FE9 Tier List v2

[grandjackal]

@PrettyBoiWolf I think Gatrie's support with Ilyana has already been considered, it's nice I guess, but it's his only decent support. Marcia and Astrid have big Mov differences and the bonuses and fairly poor and Shinon isn't very good.

Shinon and Illyana can give him +5 Defense, which makes him virtually invincible (the 36 AS swordmaster with 26 AS can't even hurt him), he'd be king tank.

But as for Marcia and Astrid, I have lately been thinking about armor knights and transportation. Who better to tote around on a mount and plop in front of you as a shield than an armor knight? Dodge is great, but not dying anyways is even better. It would help the cavaliers move even further, as they could virtually ignore the first wave of the enemy. So the only problem I would actually see with this is if Gatrie's too big to rescue and transport like that.

[-Cynthia-]

Shinon and Illyana can give him +5 Defense, which makes him virtually invincible (the 36 AS swordmaster with 26 AS can't even hurt him), he'd be king tank.

But as for Marcia and Astrid, I have lately been thinking about armor knights and transportation. Who better to tote around on a mount and plop in front of you as a shield than an armor knight? Dodge is great, but not dying anyways is even better. It would help the cavaliers move even further, as they could virtually ignore the first wave of the enemy. So the only problem I would actually see with this is if Gatrie's too big to rescue and transport like that.

Yes, Gatrie's durability is good, it's just that it's generally overkill here in PoR, there are a lot of characters less durable, but we don't really care since their chances of death are so low.

This kind of ties in to your second point, mounted units generally don't mind taking on enemies themselves, so carting Gatrie around doesn't help that much, they're not moving further certainly. It's certainly a possibility to make up for his low Mov, but then we have to take into account that Gatrie's offense is not that wonderful, if he isn't doubling (which happens a lot) or using a Brave he's only 2RKOing.

[Vykan12]

The problem is Zihark might be 2RKOing some of those enemies anyway, so the lead isn't really that significant.

20/7 Zihark (A whatever, B Brom, silver sword): 32 atk

20/7 Brom (B Boyd, B Zihark, silver lance): 39 atk

Short spear: 33 atk

Some chapter 24 enemies:

1x Warrior lv 6 (silver axe)

47 hp, 33 atk, 13 AS, 99 hit, 31 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

Zihark does 89% damage.

1x Paladin lv 7 (silver sword)

37 hp, 28 atk, 17 AS, 107 hit, 39 avo, 16 def, 11 res, 5 crit, 5 cev

Zihark does 86% damage.

1x Wyvern Lord lv 5 (silver lance)

37 hp, 32 atk, 11 AS, 107 hit, 26 avo, 18 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 4 cev

Zihark does 70% damage. Brom admittedly falls 1 damage short though.

I have to run, but the point is, Zihark is way more forge dependent than Brom is, and Brom can beat his atk using hand weapons (eg/ forged silver vs forged javelins).

[grandjackal]

Yes, Gatrie's durability is good, it's just that it's generally overkill here in PoR, there are a lot of characters less durable, but we don't really care since their chances of death are so low.

This kind of ties in to your second point, mounted units generally don't mind taking on enemies themselves, so carting Gatrie around doesn't help that much, they're not moving further certainly. It's certainly a possibility to make up for his low Mov, but then we have to take into account that Gatrie's offense is not that wonderful, if he isn't doubling (which happens a lot) or using a Brave he's only 2RKOing.

First point is granted, but it's hard to ignore someone who's being invincible endgame, especially since there's no reason to go on the offensive on that chapter. Ashnard comes to you, and so does his mass of canto-ing paladins.

However for this next one, it works like this.

Basically, they'd be bringing their support partner, which helps them be better at the point of the drop. This helps them be better on that turn. They focus on the armors, which is less risk than your paladins (as tough as they may or may not be). Fresh and healthy, the mobile force can power ahead while the armors bash around the midline. By the time the foot soldiers catch up, they got plenty of weakened scrubs left to pick off with ease. Paladins will be taking care of the back, armors the mid and footsoldiers the front. 3 Pronged offensive.

Well, in all honesty, it's much more effective in FE6 where the enemies aren't such garbage...

[-Cynthia-]

He ORKOs SMs obviously, and has a good chance of landing Adept/Crit on a cat or dragon. With a forge, Zihark wins, without Brom wins so they're pretty evenly matched once Brom hits post promo. Zihark wins pre promotion offense, though he isn't especially durable either so Brom's durability leads then are more important.

It's questionable. I'd definitely go for Brom>Stefan at least, since Stefan never becomes very durable and is only beating Brom significantly in offense for a short amount of time (the amount of time between Stefan joining and Brom promotiong is ~ 3 chapters give or take). The only character between them is Mordecai, who beats Brom pretty badly through quite a few chapters despite gauge issues. Brom pulls ahead in offense eventually, although Speedwing!Mordecai reaches similar values as Knight Ward!Brom and Mordecai's always going to have a 3 Mov lead and Smite.

Edited August 7, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I can see Brom > Zihark. Remember that Brom has better 1-2 ranged options than Zihark as well.

Nvm, Cynthia's post explained it to me.

Edited August 7, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

I think it was decided that Lethe's Atk issues are more severe than Mordy's AS issues because it's easier to jusify a Speedwing on Mordy than an Energy Drop on Lethe.

Plus, Mordy provides better supports, has Smite, and is more durable. It gives Mordy more margin for error in his offensive deficit with Stefan than Lethe has.

[grandjackal]

I don't see how an energy drop would be hard to justify to Lethe at all. Only other people who'd want it are like Mia...and that's it.

Speedwings, there's Brom, Haar, Gatrie (he'd basically be Brom, but better), anyone with a slow start (Devden).

[Tino]

How about all those people who aren't ORKOing all the time? They definitely would like a 2 str boost. And that means I'm talking about, oh, nearly everyone?

[Zkirsche]

Does anyone actually oppose brom > Zihark?

[Vykan12]

Seems nobody is. The move has been made.

[grandjackal]

Now it comes down to Brom vs Nephenee. I guess it would come down to the question of who has a better start?

[Dat Nick]

Obviously Brom since Neph's only win (spd) Isn't enough to double.

[grandjackal]

Lessee...

Brom wins by 6 HP, 2 Str, and 4 Def, while Neph wins 1 Skill, 4 Speed, 2 Luck, 1 Res.

If it's not enough to double, I guess Brom's winning then.

I also recall most of Neph's supports taking a long while to show themselves. Brom's are nigh immediate, and pretty damn awesome as well. On top of that, Water>>>>>>>Wind.

There will be a period where she will double and he won't, but once he starts doubling, he has the higher ground on might. Neph has natural Wrath though...

I could say it's pretty close.

[-Cynthia-]

Lessee...

Brom wins by 6 HP, 2 Str, and 4 Def, while Neph wins 1 Skill, 4 Speed, 2 Luck, 1 Res.

If it's not enough to double, I guess Brom's winning then.

I also recall most of Neph's supports taking a long while to show themselves. Brom's are nigh immediate, and pretty damn awesome as well. On top of that, Water>>>>>>>Wind.

There will be a period where she will double and he won't, but once he starts doubling, he has the higher ground on might. Neph has natural Wrath though...

I could say it's pretty close.

4 Spd is a pretty big lead, basically it means Neph can actually double stuff before promotion, Brom can't, which means her damage output is a lot higher. He does have a durability lead, but Nephenee's durability before promoting isn't bad, assuming some minimal BEXP usage.

Err, well Neph/Brom is obviously going to take the same amount of time for both. Brom does have early Boyd and Zihark supports, although both of these can get similar boosts from elsewhere (Muarim/Ilyana and Mist/Titania). Nephenee supports Devdan and Calill, both of these people lack better options, so supports are pretty close.

Brom hits a little harder, but even after promotion he'll still have some doubling issues (SMs, Cats, Dragons, bosses), Nephenee won't, which pretty much makes up for Brom's Atk lead IMO. Plus Wrath, which easily combines with a Vantage no one else really wants.

It is close, but Nephenee's doubling lead before they promote make her the winner IMO, plus she doesn't require KW usage as much.

As for the question if Neph doubles, if we give her 3 levels of BEXP she doubles 23 of Ch11's 29 non-vigilante enemies. Brom with 3 levels of BEXP(which costs more mind you, since Brom is level 8, Neph is level 7) doubles 6/29 enemies, big difference.

Edited August 9, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Lessee...

Brom wins by 6 HP, 2 Str, and 4 Def, while Neph wins 1 Skill, 4 Speed, 2 Luck, 1 Res.

If it's not enough to double, I guess Brom's winning then.

I also recall most of Neph's supports taking a long while to show themselves. Brom's are nigh immediate, and pretty damn awesome as well. On top of that, Water>>>>>>>Wind.

There will be a period where she will double and he won't, but once he starts doubling, he has the higher ground on might. Neph has natural Wrath though...

I could say it's pretty close.

4 Spd is a pretty big lead, basically it means Neph can actually double stuff before promotion, Brom can't, which means her damage output is a lot higher. He does have a durability lead, but Nephenee's durability before promoting isn't bad, assuming some minimal BEXP usage.

Indeed, but Brom's also got a strength lead and an affinity bonus. She might double, but he might do damage pretty close to it in one shot anyways. Another problem is she has a hold time holding on to anything heavier than iron without being weighed down.

Another note is, how soon is soon? Let's take a look at the chapter after they join.

1x Raven lv 2 (beak, coin)

28 hp, 16 atk, 13 AS, 112 hit, 26 avo, 10 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev

2x Raven lv 4 (beak, arms scroll [d])

30 hp, 18 atk, 15 AS, 115 hit, 31 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 1 cev

2x Raven lv 5 (beak)

31 hp, 18 atk, 16 AS, 115 hit, 33 avo, 11 def, 9 res, 6 crit, 1 cev

Neph's in danger of being doubled herself, especially since the level 5 dickheads. As for defensive, Brom's got 13 Def and 28 HP as opposed to Neph's 22 HP and 9 Def.

This results in Level 1 guys 4RKOing Neph (pretty good), and 5RKOing Brom. Level 4 guys have 4 speed over Neph's 11 base speed, so she gets doubled as well. 2RKO for Neph, 3RKO for Brom. Same deal with the level 5 guys, but they're more garunteed to double her.

1x Raven lv 4 (beak, secret book [d])

30 hp, 17 atk, 15 AS, 114 hit, 30 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 0 cev

Reinforcements are like this. 2RKO for Neph, 4RKO for Brom. Then the boss...

Seeker lv 8 (beak, blue gem [d], demi-band, elixir)

36 hp, 22 atk, 16 AS, 131 hit, 43 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 11 cev- Ouch, he can one round Neph. Brom on the other hand is 2RKOd, and left with 10 HP so he could take a round from reinforcements as well.

On top of that, Brom's packing 2 more STR and doesn't care if he gets weighed down.

Err, well Neph/Brom is obviously going to take the same amount of time for both. Brom does have early Boyd and Zihark supports, although both of these can get similar boosts from elsewhere (Muarim/Ilyana and Mist/Titania). Nephenee supports Devdan and Calill, both of these people lack better options, so supports are pretty close.

Boyd would like to not babysit Mist all day who ALSO has plenty of better options (she'd prefer the defense, offense isn't gonna save her..err...offense any), and Titania has this deal where she's powering ahead and not giving a shit about supporters. Illyana is also pretty mediocre along with not giving Zihark an offense boost on top of it. Brom is the best supporter for his group. Dev and Cal join a bit later, and just generally aren't as good.

Brom hits a little harder, but even after promotion he'll still have some doubling issues (SMs, Cats, Dragons, bosses), Nephenee won't, which pretty much makes up for Brom's Atk lead IMO. Plus Wrath, which easily combines with a Vantage no one else really wants.

Granted, but not only is this still a ways off, this is rather a minority of the enemies. On top of that, Brom's still got a sheer defensive advantage.

It is close, but Nephenee's doubling lead before they promote make her the winner IMO, plus she doesn't require KW usage as much.

I'd think Brom's ability to not die so easily early on would help his case, as it's hard to level when you're dying easy.

As for the question if Neph doubles, if we give her 3 levels of BEXP she doubles 23 of Ch11's 29 non-vigilante enemies. Brom with 3 levels of BEXP(which costs more mind you, since Brom is level 8, Neph is level 7) doubles 6/29 enemies, big difference.

Brom doesn't need BEXP to have his advantages in chapter 11. Might as well save up before investing on him for KW.

[Florete]

I have to go with Nephenee > Brom.

Both start pretty bad offensively and will likely need a forge. Nephenee's base Spd already doubles a lot of enemies, and with just +1 from BEXP, can double a few more as well. Brom only has 2 more Str, so whatever she doubles she likely wins offense against. Brom is definitely more durable, but Nephenee grows out of her defensive hole in a couple chapters.

And then Nephenee always has +1 move and all its advantages. Then there's Wrath, which can make a deadly combo with Vantage. As for supports, Boyd is getting mostly superfluous Str, and Zihark probably doesn't get a whole lot from +1 atk and Def either. Calill at least gets a lot out of +15 avoid. I can't really say Nephenee wins supports, but Brom can't really leverage his affinity too well because he lacks appropriate partners.

[Zkirsche]

Why is Neph at base in Ch12? She joins underlevelled, she can easily have gained 2-3 levels from chapter 11's cexp and some bexp.

Err, well Neph/Brom is obviously going to take the same amount of time for both. Brom does have early Boyd and Zihark supports, although both of these can get similar boosts from elsewhere (Muarim/Ilyana and Mist/Titania). Nephenee supports Devdan and Calill, both of these people lack better options, so supports are pretty close.

Brom is Zihark's sole atk support. Not to mention Brom is Zihark's faster support compared to Muarim, and remember that Boyd/Titania has a 2 mov difference too. Overall, brom is much more liekly to give out better supports than nephenee is of giving worse supports. Brom easily wins supports.

Brom hits a little harder, but even after promotion he'll still have some doubling issues (SMs, Cats, Dragons, bosses), Nephenee won't, which pretty much makes up for Brom's Atk lead IMO. Plus Wrath, which easily combines with a Vantage no one else really wants.

1) true.

2) Zihark/Stefan coudl use it with a crit forge considering their natural crit boost of 15. Haar can use it with cancel. Etcetera. Saying noone wants Vantage is wrong.

It is close, but Nephenee's doubling lead before they promote make her the winner IMO, plus she doesn't require KW usage as much.

I agree with this.

[grandjackal]

Eh. Was worth seeing how close they are, so it seems them being that tight nit seems right for the list.

Other than Lethe under Stefan, I can't seem to find anything wrong with this list currently.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Progenitus]

Geoffrey needs to move up.

I have to go in about five minutes, but doing a quick comparison between him and Zihark...

Their att is about the same when Geof joins (Zihark has att from supports, maybe, but Geof has lances instead of swords. They'll probably have about the same str when Geof joins), but then Geof has a higher growth and levels faster. Geof's spd isn't really an issue. his base is a bit low, but he has a good spd growth and levels quickly and access to KW, so all doubling issues disappear very fast. Zihark has adept and crit though, so meh, Zihark might win by a little.

ON the durability end, Geof has a ton more def, might also win HP/res vs Zihark's avoid. Debatable, I guess.

but then Geof is mounted, and has access to 1-2 range.

Zihark's availability doesn't do much for him either. He's pretty average before promotion (decent offense, below average durability), and then even after he promotes he's not really good until he finishes his supports and gets his avoid up. So he's pretty much neutral utility for a long time. He might be positive after supports finish, whenever that happens (ch 20 or so?). But Geof wins when they both exist.

Geof is far too good to be just mid tier. I'd say, at least below Stefan or Lethe.

[-Cynthia-]

Geoff is a good character, but he's only good for 4 chapters (Ch25 isn't kind on him). Almost everyone is acquiring significant amounts of positive utility before Geoffrey arrives, Rhys for example, has 6 chapters before other healers even show up, he's obviously acquiring a lot of positive utility there, and staff usage is pretty useful past that as well. I'm not seeing how Geoffrey's 4 chapters of being one of the best combat units counteracts this.

I think a lot of it has to with how we define +/- utility, but I would argue that the characters above him all accumulate enough positive utility over their time to outweigh Geoffrey's performance in the last few chapters. Now if we don't weigh availability highly Geoff could go right below Makalov or something, but it's a tough call.

Edited August 10, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

The problem is that not everyone accumulates positive utility over a certain time period. Soren, for example, obviously accumulates negative utility earlygame because he's god awful.

Rhys being better than Geof doesn't necessarily mean Geof shouldn't move up. It could mean that Rhys is also too low. And personally, Rhys should move up too. Being one of two earlygame healers is a lot better than someone like Soren or Ilyana can claim.

[-Cynthia-]

The problem is that not everyone accumulates positive utility over a certain time period. Soren, for example, obviously accumulates negative utility earlygame because he's god awful.

Rhys being better than Geof doesn't necessarily mean Geof shouldn't move up. It could mean that Rhys is also too low. And personally, Rhys should move up too. Being one of two earlygame healers is a lot better than someone like Soren or Ilyana can claim.

Thing is, Soren and Ilyana gain roughly the same healing capabilties as Rhys come Ch11(Master Seal), and they're constantly beating him after that due to more Spd, better Str in Ilyana's case, more durability once supports are considered, and a less horrible weapon type(light is the most expensive, and ties for both the lowest Mt and highest Wt). Yes, Rhys has early utility on them (marganlized on a few maps due to protection needs), but they're beating him if we put Seals on both Rhys or Soren/Ilyana for 20 chapters or so, which is more important IMO.

Comparisons to Rhys aside, Soren and Ilyana are definitely providing a positive benefit once they promote, since healing is useful and they both maintain decent combat. Provding benefits for ~15 chapters before Geoffrey joins is more important than the 4 chapters he beats them for IMO.

You'll find no argument from me that Soren's earlygame isn't very good, but FE9 is different than most FEs in the sense that lower CEXP can be made up with BEXP. We get a ton of it, even in Hard Mode, and it acts like a normal level up so using it on underleveled units is more efficient. So arguably we could just not use Soren in the earlygame and just BEXP him up a few levels come Ch8, thus avoiding his negative utility for the most part except for the BEXP cost incurred.

On a side note, I think I might agree with Pretty Boi Wolf that Gatrie should move up. I'm not really seeing how he's below Devdan.

Gatrie has 3.5 earlygame chapters where's he's pretty damn useful, keep this in mind.

Blah, blah I'll concede Devdan is better before Gatrie promotes, but this is like ~3 chapters, so it's not a big deal.

Now I've given Gatrie 8/11 KW levelups, and 2 KW levelups to Devdan. Stat comparison

20/1 Gatrie

43 HP 21 Str 13 AS 21 Def 6 Res 34 Avo

20/6 Devdan

36 HP 15 Str 14 AS 12 Def 11 Res 45 Avo

Gatrie wins durability, 7 HP and 9! Def> 5 Res and 11 Avo.

Offensively, Gatrie's winning when both double or neither double by a pretty wide margin. Devdan doubles a little more often, but Gatrie will close this lead over time since he'll have more levelups, despite having slightly lower Spd growth.

Gatrie has partial WT control, Devdan has 1 more Mov blahblah. They both have pretty average supports IMO.

I'm not seeing how Devdan beats Gatrie by such a margin that it makes up for the 3.5 earlygame chapters Gatrie has. It's a 1-2 AS gap at most assuming a good amount of KW access for both, and Gatrie wins Atk and Def by sizable margins.

Edited August 10, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Then note my drop off strategy (though perhaps not as effective as it would be in FE6), and it can be seen that Gatling Cannon also has his uses in battle despite move. Only the toughest should have the privelage to ride with the paladins, and Gatrie is not only tough but unlike Brom, he actually supports mounted units.

Then factor in who the knight ward would be more effective on...

In fact, prior to the KW, he could equip a band of sorts. Technically, with all things thought out, Gatrie basically has a 1 chapter availability over Brom. He could spend that time equipped with like a thief or a paladin band. Could always go the stronger route and let him keep the knight band till he leaves to bulk him up even more.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Lilmik11]

I just looked at the list,and for me,it's kind of perfect