Stat-up Priorities

[grandjackal]

FE10 is a resource-concentration game. We've really nothing to gain from selling a stat booster, and in fact we could get a LOT out of stat boosters. Therefore there should be priorities on who gets them. Say take from the team all you want, btu a stat booster can have just as profound effect of a character as a promotion item can, thanks to the BEXP system. However, we also have to keep in mind on who can put them to the best use for the longest time. So...I just wanna start with Part 1 to keep it simple, as they have the smallest army.

Seraph Robes: DB gets 2. First one comes in a treasure chest in 1-4, the other Raphael brings into 1-8. Who gets priorities on these?

Suggestions: Michaiah's undoubtedly getting the first one for Sacrifice healing. However, I suppose Aran or Eddie wouldn't mind. I suppose Meg would WANT one, but whether she actually GETS it or not...Low priority.

Second one, Jill's getting her grubby hands on it. She wants the durability faster. Others I suppose are Fiona to make it easier to train her, but otherwise...Can't really see many others begging for this one exactly.

Energy Drop: 1-2 Chest. Priorities-Eddie for the Str to wield the Steel Sword without speed loss, doubling with it on top of +2 to his might, surely he would be pretty maddening with this for a bit. Tier 2 would feel the effects as he'd cap Str sooner, so he can be BEXPd sooner at level 10. Weird how he's a swordmaster with skill and speed being problem areas. He's more like a mercenary really. Anyways, other cantidates are Leo for stronger chip damage, Jill to be able to double things off the bat with hand axes, Tormod if you're REALLY into him and want to BEXP him to insanity. I see Eddie being top priority, though Jill has a nice case against him.

Spirit Dust: 1-7, Aimee's bargains. Basically, to justify this, you'd need to show just how much money isn't an issue for the DB, or be able to justify this as useful as a forge. However, the only one who can put this to great use as soon as possible is Tormod, as he's the only mage doubling at that point. Yeah...Have fun with that.

Secret Book: Same as Spirit Dusts, you'd have a hard time justifying your decision on buying this. On a grand scale, Nolan benefits the best as it lets him cap Skill in tier 2 2 levels sooner. Otherwise...Jill has hit issues? I dunno, you could give to to Aran to have him cap skill sooner. Either way, it's a rediculous purchase, and should only be considered for part 3 transfer, or BEXP abusing.

Speedwings: 1-E chest. NOW we got a difficult one. We could give it to Fiona to make it easier to train her, we could give it to Meg along with a Goddess Icon to make tier 2 insane with BEXP to boost her up significantly in her problem areas, we could give it to Tormod so when he caps Speed and Str at the same time for the same reasons...But the obviously best user for this has to be Nolan. Caps speed sooner to give a greater excuse to crown him, lets him double things like hawks and cats that much sooner, makes him so much easier to use part 4. Absolutely no reason not to give it to Nolan, unless we went through the hurdles of Aran to allow him to actually double part 4...But you jumped through enough hoops for him as is to get him that far.

Ashera Icon: Base convo with Vika. I'm gonna be dead honest. I can't see anyone putting this to any real use. I suppose if Aan or Zihark's luck is being a problem, you could patch it up. Could give it to Meg to make her hyper BEXP abusable tier 2, but I see no point in doing that at all. Top priority for this one is your bank account. If it's that much a problem for someone in the GM, I suppose you could transfer it.

Dracoshield: 1-P, Leo comes with it. This one is pretty damn important, as it can change the face of 3 characters incredibly. Eddie could use it off the bat and help get to be a bit less sucky at the start and thus easier to train, we could give it to Nolan to make him that much tankier off the bat, we could give it to Aran to get the epic tank we want that much sooner, or we could give it to Jill who will be helped along just like Eddie would with the problem of joining 6 chapters later. Pretty hard to decide who gets top priority for this one...

So..Thoughts?

[Interceptor]

I only have a comment on one of them for the time being: the best candidate for the 1-2 Energy Drop is probably Volug. It allows him to OHKO the Fire Mages you run into (aka, he doesn't take a counter), increases his ORKO range in general, and gives him a leg-up for long-term use for Endgame (a Drop is like 8 levels worth of STR for him, he does not grow very quickly).

[grandjackal]

I only have a comment on one of them for the time being: the best candidate for the 1-2 Energy Drop is probably Volug. It allows him to OHKO the Fire Mages you run into (aka, he doesn't take a counter), increases his ORKO range in general, and gives him a leg-up for long-term use for Endgame (a Drop is like 8 levels worth of STR for him, he does not grow very quickly).

You have a good point there. It does have to contend with helping Jill be better faster, or helping Eddie pull epic early offense out his ass, but I suppose the effects are far more profound on Volug.

Anyways, discovered something silly about the spirit dust. Did you know Fiona with Spirit Dust can use Cards to greater effect than most physical weapons in her arsenal, even forges? To give you an idea on how bad her Str is. However, Cards also have the benefit of bypassing another problem she has, terrible hit. You'd need to add 35 hit onto a Javelin to get the same hit, which just can't happen. On top of this, it helps make Imbue stronger.

So...Stat-up that has generally no competition and helps her be easier to train. Does this help her a lot? Hell no, but it's there.

Anyways, Part 2.

There are no Seraphs Robes.

Energy Drop-2-F, dropped by enemy. I've no idea where this dude is, but it can easily be assumed it's either going to the mercs due to it being too late for part 2, or going with the CRK. I'll get to the mercs when I do, but for the CRK? Heavily competed for. Elincia essentially gets 4 damage out of it like a Laguz, Marcia wants it for obvious reasons, as does Neph (though she has the benefit of having time with the mercs, she's not in a hurry), helps Nealuchi land kills he normally wouldn't get (and helps him suck less part 4 where he's forced), Heather to help her lift stuff off people, Lethe as she doeos have badass potential part 3, Keiran to cap Str at the same time as HP to make him BEXP abused a level to easily excuse him to a crowning and generally cutting down on how much effort is needed for his part 4 performance, Makalov for surprisingly the same reason except replace HP with Speed (I'd argue Mak actually having speed makes him a bigger priority because of it), even goddamn Danved. As you can see, they'd squabble like mad over it. OVerall though, top priority is Marcia, though Neal's got a case, and Mak could put it to good use.

No Spirit Dust

Secret Book-2-2, Steal from Maraj.

Haar can use it and BAM, he'd get more out of BEXP levels than actual combat levels. Keiran can use it to max Skill tier 2, giving him a couple more BEXP powered level ups or just giving him another excuse to be crowned, Calill can use it to cap skill only after 5 levels for BEXP boosts (most likely Magic, Speed and Luck, her most wanted stats), but then there's Danved. It's equal to 7 levels to him, and let's him cap it 7 levels sooner, so when he caps HP he can be BEXPd like usual and cap speed, meaning you could crown him to speed up the effort.

Top Priorities: Calill, Danved.

Speedwing: Ohhh, part 2 this is just a hard sucker. You see...No one in part 4 really benefits form this, at least not so much as to be distinguishable in use from one another after it's use. Only Keiran I suppose, as it lets him actually cap it around the same time he caps HP, where you could just BEXP his str and def to cap, which again is just another excuse to crown him, and reduce the effort needed for his uses in part 4. Keiran is easily the most flexible in stat booster use.

Ashera Icon-2-1 Norther House.

Again, no one really benefits from this in the short term. Best you're getting is Astrid capping luck at level 18. Good news is with BEXP considered, this would actually score her 2 Str, Skill and Speed. However, getting her to 18 is ludicrous, but if you can pull it off by part 4, she could actually be semi-usable.

Dracoshield-2-F, steal from enemy

Again, problem is how late it comes. Problem is, everyone benefits noticeably from this, most notably Makalov and, surprise, Keiran. However, I'd say Neph's getting this for the entire long term.

Talisman: 2-2 from Elincia at base.

I'm actually surprised, the Talisman is not so cold cut after all. Lucia can pull epic stats right out her ass part 4 with this simple little trinket, but so can Calill once she hits the appropriate levels (though Lucia can just be BEXPd immediately part 4). If you got the Talisman, a Seraph Robe (plenty of them, not many really care), and a goddess icon (again, she's like the only one who cares), once she hits level 13 you could BEXP dump all the way to tier 3 for a truly epic silver knight. That's...a tad much though.

Top Priority: Lucia, Calill. Considering Lucia benefits faster, and that resistance isn't exactly a problem to Calill, Lucia is by far the best cantidate for it.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Progenitus]

Most stat boosters are too good to assume specific characters are going to get it, and thus you'll end up listing half the cast. For example, everyone benefits from a speedwing. The only people who don't are like, royals/swordmasters/couple others.

[grandjackal]

Most stat boosters are too good to assume specific characters are going to get it, and thus you'll end up listing half the cast. For example, everyone benefits from a speedwing. The only people who don't are like, royals/swordmasters/couple others.

Question is who benefits sooner? Example, speedwing allows Kyza off the bat to be able to double more often than even Haar. For part 3, his only viable competition for the speedwing is Ike himself. Benefit is nice, but who puts it to best use? Even Kyza has 26 AS from one speed wing, which doubles for basically all of part 3. 1 more speed, part 4 pre endgame included, another speed and he has uses pre-spirits endgame.

[_____]

Aran might want the Seraph Robe more than Jill. Jill can at least fly around and chuck Hand Axes until she levels up, but a Seraph Robe would help make up for Aran's mediocre HP growth and help him take a few more hits in Part 3.

[grandjackal]

Aran might want the Seraph Robe more than Jill. Jill can at least fly around and chuck Hand Axes until she levels up, but a Seraph Robe would help make up for Aran's mediocre HP growth and help him take a few more hits in Part 3.

I suppose it would help for his part 3, but it would also help for her part 4 AND 3 (cats and stuff).

[Progenitus]

Most stat boosters are too good to assume specific characters are going to get it, and thus you'll end up listing half the cast. For example, everyone benefits from a speedwing. The only people who don't are like, royals/swordmasters/couple others.

Question is who benefits sooner? Example, speedwing allows Kyza off the bat to be able to double more often than even Haar. For part 3, his only viable competition for the speedwing is Ike himself. Benefit is nice, but who puts it to best use? Even Kyza has 26 AS from one speed wing, which doubles for basically all of part 3. 1 more speed, part 4 pre endgame included, another speed and he has uses pre-spirits endgame.

*only Ike*? No, Titania with a speedwing will have Ike-level speed, which won't double everything, but everything she does double dies immediately. It could also help slower people like Boyd or Soren double far sooner. True, Kyza doubles earlier, but his att is still poor. People like Boyd and Soren double later, but when they do double they're 1RKOing. How will you argue which is better? Not to mention that Kyza, even with the speedwing, is still low tier material or so, whcih means he's not going to be played often enough to be serious competition.

Edited August 20, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Interceptor]

Most stat boosters are too good to assume specific characters are going to get it, and thus you'll end up listing half the cast. For example, everyone benefits from a speedwing. The only people who don't are like, royals/swordmasters/couple others.

This is a pretty pointless observation. It's possible (and not at all a bad idea) to seriously look at the relative impact that various stat boosters have on the people that might want to use them. It's not a matter of assuming that any one character "gets" a booster, it a matter of doing a cost/benefit analysis. To your specific example, there is a world of difference between a Speedwing on Titania and the same wing on Boyd, for instance.

[Progenitus]

Anyway, I find that assuming specific units are going to get specific stat boosters benefits the top tiers far more than the bottom tiers, and thus people end up assuming that the top tiers are always going to get those things. Bottom tiers will never get anything since the argument that "those stat boosters could have gone to a top tier instead!" is going to pop up. Basically, the rift between top and bottom will just grow even more, and it will also turn bottom/low tier debates into an availability argument rather than "whose stats are the most salvageable?" as it should be.

[grandjackal]

*only Ike*? No, Titania with a speedwing will have Ike-level speed, which won't double everything, but everything she does double dies immediately. It could also help slower people like Boyd or Soren double far sooner. True, Kyza doubles earlier, but his att is still poor. People like Boyd and Soren double later, but when they do double they're 1RKOing. How will you argue which is better? Not to mention that Kyza, even with the speedwing, is still low tier material or so, whcih means he's not going to be played often enough to be serious competition.

Forgot about Titania. However, 2 levels and a Crown gets you the same effect.

Even considering giving Boyd a speed wing, he doesn't really start reaching doubling speed until after 9 levels, of which enemy speed is starting to spike yet again. For Soren, even with a speed wing he's STILL screwed because even if he were to cap speed, he would STILL need to promote which would take a crown on TOP of that. 23 was doubling near the start of part 3, Soren will not be pulling doubling any time soon. If ever.

As for still being low tier material, I'd hardly call someone doubling with the power of Boyd with an iron axe, having 10 more HP, 5 more defense, 2 more resistance, about 11 more avoid (considering they both got speed wings) as "low tier". He caps speed only after 6 levels considering, 30 speed only thing unable to double is spirits in endgame. 1 Speedwing bought Kyza quite a bit of leeway. But either way, he's putting it to better use automatically than someone like Boyd, who supposedly would be better with a speedwing which isn't true until you promote him at level 20.

Also, nice to see you think Top Tiers will always be played. Rest of the tier list might as well not exist.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Progenitus]

Even considering giving Boyd a speed wing, he doesn't really start reaching doubling speed until after 9 levels, of which enemy speed is starting to spike yet again. For Soren, even with a speed wing he's STILL screwed because even if he were to cap speed, he would STILL need to promote which would take a crown on TOP of that. 23 was doubling near the start of part 3, Soren will not be pulling doubling any time soon. If ever.

As for still being low tier material, I'd hardly call someone doubling with the power of Boyd with an iron axe, having 10 more HP, 5 more defense, 2 more resistance, about 11 more avoid (considering they both got speed wings) as "low tier". He caps speed only after 6 levels considering, 30 speed only thing unable to double is spirits in endgame. 1 Speedwing bought Kyza quite a bit of leeway. But either way, he's putting it to better use automatically than someone like Boyd, who supposedly would be better with a speedwing which isn't true until you promote him at level 20.

Did you even read my entire post?

You're forgetting that Kyza's att is poor, which means even if he doubles, he's doing something like double 10s when the enemy has 40 or so HP. Someone like Boyd or Soren are hitting once for like 20. And Kyza's att never increases in a hurry.

And then when Boyd and Soren do start doubling, they're most liekly 1RKOing.

btw, why is Boyd at base level with no supports in that comparison? And you're also ignoring that Kyza doesn't level terribly fast, so he improves at a slower rate than Boyd.

Also, nice to see you think Top Tiers will always be played. Rest of the tier list might as well not exist.

wtf? When did I say top tiers are only played? I said that Kyza is still going to be a low tier (or at least, still pretty mediocre), and thus we can generally assume he's not played often enough to take the speedwing away from other people. Which means we can still generally assume we have a speedwing lying around. Of course if we're debating Kyza vs someone, then we can see how Kyza benefits with a speedwing.

I wish people would stop using strawmen against me. It's getting very tiring.

Edited August 21, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Interceptor]

Anyway, I find that assuming specific units are going to get specific stat boosters benefits the top tiers far more than the bottom tiers, and thus people end up assuming that the top tiers are always going to get those things. Bottom tiers will never get anything since the argument that "those stat boosters could have gone to a top tier instead!" is going to pop up. Basically, the rift between top and bottom will just grow even more, and it will also turn bottom/low tier debates into an availability argument rather than "whose stats are the most salvageable?" as it should be.

The fact that stat boosters tend to benefit high tier units more than low tier units is a symptom more often than a cause. In other words, many times a unit is excellent because they are particularly good with a specific stat booster. This is not Soviet Fire Emblem, there is no compulsion to share resources equally, and some units benefit far more than others. Uneven return on resources is how the game works. The facts are not subject to your approval.

Tier list are ostensibly supposed to be measuring how units help complete the game more efficiently, and every caveat you attach undermines that goal.

[grandjackal]

Did you even read my entire post?

You're forgetting that Kyza's att is poor, which means even if he doubles, he's doing something like double 10s when the enemy has 40 or so HP. Someone like Boyd or Soren are hitting once for like 20. And Kyza's att never increases in a hurry.

And then when Boyd and Soren do start doubling, they're most liekly 1RKOing.

btw, why is Boyd at base level with no supports in that comparison? And you're also ignoring that Kyza doesn't level terribly fast, so he improves at a slower rate than Boyd.

1x Warrior lvl 9 (Crossbow)

HP 41, Atk 28, AS 20, Hit 154, Avo 54, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Warrior lvl 9 (Steel Axe)

HP 41, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

3x Warrior lvl 10 (Steel Axe)

HP 42, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 130, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

2x Warrior lvl 11 (Steel Axe, one has Coin)

HP 42, Atk 35, AS 21, Hit 130, Avo 57, DEF 17, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

1x Halberdier lvl 11 (Steel Lance)

HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 135, Avo 55, DEF 19, RES 14, Crit 15, Ddg 15

3x Halberdier lvl 10 (Steel Lance)

HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 134, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 11 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 38, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 124, Avo 54, DEF 20, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 10 (Short Spear)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 109, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14 Lessee, Kyza's got 30 mt which is what Boyd would have with an iron axe. Would appear he's 2RKOing. With this same speed wing, Boyd's not doubling anyways and with an iron axe would 3RKOing warrios, and actually 4RKOing soldiers. Boyd needs to be the holy shit how the fuck did he get to level 17 so quick+speed wing to double. Needless to say, that's not gonna happen. Obviously though, Boyd will have something better to equip, but the fact is I was able to improve Kyza with the use of one item, while nothing I can give Boyd will make him better than what he is anyways. Only way he really improves is he has to promote.

2x Swordmaster lvl 9 (Steel Sword)

HP 34, Atk 26, AS 23, Hit 146, Avo 61, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 15

2x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Steel Sword)

HP 34, Atk 27, AS 24, Hit 149, Avo 64, DEF 17, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 16

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Wyrmslayer)

HP 34, Atk 29, AS 24, Hit 133, Avo 63, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 15 Even with a speed wing, these guys still for the most part double Boyd. They don't even double base Kyza. 6-9 damage per round to Kyza, 11-14x2 to Boyd, and with the fact they're sporting around 8-9 crit per shot on Boyd, Boyd actually has to be careful. Hell, 3 of these 5 can 2RKO Boyd. There is want, but then there is need...

Boyd's got his advantages, but a speedwing does nothing for him. I therefore have no reason to give it to him. If I give someone a stat booster, and there is no immediate effect, I pretty much just wasted it.

Speaking of which, rarely do I have to deal with a problem that Boyd has, but Kyza rarely if ever has to deal with-Missing.

wtf? When did I say top tiers are only played?

I wish people would stop using strawmen against me. It's getting very tiring.

Anyway, I find that assuming specific units are going to get specific stat boosters benefits the top tiers far more than the bottom tiers, and thus people end up assuming that the top tiers are always going to get those things. Bottom tiers will never get anything since the argument that "those stat boosters could have gone to a top tier instead!" is going to pop up. Basically, the rift between top and bottom will just grow even more, and it will also turn bottom/low tier debates into an availability argument rather than "whose stats are the most salvageable?" as it should be.

I think that's where you said it, when you said it would benefit people who are already gods anwyays. If they're already good, why give it to them?

Edited August 21, 2009 by Robo Ky

[_____]

I suppose it would help for his part 3, but it would also help for her part 4 AND 3 (cats and stuff).

I don't really know how much it's helping her Part 3. I don't know how many 2RKOs it'll turn into 3RKOs, but if it does that for a large majority of the enemies, I can see how giving it to her would be better.

It should be noted that she doesn't need help in Part 4, though, so bringing that up was a bit pointless.

[grandjackal]

I suppose it would help for his part 3, but it would also help for her part 4 AND 3 (cats and stuff).

I don't really know how much it's helping her Part 3. I don't know how many 2RKOs it'll turn into 3RKOs, but if it does that for a large majority of the enemies, I can see how giving it to her would be better.

It should be noted that she doesn't need help in Part 4, though, so bringing that up was a bit pointless.

Good point. I'd rather Aran facing everything better than her just being safer from cats and hawks.

[Progenitus]

Lessee, Kyza's got 30 mt which is what Boyd would have with an iron axe. Would appear he's 2RKOing. With this same speed wing, Boyd's not doubling anyways and with an iron axe would 3RKOing warrios, and actually 4RKOing soldiers. Boyd needs to be the holy shit how the fuck did he get to level 17 so quick+speed wing to double. Needless to say, that's not gonna happen. Obviously though, Boyd will have something better to equip, but the fact is I was able to improve Kyza with the use of one item, while nothing I can give Boyd will make him better than what he is anyways. Only way he really improves is he has to promote.

...

Did you even read my entire post?

You're forgetting that Kyza's att is poor, which means even if he doubles, he's doing something like double 10s when the enemy has 40 or so HP. Someone like Boyd or Soren are hitting once for like 20. And Kyza's att never increases in a hurry.

And then when Boyd and Soren do start doubling, they're most liekly 1RKOing.

btw, why is Boyd at base level with no supports in that comparison? And you're also ignoring that Kyza doesn't level terribly fast, so he improves at a slower rate than Boyd.

I know that a speedwing in early part 3 is likely not going to do anything for Boyd. That's why I said "when boyd.... start doubling". I even said it earlier here...

*only Ike*? No, Titania with a speedwing will have Ike-level speed, which won't double everything, but everything she does double dies immediately. It could also help slower people like Boyd or Soren double far sooner. True, Kyza doubles earlier, but his att is still poor. People like Boyd and Soren double later, but when they do double they're 1RKOing. How will you argue which is better? Not to mention that Kyza, even with the speedwing, is still low tier material or so, whcih means he's not going to be played often enough to be serious competition.

Implying that he won't double NOW even with the speedwing, but will eventually double.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Kyza shouldn't even be allowed to get a speedwing. If the improvement he gets from receiving a resource is larger than the improvement another unit would get from the same resource, it should at least be considered (unless of course he's still losing to that unit). I'm just saying that assuming *specific* units are getting specific resources is nonsense (again, there are some exceptions to this). Even if you can prove that Kyza getting a speedwing benefits him more than another unit, there are too many units who would actually benefit from said speedwing that assuming that Kyza will always get that speedwing is silly.

Boyd's got his advantages, but a speedwing does nothing for him. I therefore have no reason to give it to him. If I give someone a stat booster, and there is no immediate effect, I pretty much just wasted it.

You can't just think of the immediate effect, but long term effects need to be taken into consideration as well. For example, in part 1, Aran would probably see the greatest immediate effect from a dracoshield (or at least more than Nolan or Edward or something), but no one usually gives it to him anyway, since he cap rams def.

The moment Boyd does start doubling, he's 1RKOing. Kyza is never 1RKOing.

Speaking of which, rarely do I have to deal with a problem that Boyd has, but Kyza rarely if ever has to deal with-Missing.

forge

I think that's where you said it, when you said it would benefit people who are already gods anwyays. If they're already good, why give it to them?

What? The passage you quoted doesn't even say that at all. It says that top tiers end up benefitting from stat boosters more than bottom tiers, and we end up throwing that favoritism on the top/high/whatever tiers. The bottom tiers end up not getting those boosters, since the moment we do try to throw favoritism on bottom tiers, the argument "but it could have gone to *insert random high tier* and make them better!" pops up. Bottom tier arguments therefore end up being about who has more availability (and/or who is forced into more chapters to make small contributions), rather than who actually has more salvageable stats.

Anyway, only a few units don't actually benefit from stat boosters, and those are largely the royals (whose problems are availability and no 2-range). Even top tiers like some favoritism, at least in this game. Ike, for example, wouldn't mind a speedwing if he got spd screwed. Titania wouldn't mind a speedwing, period. Janaff/Ulki really enjoy an energy drop. Gatrie really wants the 3-3 crown. Mia really wants an earth support. And so on.

[Florete]

I agree with smash on this one. Too many units benefit from stat boosters for us to actually assume that anyone gets it. It's obviously smart to mention one character can use a booster to great effect, even better than anyone else, but assuming they always get it isn't right.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Kyza shouldn't even be allowed to get a speedwing. If the improvement he gets from receiving a resource is larger than the improvement another unit would get from the same resource, it should at least be considered (unless of course he's still losing to that unit). I'm just saying that assuming *specific* units are getting specific resources is nonsense (again, there are some exceptions to this). Even if you can prove that Kyza getting a speedwing benefits him more than another unit, there are too many units who would actually benefit from said speedwing that assuming that Kyza will always get that speedwing is silly.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

[Interceptor]

I agree with smash on this one. [...] This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

I'm confused as to where exactly in this thread someone is guilty of what smash is accusing them of. I don't see anyone saying that any specific unit is assumed to get anything. I see priorities and talk of relative benefit, but those are not the same thing.

[Narga_Rocks]

Just a note on the Soren thing. If we are devoted to the idea of making him good, getting him to level 11 (20 speed) and then making sure he gets bexp levels to reach 23 speed, crown him in 3-11 and give him a speedwing then. He hits 23 speed before promotion anyway, winging him in tier 2 is a waste since he still won't double much and once he gets promoted it doesn't help anymore. Bexp in the 3-8 base, 3-10 base, and 3-11 base should be enough usually for 23 speed. (Tied for second highest growth, 1.4x higher than his 4th highest growth.) Gets him 27 speed for 3-11.

Spoiler has more information than needed, not an actual spoiler.

So using tags since this is likely too much detail for the topic.

Doubles all but swordmasters in 3-11 and 3-E, even doubles those generals in 4-1. Somebody has to kill them, and a 29 magic Soren with an A anything and a forged fire can have 41 mt. With one point of magic in levels he may get during 3-11 or 3-E, he gets 42 mt and ORKOs all the generals but the 20 res guy. Even without it he ORKOs all the <= 18 res ones, so he gets 6 out of 10 (well, 7 out of 11, including the reinforcement). Basically bails on his str and def, so he'll likely never be 3HKOd by anything important, but the bexp helps his luck reach 16 despite the crown, so at least he'll be safe from a few things. 17 luck means the warriors can't crit him, and standing next to Ike 17 luck also means the 22 crit halbs can't, either. He's not exactly a bad idea for the 3-9 speedwing, except for the whole lacking enemy phase thing. Other units that nab the speedwing can put it to use more than just once a player phase and sometimes once on enemy phase. All he'd even need to get to level 11.7 by the end of 3-7 is a little under 1 level per chapter. I say 11.7 because the idea is to make the bexp cheap enough to be a reasonable amount. Like, what everyone else being slowplayed is using. Still needs 9 levels between the start of 3-11 and the end of 4-4 just to get the 30 speed to double most of the generals in 4-E-1, but with smacking down a general every player phase in 4-1 he's at least got a chance to get some of those levels. Needs 6 levels between the start of 3-11 and the end of 4-1 just to double 9 out of 14 generals in 4-4. Now that he probably has SS wind, he can use rexcalibur, but it's only 15 uses so it might not be the best of ideas. Anyway, at 20/7 he has let's say 34 magic, so his fire forge plus his support is 46 mt. He kills all but one sage with this. With that 46 mt, sadly he only kills 4 of the 14 generals. But Rexcalibur is 49 mt and kills 8 out of 14 generals. After a couple levels, 47 mt with forged fire gets 7 out of 14, and rexcalibur gets 9 out of 14. If he reaches 20/10 during the chapter, 36 magic and 30 speed means 48 mt with forged fire and 51 mt with rexcalibur. Rexcalibur kills all but the 27 speed guy now, and forged fire kills 11 out of 14. Also he gets the last sage with the forged fire now.

Trouble is, even with doubling all but 4 generals in 4-E-1, he's still only killing the 23 res guys. It is 20 out of 30, though. Another point of speed, another 2 points of magic, a forged fire kills all the 24 res guys, too. There's only the five 25 res guys remaining. There are some generals on wardwood, but Soren should at least be helpful on the cover tile ones, even if he doesn't KO it helps the other units.

Just saying, he accomplishes almost none of this if he gets a speedwing during tier 2, and accomplishes little while actually in tier 2 with 22 or 23 speed as well.

[Florete]

I agree with smash on this one. [...] This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

I'm confused as to where exactly in this thread someone is guilty of what smash is accusing them of. I don't see anyone saying that any specific unit is assumed to get anything. I see priorities and talk of relative benefit, but those are not the same thing.

Maybe not assuming any one unit gets it indefinitely, but just the thought that one unit should get it or is prioritized to get it doesn't really go with me. Smash is right, it will end leaning more in favor of the top tiers, since if a High/Top tier unit makes awesome use of an Energy Drop or something and we suddenly decide to assign this "priority" to them, when we're discussing two other characters that might be Low Mid or Low or something and mention what one can do with the Energy Drop to become good that the other can't it becomes "Well, he/she took it from Janaff, and Janaff has priority on it," and shit like that. The top guys just end up being favored more.

I'm going to stop right now because I don't feel like I explained it that well. I just don't really agree with "assigning" priority of stat boosters to certain units.

[grandjackal]

Not so, as it depends on the argument. Example being that Kyza again, as he benefits the most out of a speedwing. Ike pretty much doesn't need it, Titania can get the same results out of a crown, Haar won't be doubling any time soon regardless, and it's the same with Boyd. Kyza's anything but top tier for the GM.

Another example is the dracoshield Leo comes with. It could go to Nolan, but he's a tank with earth affinity. What does he need it for? Aran could actually show better returns out of using it than Nolan anyways. If anything, Nolan would prefer a speed wing. Making a godly unit godly does not get any return for me, I want a strong team overall as a strong team overall helps me move on faster. Aran again is anything but top tier. Saving it to give to the GM is quite a few chapters of not putting it to use, especially with how many forced chapters the DB have, and how little they can afford to have a bigger team.

There are many maps where many units are forced regardless. DB just has little room for many people, CRK just have few numbers regardless. Only team that really suffers is the GM, as the game just throws god modders at you. However, it's not like you'd give Janaff a speedwing, would you?

I want to see if a stat-up gets significant returns immediately to put them to the longest term use. If we're just gonna give everything to top tier GM, we might as well not have a tier list. Some people have ways to go from meh to actually pretty good in just one item, and get better returns out of them than top tiers (meh to good>great-great).

If this is how it's gonna go, just tier the game part by part, since this game is too broken to actually bother with a tier list on a whole.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Zkirsche]

Elincia would need the speedwing more than Kieran as she comes back needing the speed. It means she can start quadrupling and killing things much sooner.

[grandjackal]

Keiran doesn't care, because he could put several stat-ups to good use if he wants. Elincia can have the speed wings, though so would Makalov (I don't see Elincia returning until part 4), perhaps Danved as well.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Zkirsche]

The thing is, she needs it more, because she comes back later and doesn't have the opportunity to level-up with paragon in 3-9, 3-11 and 3-E.