FE9 Tier List v2

[-Cynthia-]

Rhys I can see happening, but Ilyana at least has decent offense (better than Soren's when both or neither double)for a while, she has insta-Elthunder, and has just enough Str not to be weighed down by everything from Wind to Bolting.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second part. Ilyana is weighed down by Bolting most of the time, and Elthunder is weighing her down at base as well.

Though you do have a point about Ilyana having higher Str, she isn't quite as forge dependednt as Rhys. If Rhys doesn't use a forge (light tomes are majorly expensive by the way), his AS issues are so bad he's risking getting into doubled range, much less Rhys doubling stuff.

I could see Ilyana>Rhys. Ilyana can get staves in only 2 chapters after she joins, and once she gets staves, she's> Rhys (higher Atk due to better weapon, more durable once supports come into play, usually a little more AS, less forge dependent). Rhys does have some earlygame chapters on her, but we do have issues utilizing his staff utility early on. He has to be walled off at all times, which is difficult to do in chapters like C4 and C6. Even when we do wall him off, enemies with ranged weapons can still hit him, if 2 do this he's dead, if one does he has to waste a turn using a Vulenary. He's obviously a +, but I'm not sure this makes up for losing from C11 onwards.

The thing is, Ena helps out with Ashnard in case Ike gets screwed, and both are decent walls for the chapter beforehand. As for Ulki vs. Bastian/Lucia, I could definitely see either Ulki dropping below both of them or those two moving up to above him.

Ena helping out with Ashnard is pretty situational though. Nasir and Ena could theoretically wall off the laguz, but considering they have 5-6 Mov, they won't be getting into enemy attack ranges earlier than anyone else.

I could see a case for Ulki being the worst unit in the game, though he does have advantages over the bottom tier. He's more durable and has more Mov. Though once you add in gauge issues and inferior offense it gets pretty close.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm not sure what you mean by the second part. Ilyana is weighed down by Bolting most of the time, and Elthunder is weighing her down at base as well.

Though you do have a point about Ilyana having higher Str, she isn't quite as forge dependednt as Rhys. If Rhys doesn't use a forge (light tomes are majorly expensive by the way), his AS issues are so bad he's risking getting into doubled range, much less Rhys doubling stuff.

I could see Ilyana>Rhys. Ilyana can get staves in only 2 chapters after she joins, and once she gets staves, she's> Rhys (higher Atk due to better weapon, more durable once supports come into play, usually a little more AS, less forge dependent). Rhys does have some earlygame chapters on her, but we do have issues utilizing his staff utility early on. He has to be walled off at all times, which is difficult to do in chapters like C4 and C6. Even when we do wall him off, enemies with ranged weapons can still hit him, if 2 do this he's dead, if one does he has to waste a turn using a Vulenary. He's obviously a +, but I'm not sure this makes up for losing from C11 onwards.

Ena helping out with Ashnard is pretty situational though. Nasir and Ena could theoretically wall off the laguz, but considering they have 5-6 Mov, they won't be getting into enemy attack ranges earlier than anyone else.

I could see a case for Ulki being the worst unit in the game, though he does have advantages over the bottom tier. He's more durable and has more Mov. Though once you add in gauge issues and inferior offense it gets pretty close.

I can agree with Ilyana > Rhys. Light magic is TERRIBLE.

[CT075]

I'm not sure what you mean by the second part. Ilyana is weighed down by Bolting most of the time, and Elthunder is weighing her down at base as well.

I understand this. My point was that, unlike Soren, she can actually use her weapons without her AS getting dropped by significant amounts.

Though you do have a point about Ilyana having higher Str, she isn't quite as forge dependednt as Rhys. If Rhys doesn't use a forge (light tomes are majorly expensive by the way), his AS issues are so bad he's risking getting into doubled range, much less Rhys doubling stuff.

I could see Ilyana>Rhys. Ilyana can get staves in only 2 chapters after she joins, and once she gets staves, she's> Rhys (higher Atk due to better weapon, more durable once supports come into play, usually a little more AS, less forge dependent). Rhys does have some earlygame chapters on her, but we do have issues utilizing his staff utility early on. He has to be walled off at all times, which is difficult to do in chapters like C4 and C6. Even when we do wall him off, enemies with ranged weapons can still hit him, if 2 do this he's dead, if one does he has to waste a turn using a Vulenary. He's obviously a +, but I'm not sure this makes up for losing from C11 onwards.

Oh good, we agree.

Ena helping out with Ashnard is pretty situational though. Nasir and Ena could theoretically wall off the laguz, but considering they have 5-6 Mov, they won't be getting into enemy attack ranges earlier than anyone else.

The only really good walls against laguz (Generals) have the same move, though, so that's not much of a problem. Paladins and Ike work well, too, but out of those, only Ike really has enough avo to avoid Tigers reliably.

I could see a case for Ulki being the worst unit in the game, though he does have advantages over the bottom tier. He's more durable and has more Mov. Though once you add in gauge issues and inferior offense it gets pretty close.

I could see that too. Gauge and worst offense in the game being his main problems. His avo is less than stellar, too, even with Vigilance.

[grandjackal]

Yeah, but Ena and Nasir have clutch uses while Ulki doesn't have that luxury. His offense is pretty awful. What I'd want in exchange is durability, but even that warrents trouble what with his triple weakness.

To be honest, I could see Ulki in bottom as well.

[Vykan12]

Nasir doesn't have a clutch use. Ike has to be good (as in not horribly RNG screwed) in order to unlock him, so resolve!Nasir isn't speeding up the final or anything like that.

Rhys for low-mid huh... he has a healing monopoly until Mist joins, then stands as your best healer (base Mist is less durable) until a magic user promotes. You guys are placing too much emphasis on his combat IMO.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Nasir doesn't have a clutch use. Ike has to be good (as in not horribly RNG screwed) in order to unlock him, so resolve!Nasir isn't speeding up the final or anything like that.

Rhys for low-mid huh... he has a healing monopoly until Mist joins, then stands as your best healer (base Mist is less durable) until a magic user promotes. You guys are placing too much emphasis on his combat IMO.

Thing is, if we do early Seal, it won't be very long until they promote(C11 and another can in C12). And once 2 of Mist/Ilyana/Soren promote, there's really no need for Rhys anymore.

Anyway, point is that I think Ilyana>Rhys and if Ilyana should go in Lower Mid(which I agree with), so should Rhys.

[Vykan12]

Rhys doesn't just drop because there's other healers who are better than him. By that logic, Geoffrey's terrible.

I'm not sold on Ilyana > Rhys either. A 10/1 Ilyana has 12 AS and a 30% growth, so she won't even be doubling that much more than Rhys. Where does she have an advantage overriding Rhys' earlygame healing?

[-Cynthia-]

Rhys doesn't just drop because there's other healers who are better than him. By that logic, Geoffrey's terrible.

I'm not sold on Ilyana > Rhys either. A 10/1 Ilyana has 12 AS and a 30% growth, so she won't even be doubling that much more than Rhys. Where does she have an advantage overriding Rhys' earlygame healing?

Staff users are a bit different than combat units in the sense that after 2 we really don't gain any more efficiency, becuase we shouldn't need to heal more than 2 people each round.

Ilyana isn't great at doubling(probably why she shouldn't be a tier above people who can), but she is significantly faster than Rhys.

10/1 Ilyana has 12 AS with a thunder or forged thunder/ 10 AS with Elthunder

10/1 Rhys has 5 AS with a basic light tome, 8 AS with a Min Wt forge.

So yeah, when Ilyana isn't doubling, Rhys is in danger of getting doubled, which is obviously bad. Rhys does have 10% higher growth, but this won't make up a 4 AS deficit anytime soon, not to mention Rhys's Str issues.

Ilyana's more durable too. At 10/1 she's got 1 HP/2 Def/11 Avo over him. This gap only widens with supports, Ilyana can get 2-3 Def from Mordecai or Gatrie and 10-15 Avo from Zihark, Rhys is getting +1 Def and 5 Avo at best from Titania/Kieran who don't match his Mov well anyway.

Rhys does have a small Mag lead, but this is pretty much canceled out by Ilyana having higher Mt tomes, plus she can hit for effective damage.

I think winning a direct comparison for almost all their availability> a few chapters of earlygame utility.

Edited August 1, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

Rhys also doesn't need to promote at 10. He isn't begging for combat since healing is his main attribute, and he would probably have a level lead on Ilyana despite that.

So yeah, I can't see Ilyana > Rhys at all.

[-Cynthia-]

Rhys also doesn't need to promote at 10. He isn't begging for combat since healing is his main attribute, and he would probably have a level lead on Ilyana despite that.

So yeah, I can't see Ilyana > Rhys at all.

If Rhys doesn't promote early, then we're comparing a unit who can fight+heal with more durability against a unit who can only heal, Ilyana's beating him even more.

I don't see Rhys pulling a very significant level lead. Earlygame chapters are very short (C2 has a max BEXP limit of 5 turns, C4 4 turns, the two defense maps have a rather limited turn count as well). Rhys can't even heal every turn, like the first turn or when moving out to heal would expose him to enemies, or if he needs to pop a Vulenary. I see Rhys being about the same level as Ilyana at jointime. Then, he can more easily heal a unit every turn than she can kill a unit every turn, but he also only gets about ~1/9 of a level for healing, she gets ~1/3 of a level for killing.

Edited August 1, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Note that light tomes are only buyable in C14 so Rhys promoting before that is foolish. I don't know why you want to move Rhys to lower-mid based on this since Ilyana is already in upper-mid. Is there a reasonable case for Calill/Geoffrey/Brom > Rhys?

Edited August 2, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Note that light tomes are only buyable in C14 so Rhys promoting before that is foolish. I don't know why you want to move Rhys to lower-mid based on this since Ilyana is already in upper-mid. Is there a reasonable case for Calill/Geoffrey/Brom > Rhys?

I mainly just want Ilyana>Rhys since after looking at the stats Ilyana seems to be the pretty clear winner. You mentioned something about moving Ilyana down a tier, so if you want do that Rhys would have to move down too obviously if he's < Ilyana. The comparisons to people below them are tricky, since Rhys and Ilyana are both losing offense/durability, but they have staves and availability to make up for it, so it's highly debatable.

Edited August 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

You misinterpreted me then. I wanted Calill and Geoffrey in upper-mid. Maybe adding a mid tier could clean up the oversized up-mid and low-mid.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

You misinterpreted me then. I wanted Calill and Geoffrey in upper-mid. Maybe adding a mid tier could clean up the oversized up-mid and low-mid.

Whoops. Adding Geoffrey and Calill to Upper Mid would make Upper Mid pretty large though, I think a Mid tier is a good idea. Of course, then the issue is where we draw "the lines". How about:

Middle

Ilyana

Rhys

Geoffrey

Calill

Brom

Devdan

?

[CT075]

Whoops. Adding Geoffrey and Calill to Upper Mid would make Upper Mid pretty large though, I think a Mid tier is a good idea. Of course, then the issue is where we draw "the lines". How about:

Middle

Ilyana

Rhys

Geoffrey

Calill

Brom

Devdan

?

Sounds good to me. Only issue with that is I can see Devdan > Brom. I'm too lazy and pressed for time to write out a long argument so I'll just say the basics.

Both

Both need some sort of speed boost to function well later.

Both are lancers with decent durability.

Devdan

+He comes at a time when he can double most generic enemies (barring myrms)and usually one-rounds them.

+He's relatively low resource when it comes to forges and such until he stops doubling since he starts out pretty great with generic weaponry.

+He's decently durable and has enough speed to avoid getting doubled, even without the KW.

+Uses Resolve decently, as another way to increase his speed.

-He needs either a Speedwing or the KW to continue doubling throughout the game. (That or Resolve, which is probably oing to someone else)

-Overleveled, therefore growing slowly,

Brom

+Comes as the first AK that hasn't run away to become a bodyguard.

+Has better concrete defenses than Devdan.

+Becomes durable to a fault later on in the game.

-Comes at a time when he is in danger of getting doubled.

-Is too durable to use Resolve

-Weakness to Hammers, as well as a godawful Res stat.

Unless I'm missing something (I'm tired), Devdan is the clear winner.

[Vykan12]

For the record, I hate +/- lists. Devdan could have a single + that overrides all of Gatrie's and then some, for instance.

Anyway, the reason Devdan is > Gatrie is purely because of AS. He starts with 13, Gatrie starts with 5, and Devdan wins in growth too. Although Gatrie does level faster and has slightly more playtime, he's never going to cover that gap.

[-Cynthia-]

For the record, I hate +/- lists. Devdan could have a single + that overrides all of Gatrie's and then some, for instance.

Anyway, the reason Devdan is > Gatrie is purely because of AS. He starts with 13, Gatrie starts with 5, and Devdan wins in growth too. Although Gatrie does level faster and has slightly more playtime, he's never going to cover that gap.

Umm, Master Gordin was arguing Devdan>Brom...

[grandjackal]

I've no reason why he was using Resolve as an argument point either.

Anyways, I think this is one of those "Never going to get above" deals. Brom just has more time to fix his problems, better affinity, better supports...

I think the only real advantage Devden has on him is not needing effort to be who he is at join time, and that's it.

[CT075]

I've no reason why he was using Resolve as an argument point either.

I've actually seen someone use Brom Resolve as an argument. I've seen it for a Devdan defense, too. So I'm just showing how I think that it's ridiculous.

[Dat Nick]

Brom fits the bill for Resolve just fine: Excellent durability and more than enough AS to double when resolved. I don't see any reason he wouldn't be a prime candidate for it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Resolve can be placed on a character starting on C28. A bit late to consider it on anyone that isn't Ike, Nasir or Ena.

[-Cynthia-]

Brom fits the bill for Resolve just fine: Excellent durability and more than enough AS to double when resolved. I don't see any reason he wouldn't be a prime candidate for it.

He's so durable he has problems getting to half health, which is why Tauroneo isn't higher.

Anyway, I have no idea why Resolve for either of them is being discussed. It's only available for like 2 chapters, and neither of them are going to get it probably, since they can't hurt Ashnard.

As for the rest of the negatives against Brom, most of them are pretty unimportant. Brom doesn't get doubled very much at base, in Ch11 one theif doubles him for 0 damage, the only other enemy who doubles him is the boss. Hammers are really uncommon, I counted like 4 in all Brom's chapters combined. Brom's Res isn't so good, but mages are uncommon, and Devdan isn't much better. For example, a 20/1 Brom who has B's with anybody ties a base Devdan in Res, it's a pretty insignificant lead on Devdan's part.

One thing not mentioned is supports, Brom's are better since they start sooner, give out better bonuses (Water>Fire), and he has more likely partners (Zihark and Boyd> Tormod and Largo). Brom is also little stronger(and likely more potential +Atk from supports), and also has partial WTC.

Devdan has more speed at base, but Brom can fix his speed more easily with the KW due to more levelups. For instance, if Brom gets the KW every other level he'll have 15 AS at 20/1, which is 2 more Spd than base Devdan. Brom's probably promoting fairly close to Devdan's jointime, so they should have pretty similar AS IMO.

Really, the only wins I see for Devdan are 1 Mov(eh) and he wins while Brom is unpromoted, which is a rather small window compared to their overall availability.

Edited August 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Whoops. Adding Geoffrey and Calill to Upper Mid would make Upper Mid pretty large though, I think a Mid tier is a good idea. Of course, then the issue is where we draw "the lines". How about:

Middle

Ilyana

Rhys

Geoffrey

Calill

Brom

Devdan

?

I disagree with Rhys < Ilyana. Earlygame healing = win as earlygame is the hardest part of the game (Lol chapter 4's 4 turn bexp limit), not to mention he doesn't even need a master seal to get healing. Not using resources = win. A level 13/1 Rhys has 19 Atk/10 AS with a forged light tome (-wt), level 10/1 Ilyana has 20 Atk/12 AS with a forged thunder tome (+Mt). That's very similar, yet Rhys' higher healing output makes him the better healer as both have fail durability (Rhys has 27 HP/5 Def, Ilyana has 26 HP/6 def. Both are very similar, although Rhys can have 6 Def with C Titania). All this includes band usage.

So even directly after promotion, Ilyana's leads are miniscule, yet Rhys' healing lead matters (Rhys heals 5 more with the same stave, but can use mend).

Overall, I'd say Rhys' lead at the start of the game outweighs Ilyana's leads near the end (Though Rhys always heals more and is better against mages)

[Vykan12]

Umm, Master Gordin was arguing Devdan>Brom...

*Smacks self*

Brom and Devdan have more similar AS than Gatrie vs Devdan, but then Brom's also many times more durable and gives much better outgoing supports.

[grandjackal]

So, anyone else think Ranulf could go above Tormod?