FE9 Tier List v2

[grandjackal]

I brought up Ranulf>Tormod originally.

I'd say that the effort to get him to be generally Ranulf's equal is just not worth it in comparison.

[Zkirsche]

I brought up Ranulf>Tormod originally.

I'd say that the effort to get him to be generally Ranulf's equal is just not worth it in comparison.

What effort? I've already shown how he can easily get 1.5 levels without bexp.

[Vykan12]

He's referring to Tormod's joining time performance, not his exp gain.

[Zkirsche]

He's referring to Tormod's joining time performance, not his exp gain.

Really? It sounds more like he's saying that it is too hard to get Tormod to Ranulf's superier when it isn't hard at all.

Besides, at join time, Tormod is still 2RKO'ing without any resources at all, give him a seraph robe and some enemies only 3RKO him.

Edited August 6, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

It really depends on you definition of superior. Ranulf's defensive leads are a lot bigger than Tormod's offensive leads statistically.

Realize, if we start giving Tomrod a Seraph Robe this comparison is becoming a bit ridiculous. We've given Tormod forges, a favorable support set (Devdan+ Calill both in play is questionable),band usage, and now a Seraph Robe. We haven't given Ranulf anything to compensate.

[Zkirsche]

It really depends on you definition of superior. Ranulf's defensive leads are a lot bigger than Tormod's offensive leads statistically.

Realize, if we start giving Tomrod a Seraph Robe this comparison is becoming a bit ridiculous. We've given Tormod forges, a favorable support set (Devdan+ Calill both in play is questionable),band usage, and now a Seraph Robe. We haven't given Ranulf anything to compensate.

I *did* give Ranulf teh Demi band. But since you took that away from him, it's almost pathetically easy for Tormod to win. Cause now, Ranulf can only fight for ~4 turns each chapter. So we could give him anything and his main problem isn't solved.

Forges are easy to give people. Reyson can easily support Tormod instead of either of those units. Band usage is small, and I include that for every character anyway. Seraph robe I'll give you. Remember Tormod has more time to be given these resources than Ranulf too and it isn't ridiculous in the slightest.

[-Cynthia-]

I *did* give Ranulf teh Demi band. But since you took that away from him, it's almost pathetically easy for Tormod to win. Cause now, Ranulf can only fight for ~4 turns each chapter. So we could give him anything and his main problem isn't solved.

Forges are easy to give people. Reyson can easily support Tormod instead of either of those units. Band usage is small, and I include that for every character anyway. Seraph robe I'll give you. Remember Tormod has more time to be given these resources than Ranulf too and it isn't ridiculous in the slightest.

I'm saying that we can give Ranulf the Demi Band after he transforms normally, which means he'll spend most of the chapter fully transformed, the last few Demi banded, and the first 1-2 untansformed.

Tormod is going to have trouble staying in Reyson's range, there's a pretty big Mov gap there (also a 2 Mov one with Calill), and due to Reyson being Reyson, he'll probably be behind most of our units(he Vigors them, they move on), including Tormod. The Seraph Robe is really pushing the favoritism limits though, I'm not seeing why we're entitling Tormod to stat boosters and Ranulf not.

[Zkirsche]

I'm saying that we can give Ranulf the Demi Band after he transforms normally, which means he'll spend most of the chapter fully transformed, the last few Demi banded, and the first 1-2 untansformed.

.

I've already shown how this is inefficient though. It puts another great unit at 0 gauge, which is arguably equal to a seraph robe, if not more as we're not losing a whole unit on a seraph robe.

Tormod is going to have trouble staying in Reyson's range, there's a pretty big Mov gap there (also a 2 Mov one with Calill), and due to Reyson being Reyson, he'll probably be behind most of our units(he Vigors them, they move on), including Tormod. The Seraph Robe is really pushing the favoritism limits though, I'm not seeing why we're entitling Tormod to stat boosters and Ranulf not.

Tormod only needs to move 7 spaces. And with the way you seem to play, Reyson would barely be used at all (Which is why I think Ike > reyson. But noone has any arguments against it). But, whatever, I'll give Ranulf Lethe, at least. And really, that's all he's likely to get.

Edited August 6, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Ehh, I could go either way on Ranulf/Tormod atm, because staves really are pretty handy, and unlike Largo, Ranulf doesn't beat him as cleanly across the board.

Hmm, I'm not sure if Geoffrey> Brom. Geoffrey is better for the 4 chapters (Ch25 doesn't count) that they share, because he's essentially Brom with a pony,though they'll have similar combat parameters if Brom get enough KW uses(I think Brom hits a little harder and is a tad more durable). However, Brom's the better supporter and it's questionable whether Brom amasses enough positive utility before Geoffrey shows up to give him the win, Geoffrey's hard to tier.

[Vykan12]

Giving Ranulf the demi-band right after he reverts is a pretty tall order if he isn't the only laguz in play. Some people like to assume only 1 laguz is in play because of this, but I don't necessarily buy that.

Btw Kirsche, where are you getting transformation only lasts 4 turns? The length of a chapter is variable, as is how many enemies Ranulf faces in either state.

[grandjackal]

I can say Geoff is < Brom.

Basically it's how you measure them. Geoff's got 4 chapters, but one of them is the mountain where both suck. Reduce it to 3. Geoff does indeed have 2, but Endgame...

Let's compare a 20/15 Brom to a level 20 Geoff.

Brom, A Boyd, B whoever the fuck, most likely Zihark with Knight Ward. Basically, hte numbers kirsche used.

50 HP, 24+4 Str, 24 Skill, 21 Speed, 9 Luck, 32 Def, 13 Res

Geoff, A Calill with Knight Ward

48 HP, 22+3 Str, 21 Skill, enough speed to matter,Geoff doesn't need much KW to double reliably endgame, 13 Luck, 27 Def, 15 Res

Both get avoid.

Geoff will have an offense advantage, no argument there. However, do keep in mind that most of these enemies in endgame are paladins, of which cane canto in and out to smack you over and over. Having a tank around to take shots to bring them to you (since it's not like you're rushing anyways) would be nice. Which case, Brom has a nice 2 HP and 5 Def advantage. If Geoff's winning, it's not a total blow-out at least. Defensively anyways.

However, Brom's been doing pretty well for himself up until then, and giving great boosts to people who would love water. I'd say he's been netting up positive for a good while, despite move problems.

I think Brom could go in mid methinks.

EDIT: Whoop, already in mid the both of them.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Vykan12]

By the stats you posted, Geoff is getting 7RKOed by tigers. It's safe to say movement > durability since both units can take so many hits. So basically, the entire argument hinges on Brom's availability, which I at least am comfortable with.

[grandjackal]

...Man, the enemies in this game suck ;;>> At least it would mean that Brom would be nigh invincible.

[-Cynthia-]

When I said 4 chapters I took off Ch25, Geoff's available for C25 through Endgame (5 chapters).

Obviously Geoff's better when he's around, but Geoff beats like everyone not in High for the time he's around,it really depends on how good Brom is for the 16 or so chapters he's around when Geoff isn't and he's pretty good IMO, at least once the KW shows up.

I guess I could do an analysis of Brom's pre-Geoffrey chapters, but I'm not really in the mood to unless someone wants to argue Geoff>Brom.

Edited August 7, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

16 chapters is a lot. Brom's bound to be consistently doubling for at least half that time provided we give him decent KW exposure.

[grandjackal]

16 chapters is a lot. Brom's bound to be consistently doubling for at least half that time provided we give him decent KW exposure.

Especially considering he's the only one who cares for hte KW to get speed, and that the +2 for def and res makes him just that much more durable.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

I'm definitely going to disagree with the first part of that, Gatrie and Devdan say hi. Astrid and Makalov want to be doubling sooner rather than later, and if any of the other paldadins are speed screwed they'll want it as well.

However, Brom doesn't need that much KW, so it's probably OK.

[Zkirsche]

I said ~ 4 turns, which is saying that it can vary, but because Ranulf only needs to fight 2 enemies per turn to actually untransform during his 4th turn of being transformed, that a chapter usually lasts for ~10 turns and Ranulf transforms on turn 3, that means that after transforming and facing 2 enemies per to turn, Ranulf would untransform on turn 7, and only re-tranform on turn 12. Any enemies he combats to decrease the wait reduces his efficiency, so overall, it's probably only around 4 turns of efficient play with Ranulf.

I agree with Brom > Geoff, his availability lead is astounding, and I've already shown how Brom is ORKO'ing quite conisistently from chapter 20 onwards.

[Progenitus]

Post-promotion Brom with KW is almost like a second Boyd, but with more durability.

20/3 Boyd

47.5 HP, 21 str, 2 mag, 16 skl, 16 spd, 11 lck, 12 def, 7 res

20/1 Brom, 9 levels with KW

40 HP, 18.4 str, 4.2 mag, 17 skl, 14.7 spd, 6.4 lck, 20.6 def, 8 res

Boyd gets 2 def from supports and more overkill str, Brom gets more overkill def and some points in str.

Also, with KW, Brom has a 55% spd growth, while Boyd has 45%. Which means Brom with 7/10 levels with the KW will gain about the same spd over 10 levels, as Boyd in a flat 10 levels, and the more levels he gets with the KW (or closes that level gap), the more the spd lead will shrink.

So basically 1 spd + 1 move vs a lot of def (admittedly Boyd's pretty durable himself, but he's not invincible like Brom).

Not too shabby if you ask me.

Of course Boyd >>> Brom overall, but that's not the point. We all know Boyd's a monster, and Brom is pretty much Boyd #2 with more durability post promotion (and he's not *that* bad before promotion. Hard to say 13 base def is bad. I would say he's about neutral utility before promotion, though requiring the KW would drop him a bit).

Brom should really be at least upper mid. Requiring the KW should not result in a 3 tier gap between Boyd and Brom. If that isn't satisfactory, I can later make a comparison between him and someone in upper mid (probably Zihark).

Speaking of which, I wonder about Gatrie... I suppose it's harder to argue him up, since the more w1n tanking he tries to do in early chapters, the more levels he gains, which is fewer levels he can get the KW, and he can't really afford that when he starts 1 level higher than Brom, with 2 spd less, which just hurts his performance when he rejoins (and later promotes). If he gets 3 levels in earlygame chapters, and then rejoins and gets 8 levels with KW, he has 12.15 spd at 20/1, which is a bit slow.

[Vykan12]

Brom above Geoffrey for now. TBH honest I can see him moving above Zihark since the only major advantage he has on him is superior doubling. Hell, Zihark's outgoing supports aren't even that special; Muarim and Brom are very durable to begin with, and Ilyana's durability is heavily based on never seeing enemy attacks.

[grandjackal]

That pretty much sums up my problems with Gatrie. His speed is unfixable. Granted, endgame Brom won't be doubling, which case Gatrie beats him in just about every other stat by a fair margin save Defense, where he wins by just one. Gatrie's problem then is supports, as his either suck, or have a major move difference. Brom with 2 Bs gives Brom a defense lead, where Gatrie then will only have 4 HP to compensate. Defensively, they're incredibly similar durably and the only difference then is 3 STR (where let's say Brom is supporting Boyd and Zihark, Brom will actually have a 1 point offense lead), and 2 luck.

Basically Gatrie is Brom without the doubling and still being inferior to him when built up anyways.

Yeah, I could see Brom in upper mid too, though the argument against the staffers might be iffy. I suppose saying Brom rarely ever needs healing would help. He's got a move difference, if it takes him a while to get to another battle and he's injured, he can just down a vulnery. Not like he'd be doing anything else.

Though now thinking about it, we're gonna usually have at least 1 mounted person around. Transporting an armor knight shouldn't be that much a problem. Which case, I could actually see Gatrie getting Marcia and Astrid as usable, as they could ride him to the front lines. However, the only real payoff would be giving these two defense where they otherwise would have problems finding it (and we'd love giving these two more defense, ya?), and that it would mean he would tie Brom offensively endgame while being defensively better. Of course if we bring Shinon, Gatrie will actually spank Brom defensively, and by endgame I could imagine Shinon pulling his weight with the good ol' thunder and lightning combo.

In fact, Shinon and Illyana combo would make him damn near invincible endgame.

Semantics I suppose.

Though if Gatrie is used, Lessee Illyana...

Gatrie and Mordy combo (A Gat, B Mordy), she would get a whopping +5 Def, +18 Acc, and +1 Atk. Uhhh...This could help greatly prior to endgame.

To compare to Calill...

Illyana, C Gatrie, B Mordy. 10/10 I suppose, could be greater since staffs are involved.

30.3 HP, 6.5 Str, 16+1 Mag, 18.3 Skill, 15.2 Speed, 12.3 Luck, 7.1+3 Def, 19+3 Res

Calill Base

32 HP, 8 Str, 19 Mag, 18 Skill, 18 Speed, 16 Luck, 8 Def, 17 Res

Calill has the offense advantage, but 18 AS doubles 8 enemies 15 AS wouldn't. Not exactly a lot. Do remember however that while she has an offense advantage, Illyana has staffs while Calill brought knives to this fight.

Defensively, it's 2 Def vs 2 HP. Gatrie support will go up by 1 in like the next chapter. It's enough to give Illyana the ability to be 4RKOd by 20 ATK units where Calill would otherwise be killed. This includes...3 units on the map. I suppose Calill's offense leads would matter then ;;>>

I would measure the growths...but for some reason, Calill has better growth in durability both HP and Def.

I suppose though there's no reason not to give Illyana something like a speed band or a defense band. With a speed band, she'd gain speed every 3-2 levels rather than ever 4-3 levels, and with a defense band she'd gain defense every 5 levels rather than every 7-6.

With a band, she would arrive at 10/10 with the same defense before supports as Calill, and with the speed band, 10/11 she'd only have 1 less speed than Calill

I suppose Illyana would want the Knight Band the most for the STR and DEF boost, as STR would indirectly help her AS, and she would have 1 point of strength and defense profit by 10/10. In fact, it would be a point by 10/3. By 10/11, she'd have the same Str and Def as Calill. 11 STR by 10/20.

Basically with band help, she can be around equal to Calill, but Illyana will have staffs.

By the time Illyana hits level 10/14, Calill's 18 speed is doubling very little that 16 AS would. Illyana's defense will rise even more though as the Gat support builds.

BB Gat and Mordy with knight band, she'd have 12 defense by 10/14. Basically, mages can't hurt Illyana, and the strongest units on chapter 22 are 3RKOing, which is like 3 on the map. Rest are 4RKOing, and in the case of archers, they are 6RKOing at best.

However, by chapter 13, she'll have a C with Mordy. Let's check her performance there. Let's give her 5 Knight Band levels, since her joining chapter she'd do little if anything.

22.25 HP, 2.4 Str, 10.5 Mag, 12.25 Skill, 10.5 Speed, 8.25 Luck, 4+1 Def, 12+1 Res.

Let's check chapter 13.

2x Soldier lv 10 (iron lance)

27 hp, 14 atk, 7 AS, 100 hit, 16 avo, 7 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

1x Soldier lv 12 (iron lance)

29 hp, 15 atk, 8 AS, 103 hit, 19 avo, 9 def, 4 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

1x Soldier lv 13 (javelin)

30 hp, 15 atk, 8 AS, 83 hit, 19 avo, 9 def, 4 res, 5 crit, 3 cev -3RKO.

1x Archer lv 10 (iron bow)

24 hp, 12 atk, 8 AS, 109 hit, 18 avo, 7 def, 4 res, 5 crit, 2 cev

1x Archer lv 11 (steel bow)

24 hp, 16 atk, 6 AS, 97 hit, 15 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Archer lv 12 (steel bow)

25 hp, 16 atk, 7 AS, 97 hit, 17 avo, 9 def, 4 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Archer lv 15 (steel bow) -3-4RKO

Myrmidons with iron 3RKO her.

1x Mage lv 11 (fire)

22 hp, 13 atk, 8 AS, 111 hit, 18 avo, 5 def, 10 res, 3 crit, 2 cev

1x Mage lv 11 (thunder)

22 hp, 14 atk, 8 AS, 101 hit, 18 avo, 5 def, 11 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Mage lv 13 (thunder)

24 hp, 15 atk, 8 AS, 103 hit, 18 avo, 5 def, 11 res, 9 crit, 2 cev -Invincible to first, can be invincible to the second with the right weapon, 11-22RKO the last.

Soren can't hope to have this kind of durability unless he nabs Ike for dodge, who might care more about other supporters. Sure, 3RKO isn't good, but it's better than constant 2RKO.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Brom above Geoffrey for now. TBH honest I can see him moving above Zihark since the only major advantage he has on him is superior doubling. Hell, Zihark's outgoing supports aren't even that special; Muarim and Brom are very durable to begin with, and Ilyana's durability is heavily based on never seeing enemy attacks.

Superior doubling is pretty important though. Remember that while Brom doubles fairly well post promotion, his doubling issues are fairly severe before that, Zihark has a pretty clear offensive lead for a while that Brom really never catches up to (Brom has more Atk, but Zihark has Adept+ Crit and still doubles some stuff Brom doesn't).

I'm not really sure Gatrie should move because he's pretty inferior to Devdan in every way. We could argue that he's <Haar too, but he's losing to Haar for less chapters, Haar has doubling issues of his own (not KW fixable) and Gatrie has a useful earlygame, it's pretty much just Haar's Mov lead against everything else. The only place I might see Gatrie move is to the bottom of Mid.

[Vykan12]

has a pretty clear offensive lead for a while that Brom really never catches up to

I'd say he does. Better weapon type, much higher strength and 1-2 range > chance stuff (ie crit kills, adept). Brom's also giving out +5 atk while Zihark isn't giving out any unless he supports Brom, but that obviously helps both characters.

[grandjackal]

Superior doubling is pretty important though. Remember that while Brom doubles fairly well post promotion, his doubling issues are fairly severe before that, Zihark has a pretty clear offensive lead for a while that Brom really never catches up to (Brom has more Atk, but Zihark has Adept+ Crit and still doubles some stuff Brom doesn't).

I'm not really sure Gatrie should move because he's pretty inferior to Devdan in every way. We could argue that he's <Haar too, but he's losing to Haar for less chapters, Haar has doubling issues of his own (not KW fixable) and Gatrie has a useful earlygame, it's pretty much just Haar's Mov lead against everything else. The only place I might see Gatrie move is to the bottom of Mid.

Brom also has the factor that he's never dying unless you try to on purpose, Zihark doesn't start as a tank. All Brom needs is some KW use, while Zihark would need supports, meaning playing specific characters. Brom has stand-alone factor.

As for Gatling Cannon, I think it really depends on his supports. He might not ever have an offensive lead, but dammit will he be hard as balls to kill. If he can noticeably help people be more durable, his existence means something. Illyana, as I point out above, might actually gain something out of it.

In fact, I miscalculated those numbers. By chapter 15, she'll have +2 Def and +1 offense, by 17 she'll have +3 Def, thanks to Gat. Thanks to Gat, she could actually pull a durability lead (+staffs) ahead of Calill. Chapter after she joins, turns to +4, Gatrie on the end of +2.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

I'd say he does. Better weapon type, much higher strength and 1-2 range > chance stuff (ie crit kills, adept). Brom's also giving out +5 atk while Zihark isn't giving out any unless he supports Brom, but that obviously helps both characters.

Ture I guess, though there are still enemies Brom has trouble doubling, like Cats, so Zihark's pulling a pretty big lead on these/SMs/Dragons. Eh, I can see Brom>Zihark though.

@PrettyBoiWolf I think Gatrie's support with Ilyana has already been considered, it's nice I guess, but it's his only decent support. Marcia and Astrid have big Mov differences and the bonuses and fairly poor and Shinon isn't very good.