. We were actually on the verge of solving these issues until they were magically re-created again.

[Vykan12]

I'm starting to think we should make a readme/faq to put at the beginning of all tier topics.

[Kedyns Crow]

I'm starting to think we should make a readme/faq to put at the beginning of all tier topics.

Haha, that would be pretty damn funny. I'm not going to attempt to push that one through.

[Florete]

To answer your question though, absolutely nothing.

Then why are we still talking? If that's truly your answer, there's no reason for this topic to exist.

Fun fact: There hasn't been any tier related problems for awhile until Superbus made this thread. We were actually on the verge of solving these issues until they were magically re-created again.

The problems pretty were solved, I'd say. No one was complaining, anyway.

I'm starting to think we should make a readme/faq to put at the beginning of all tier topics.

That might be a good idea.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm starting to think we should make a readme/faq to put at the beginning of all tier topics.

I like it. It won't change how some people will not read the warning and just look at the list and then try to move up a character they like without any reasoning, but at least it lets us say "we warned you".

[Kedyns Crow]

That might be a good idea.

Can I pretty please pretend like those words were directed towards me?

[Rodykitty]

I already used to have guidelines on my H5 tier list topic, but it all got lost in time travel.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I forgot how shitty Debaters sometimes are at defending debating... :(

[Fia]

Oh my... I can't believe that this thread will live this long. >_>;

It seems that I can't resist to post in here too, even though my point will be an old one.

I dislike arguing. I dislike debates. And therefore I dislike tiers too. (Since I am a lolabuser and have a shitty debate skill).

So what did I do? Ignore them, simple.

And yes, this post isn't important at all. Feel free to ignore it. >_>;

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Opinions are not sacroscant nor do they always have flawless logic to justify crying like a girl when a counterpoint is simply presented. Of course, when people are indoctrinated into 'not hurting other people's feelings' at all costs, you get stupid crap like this. It also doesn't help when one confuses asserting fact with stating an opinion.

As for Prince Levin, he obviously could not seperate his love for Azel, among other things which I have not seen, from the actual usefulness of him when playing for efficiency or ranks in the FE4 threads and has resorted sophistic attacks("Giant egos and hostility") to get payback.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Cephas

[-Cynthia-]

Oh my... I can't believe that this thread will live this long. >_>;

It seems that I can't resist to post in here too, even though my point will be an old one.

I dislike arguing. I dislike debates. And therefore I dislike tiers too. (Since I am a lolabuser and have a shitty debate skill).

So what did I do? Ignore them, simple.

And yes, this post isn't important at all. Feel free to ignore it. >_>;

I actually think this post is pretty important, it shows what people who don't like tier lists do-- they ignore them, which seems to be the most obvious solution to some people liking them and some not.

Edited July 21, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Kedyns Crow]

I actually think this post is pretty important, it shows what people who don't like tier lists do-- they ignore them, which seems to be the most obvious solution to some people liking them and some not.

I think Vykan made an excellent topic about exactly what Tier lists are. As far as I'm concerned, that's an improvement and I'm happy. I will now fall back in line and ignore anything to do with Tier lists, just like I've done my entire time here.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Kedyns Crow

[Camus The Dark Knight]

Maybe older members remember the rant I had about tiers being stupid. Regardless of that, Bus summed up my thoughts, only better written.

[Prince Levin]

1. For putting tier lists in their own subforum, they could be added to the Debate subforum since tier threads are all about arguing. However it doesn't really matter, as long as character efficiency and tier discussions stay in their respective threads...which they often do not. Notice how in this very thread tier discussion started about Sothe, Dart (page 2). Stop invading threads.

2. It seems my comments here have been taken as a personal attack to some of the tierists, or a revenge of sorts...lol. I'm simply stating my opinion about the matter at hand and have been personally attacked about it. This is the hostility I'm talking about.

3. In my experiments on these threads I've found that discussions are rarely calm and friendly. Instead of just responding to the points of a post about this character or that, there is often times an offensive judgement on the person him or herself as well. Egos and hostility abound. Perhaps the repressed anger of some tierists about RL is released in these threads, and insecurities lead to narcissism and trying to put oneself above others.

[NoNameAtAll]

2. It seems my comments here have been taken as a personal attack to some of the tierists, or a revenge of sorts...lol. I'm simply stating my opinion about the matter at hand and have been personally attacked about it. This is the hostility I'm talking about.

I see no personal attacks toward you.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

3. In my experiments on these threads I've found that discussions are rarely calm and friendly. Instead of just responding to the points of a post about this character or that, there is often times an offensive judgement on the person him or herself as well.

This I've seen from you. Lucky the "time warp" deleted it. I'm not buying that your attempts at a tier discussion were "experiments" as you say. You seem more like a butthurt fanboy who just can't get over how others disagreed with your arguments.

I remember one time you told someone to go look at stats before they argue... he did, you pretty much sunk yourself with that comment as it was proven that you didn't.

Egos and hostility abound. Perhaps the repressed anger of some tierists about RL is released in these threads, and insecurities lead to narcissism and trying to put oneself above others.

I like how this is false, addresses nothing in this discussion and it's just Ad hominen

At this point, silence is golden for you. You're kinda flame baiting with stuff like this.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Sirius