FE9 Tier List v2

[-Cynthia-]

I disagree with Rhys < Ilyana. Earlygame healing = win as earlygame is the hardest part of the game (Lol chapter 4's 4 turn bexp limit), not to mention he doesn't even need a master seal to get healing. Not using resources = win. A level 13/1 Rhys has 19 Atk/10 AS with a forged light tome (-wt), level 10/1 Ilyana has 20 Atk/12 AS with a forged thunder tome (+Mt). That's very similar, yet Rhys' higher healing output makes him the better healer as both have fail durability (Rhys has 27 HP/5 Def, Ilyana has 26 HP/6 def. Both are very similar, although Rhys can have 6 Def with C Titania). All this includes band usage.

So even directly after promotion, Ilyana's leads are miniscule, yet Rhys' healing lead matters (Rhys heals 5 more with the same stave, but can use mend).

Overall, I'd say Rhys' lead at the start of the game outweighs Ilyana's leads near the end (Though Rhys always heals more and is better against mages)

How is Rhys getting to Level 13 while Ilyana's only level 10? We'd really have to go slowly through the earlygame chapters for him to get that much SEXP, but that really defies an efficient runthrough. Let's look at how many turns Rhys has to heal(max BEXP turn limits).

C2: 5

C4: 4

C5: 6

C6: 9

C7: 11

Then we have to consider Rhys can't necessarily heal every turn, if it's the first turn or he has to pop a Vulenary or w/e. I'll say this happen once a chapter.

So Rhys has about 20 uses of Heal(2 levels) and 10 uses of Mend(about another level). So they should be about equally leveled when Ilyana joins, he might have a small lead but Ilyana's making this up quickly, see below.

Then, Rhys gains like 11-12 Exp a heal. Average Ch9 enemy is Level 10, so Ilyana's getting ~ 24 exp just for hitting enemies,and about 42 exp per kill. So if anyone's going to have a level lead, it's Ilyana. If you want to compare 10/1 Rhys to 10/1 Ilyana look at my post above.

"Rhys can have +1 Def from C Titania". Ilyana can +2-3 Def from Mordecai or Gatrie and 10-15 Avo from Zihark. Her durability obviously increases more through supports than Rhys's can. Another thing I didn't mention was Shade, which helps Ilyana's durability, Serenity really doesn't do much of anything.

Rhys's healing lead usually doesn't matter too much. Ilyana heals 21 HP with Heal at 10/1. For example, someone like 9/0 Nephenee only has 23 HP total, if we heal Nephenee at 2 HP or more we can't notice the difference, and she'll only be missing 1 HP from max if we healed her with Ilyana instead of Rhys in the unlikely scenario she was at exactly 1 HP. And this is only for the short time Ilyana doesn't have access to Mend, she'll get up to D staves within only 10 Heal uses and then both she and Rhys heal fully on nearly everything(most characters shouldn't have over ~32 HP at this point).

So yeah, I'm not seeing any comparison in which Rhys has a level lead making much sense. Also, band usage earlygame is a little questionable, because the GMs go in and out a lot and Rhys isn't the only person wanting a band. I'm not sure if we should even assume them, since they're second playthrough + onwards only.

@PrettyBoiWolf Yes, I do.

Edited August 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

I'm pretty sure that the argument is Rhys's 30 turns of healing is better than whatever Ilyana has.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm pretty sure that the argument is Rhys's 30 turns of healing is better than whatever Ilyana has.

She has like a 4 AS lead, wins durability by a fair margin with supports considered, doesn't require forges to function, and gives better supports. Beating someone in nearly every parameter for 20 chapters or so is more important than some earlygame healing IMO. It's kind of the same way Brom>Gatrie, Brom beats him forever, even though Gatrie has those early chapters. Except Gatrie is more durable and hits harder than Brom and the AS gap isn't as large as Rhys/Ilyana.

Rhys's healing isn't that wonderful earlygame, though it is useful. In Chapter 4 for example, we're going to miss the BEXP turn count if we bother moving forward with everyone, since we're going to have to wall off Rhys(and Soren)and thus restrict out Mov. The best way to beat Ch4 is just send Titania forward and have her smash everything. In Chapter 6, Rhys is slowing us down pretty badly because it's so open, it's not very efficient to have to wait so we can protect Rhys when we could have moved forward instead.

Edited August 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Rhys has 52 opportunities to heal excluding chapter 4 for durability issues, and chapter 10. Using 10 of those for mend + 35 for heal nets Rhys 5 levels. Give him 417 bexp and he's now level 13. There's ~3000 bexp up for grabs between chapter's 8 and 11. So that's ~14% of all the bexp.

Ilyana will be recruited near the very end of the chapter (turn 5 ish) and wouldn't do much anyway (Thanks to lol durability). Between that and chapter 9, I'd say she gets 1.5 levels of experience. Meaning she needs 357 bexp to get to level 11 (I know I said 10, but I realised my mistake). Considering she has 1 less chapter available to bexp, this seems fair enougth to me.

BtW, a level 11/0 Ilyana only has 1 more mag, 1 more spd and 1 more res. 13 AS is only enougth to double 11 more enemies than what Rhys can, yet Rhys is still a much better healer.

Ilyana can +2-3 Def from Mordecai or Gatrie and 10-15 Avo from Zihark. Her durability obviously increases more through supports than Rhys's can.

She can't by chapter 11.

Rhys's healing lead usually doesn't matter too much. Ilyana heals 21 HP with Heal at 10/1. For example, someone like 9/0 Nephenee only has 23 HP total, if we heal Nephenee at 2 HP or more we can't notice the difference, and she'll only be missing 1 HP from max if we healed her with Ilyana instead of Rhys in the unlikely scenario she was at exactly 1 HP. And this is only for the short time Ilyana doesn't have access to Mend, she'll get up to D staves within only 10 Heal uses and then both she and Rhys heal fully on nearly everything(most characters shouldn't have over ~32 HP at this point).

I love how you chose Nephenee, a nice low HP character.

Boyd's HP is high 30's by this point, Oscar/Kieran are in thier early thirties, Titania is in her high thirties, Ike is in his high twenties, as is whomever you used your seraph robe on etcetera. They could use the 15 more HP Rhys gives them in taking an extra hit. People have to be healed less often with Rhys.

That's still a chapter where Rhys can use mend and Ilyana can't. After that, Rhys still has a small healing lead.

Rhys's healing isn't that wonderful earlygame, though it is useful. In Chapter 4 for example, we're going to miss the BEXP turn count if we bother moving forward with everyone, since we're going to have to wall off Rhys(and Soren)and thus restrict out Mov. The best way to beat Ch4 is just send Titania forward and have her smash everything. In Chapter 6, Rhys is slowing us down pretty badly because it's so open, it's not very efficient to have to wait so we can protect Rhys when we could have moved forward instead.

I agree with chapter 4, but not chapter 6.

Our team just doesn't have the durability to move that far ahead.

Edited August 2, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

Basically it comes down to this.

Ranulf has better combat for basically for most of Tormod's existence. Tormod needs plenty of favoritism whereas Ranulf does not. Ranulf has transform issues, but giving Ranulf the demi-band is easier to choke down than giving Tormod the favoritism he needs. On top of that, there is the durability advantage Ranulf has. Tormod will never be able to match what Ranulf has at base durability-wise. Tormod needs to be level 20/8 to match avoid and his AS.

Basically, Tormod's only advantages are magic damage, 1-2 range, effective weaponry, being the only mage with natural +2 move, and staffs after promotion.

Basically it's the utility you could get from any other mage after massive favoritism vs an at least usable unit off the bat. Usually the latter overtakes the former.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Rhys has 52 opportunities to heal excluding chapter 4 for durability issues, and chapter 10. Using 10 of those for mend + 35 for heal nets Rhys 5 levels. Give him 417 bexp and he's now level 13. There's ~3000 bexp up for grabs between chapter's 8 and 11. So that's ~14% of all the bexp.

Ilyana will be recruited near the very end of the chapter (turn 5 ish) and wouldn't do much anyway (Thanks to lol durability). Between that and chapter 9, I'd say she gets 1.5 levels of experience. Meaning she needs 357 bexp to get to level 11 (I know I said 10, but I realised my mistake). Considering she has 1 less chapter available to bexp, this seems fair enougth to me.

I don't think being available for one more chapter entitles you to any more BEXP, especially since Rhys doesn't really become better (I'm pretty sure everything still 2RKOs him and his healing is more or less unaffected).

You're underestimating her level. Let's say she gets recruited turn 5, she'll attack 3 enemies and gain over half a level.

Then Chapter 9 comes around, we have 8 turns to clear. Even if Ilyana merely attacked one enemy per turn(I'm not even going include possible enemy phase action here), she would gain almost 2 levels(24*8= 192). Of course, Ilyana definitely isn't incapable of killing things(usually 2RKOs with Elthunder), these grant her about half a level per kill. So 3 levels for Ilyana for Ch8+9 is pretty reasonable(maybe even under but w/e), she's reached level 10 sans BEXP. Of course we can add BEXP to her (let's make it ~ the same amount we gave Rhys, yes?). If she uses less(324), it's 13/0, slightly more(438 total) and she's 14/0.

So yeah, the only way Rhys is getting a level lead is through favoritism. Unless you want to argue that Ilyana is only going to attack an enemy every other turn on Ch9, but that seems really stupid.

She can't by chapter 11.

I think it's important to analyze their performance over the entire game, not just Chapter 11. Ilyana's durability is going to increase a lot more over time than Rhys's.

I love how you chose Nephenee, a nice low HP character.

Boyd's HP is high 30's by this point, Oscar/Kieran are in thier early thirties, Titania is in her high thirties, Ike is in his high twenties, as is whomever you used your seraph robe on etcetera. They could use the 15 more HP Rhys gives them in taking an extra hit. People have to be healed less often with Rhys.

The lower a chracter's HP is, the more important it is for them to be healed, and we're using characters like Nephenee most likely. Even with higher HP characters, if a character is only down 21 HP or less they won't notice the difference, and the HP Ilyana doesn't heal is going to be like 5. And this only lasts for a chapter and a half anyway, since then she can use Mend and heal over 30 per turn.

That's still a chapter where Rhys can use mend and Ilyana can't. After that, Rhys still has a small healing lead.

"Winning" healing for one chapter is a lot less important than like the 19 chapters that come after it where they tie. Actually, Ilyana's the better healer then, because we can put her into more dangerous sitautions, since she's more likely to dodge, not be targeted, not be doubled, and be 3RKOd instead of 2RKOd, being more durable gives her more flexibility in movement. Plus, when she's attacked she's more likely to kill the enemy than Rhys is.

Edited August 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[uzy5o]

How are you getting 24 exp per hit and 42 exp per kill?

If we assume level 6 attacking level 10,

Battle Exp base

= (21 + [enemy's Power - Power]) / 2 + Easy mode bonus

= (21 + (10 - 6)) / 2 + 0

= 12

Experience from defeating enemy

= (Battle Exp base + [enemy's Power - Power] + Mode bonus + Boss bonus + Thief bonus) x Skill coefficient

= (12 + (10 - 6) + 15 + 0 + 0) x 1

= 31

[-Cynthia-]

How are you getting 24 exp per hit and 42 exp per kill?

If we assume level 6 attacking level 10,

Battle Exp base

= (21 + [enemy's Power - Power]) / 2 + Easy mode bonus

= (21 + (10 - 6)) / 2 + 0

= 12

Experience from defeating enemy

= (Battle Exp base + [enemy's Power - Power] + Mode bonus + Boss bonus + Thief bonus) x Skill coefficient

= (12 + (10 - 6) + 15 + 0 + 0) x 1

= 31

Because I forgot to divide by 2 lol

Still though, she's gaining more exp than Rhys, so I don't see him pulling a level lead, unless we give him more BEXP.

Edited August 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I don't think being available for one more chapter entitles you to any more BEXP, especially since Rhys doesn't really become better (I'm pretty sure everything still 2RKOs him and his healing is more or less unaffected).

With this logic, it doesn't matter if we hold onto skills like vantage and wrath for units that come later. Bexp is no different to any other resource.

Doesn't become better? He doubles 3 less enemies without the extra level and 14 enemies kill him quicker than they did before, not to mention enemy combinations that can kill him increase and he loses 3 avo, which builds up quickly. Yeah, he becomes better.

You're underestimating her level. Let's say she gets recruited turn 5, she'll attack 3 enemies and gain over half a level.

It's actually 36 exp, according to the numbers uzy50 gave us. Then, attacking 1 enemy every turn and killing 1 enemy every 3 turns in chapter 9 nets her 72 + 62 = 134. 134 + 36 = 170 exp. so, maybe 1.5 levels was a poor estimate, but the reality isn't much better. Especially when you remember that she can miss.

I think it's important to analyze their performance over the entire game, not just Chapter 11. Ilyana's durability is going to increase a lot more over time than Rhys's.

I know, but that was a chapter 11 comparison. If I were to go ahead of it and show you growths:

Rhys: 40% HP, 60% Atk, 40% AS, 130% Avo, 25% Def, 55% Res

Ilyana: 45% HP, 50% Atk, 30% AS, 105% Avo, 15% Def, 50% Res

Ilyana is more durable solely because of her def supports. There are a vareity of scenario's which hurt her durability lead:

1) Muarim and Brom are played. Ilyana doesn't get a Zihark support for obvious reasons (Water + Thunder > Light)

2) Zihark isn't played.

3) Mordecai isn't played.

4) Mist and/or Muarim or/and Ranulf and/or Ulki is played. Morecai doesn't support Ilyana (Water + Thunder > Light, Ranulf needs the bonuses and Mordy don't care for Ilyana's def in the first place.)

5) Mia and Lucia aren't played. Likely scenario for obvious reasons.

6) Gatrie isn't played. He is kind of meh in the first place and displaces Tanith - Marcia if we want him solely for support purposes.

7) Titania is played and one of Boyd/Mist isn't played. Rhys can now get a Titania support.

8) Kieran is played and Marcia isn't fielded or Gatrie is in play (Marcia support Gatrie, and frees one of Kieran's slots)

9) Ulki is played and one of or both of Boyd/Mordy are full/not in play. Ulki then has a slot free.

10) Rofl is played (Unlikely, I'll admit, but with his recent rise, not impossible).

11) They face a mage, Rhys wins for better res.

That's a lot of scenario's where Ilyana loses her durability lead or it becomes minor.

Rhys obviously grows better offensively, 10% Atk and 10% AS growth leads. This means Rhys soon catches Ilyana up in spd, whilst staying ahead in Atk.

The lower a chracter's HP is, the more important it is for them to be healed, and we're using characters like Nephenee most likely. Even with higher HP characters, if a character is only down 21 HP or less they won't notice the difference, and the HP Ilyana doesn't heal is going to be like 5. And this only lasts for a chapter and a half anyway, since then she can use Mend and heal over 30 per turn.

This tier list says that Oscar, Kieran, Boyd and Titania are all more likely to be played than Nephenee, Ike is forced, and Mordy/Lethe are better than Nephenee at this point anyway. Don't say Boyd is durable, and with better healing, we can let Mordy/Lethe battle untransformed to get an uber unit quicker.

[-Cynthia-]

With this logic, it doesn't matter if we hold onto skills like vantage and wrath for units that come later. Bexp is no different to any other resource.

Doesn't become better? He doubles 3 less enemies without the extra level and 14 enemies kill him quicker than they did before, not to mention enemy combinations that can kill him increase and he loses 3 avo, which builds up quickly. Yeah, he becomes better.

He doesn't become better in Ch8 though, the only chapter where has has BEXP and Ilyana doesn't. We don't care about Rhys being able to double enemies in Ch8 for obvious reasons, and I doubt his durability changes significantly. Ilyana also gets better with BEXP, it doesn't really make sense to give much more to one than the other.

And while Ilyana can miss, Rhys can't necessarily heal each turn either. Anyway, I think equaling their levels is pretty fair, given all the factors.

Ilyana is more durable solely because of her def supports. There are a vareity of scenario's which hurt her durability lead:

Mostly this had to do with likelihood of scenarios. For almost everyone we assume supports, unless they're not reasonable, that's what we've done with every comparison so far.

Muarim and Brom are played. Ilyana doesn't get a Zihark support for obvious reasons (Water + Thunder > Light

Brom is pretty average and Muarim isn't always in play either. Muarim also isn't crushing Ilyana in bonuses, especially when you consider Ilyana hands hers out sonner. Also there other situations to consider, what if Brom supports Boyd/Nephenee? Then he can't support Zihark, who can't be full and thus supports Ilyana.

2) Zihark isn't played.

3) Mordecai isn't played.

Both possible, but so far we've gone under the assumption that said supports are being fielded unless they aren't very good.

4) Mist and/or Muarim or/and Ranulf and/or Ulki is played. Morecai doesn't support Ilyana (Water + Thunder > Light, Ranulf needs the bonuses and Mordy don't care for Ilyana's def in the first place.)

"Ranulf needs the bonuses", by that logic so does Ilyana and she can actually get some bonuses before Ch24, plus Ranulf isn't very good and provides worse bonuses than Ilyana, he is not a valid reason to deny Ilyana a support. Ulki being in play isn't going to happen almost ever, not to mention the bonuses come later again.

5) Mia and Lucia aren't played. Likely scenario for obvious reasons.

You're just being silly if we're automatically dismissing Mia and Lucia being in play while Rolf and Ulki somehow become valid options suddenly.

6) Gatrie isn't played. He is kind of meh in the first place and displaces Tanith - Marcia if we want him solely for support purposes.

I agree with the first part, I'm not sure what you mean by the second part, it has nothing to do with Gatrie/Ilyana. Ilyana only needs Mordy/Zihark anyway, Gatrie is just a nice fallback.

7) Titania is played and one of Boyd/Mist isn't played. Rhys can now get a Titania support.

There's a 3 Mov gap. I already assumed Rhys getting a Titania support +1 Def < 10-15 Avo(and 1 Def) and 2-3 Def (or 2 more Def)

8) Kieran is played and Marcia isn't fielded or Gatrie is in play (Marcia support Gatrie, and frees one of Kieran's slots

Marcia would prefer Kieran over Gatrie regardless, due to matching Mov much better and similar bonuses. Even if Rhys does support Kieran, there's a 3 Mov gap and Rhys is only getting 5 Avo tops.

9) Ulki is played and one of or both of Boyd/Mordy are full/not in play. Ulki then has a slot free.

Ulki being played is the problem here. He's the worst offensive unit in the game.

10) Rofl is played (Unlikely, I'll admit, but with his recent rise, not impossible).

He rose to the top of Bottom, we still aren't fielding him almost ever. And Rhys is again only getting 5-7 Avo out of it, so it's still worse than Ilyana's likely supports even if it does happen.

11) They face a mage, Rhys wins for better res.

Winning against 90% of enemies> winning against 10%. Ilyana's Res is pretty good anyway, and she has a better chance of ORKOing said mage, so this is hardly a lead.

That's a lot of scenario's where Ilyana loses her durability lead or it becomes minor.

A lot of scenarios that are mostly dependent upon things like Ulki being in play. Really, Ilyana getting A Mordy/ B Zihark or Gatrie or A Gatrie B Mordy or B Mordy B Zihark C Gatrie etc. are all more reasonable situations than most of Rhys's options save B Titania, whih has a Mov issue.

Rhys obviously grows better offensively, 10% Atk and 10% AS growth leads. This means Rhys soon catches Ilyana up in spd, whilst staying ahead in Atk.

"Soon", IE never. Even at 20/20, Ilyana's still beating him by a point. 10% growth takes a very long time to overcome a 3-4(depends on levels we give them) AS gap. There's also the forging issues, anything other than a forged min Wt tome and Rhys loses 3 AS, which sucks, and Ilyana's Str growth is 20% higher anyway, so she can use much more damaging tomes without losing AS if we remove forges. Rhys's magic grows marginally higher, but Ilyana hits for effective damage on things, meaning she's often outdamaging Rhys anyway, and the magic gap between them is never very large,it will almost never make up for thunder>light.

This tier list says that Oscar, Kieran, Boyd and Titania are all more likely to be played than Nephenee, Ike is forced, and Mordy/Lethe are better than Nephenee at this point anyway. Don't say Boyd is durable, and with better healing, we can let Mordy/Lethe battle untransformed to get an uber unit quicker.

Boyd is like the only high HP unit that isn't super durable, congratulations, Rhys heals Boyd better for one chapter, this is a very minor advantage. And assuming we're using alll high HP units is ridiculous. On almost every playthrough we use units like Nephenee, Marcia, Soren, Rhys, Zihark etc., Nephenee is at the top of Upper Mid. Are you saying she's not ever going to be in play now, simply because she's not in Top? Lol.

Edit: When I called Ulki the worst offensive unit in the game I apologize, I forgot Sothe could attack. He might beat Elincia too actually, but w/e Ulki sucks.

Edited August 3, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

I don't think being available for one more chapter entitles you to any more BEXP, especially since Rhys doesn't really become better (I'm pretty sure everything still 2RKOs him and his healing is more or less unaffected).

I disagree. The BEXP mechanics dictate that BEXP is used most efficiently on low leveled units, which means that it's generally most optimal to exhaust our BEXP resources as soon as we get them (because units like Oscar, Boyd, Ike, etc. also want EXP and want to maximize BEXP usage).

[-Cynthia-]

I disagree. The BEXP mechanics dictate that BEXP is used most efficiently on low leveled units, which means that it's generally most optimal to exhaust our BEXP resources as soon as we get them (because units like Oscar, Boyd, Ike, etc. also want EXP and want to maximize BEXP usage).

It doesn't really apply for this particular example though, because Rhys gains almost nothing from a few levels of BEXP at this point. We don't care if he can double stuff, because he can't attack, and his durability doesn't matter too much since he shouldn't be attacked on this map and doesn't increase much anyway (we have chokepoints lol). And Ilyana only shows up one chapter later. And if it's used bettter on low level units, and Ilyana is a lower level than Rhys come Ch9 BEXP time, the argument actually shifts into giving it to her over Rhys.

Also, anyone oppose Ranulf>Tormod?

Edited August 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Also, anyone oppose Ranulf>Tormod?

Where's mah evidence?

[-Cynthia-]

Basically it comes down to this.

Ranulf has better combat for basically for most of Tormod's existence. Tormod needs plenty of favoritism whereas Ranulf does not. Ranulf has transform issues, but giving Ranulf the demi-band is easier to choke down than giving Tormod the favoritism he needs. On top of that, there is the durability advantage Ranulf has. Tormod will never be able to match what Ranulf has at base durability-wise. Tormod needs to be level 20/8 to match avoid and his AS.

Basically, Tormod's only advantages are magic damage, 1-2 range, effective weaponry, being the only mage with natural +2 move, and staffs after promotion.

Basically it's the utility you could get from any other mage after massive favoritism vs an at least usable unit off the bat. Usually the latter overtakes the former

I was actually thinking about posting something similar. Ranulf just crushes Tormod durability wise, 2HKOd as opposed to ~7HKOd is a big gap and they're facing similar hit rates. Ranulf actually usually does better offensively as well, he doubles more often than Tormod does unless Tormod is overleveled(Tormod will have trouble reaching 20/8 by Ch23 IMO). Tormod has his advantages, staves are nice but we probably already have 2 staff users so meh. His supports are a little better, not great though. There's his 1-2 range, but he can't actually see much enemy phase action due to durability issues. There's also Tormod being pretty terrible at jointime and he'll need a lot of resources to climb out of this hole.

[Zkirsche]

Giving him 1.5 levels per chapter, Tormod reaches 20/2 by chapter 23. Let's give him a thunder forge and 4 uses with the mage band and 1 with a def band and 5 with a speed band, and Ranulf the demi band:

20/2 Tormod with forged thunder, 'A' Devdan, 'C': 31 HP, 31 Atk, 18 AS, 51 Avo, 10 Def, 17 Res, 28 with physic

Base Ranulf with the Demi band: 46 HP, 30 Atk, 19 AS, 51 Avo, 20 Def, 8 Res

Ranulf wins durability, Tormod wins offence. But by how much? They both own each other in both aspects. Ranulf is a defensive tank, being able to take on the 32 Atk wyvern lord with ease (He's 4RKO'ed), his durability is very comparable to good characters such as Jill, whom at the same level has the same def as Ranulf unsupported yet less HP. That's very good. Even with 1-2 range, Tormod does not beat this.

However, let's look at the difference offensively:

2x Warrior lv 2-4 steel axe: 44 hp, 26 atk, 11 AS, 94 hit, 27 avo, 11 def, 7 res

Tormod ORKO's, Ranulf 2RKO's.

2x Axe Knight lv 20 steel axe: 33 hp, 24 atk, 13 AS, 91 hit, 32 avo, 15 def, 7 res

Same as above.

2x Sage lv 3 tornado, physic: 28 hp, 20 atk, 14 AS, 115 hit, 31 avo, 8 def, 15 res

Both ORKO, aka, Ranulf doesn't even have an offensive lead against the magic users.

2x Cat lv 10-11 claw: 44 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 127 hit, 39 avo, 18 def, 9 res

Tormod 2RKOs (Yes 2RKOs, remember fire magic), Ranulf 4RKO's.

2x Tiger lv 8 claw: 41 hp, 29 atk, 15 AS, 122 hit, 32 avo, 17 def, 7 res

Both 2RKO.

1x Sniper lv 4 steel bow: 32 hp, 22 atk, 14 AS, 110 hit, 32 avo, 12 def, 8 res

Both ORKO.

1x Swordmaster lv 3 silver blade: 30 hp, 28 atk, 16 AS, 96 hit, 36 avo, 9 def, 6 res

Both 2RKO.

3x Wyvern Rider lv 20 steel lance: 34 hp, 27 atk, 10 AS, 102 hit, 24 avo, 18 def, 8 res

Tormod ORKO's, Ranulf 2RKO's.

That's a sample from every enemy type in chapter 23, and Tormod wins all of them. Tormod doesn't lose offence once, Ranulf loses defence against mages, various lategame bosses and laguz slaying weapon equipping enemies. Add in tormod's higher crit chances, ability to counter 1-2 range on the enemy phase and healing utility and Tormod is better than Ranulf at join time.

Endgame, giving Tormod 1.333 levels per chapter and Ranulf 1.2 levels per chapter, we get this comparison:

20/10 Tormod with forged Thunder, 'A' Devdan, 'B' Calill: 35 HP, 35 Atk, 21 AS, 63 Avo, 12 Def, 21 Res, 31 Physic

xx/16 Ranulf with the Demi band, 'B' Lethe: 53 HP, 34 Atk, 21 AS, 63 Avo, 23 Def, 23 Def, 10 Res

I'm still not arguing Ranulf < Tormod defensively, though it matters less because Tormod has 1-2 range, seige tomes for epic range, is decent at dodging as hit rates are only 40-60 and has good res for mages.

Offensively, it's the same as before, except they double the same things so it's got better for Tormod.

Then Tormod still has healing, which is useful for healing Ike when he fights Ashnard.

Add this to Tormod's availability win and it's a clear win for Tormod.

giving Ranulf the demi-band is easier to choke down than giving Tormod the favoritism he needs.

lol no. Enemies are level ~15 in chapter 16.

Battle Exp base

= (21 + [enemy's Power - Power]) / 2 + Easy mode bonus

= (21 + (15 - 7)) / 2 + 0

= 14

Experience from defeating enemy

= (Battle Exp base + [enemy's Power - Power] + Mode bonus + Boss bonus + Thief bonus) x Skill coefficient

= (14 + (15 - 7) + 15 + 0 + 0) x 1

= 37

To get ~1.6 levels per chapter he only needs 9 attacks and 1 kill. Chapters are ~10 turns long usually so when you add this to bexp, 1.5 levels per chapter is harsh, if anything.

Even my estimate of 1.333 levels per chapter is harsh considering his offences. Take his kill exp against level 19 unpromoted units:

Experience from defeating enemy

= (Battle Exp base + [enemy's Power - Power] + Mode bonus + Boss bonus + Thief bonus) x Skill coefficient

= (10 + (20 - 21) + 15 + 0 + 0) x 1

= 24.

So that's ~6 kills we're giving him without bexp.

None of this is hard to accomplish. Considering Tormod's base Atk/AS with a forge is 19 Atk/9 AS. Taking a look at some enemies:

2x Soldier lv 13 iron lance: 29 hp, 16 atk, 9 AS, 103 hit, 21 avo, 9 def, 4 res

That's a 2RKO.

5x Myrmidon lv 15 steel sword: 26 hp, 19 atk, 14 AS, 107 hit, 32 avo, 7 def, 3 res

Another 2RKO, though he does get ORKO'ed back.

2x Fighter lv 15 (steel axe: 37 hp, 23 atk, 6 AS, 85 hit, 16 avo, 9 def, 4 res

A 3RKO.

2x Knight lv 12 iron lance: 28 hp, 17 atk, 3 AS, 97 hit, 9 avo, 15 def, 5 res

A 2RKO.

Etcetera.

As you can see, he can team up with others to kill things (It's not like there aren't any other units not killing at this point - remember Astrid/Makalov.) which means he can easily get some exp.

Tormod's durability is easily solved through shade and/or a guy with provoke being near.

Edited August 5, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

2x Warrior lv 2-4 steel axe: 44 hp, 26 atk, 11 AS, 94 hit, 27 avo, 11 def, 7 res

Tormod ORKO's, Ranulf 2RKO's.

2x Axe Knight lv 20 steel axe: 33 hp, 24 atk, 13 AS, 91 hit, 32 avo, 15 def, 7 res

Same as above.

Note that if fully transformed, Ranulf ORKOs these guys. We can easily send Ranulf into a round or two of unstransformed combat to get gauge up and just Demi when he untransforms, his starting gauge is pretty high.

2x Cat lv 10-11 claw: 44 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 127 hit, 39 avo, 18 def, 9 res

Tormod 2RKOs (Yes 2RKOs, remember fire magic), Ranulf 4RKO's.

Ranulf also 2RKOs fully transformed and with 3 levels BEXP. And before anyone complains about BEXP being unfair, we've given Tormod loads of BEXP and band usage thus far.

2x Tiger lv 8 claw: 41 hp, 29 atk, 15 AS, 122 hit, 32 avo, 17 def, 7 res

Both 2RKO.

1x Sniper lv 4 steel bow: 32 hp, 22 atk, 14 AS, 110 hit, 32 avo, 12 def, 8 res

Both ORKO.

Yup, this doesn't really show Tormod beating Ranulf offensively.

1x Swordmaster lv 3 silver blade: 30 hp, 28 atk, 16 AS, 96 hit, 36 avo, 9 def, 6 res

Both 2RKO.

Ranulf can ORKO with full transform boosts (or a level of BEXP).

3x Wyvern Rider lv 20 steel lance: 34 hp, 27 atk, 10 AS, 102 hit, 24 avo, 18 def, 8 res

Tormod ORKO's, Ranulf 2RKO's.

True. With a little favoritism(3 levels BEXP and some band usage) we can get Ranulf to ORKO.

That's a sample from every enemy type in chapter 23, and Tormod wins all of them. Tormod doesn't lose offence once, Ranulf loses defence against mages, various lategame bosses and laguz slaying weapon equipping enemies. Add in tormod's higher crit chances, ability to counter 1-2 range on the enemy phase and healing utility and Tormod is better than Ranulf at join time.

Tormod actually tied in a lot of these comparisons offensively, or even lost in the case of the SM. As for the defense, mages are uncommon (like 10% of enemies), and Tormod actually does worse against laguzslayer weapons than Ranulf does. For example, the laguzslayer myrmidon 3HKOs Tormod and only 5HKOs Ranulf. Ranulf leading against all other enemies is more important obviously.

Tormod's crit chances are pretty low overall. And countering at 1-2 range isn't so greta when your durability is bad. Tormod can only expose himself to one enemy before facing death chances, so he can't use this advantage very often. Ranulf can maim a whole group of 1 range enemies of the enemy phase, so even if he does a little wosr on offense (they #RKO the same most of the time), he's going to be damaging a lot more than Tormod does.

Add this to Tormod's availability win and it's a clear win for Tormod.

Availability doesn't count for much if you aren't a positive during it and Tormod is a detriment if anything pre-promotion...which is almost the entire time before Ranulf joins.

As you can see, he can team up with others to kill things (It's not like there aren't any other units not killing at this point - remember Astrid/Makalov.) which means he can easily get some exp.

He can get some Exp, but let's not pretend like he's a positive when he shows up.

Tormod's durability is easily solved through shade and/or a guy with provoke being near.

Both of these are unreliable. We don't really consider Shade to end Ilyana's durability issues, so we can't do the same for Tormod. On this line of thought there are various skills we could give Ranulf to help his offense, Wrath and whatnot, he has a lot more skill capacity than Tormod does(assuming we're keeping Celerity lol) Or we could just give him some BEXP, 50% Str and 65% Spd solve a lot of problems. Even if Tormod does equip Shade, that means he doesn't see much enemy phase action while Ranulf can, so it's not much of an improvement.

I guess it depends on how much we value Tormod's staff utility, but Ranulf's defensive lead is a lot more crushing than Tormod's offensive lead, which is nearly non existent if Ranulf is fully transformed.

Edited August 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Note that if fully transformed, Ranulf ORKOs these guys. We can easily send Ranulf into a round or two of unstransformed combat to get gauge up and just Demi when he untransforms, his starting gauge is pretty high.

This is very inefficient as Ranulf can't counter untransformed. Not to mention that swapping the demi band between laguz is bad as it sends them straight into their untransformed mode. oops, now we've lost Muarim.

Ranulf also 2RKOs fully transformed and with 3 levels BEXP. And before anyone complains about BEXP being unfair, we've given Tormod loads of BEXP and band usage thus far.

I got 1.5 levels without bexp at all. So yeah, it is unfair, as if we gave Tormod bexp, he'd be a higher level.

Yup, this doesn't really show Tormod beating Ranulf offensively.

Tormod has a crit lead.

Tormod actually tied in a lot of these comparisons offensively, or even lost in the case of the SM. As for the defense, mages are uncommon (like 10% of enemies), and Tormod actually does worse against laguzslayer weapons than Ranulf does. For example, the laguzslayer myrmidon 3HKOs Tormod and only 5HKOs Ranulf. Ranulf leading against all other enemies is more important obviously.

No, we wins because of the crit lead, it may be small, but it exists. Don't dismiss something for being small when Ranulf has nothing like that on his side.

Tormod's crit chances are pretty low overall. And countering at 1-2 range isn't so greta when your durability is bad. Tormod can only expose himself to one enemy before facing death chances, so he can't use this advantage very often. Ranulf can maim a whole group of 1 range enemies of the enemy phase, so even if he does a little wosr on offense (they #RKO the same most of the time), he's going to be damaging a lot more than Tormod does.

Ranulf has 9 base crit, with a forged thunder tome with + crit and + MT, a level 20/2 Tormod has 22 crit. Enemies have 3-6 crit, meaning Ranulf only has about 3-6% chance of critkilling enemies. Tormod has 16-19% chance of critkilling enemies. So it isn't as low as you might think, especially when doubling. a 16% chance of critkilling increases to a 29.44% chance of critkilling an enemy if Tormod doubles, which is frequently.

Availability doesn't count for much if you aren't a positive during it and Tormod is a detriment if anything pre-promotion...which is almost the entire time before Ranulf joins.

A detriment? Lolno, he has good offence mainly and it's not hard to protect him with units that have canto. He may not be a whoamg positive, but doing something > doing nothing.

Both of these are unreliable. We don't really consider Shade to end Ilyana's durability issues, so we can't do the same for Tormod. On this line of thought there are various skills we could give Ranulf to help his offense, Wrath and whatnot, he has a lot more skill capacity than Tormod does(assuming we're keeping Celerity lol) Or we could just give him some BEXP, 50% Str and 65% Spd solve a lot of problems. Even if Tormod does equip Shade, that means he doesn't see much enemy phase action while Ranulf can, so it's not much of an improvement.

Ike wants wrath + resolve for Ashnard and at least Wrath for the BK. Or we could give it to a high crit unit like Zihark or Stefan. Vantage is obviously used on Nephenee, and many other units can use it well anyway (Zihark again, Mordy). Besides, I have no idea why we're holding on to these skills and stuff for so long.

We could also give Tormod a seraph robe, which not many people really want compared to, say, a draco shield or speedwing. With it, he is only 2RKO'ed by 3 enemies on the map in chapter 23.

I guess it depends on how much we value Tormod's staff utility, but Ranulf's defensive lead is a lot more crushing than Tormod's offensive lead, which is nearly non existent if Ranulf is fully transformed.

Or greater if we actually give Tormod a decent bit of bexp. Fact is, Tormod is twice as good offensively as Ranulf is (perhaps more in some cases with crit). Tormod is also ~twice as worse as Ranulf is durably, except Tormod has actual leads there (Mages and some lategame bosses)

Personally, I've changed my opinion on stave utility. Units may be durable, but against mages/slayer enemies, people still need to be healed, fliers especially fear ballistae, which are quite common lategame. pLus, there are still remnants of underlevelled units in chapter 17, and we can seal Tormod to heal them.

Edited August 5, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

How do you figure Tormod having twice the offense of Ranulf? When Ranulf and Tormod both ORKO(pretty common) it's a tie, when they both 2RKO, it's nearly a tie, and Ranulf and Tormod are generally #RKOing more often than not.

Ranulf is easily more than twice as durable as Tormod. Tormod can only handle 1-2 enemies before dying, with Ranulf it's like 6-8. And you can rant on about mages all you want, but we both know they're the vast minority.

[Zkirsche]

How do you figure Tormod having twice the offense of Ranulf? When Ranulf and Tormod both ORKO(pretty common) it's a tie, when they both 2RKO, it's nearly a tie, and Ranulf and Tormod are generally #RKOing more often than not.

Actually, Ranulf 2RKO's 36/49 of chapter 23's enemies. Tormod only 2RKO's 10 enemies. That's almost a quater of what Ranulf does. And the 13 Crit means a lot. 6 Crit only increases to 11.64% after doubling, but 19 Crit increases to 34.39% - around 3* as much as What Ranulf does.

-

Ranulf is easily more than twice as durable as Tormod. Tormod can only handle 1-2 enemies before dying, with Ranulf it's like 6-8. And you can rant on about mages all you want, but we both know they're the vast minority.

2-3, actually. And considering they can only attack him on the enemy phase, an enemy that 3RKO's him takes 3 turns to kill him. Whereas an enemy that 6RKO's Ranulf also takes 3 turns to kill him - 3 player phase, and 3 enemy phases. Being killed after 4 turns instead of 3 is not twice as much durability. Especially once you add in mages, which may be uncommon, but they exist and should be accounted for. Willful ignorance is not an argument.

[-Cynthia-]

Actually, Ranulf 2RKO's 36/49 of chapter 23's enemies. Tormod only 2RKO's 10 enemies. That's almost a quater of what Ranulf does. And the 13 Crit means a lot. 6 Crit only increases to 11.64% after doubling, but 19 Crit increases to 34.39% - around 3* as much as What Ranulf does.

Factoring enemy Lck reduces those crit chances to very low numbers for both.

When fully transformed, Ranulf ORKOs 33/50 of the chapter's enemies, 2RKOs 14 more, and only is worse than that against the cats and Petrine. This is Ranulf without any resources period, yeah Tormod does better with a forge, a favorable support set, and probably some BEXP, but there isn't that much difference.

It's probably in Ranulf's best interests not to go for the Demi Band at all, thus freeing it up for Muarim or Mordecai or whoever. He can transform after turn 2 with only one round of combat, after turn 1 with 3 enemies, it really isn't that ineffecient(refer to the argument you used with Mordecai).

2-3, actually. And considering they can only attack him on the enemy phase, an enemy that 3RKO's him takes 3 turns to kill him. Whereas an enemy that 6RKO's Ranulf also takes 3 turns to kill him - 3 player phase, and 3 enemy phases. Being killed after 4 turns instead of 3 is not twice as much durability. Especially once you add in mages, which may be uncommon, but they exist and should be accounted for. Willful ignorance is not an argument.

There are plenty of enemies that 2RKO Tormod, so 2-3 is accurate. We only need 26 Atk to KO 20/2 Tormod, 12 enemies reach this on Ch23, if Tormod gets even slightly Def screwed (it's 9.5 Def at 20/2) this jumps to 19 enemies, there are a lot of combinations that kill Tormod.

It's much easier to adjust for Ranulf taking counters than for Tormod dying in a fewer number of hits. For example, we can heal Ranulf once in 6 turns or so, we can't heal Tormod after he's dead after being left in range of 3 enemies.

Ranulf doesn't even die in double the hits Tormod takes though. For example, a 26 Atk enemy attacks both, Tormod is 2HKOd, Ranulf is 12HKOd(26-22= 4 Ranulf has 46 HP). That's effectively 6 times as much durability. I'm sorry, I made an error when I said 6-8 enemies, forgot to include transform bonuses.

As for mages, being better against 90%> being better against 10%.

Edited August 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Brom > Calill:

Level 20/5 Brom with a forged steel lance + 9 KW uses, 'A' Boyd, 'B' Zihark: 43 HP, 39 Atk, 16 AS, 49 Avo, 25 Def, 9 Res

Base Calill with forged thunder: 32 HP, 28 Atk, 18 AS, 52 Avo, 8 Def, 17 Res

They both ORKO practically everything, however, Brom doesn't ORKO 2 enemies that Calill can, Calill doesn't ORKO 3 enemies that Brom can. Though Calill does do better against the boss (a 2RKO instead of a 3RKO). Overall, it's a tie offensively. If one had to win, I'd say Calill would for better 1-2 range, though too shab Brom's isn't too shabby either (35 Atk is still enougth to ORKO all but 2 wyverns), so it's a small lead at best.

Defensively, Brom crushes Calill. He doesn't get damaged by a good portion of the map (only 33% of the map deals damage to him). The worst a non-mage deals to him is a 6RKO - and that's the boss, who 2RKO's Calill. The best Calill does against a non-mage is a 3RKO. Against Mages, Brom is at worst 4RKO'ed. Calill at worst is a 7RKO. But this goes to an infiniteRKO against some mages. Calill being better against mages doesn't make up for the fact that Brom crushes Calill everywhere else durably (3 avo is lol).

Brom also is giving out useful support bonuses.

Endgame, we should get something that looks like this:

20/15 Brom with 17 uses of the KW, forged silver lance, 'A' Boyd, 'B' Zihark: 51 HP, 49 Atk, 21 AS, 61 Avo, 30 Def, 12 Res

20/15 Calill with a forged thunder tome, 'A' Neph, 'B' Geoff: 37 HP, 35 Atk, 22 AS, 78 Avo, 12 Def, 20 Res

Brom is better against 2 more enemies than Calill is offensively. So wins offence.

Brom is obviously superier defensively.

Both give out useful support bonuses.

Brom still wins overall.

Brom > Calill.

-------

If Ranulf transforms normally, then he can only fight for ~4 turns (-12 from turn loss, -8 from battles) each chapter unless we're inefficient and let a unit that can't attack on the enemy phase get attacked. You should notice that my argument for Mordy was cut down quickly as silly. Because of this, Tormod easily wins usefulness.

Oh and enemy luck ranges from as low as 2 to as high as 8. The most common enemy ddg in chapter 23, for example, is 5. So Tormod's chances of critkilling is around 31% after doubling.

Tormod is 3RKO'ed by the majority of the map with a simple seraph robe, and giving a great offensive unit an enemy phase is well worth the robe.

[Vykan12]

I'm not big on statements such as "twice as durable", as it's implication can change so drastically. There's a massive difference between getting ORKOed and 2RKOed, but then if one unit is 25RKOed and the other is 50RKOed, the latter character's durability lead is basically irrelevant. Or, if you have a unit who never takes damage, they are infinitely times more durable than any team member you have, but then how much that lead actually matters is much less than what the math is suggesting.

I'm still a bit undecided on Tormod vs Ranulf. There's no denying Tormod wins offence, but Ranulf's offensive problems are more easily corrected than Tormod's defensive ones. But then Ranulf will only be attacking about 2/3rds of the time, and Tormod has staves which translates into more offence for the team. We also cannot give Ranulf 1-2 range ever, and ranged enemies will want to attack him just to drain his meter (they do that in FE10 at least). I'm leaning more towards Tormod at this point.

[-Cynthia-]

Tormkd's getting 2-3HKOd, which is pretty bad, and Ranulf is getting like 12HKOd, it's a very large gap. I do aghree that durability leads don't mean as much when both are very durable, but Tormod'd durability truly is suspect.

I can see Brom>Calill.

[grandjackal]

I can agree. Couple reasons why.

-Calill's offense off the bat is indeed great, but 32 HP and 8 defense is not much better than most of your 20/1 mages like Soren and Illyana. Brom's sheer defensive lead is far greater and allows more counters. Then factor in that Brom could whip out a horseslayer or a heavy spear, or a brave lance, or a killer lance, or a laguz lance.

-Hard to go against water boosts to 2 pretty good untis.

-It continues from there until Endgame, where Brom's 21 AS is not doubling anything Calill's 22 AS isn't. Then factor in that enemies got a severe spike this chapter, and a tank would be greatly appreciated. In fact, there's one unit running around that can double both these chumps, and this guy's packing enough power to ORKO Calill. I believe the man is packing 36 MT and Astra. Looking at those stats, either way he would absolutely murder Calill. On the other hand for Brom...

Factor in Lance reducing sword damage by 1 due to WTA, this fool is doing 5 damage to Brom per shot. Even 2 crits is only 30 damage, 21 HP, which he could take a crit AND another normal hit and STILL be alive. Factor in Astra going off, damage rounded down to 2 per shot, and each shot critting.

2x3x5=30. Same thing would happen. The guy also just lost 5 of his 15 use Silver Blade. Otherwise, he would have just done 10 damage, which is the same he would have done normally at the cost of 2.5 more weapon uses. Overall on a normal scale, a 6RKO, while Calill would just die. This is infinitely better, and I'm positive it reflects upon other enemies as well.

To better compare her defensive parameters, lets take Largo for his bad durability. Calill there has 15 less HP a,d only 2 more defense than what Largo's got AT BASE. Granted she has a 26 avoid lead over him, but there are plenty of lancers endgame where he can close it to 16 with WTA, and further boost his durability.

So if it's easy to kill Largo...

Speaking of the Knight Ward, considering every other unit should be more concerned about offense and should have it by now, there's no reason not to give it to a tank like Brom. It just makes him even harder to kill with a +2 to his defense and resistance. This would reduce the damage Astra does to 1 (1x3x5=15, 4RKO), and a normal hit would do 3 (3x3x2=18, 3RKO oddly enough). It would be devestating to have someone as tanky as that running around being a bullet magnet. I'd consider this sheer durability better than Calill having slayer effect.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Vykan12]

Brom above Calill. I'm not even sure why he was below her to begin with.

I want some agreement on Tormod vs Ranulf before making a change.