Stat-up Priorities

[grandjackal]

The thing is, she needs it more, because she comes back later and doesn't have the opportunity to level-up with paragon in 3-9, 3-11 and 3-E.

kirsche here is proving my point.

Yes, Elincia "needs" it more, but my point is someone like Keiran, Makalov or Danved could put it to greater effect. If Elincia's problems can be solved with Paragon, she can use that instead. In the mean time, I'm getting longer effects from giving it to someone with more time. Besides, Amiti, Stun, and staffs help her get kills/exp for free. We could just put paragon on her for a bit if we choose to use her. She's not exactly a clutch unit on her route (that would be Tibarn), and we have plenty other staff users to choose from for endgame. On hte other hand, a speedwing could make these guys go from meh to good, while it is hte same for Elincia, thing is the other three would be good for longer, and thus they would put it to better use. Especially since all 3 of them have actual endgame potential, this would help them get to it that much sooner.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

The thing is, she needs it more, because she comes back later and doesn't have the opportunity to level-up with paragon in 3-9, 3-11 and 3-E.

kirsche here is proving my point.

Yes, Elincia "needs" it more, but my point is someone like Keiran, Makalov or Danved could put it to greater effect. If Elincia's problems can be solved with Paragon, she can use that instead. In the mean time, I'm getting longer effects from giving it to someone with more time. Besides, Amiti, Stun, and staffs help her get kills/exp for free. We could just put paragon on her for a bit if we choose to use her. She's not exactly a clutch unit on her route (that would be Tibarn), and we have plenty other staff users to choose from for endgame. On hte other hand, a speedwing could make these guys go from meh to good, while it is hte same for Elincia, thing is the other three would be good for longer, and thus they would put it to better use. Especially since all 3 of them have actual endgame potential, this would help them get to it that much sooner.

While I maintain Elincia with paragon in 4-2 fixes all her problems and makes her a goddess of destruction in 4-5 and 4-E, a speedwing lets her destroy even more on 4-2 earlier. Like, a third of the way through with paragon instead of two thirds of the way through the chapter. And that 3-9 speedwing only sits in the inventory in 3-11 and 3-E. It isn't like any of those other units will be doubling all that much in either of those chapters even with the speedwing. Then we have Elincihax in 4-E rather than low magic decent damage Elincia in 4-E. Plus with the whole paragon + crown strategy on Mak means 27 speed in 4-1/2 anyway. If you give him the speedwing in tier 2, it means he uses it for all of 2 chapters: 3-11 and 3-E. Once he caps tier 2 speed with either method, he may as well not have it. Capping speed earlier doesn't help as much in HM because we can't give him a massive bexp dump or anything. It just means we could crown him at a slightly lower level and still get 27 speed, but it slows down the growth of his other stats. As for Kieran, his spd growth is so slow he's still not going to be doubling much even with that crown. Danved maybe, but with being locked to lances he doesn't do very well. Maybe a bit of horseslayer action in 4-2, but that's it. There aren't even very many paladins there. Elincia puts it to much better use and has ~4 chapters vs. ~6 chapters. And don't forget the use Soren can put it to, either. With a crown followed by a wing in 3-11, he's doubling everything for the rest of part 3, and doubles a fair amount in part 4 as well. Trust me, if you like this "good for longer" thing, Soren's your man. Mak and Danved and Kieran aren't doubling everything but swordmasters in part 3 with it. Soren is.

Plus, in tier 3 Mak and Danved would've capped spd anyway. Elincia takes a pretty high level to get there, and she's much faster. Also, amiti is way better than braves. This good for longer thing you have going on isn't really a good for longer thing. It's more, good now, not as good anyway later. You are valuing 3 chapters immediately over 3 chapters later on. It's the same number of good chapters. Sometimes, giving a speedwing to Titania or Haar or Boyd is actually even more numbers of good chapters over other guys like Kyza or whatever. You aren't focusing on good for longer, you are focused on immediate use now at the cost of better later.

Oh, and Titania isn't getting there with just a crown.

a: The 3-3 crown going to Gatrie and the speedwing to Titania gets us two ORKOing units, a crown on Titania and a wing on Kyza gets us 1, and soon to be 0. I know you don't like making gods, but I'm not asking you to focus on one unit, I'm asking you to make many. While it's possible 1 god-unit would be slower than 4 or 5 rather good units, 3 or 4 god-units and a bunch of decent units is much faster.

b: Titania with a crown at level 18 gets you 24 speed. She has a 50% speed growth and extremely slow leveling and needs 25 speed already in 3-5. Then only needs 24 in 3-7, but 25 again in 3-8. So giving Titania the crown gets you a unit that one rounds for a bit and then doesn't anymore. Gatrie at least starts with 25 speed and doesn't much need 26 until like 3-10. Anyway, not crowning Titania lets her get that extra speed sooner and when she promotes naturally a speedwing Titania will have 27 speed. Very nice. Also 25 speed before promotion, which means doubling lots before promotion, too. A 20/3 Titania in fact has the 28 speed needed for 4-1. A few levels there sets her up for 4-4. Which also makes her ready for 4-E-1, and by then a few more levels and if she has 20/13 in 4-E-2 she can have 33 speed and double the warriors there. She gets very long reaching returns, and immediate returns as well. (23/24 speed lets her double more paladins and generals than 21/22 speed allows her to). Kyza stops at 30, so he's never doing all that endgame doubling she's doing. Also, he'd need to reach 28 speed for 4-P/1/2, so that's not easy with a 35% growth and rather slow leveling. Even if he just needs 1 point. Then he needs another 3 levels (6 total) to get the 30 speed for 4-4 that lets him double most things, except a few warriors and of course the swordmasters.

So no, the crown means balls to Titania, at least without also getting a wing. Ditto Haar, only more pronounced thanks to an even slower speed growth. At least a speedwinged Haar that promotes naturally (or crowning once he hits 24 speed) will start with 26 speed, good for the rest of part 3.

And all these units can do far far more than Kyza. Enemy phase with these guys either kills everything, or you can choose to weaken stuff. Either way, they speed you up more or help you level your other guys, including Kyza.

And that DB speedwing? You get it in mid 1-E. Let Ilyana hold it, you can use it on a GM from 3-2 until the end of the game. The DBs use it for half of 1-E, and 3 chapters in part 3.

So it's a good idea to let the GMs have that speedwing so they can get 9 chapters out of it vs. 3 and a half.

[Loki Laufeyson]

FE10 is a resource-concentration game. We've really nothing to gain from selling a stat booster, and in fact we could get a LOT out of stat boosters. Therefore there should be priorities on who gets them. Say take from the team all you want, btu a stat booster can have just as profound effect of a character as a promotion item can, thanks to the BEXP system. However, we also have to keep in mind on who can put them to the best use for the longest time. So...I just wanna start with Part 1 to keep it simple, as they have the smallest army.

Seraph Robes: DB gets 2. First one comes in a treasure chest in 1-4, the other Raphael brings into 1-8. Who gets priorities on these?

Suggestions: Michaiah's undoubtedly getting the first one for Sacrifice healing. However, I suppose Aran or Eddie wouldn't mind. I suppose Meg would WANT one, but whether she actually GETS it or not...Low priority.

Second one, Jill's getting her grubby hands on it. She wants the durability faster. Others I suppose are Fiona to make it easier to train her, but otherwise...Can't really see many others begging for this one exactly.

Energy Drop: 1-2 Chest. Priorities-Eddie for the Str to wield the Steel Sword without speed loss, doubling with it on top of +2 to his might, surely he would be pretty maddening with this for a bit. Tier 2 would feel the effects as he'd cap Str sooner, so he can be BEXPd sooner at level 10. Weird how he's a swordmaster with skill and speed being problem areas. He's more like a mercenary really. Anyways, other cantidates are Leo for stronger chip damage, Jill to be able to double things off the bat with hand axes, Tormod if you're REALLY into him and want to BEXP him to insanity. I see Eddie being top priority, though Jill has a nice case against him.

Spirit Dust: 1-7, Aimee's bargains. Basically, to justify this, you'd need to show just how much money isn't an issue for the DB, or be able to justify this as useful as a forge. However, the only one who can put this to great use as soon as possible is Tormod, as he's the only mage doubling at that point. Yeah...Have fun with that.

Secret Book: Same as Spirit Dusts, you'd have a hard time justifying your decision on buying this. On a grand scale, Nolan benefits the best as it lets him cap Skill in tier 2 2 levels sooner. Otherwise...Jill has hit issues? I dunno, you could give to to Aran to have him cap skill sooner. Either way, it's a rediculous purchase, and should only be considered for part 3 transfer, or BEXP abusing.

Speedwings: 1-E chest. NOW we got a difficult one. We could give it to Fiona to make it easier to train her, we could give it to Meg along with a Goddess Icon to make tier 2 insane with BEXP to boost her up significantly in her problem areas, we could give it to Tormod so when he caps Speed and Str at the same time for the same reasons...But the obviously best user for this has to be Nolan. Caps speed sooner to give a greater excuse to crown him, lets him double things like hawks and cats that much sooner, makes him so much easier to use part 4. Absolutely no reason not to give it to Nolan, unless we went through the hurdles of Aran to allow him to actually double part 4...But you jumped through enough hoops for him as is to get him that far.

Ashera Icon: Base convo with Vika. I'm gonna be dead honest. I can't see anyone putting this to any real use. I suppose if Aan or Zihark's luck is being a problem, you could patch it up. Could give it to Meg to make her hyper BEXP abusable tier 2, but I see no point in doing that at all. Top priority for this one is your bank account. If it's that much a problem for someone in the GM, I suppose you could transfer it.

Dracoshield: 1-P, Leo comes with it. This one is pretty damn important, as it can change the face of 3 characters incredibly. Eddie could use it off the bat and help get to be a bit less sucky at the start and thus easier to train, we could give it to Nolan to make him that much tankier off the bat, we could give it to Aran to get the epic tank we want that much sooner, or we could give it to Jill who will be helped along just like Eddie would with the problem of joining 6 chapters later. Pretty hard to decide who gets top priority for this one...

So..Thoughts?

Seraph Robes: I usually give one to Micaiah immediately because of her abysmal HP. The second usually goes to Jill.

Energy Drop: Hmmm. Fiona sometimes gets it but i have given it to Edward on a few occasions.

Spirit Dust: i dont buy it.

Secret Book: If im using Fiona (which i do alot..yeah yeah shut up) shes the one that gets it right off. Her base skill is pretty dumpy so yeah.

Speed Wings: Go to Micaiah. Her speed is shit and i would like her to double stuff. Only once has Micaiah actually had good speed RNG for me.

Ashera Icon: I usually let that one rot in the convoy until i get everybody.

Dracosheild: Edward (if im using him) gets that or i hold on to it until i find someone i think could use it.

[grandjackal]

The thing is, she needs it more, because she comes back later and doesn't have the opportunity to level-up with paragon in 3-9, 3-11 and 3-E.

kirsche here is proving my point.

Yes, Elincia "needs" it more, but my point is someone like Keiran, Makalov or Danved could put it to greater effect. If Elincia's problems can be solved with Paragon, she can use that instead. In the mean time, I'm getting longer effects from giving it to someone with more time. Besides, Amiti, Stun, and staffs help her get kills/exp for free. We could just put paragon on her for a bit if we choose to use her. She's not exactly a clutch unit on her route (that would be Tibarn), and we have plenty other staff users to choose from for endgame. On hte other hand, a speedwing could make these guys go from meh to good, while it is hte same for Elincia, thing is the other three would be good for longer, and thus they would put it to better use. Especially since all 3 of them have actual endgame potential, this would help them get to it that much sooner.

While I maintain Elincia with paragon in 4-2 fixes all her problems and makes her a goddess of destruction in 4-5 and 4-E, a speedwing lets her destroy even more on 4-2 earlier. Like, a third of the way through with paragon instead of two thirds of the way through the chapter. And that 3-9 speedwing only sits in the inventory in 3-11 and 3-E. It isn't like any of those other units will be doubling all that much in either of those chapters even with the speedwing. Then we have Elincihax in 4-E rather than low magic decent damage Elincia in 4-E. Plus with the whole paragon + crown strategy on Mak means 27 speed in 4-1/2 anyway. If you give him the speedwing in tier 2, it means he uses it for all of 2 chapters: 3-11 and 3-E. Once he caps tier 2 speed with either method, he may as well not have it. Capping speed earlier doesn't help as much in HM because we can't give him a massive bexp dump or anything. It just means we could crown him at a slightly lower level and still get 27 speed, but it slows down the growth of his other stats. As for Kieran, his spd growth is so slow he's still not going to be doubling much even with that crown. Danved maybe, but with being locked to lances he doesn't do very well. Maybe a bit of horseslayer action in 4-2, but that's it. There aren't even very many paladins there. Elincia puts it to much better use and has ~4 chapters vs. ~6 chapters. And don't forget the use Soren can put it to, either. With a crown followed by a wing in 3-11, he's doubling everything for the rest of part 3, and doubles a fair amount in part 4 as well. Trust me, if you like this "good for longer" thing, Soren's your man. Mak and Danved and Kieran aren't doubling everything but swordmasters in part 3 with it. Soren is.

Plus, in tier 3 Mak and Danved would've capped spd anyway. Elincia takes a pretty high level to get there, and she's much faster. Also, amiti is way better than braves. This good for longer thing you have going on isn't really a good for longer thing. It's more, good now, not as good anyway later. You are valuing 3 chapters immediately over 3 chapters later on. It's the same number of good chapters. Sometimes, giving a speedwing to Titania or Haar or Boyd is actually even more numbers of good chapters over other guys like Kyza or whatever. You aren't focusing on good for longer, you are focused on immediate use now at the cost of better later.

Oh, and Titania isn't getting there with just a crown.

a: The 3-3 crown going to Gatrie and the speedwing to Titania gets us two ORKOing units, a crown on Titania and a wing on Kyza gets us 1, and soon to be 0. I know you don't like making gods, but I'm not asking you to focus on one unit, I'm asking you to make many. While it's possible 1 god-unit would be slower than 4 or 5 rather good units, 3 or 4 god-units and a bunch of decent units is much faster.

b: Titania with a crown at level 18 gets you 24 speed. She has a 50% speed growth and extremely slow leveling and needs 25 speed already in 3-5. Then only needs 24 in 3-7, but 25 again in 3-8. So giving Titania the crown gets you a unit that one rounds for a bit and then doesn't anymore. Gatrie at least starts with 25 speed and doesn't much need 26 until like 3-10. Anyway, not crowning Titania lets her get that extra speed sooner and when she promotes naturally a speedwing Titania will have 27 speed. Very nice. Also 25 speed before promotion, which means doubling lots before promotion, too. A 20/3 Titania in fact has the 28 speed needed for 4-1. A few levels there sets her up for 4-4. Which also makes her ready for 4-E-1, and by then a few more levels and if she has 20/13 in 4-E-2 she can have 33 speed and double the warriors there. She gets very long reaching returns, and immediate returns as well. (23/24 speed lets her double more paladins and generals than 21/22 speed allows her to). Kyza stops at 30, so he's never doing all that endgame doubling she's doing. Also, he'd need to reach 28 speed for 4-P/1/2, so that's not easy with a 35% growth and rather slow leveling. Even if he just needs 1 point. Then he needs another 3 levels (6 total) to get the 30 speed for 4-4 that lets him double most things, except a few warriors and of course the swordmasters.

So no, the crown means balls to Titania, at least without also getting a wing. Ditto Haar, only more pronounced thanks to an even slower speed growth. At least a speedwinged Haar that promotes naturally (or crowning once he hits 24 speed) will start with 26 speed, good for the rest of part 3.

And all these units can do far far more than Kyza. Enemy phase with these guys either kills everything, or you can choose to weaken stuff. Either way, they speed you up more or help you level your other guys, including Kyza.

And that DB speedwing? You get it in mid 1-E. Let Ilyana hold it, you can use it on a GM from 3-2 until the end of the game. The DBs use it for half of 1-E, and 3 chapters in part 3.

So it's a good idea to let the GMs have that speedwing so they can get 9 chapters out of it vs. 3 and a half.

Yeah, instant is better! Why give someone an item when I don't feel the effects until later in the game? For Elincia it's fair game as none of the CRK really feel the effects until later either (save perhaps Danved), but for others, just holding onto something just so we can whore ourselves out to the GM is ludicrous. I'm not gonna hold onto the Dracoshield Leo starts with all the way until I give it to Illyana to ship over to them, and I'm not gonna bring Illyana to 1-E for the SOLE purpose of stuffing a wing into her inventory.

On the flip side of that is why give a speedwing to someone who's already doubling for the sole purpose of them doubling later? Everyone always says part 4 is piss easy, well if we need stat boosters to apparently god-like people, I see no reason to believe part 4 is that simple.

There's favoritism, but then there's wasting items.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, instant is better! Why give someone an item when I don't feel the effects until later in the game? For Elincia it's fair game as none of the CRK really feel the effects until later either (save perhaps Danved), but for others, just holding onto something just so we can whore ourselves out to the GM is ludicrous. I'm not gonna hold onto the Dracoshield Leo starts with all the way until I give it to Illyana to ship over to them, and I'm not gonna bring Illyana to 1-E for the SOLE purpose of stuffing a wing into her inventory.

On the flip side of that is why give a speedwing to someone who's already doubling for the sole purpose of them doubling later? Everyone always says part 4 is piss easy, well if we need stat boosters to apparently god-like people, I see no reason to believe part 4 is that simple.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking hard mode. Forgive me. Titania doubles great on easy. No, she doesn't need it.

Or we can talk about HM where she doubles virtually nothing without it ever.

Did you even read how the only way she's even doubling much in part 3 is mostly due to a speedwing?

Even in 3-2, there is instant gratification. 3-2, 3-3, 3-5. 3 chapters in which Kyza isn't using the speedwing.

21 speed. 50% speed growth. level 16 tier 2. Leveling really slowly. 2 levels is likely happening around 3-4 or something.

12 enemies in 3-2 already doubled with the speedwing that weren't without. Plus 10 reinforcements, as well.

In 3-3, 9 extra enemies. Only 3 extra reinforcements, though.

In 3-4, she has 22 speed, or 24 with the speedwing. Let's say she hits level 20 for 3-10, so she's got 24 speed until then. 22 without the wing.

17 enemies doubled with the speedwing that weren't without.

+ 1 reinforcement.

In 3-5:

21 enemies doubled with the speedwing that weren't without.

+ 14 reinforcements.

In 3-7:

13 enemies.

+ 8 reinforcements.

In 3-8:

14 enemies, one of which is the boss.

+ 5 reinforcements.

In 3-10, 23 speed without the wing, 25 speed with.

23 enemies doubled with the wing that weren't without.

+ 4 reinforcements (all)

In 3-11, let's say we crowned her, or since 3-10 has decent leveled enemies maybe she got enough exp to get a level in just one chapter. Or she got to 70 exp and we gave her a bit of bexp to promote.

25 speed without the wing, 27 speed with.

Only 5 enemies doubled thanks to the wing that weren't before, and just 1 reinforcement, but at this point, oh well.

3-E.

Only 8, and no reinforcements.

Still, pretty massive improvement with the wing, especially since she ORKOs like all these things now, and didn't before. And we can tailor her weapon selection now to bring things down to like 5 hp if we want rather than the 15 to 20 she'd leave some things at before.

As for part 4, the improvements continue, because a 20/2 Titania in 4-1 without the wing has 25 speed compared to 27 with. Also, she needs to be 4 levels lower to reach any doubling plateau than she would without. In other words, she can double loads of stuff forever without needing to grab paragon, and we can apply paragon to other units, spreading out the awesome. Other units like Elincia. More awesome.

As for Ilyana, there's multiple things you could do there.

A Steel Axe forge, maybe. Nolan could use the extra damage in 1-E in order to KO weakened stuff. Doesn't need that steel forge in part 3 where he has Tarvos. Save money for the GMs if Ilyana takes it from him towards the end of 1-E. There's a coin in a chest. Doesn't do anyone any good with the DB in part 3. A fire forge for Tormod to use since he misses a fair number of kills with his 7 mt elfire, and there can be hit issues thanks to stars. Doesn't do anyone any good with Tormod holding it until 4-4, doesn't do the rest of the DB any good in part 3. Ilyana can take it to the GMs for use by her or Soren there. Fire can't be forged in 3-2, by the way. Also, she's a mage. Better 2 range than any of your unpromoted units except Micaiah. Even Leo doesn't do as well thanks to low strength and the def/res gap. Also, she'll have more accuracy than hand axe/javelin/wind edge users. There's plenty of reasons to deploy her. The awesome that is having speedwing Haar and speedwing Titania alone is enough for that. The DB doesn't really need it for part 3, and otherwise we have rather limited high damage doubling options. Ilyana can do fine in 1-E for herself, we have a few deployment slots. It could go to Micaiah so she isn't doubled anymore, but we could instead just not let her be attacked. It could go to Aran, but he's never doubling anyway so it might mean not getting doubled by swordmasters. And 9 chapters vs. 3 and a half is a big mountain to climb.

The GMs goes much faster and easier if they have 2 speedwings. It doesn't even have to go to Haar and Titania if you don't want. Even your beloved Kyza could now get a speedwing without preventing one of Haar and Titania from getting it. Haar with a speedwing and a crown: High move, flight, doubling. Death from above. Have Heather steal the DB's 3-6 crown during 3-7. He should hopefully have 24 speed by 3-8 with a wing. 26 speed with crown. Better part 3, better part 4. Or Boyd, whatever.

And just to reiterate, how does Kyza apply to your "instant is better" philosophy? We sit on the 2-3 speedwing (since deploying Ilyana in 1-E is now a crime) and don't use it for anyone in 2-E, 3-2, 3-3. Not to mention, it goes to waste in 3-5 since Kyza isn't there. Out of 5 chapters you could be using it, Kyza uses it in 1. Wow.

There's favoritism, but then there's wasting items.

Speedwing Kyza in a nutshell.

Last thing:

Would you please quote where I ask you to:

"hold onto the Dracoshield Leo starts with all the way until I give it to Illyana to ship over to them"

My memory isn't perfect, but I know I didn't say that. That's twice in three days you've accused me of saying things I haven't said. At least this time it was indirect rather than direct.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[NinjaMonkey]

Seeing as I'm playing on easy, I just hoard my stat-ups until after I've allocated all my BEXP in 4-E5 (although I give Leanne 2 Seraph robes before I BEXP her to level 40, so she caps all her stats).

Edited August 23, 2009 by NinjaMonkey

[Mekkah]

Another example is the dracoshield Leo comes with. It could go to Nolan, but he's a tank with earth affinity. What does he need it for?

Oh, I don't know, more tanking in part 1 before his support is built up? Or maybe for 140 hit laguz in part 3?

[Narga_Rocks]

Another example is the dracoshield Leo comes with. It could go to Nolan, but he's a tank with earth affinity. What does he need it for?

Oh, I don't know, more tanking in part 1 before his support is built up? Or maybe for 140 hit laguz in part 3?

Yeah, it cuts down on the level requirement for being 3HKOd. Or it lets him keep the same level requirement as if he had an A level +def support but no longer needing a +def support. Either way, he can't be discounted so easily.

[grandjackal]

Did Aran suddenly vanish from the game?

[Narga_Rocks]

Did Aran suddenly vanish from the game?

You mean the guy that already has a decent chance at being 3RKOd by 39 mt tigers at 20/1 already? Really really good shot at 20/2?

No, he didn't vanish. I just thought having an extra guy be 3RKOd in 3-6 would be a good thing. Especially to a person who likes spreading goodness around while never creating greatness.

Besides, Aran starts with 24 hp and 11 def. Nolan starts with 29 hp and 9 def. In the interests of spreading goodness around, wouldn't it make sense to give it to Nolan? Aran does okay for himself with a few levels. Nolan starts at a higher level and less defence with a smaller def growth. Similar hp growth, too. (60 vs. 50). Two tanky characters > 1 slightly tankier character. Nolan needs the help more than Aran does, especially since the avo from Nolan's earth won't really help much until 3-12 and part 4. And as long as stuff still 3HKOs Aran he can be critblicked. Defence isn't helping there if the draco doesn't get him to 4HKO.

[grandjackal]

Did Aran suddenly vanish from the game?

You mean the guy that already has a decent chance at being 3RKOd by 39 mt tigers at 20/1 already? Really really good shot at 20/2?

No, he didn't vanish. I just thought having an extra guy be 3RKOd in 3-6 would be a good thing. Especially to a person who likes spreading goodness around while never creating greatness.

Besides, Aran starts with 24 hp and 11 def. Nolan starts with 29 hp and 9 def. In the interests of spreading goodness around, wouldn't it make sense to give it to Nolan? Aran does okay for himself with a few levels. Nolan starts at a higher level and less defence with a smaller def growth. Similar hp growth, too. (60 vs. 50). Two tanky characters > 1 slightly tankier character. Nolan needs the help more than Aran does, especially since the avo from Nolan's earth won't really help much until 3-12 and part 4. And as long as stuff still 3HKOs Aran he can be critblicked. Defence isn't helping there if the draco doesn't get him to 4HKO.

Aran happens to have a defense affinity on top of it.

Oh, now suddenly I gotta spread the wealth when you're telling me BS like giving Gatrie a wing and a crown? God, this is FE4 all over again.

[Florete]

Wait, are you suggesting giving the Dracoshield to Aran? Why the hell would you give +Def to the guy who cap rams it already? That'll have gone to waste rather soon. I'd rather give it to virtually anyone else, like Edward, Nolan, Jill, Nephenee, etc.

[Mekkah]

Dracoshield does help Aran a lot in 1-4 iirc(from vague memory, an extra round, and sometimes two in pretty much every scenario possible), and now he also needs less help/EXP for part 3. But he's likely more helped with a robe, I think.

[grandjackal]

Wait, are you suggesting giving the Dracoshield to Aran? Why the hell would you give +Def to the guy who cap rams it already? That'll have gone to waste rather soon. I'd rather give it to virtually anyone else, like Edward, Nolan, Jill, Nephenee, etc.

He doesn't actually cap it tier 1, but with it he now caps it as soon as he caps skill, meaning he'll have 2 stats capped at 18, meaning 2 BEXP levels to cap Str, give him 2 more HP, and I guess 1 speed and luck. This in turn also means he caps Str and Def sooner tier 2, which allows for juicier BEXP levels tier 2. Say he's using BEXP all you want, but he's putting it to use as much as anyone else would. Probably better, as now he basically has nothing else BUT HP, speed and luck to grow at that point. Moreover, it's not like you have to give him a lot, just enough for a crowning, which again won't be much.

Dracoshield does help Aran a lot in 1-4 iirc(from vague memory, an extra round, and sometimes two in pretty much every scenario possible), and now he also needs less help/EXP for part 3. But he's likely more helped with a robe, I think.

I'd actually think Nolan would want the robe. Basically Eddie, Nolan, Aran and Jill would want a robe. Robe comes 1-4 in a chest, so Jill having a chance isn't far off, due to only joinng after the next chapter. Aran getting hte dracoshield means he wouldn't need it, leaving only Eddie and Nolan. Obviously, Nolan would put it to better use, unless you could argue Eddie can get his defense through Leo support to make up for non-dracoshield. Basically it leaves Jill and Nolan being high priority for the robe. All Michaiah gets out of it is more powerful earlygame sacrifice healing, which isn't much of a return. Thing about the robe is that it boosts durability in a way a shield or a talisman can't, HP boosts defense against magic and physical. Since Nolan's got a crapload of HP, giving him more means he can basically laugh at mages. Nolan at level 12 with a Robe has 34 HP, 4 Res and 10 DEf. I'll give a comparison to mages, who only do 11 damage to him in 1-5. Without the robe, he gets 3RKOd. With, 4RKOd. See? Noticeable returns, thus Nolan is a fine cantidate for the robe.

4x Fighter lvl 11 (Steel Axe)

HP 30, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

Doing 16 damage. Would 2RKO him normally, but otherwise now with the robe he's getting 3RKOd. This helps, as these guys are the strongest dudes on the map.

For teh lulz, Robe helps Nolan cap HP at tier 2, 20/20.

Aran would not benefit as much, due to the whole magic deal, thanks to his generally lower HP and resistance. Nolan pretty much gets twice the benefits Aran would with the robe.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

He doesn't actually cap it tier 1,

If you can level him to 20 (or even 19, it's a 49% chance), he will. It's unlikely for him to get that high, but no one else has Def so high.

but with it he now caps it as soon as he caps skill, meaning he'll have 2 stats capped at 18, meaning 2 BEXP levels to cap Str, give him 2 more HP, and I guess 1 speed and luck. This in turn also means he caps Str and Def sooner tier 2, which allows for juicier BEXP levels tier 2.

So we're giving him earlier favoritism so that he can take more later. Right.

Say he's using BEXP all you want, but he's putting it to use as much as anyone else would. Probably better, as now he basically has nothing else BUT HP, speed and luck to grow at that point. Moreover, it's not like you have to give him a lot, just enough for a crowning, which again won't be much.

It seems you have this strange idea that using BEXP well > not using it all. I'd rather have a unit that doesn't need to use BEXP at all than one that sucks it all up.

I'd actually think Nolan would want the robe.

No, Nolan would want the Dracoshield. Characters basically would rather boost stats that are lower than the ones that are higher, and Nolan has pretty high HP as it is while having fairly low Def. Aran would want the Robe since he isn the opposite, 50% HP and 24 base is nothing special.

Basically Eddie, Nolan, Aran and Jill would want a robe.

Eddie? Are you serious? That's like the first stat he caps in both 1st and 2nd tier. At level 16, he already has a 44% chance of having it capped. That dude wants a damn Shield. Jill I'll give you though, she does want a Robe. Good thing part 1 has 2.

Nolan at level 12 with a Robe has 34 HP, 4 Res and 10 DEf. I'll give a comparison to mages, who only do 11 damage to him in 1-5. Without the robe, he gets 3RKOd. With, 4RKOd. See? Noticeable returns, thus Nolan is a fine cantidate for the robe.

One enemy type, and not a highly common one. Amazing.

Oh, and how does he have 34 HP with a Robe? Base level Nolan w/Robe would have 36.

4x Fighter lvl 11 (Steel Axe)

HP 30, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

Doing 16 damage. Would 2RKO him normally, but otherwise now with the robe he's getting 3RKOd. This helps, as these guys are the strongest dudes on the map.

And guess what? A Shield also changes it to a 3RKO.

[Interceptor]

Maybe not assuming any one unit gets it indefinitely, but just the thought that one unit should get it or is prioritized to get it doesn't really go with me. Smash is right, it will end leaning more in favor of the top tiers, since if a High/Top tier unit makes awesome use of an Energy Drop or something and we suddenly decide to assign this "priority" to them, when we're discussing two other characters that might be Low Mid or Low or something and mention what one can do with the Energy Drop to become good that the other can't it becomes "Well, he/she took it from Janaff, and Janaff has priority on it," and shit like that. The top guys just end up being favored more.

smash is only right inside of the very narrow corridor that he created for himself, aka the complete fiction that anyone in this thread is asserting that a particular unit is assumed to get something. Again: nobody actually said what he is repudiating. He may as well have said that kittens are cute, for all of the relevance that it has to the thread.

With regard to the issue of High/Top tiers, I will repeat my response again in different words: High/Top tier units are that high for a reason. One of the component parts of making them so good at beating the game is that they excel with resources. As evidence, look no further than a unit like Mia, who is a machine that converts favoritism directly into face-rape. Titania will take a Speedwing and start ORKO'ing left/right and center. Etc.

This is how the game works. Efficient resource distribution means uneven resource distribution. If the stated goal of a tier list is efficient completion, then ignoring the opportunity cost of taking a specific resource (aka, now I can't use a Drop on Janaff) runs completely counter to the that goal. It's obviously fine to have a tier list like that, but it needs to be stated up front, without ambiguity that the list is operating under such a restriction. You should probably title it "Soviet Fire Emblem" for flavor.

[grandjackal]

If you can level him to 20 (or even 19, it's a 49% chance), he will. It's unlikely for him to get that high, but no one else has Def so high.

I always recall people always saying DB units won't reach level 20 tier 1 on HM, and usually promote them at...18, right? Oh gee, whatdayaknow!

So we're giving him earlier favoritism so that he can take more later. Right.

Because Gatrie getting a speedwing after he's crowned is totally justified, amirite or amirite? This is the case for most. Do we just not give BEXP to anyone? Tell me now, so I'll know no one gets any of a resource we have readily available or which someone can put to better use than another, just so you'll win your arguments.

It seems you have this strange idea that using BEXP well > not using it all. I'd rather have a unit that doesn't need to use BEXP at all than one that sucks it all up.

We have it, why not use it? This game I recall focuses quite heavily on resource management, and BEXP is a resource.

No, Nolan would want the Dracoshield. Characters basically would rather boost stats that are lower than the ones that are higher, and Nolan has pretty high HP as it is while having fairly low Def. Aran would want the Robe since he isn the opposite, 50% HP and 24 base is nothing special.

Once we use said resource on him, his growth will slowly have it's effects fade away, whilst Nolan can actually keep it up. I am willing to bet the effects can be felt all the way to part 3 with Nolan. Hell, doesn't even help Aran as much. Aran can't use a robe and get a better deal against mages. Nolan literally gets twice the boost Aran would out of a robe.

Eddie? Are you serious? That's like the first stat he caps in both 1st and 2nd tier. At level 16, he already has a 44% chance of having it capped. That dude wants a damn Shield. Jill I'll give you though, she does want a Robe. Good thing part 1 has 2.

Indeed with the second robe.

As for Eddie capping HP, know what that means? He caps it so sooner, and if you look at his stats at level 13, you'd get this.

HP: 32, 13.4 Str, 17.85 Skill, 18.4 Speed, 12.5 Luck, 9.15+support defense, 3.8+support defense. More access to skills, +crit bonus for swordmaster

Might not seem like much, but do keep in mind his offense just got a major boost, and now has access to Paragon. I suppose my question then would be how fast you think he could get to level 13?

As for immediate boosts, he's got 28 HP and 7+2 def from possible B with Leo, and at least 1+1 res at level 10.

Mages do 13 damage to him, 3RKO. You'd otherwise need 23 ATK to 2RKO him. 7 enemies on the map, but keep in mind there aren't many in 1-5.

OK, Eddie getting the robe is grasping at straws, but hitting the cap sooner isn't necessarily bad. Let's say he caps HP. Now he's got one of his greater stats capped. This leaves Str, Skill and Speed as his most likely. He's got 7 levels. He can continue to be used normally. However, let's say he finished a battle, and he's near a level. With just a tidbit of BEXP (not pumping levels basically), there's nothing we would get that we wouldn't want from a BEXP level. Once he caps skill and speed, it's basically only STR, Luck and Def left. With this bit, that won't be far off, and we'd hae at least a couple levels afterwards. Overall, we could get a bit more defense and STR out of tier 1 before we move on, and we necessarily wouldn't be pumping him full of levels with BEXP. Just capping off a few close ones after each map.

One enemy type, and not a highly common one. Amazing.

Oh, and how does he have 34 HP with a Robe? Base level Nolan w/Robe would have 36.

You're implying over the course of 4 chapters, one where he's at his best and it's a laguz infested chapter and the others he's an absolute god in comparison to everyone not Sothe, that he did not gain a single level up.

You seem to have forgotten that Robes in this game only boost HP by 4 and not 7.

And guess what? A Shield also changes it to a 3RKO.

Lessee, 2 enemy types or just one? Which sounds like a greater improvement? Hmmm...

[Florete]

I always recall people always saying DB units won't reach level 20 tier 1 on HM, and usually promote them at...18, right? Oh gee, whatdayaknow!

If you can level him to 20 (or even 19, it's a 49% chance), he will. It's unlikely for him to get that high, but no one else has Def so high.

Because Gatrie getting a speedwing after he's crowned is totally justified, amirite or amirite? This is the case for most. Do we just not give BEXP to anyone? Tell me now, so I'll know no one gets any of a resource we have readily available or which someone can put to better use than another, just so you'll win your arguments.

When did I ever say Gatrie getting a Crown and Speedwing was justified? As far as I remember, the Crown was all he needed to start doubling.

And the DB happens to have less BEXP than the GM's. Quite a bit less. Aran getting the amount he really needs is pretty heavy favoritism.

We have it, why not use it? This game I recall focuses quite heavily on resource management, and BEXP is a resource.

Yes, and units who don't need resources, or who need very minimal amounts > than those who need a lot.

Hell, doesn't even help Aran as much. Aran can't use a robe and get a better deal against mages. Nolan literally gets twice the boost Aran would out of a robe.

Be careful using terms like "twice the boost."

Let's say Aran gets the 1-4 Robe. 15-16 atk Mages in 1-5 used to 2HKO him, now it's 3. So that already debunks the "can't get a better deal against Mages" bit.

W/out the Robe, it takes ~25 atk to 2HKO level 9 Aran. With it, it takes 28. 6 enemies in 1-5 already reach that. Let's say he gains 2 Def for 1-6 (support and level or something). 25.5 HP/14 Def needs 27 atk to 2HKO, 32.5/14 Def needs 30-31. Admittedly, not much reaches that in 1-6-1. Just one guy. But then there's the 22 and 23 atk that borderline 4HKOs him that now 5HKOs. Some 24 atk guys go from 3HKO to 4HKO.

I'd say a Robe helps Aran quite a bit.

Indeed with the second robe.

As for Eddie capping HP, know what that means? He caps it so sooner, and if you look at his stats at level 13, you'd get this.

HP: 32, 13.4 Str, 17.85 Skill, 18.4 Speed, 12.5 Luck, 9.15+support defense, 3.8+support defense. More access to skills, +crit bonus for swordmaster

You promoted him early because of a Seraph Robe, effectively killing the only thing he had on his side, a good lategame? Wow.

You're implying over the course of 4 chapters, one where he's at his best and it's a laguz infested chapter and the others he's an absolute god in comparison to everyone not Sothe, that he did not gain a single level up.

No, I'm not, I was pointing out how wrong your numbers were.

You seem to have forgotten that Robes in this game only boost HP by 4 and not 7.

Check your info before talking.

Seraph Robe

1

8000

Max HP +7

I have no clue where you got 4 from.

Lessee, 2 enemy types or just one? Which sounds like a greater improvement? Hmmm...

More enemies or a few enemies? Hm...

[Ether]

If you can level him to 20 (or even 19, it's a 49% chance), he will. It's unlikely for him to get that high, but no one else has Def so high.

I always recall people always saying DB units won't reach level 20 tier 1 on HM, and usually promote them at...18, right? Oh gee, whatdayaknow!

So we're giving him earlier favoritism so that he can take more later. Right.

Because Gatrie getting a speedwing after he's crowned is totally justified, amirite or amirite? This is the case for most. Do we just not give BEXP to anyone? Tell me now, so I'll know no one gets any of a resource we have readily available or which someone can put to better use than another, just so you'll win your arguments.

It seems you have this strange idea that using BEXP well > not using it all. I'd rather have a unit that doesn't need to use BEXP at all than one that sucks it all up.

We have it, why not use it? This game I recall focuses quite heavily on resource management, and BEXP is a resource.

No, Nolan would want the Dracoshield. Characters basically would rather boost stats that are lower than the ones that are higher, and Nolan has pretty high HP as it is while having fairly low Def. Aran would want the Robe since he isn the opposite, 50% HP and 24 base is nothing special.

Once we use said resource on him, his growth will slowly have it's effects fade away, whilst Nolan can actually keep it up. I am willing to bet the effects can be felt all the way to part 3 with Nolan. Hell, doesn't even help Aran as much. Aran can't use a robe and get a better deal against mages. Nolan literally gets twice the boost Aran would out of a robe.

Eddie? Are you serious? That's like the first stat he caps in both 1st and 2nd tier. At level 16, he already has a 44% chance of having it capped. That dude wants a damn Shield. Jill I'll give you though, she does want a Robe. Good thing part 1 has 2.

Indeed with the second robe.

As for Eddie capping HP, know what that means? He caps it so sooner, and if you look at his stats at level 13, you'd get this.

HP: 32, 13.4 Str, 17.85 Skill, 18.4 Speed, 12.5 Luck, 9.15+support defense, 3.8+support defense. More access to skills, +crit bonus for swordmaster

Might not seem like much, but do keep in mind his offense just got a major boost, and now has access to Paragon. I suppose my question then would be how fast you think he could get to level 13?

As for immediate boosts, he's got 28 HP and 7+2 def from possible B with Leo, and at least 1+1 res at level 10.

Mages do 13 damage to him, 3RKO. You'd otherwise need 23 ATK to 2RKO him. 7 enemies on the map, but keep in mind there aren't many in 1-5.

OK, Eddie getting the robe is grasping at straws, but hitting the cap sooner isn't necessarily bad. Let's say he caps HP. Now he's got one of his greater stats capped. This leaves Str, Skill and Speed as his most likely. He's got 7 levels. He can continue to be used normally. However, let's say he finished a battle, and he's near a level. With just a tidbit of BEXP (not pumping levels basically), there's nothing we would get that we wouldn't want from a BEXP level. Once he caps skill and speed, it's basically only STR, Luck and Def left. With this bit, that won't be far off, and we'd hae at least a couple levels afterwards. Overall, we could get a bit more defense and STR out of tier 1 before we move on, and we necessarily wouldn't be pumping him full of levels with BEXP. Just capping off a few close ones after each map.

One enemy type, and not a highly common one. Amazing.

Oh, and how does he have 34 HP with a Robe? Base level Nolan w/Robe would have 36.

You're implying over the course of 4 chapters, one where he's at his best and it's a laguz infested chapter and the others he's an absolute god in comparison to everyone not Sothe, that he did not gain a single level up.

You seem to have forgotten that Robes in this game only boost HP by 4 and not 7.

And guess what? A Shield also changes it to a 3RKO.

Lessee, 2 enemy types or just one? Which sounds like a greater improvement? Hmmm...

umm...no,they boost HP by 7...

[grandjackal]

They do? I could have swornt hey only boost HP by 4...

...

...Fuck, that's FEDS, isn't it? x.x

...Wouldn't that only help Nolan more anyways? It helps him survive 2 blasts of the boss in 1-5, where if it were 4 HP it wouldn't have. I mean, srsly.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

They do? I could have swornt hey only boost HP by 4...

...

...Fuck, that's FEDS, isn't it? x.x

Nope.I'm pretty sure it's 7 HP in all of them.

[Zkirsche]

I always recall people always saying DB units won't reach level 20 tier 1 on HM, and usually promote them at...18, right? Oh gee, whatdayaknow!

Great use of facts and statistics here.

Nolan only needs 1.2 levels per chapter in order to get to 20/1 without the seal (1.1 with it). Or a level for 4 chapters and ~1.333 levels per chapter for the next 6 (Or a level per chapter for 5 chapters and 1.2 levels for 5 with the seal). Level 9 Nolan gets ~8 exp per hit and ~19 per kill in 1-1. To get 1.2 levels he needs ~4 kills and ~6 hits. Considering he's your main offensive and defensive unit on this chapter, this is perfectly doable. It could be more, considering he's likely to fight the boss.

A level 10 Nolan in chapter 1-2 gets ~9 exp per hit and ~21 exp per kill. So that's ~4 kills and ~4 Hits. A level 11 Nolan in chapter 1-3 gets ~9 exp per hit and ~22 exp per kill. So that's ~4 kills and ~4 Hits. A level 12 Nolan in chapter 1-4 gets ~24 exp per hit and ~50 exp per kill. So that's ~1 Kill + 3 hits. A level 13 Nolan in chapter 1-5 gets ~9 exp per hit and ~22 exp per kill. So that's ~3 kills, ~5 hits and ~126 bexp. I view all of this as possible considering he's one of your best offensive units throughout these chapters.

A level 15 Nolan in chapter 1-6-1 gets ~9 exp per hit and ~22 exp per kill. So that's ~2 kills, ~4 hits and ~320 bexp. Again, possible. In 1-6-2. A level 16 Nolan needs 2 kills (42 exp), 5 hits (45 exp) and an extra ~51 bexp when he returns to base in 1-7. There, he'll need ~2 kills (44) + ~5 hits (45) + 19 bexp to gain a level. Come 1-8, it's the same thing as in 1-6-1 for the experience and in 1-E he only needs ~1 kill, ~5 attacks and ~500 bexp. Considering Nolan's had a lot of turns where he doesn't do anything and has never faced the boss in any of tehse scenario's he should be 20/1 by 3-6 or at least very clsoe to it.

[grandjackal]

I always recall people always saying DB units won't reach level 20 tier 1 on HM, and usually promote them at...18, right? Oh gee, whatdayaknow!

Great use of facts and statistics here.

Nolan only needs 1.2 levels per chapter in order to get to 20/1 without the seal (1.1 with it). Or a level for 4 chapters and ~1.333 levels per chapter for the next 6 (Or a level per chapter for 5 chapters and 1.2 levels for 5 with the seal). Level 9 Nolan gets ~8 exp per hit and ~19 per kill in 1-1. To get 1.2 levels he needs ~4 kills and ~6 hits. Considering he's your main offensive and defensive unit on this chapter, this is perfectly doable. It could be more, considering he's likely to fight the boss.

A level 10 Nolan in chapter 1-2 gets ~9 exp per hit and ~21 exp per kill. So that's ~4 kills and ~4 Hits. A level 11 Nolan in chapter 1-3 gets ~9 exp per hit and ~22 exp per kill. So that's ~4 kills and ~4 Hits. A level 12 Nolan in chapter 1-4 gets ~24 exp per hit and ~50 exp per kill. So that's ~1 Kill + 3 hits. A level 13 Nolan in chapter 1-5 gets ~9 exp per hit and ~22 exp per kill. So that's ~3 kills, ~5 hits and ~126 bexp. I view all of this as possible considering he's one of your best offensive units throughout these chapters.

A level 15 Nolan in chapter 1-6-1 gets ~9 exp per hit and ~22 exp per kill. So that's ~2 kills, ~4 hits and ~320 bexp. Again, possible. In 1-6-2. A level 16 Nolan needs 2 kills (42 exp), 5 hits (45 exp) and an extra ~51 bexp when he returns to base in 1-7. There, he'll need ~2 kills (44) + ~5 hits (45) + 19 bexp to gain a level. Come 1-8, it's the same thing as in 1-6-1 for the experience and in 1-E he only needs ~1 kill, ~5 attacks and ~500 bexp. Considering Nolan's had a lot of turns where he doesn't do anything and has never faced the boss in any of tehse scenario's he should be 20/1 by 3-6 or at least very clsoe to it.

Ok, ONE of your tier one units -_-;;

[Narga_Rocks]

Did Aran suddenly vanish from the game?

You mean the guy that already has a decent chance at being 3RKOd by 39 mt tigers at 20/1 already? Really really good shot at 20/2?

No, he didn't vanish. I just thought having an extra guy be 3RKOd in 3-6 would be a good thing. Especially to a person who likes spreading goodness around while never creating greatness.

Besides, Aran starts with 24 hp and 11 def. Nolan starts with 29 hp and 9 def. In the interests of spreading goodness around, wouldn't it make sense to give it to Nolan? Aran does okay for himself with a few levels. Nolan starts at a higher level and less defence with a smaller def growth. Similar hp growth, too. (60 vs. 50). Two tanky characters > 1 slightly tankier character. Nolan needs the help more than Aran does, especially since the avo from Nolan's earth won't really help much until 3-12 and part 4. And as long as stuff still 3HKOs Aran he can be critblicked. Defence isn't helping there if the draco doesn't get him to 4HKO.

Aran happens to have a defense affinity on top of it.

Oh, now suddenly I gotta spread the wealth when you're telling me BS like giving Gatrie a wing and a crown? God, this is FE4 all over again.

The defense affinity happens to be the reason he's got a prayer at 3RKOd for 20/1. From the 39 mt tigers, anyway. And there's like, two 41 mt tigers in 3-6, if you look at the HM enemy stats thing, anyway. We have a torch staff and can buy torch items and just happen to have two or three untrained units that can't do much else. We'll know those two guys are coming far in advance.

And yes, in some cases you spread it. And that's now three times with saying I've said things I haven't. Good job. A wing followed by a crown is pointless. He caps in tier 2 quickly enough. He's got four options for part 4: a speedwing, paragon, bexp, or waiting. Any of those four options is good for doubling what he wouldn't, and I've promoted paragon above all of them. Bexp second in my opinion, though I haven't said it. Yes, I'd recommend the 3-9 speedwing over simply making him level before he starts doubling again. Why? There are times to not spread the wealth around. And you talk about the crown for Gatrie as if it's a big deal.

As for why you spread it now, there are 3 spots to wall, minimum. If you do it right, there is occasionally going to be overflow onto the east side, but a unit that is 2HKOd will be fine there. We have Volug and possibly Aran. Nolan makes 3. Then you aren't waiting for the BK. A robe and a shield for Jill and she can do it soon, a robe or a shield for Nolan and he can almost immediately. If you have 3 spots and can have 2 or 3 units that can be 3RKOd, then yes, spreading the wealth is good here. When you could have 5 units in part 3 that can tank and destroy on enemy phase, and you want to take items away from 2 of them and we'd only have Ike, Mia, and Gatrie to destroy on enemy phase because you want to give a speedwing to Kyza, then there are issues with spreading it around. 3 units is not always sufficient to speed through a map. They can't always be positioned for maximum enemy phase destruction. 5 units makes it better and faster, since the nubs can pick off anything left alive and move forward and you don't have to worry about any enemy stragglers attacking squishy units.

Going back to the last time I want you to put something on a unit that is already good, the speedwing is one of two reasons I'm willing to accept Titania as high as she is. She has average speed, average durability, and above average strength. Canto and 9 move is not enough to make her the #5 unit in the game. Especially when a horse hurts at times. With the wing and an Oscar support, I am willing to see her that high. Oscar wants mt more than anything from his support and doesn't get it from her, though, but I accept that support based on their shared move and move issues. Plus Oscar likely does better with either +def or +7 avo from a support than if he got neither. He doesn't really need both, so he doesn't need Shinon, but one or the other makes up for having less avo than Mia (with Ike). The hit does well for when he wields a javelin or short spear or spear or horseslayer, so that's good too. It's not optimal (water or fire or dark are all likely better for him), but the shared move and type is enough to make up for not having +mt. Without the wing and the support, I'd still leave her in high, just lower in it.

Wait, are you suggesting giving the Dracoshield to Aran? Why the hell would you give +Def to the guy who cap rams it already? That'll have gone to waste rather soon. I'd rather give it to virtually anyone else, like Edward, Nolan, Jill, Nephenee, etc.

He doesn't actually cap it tier 1, but with it he now caps it as soon as he caps skill, meaning he'll have 2 stats capped at 18, meaning 2 BEXP levels to cap Str, give him 2 more HP, and I guess 1 speed and luck. This in turn also means he caps Str and Def sooner tier 2, which allows for juicier BEXP levels tier 2. Say he's using BEXP all you want, but he's putting it to use as much as anyone else would. Probably better, as now he basically has nothing else BUT HP, speed and luck to grow at that point. Moreover, it's not like you have to give him a lot, just enough for a crowning, which again won't be much.

Gee, when I look at Aran's average stats I'm seeing a nice bold 20 in def at level 20. Maybe I need to get my eyes checked or something, but seems to me he caps def in tier 1. And he needs a lot of bexp to do anything useful. 1800 to go from level 18 to 19. 1900 to get to level 20. Then in tier 2 at level 8 he's got, what?

36 hp, 26 str, 26 skl, 18 spd, 13 luck, 25 def, 9 res.

Give him his ~2800 bexp to go from lvl 18.5 to 20 and give him a seal.

Considering his hp growth is .5, that isn't 2 extra hp, it's 1. He'll get 1 speed, but that's on a .35 growth in 2 levels. He gains .3. (1 - 2x.35 = .3) Then there is that str that capped anyway, so whatever. Then there is 1 luck on a .35 growth in two levels. Another .3.

20/8:

37 hp, 26 str, 26 skl, 18.3 spd, 13.3 luck, 25 def, 8.5 res. (Remember, he didn't get res in those 2 bexp levels.)

Wow, that's so much better use than anyone else could possibly get.

So now he takes 2800 bexp to get to level 20/9. Call it 1400 if he got to 50 exp.

Crowning takes 2900 + 1400 = 4400 bexp.

In it, he gets: 2 hp, 2 spd, 2 luck, but really +1hp, +1.3 spd, +1.3 luck.

So he now has 39 hp, 20.3 spd, 15.3 lck, 8.5 res, instead of:

37 hp, 18.7 spd, 13.7 luck, and 9.5 res. So +2 hp, +1.6 spd, +1.6 luck, -1 res. He gets 4.2 points for 4400 + 2800 = 7200 bexp and a draco. Well, he also lost .4 magic, but that doesn't matter like the res does. Really, since we gave him a draco he barely needs, it's more like a benefit of 2.2 points. 1.8 if we include the magic loss.

37 hp, 26 str, 26 skl, 18.3 spd, 13.3 luck, 25 def, 8.5 res. (Remember, he didn't get res in those 2 levels either.)

Do you really want to crown him now?

43 hp, 28 str, 28 skl, 22.3 spd, 15.3 luck, 27 def, 12.5 res.

So let's assume that's what he's starting 3-13 with. Keep in mind, though, he'd still benefit from the bexp fairly decently without the draco. He'd be sitting at 22 speed anyway. That draco gets us 1 hp, .3 spd, and .3 luck, since he'd get the benefit in tier 2 regardless.

He gains fewer points than we gave him with the draco!

We gain 10025 bexp during part 1. So in 3-6 giving him 2800 is more than a quarter of our bexp. (1-7 does not give 2000 for rescuing all the prisoners and letting them escape. It gives 1000. I've had all 5 escape before.) It gives 2000 on NM, not 4000, as well. The number of tests I've done in 1-8 for supports and seen 2000 while playing 1-8, trust me, I wouldn't forget.

So he took a quarter of that, and got 1.1 points (1.6 useful - .5 useful), or really .9 points, but magic doesn't matter.

Then we get 6000 bexp for clearing 3-6 + 3-12. Of which he takes 4400. So he could actually go from 20/7.89 to 20/10 and get a bit more benefit from bexp without the draco. But, as for with the draco, you keep forgetting that he only really gains .25 str every bexp level in which str procs, so with two levels of bexp you could argue he gains .5, but str reached 19.75 in the first place, so it's only really .25 he gained. Which means at 20/7 he's only at 25.5 str, not guaranteed to get 26 str at 20/7. Even if he gets it, he still needs skl, otherwise he could get either spd or luck, and if he gets luck then it just hurts his spd.

Point is, he goes from 20/8 to 20/10 regardless, and takes almost three quarters of our part 3 bexp. There is no way that is justifiable. Not for a measely 3.6 points (Really 3.1 b/c of the res loss, or 2.9 with the mag loss). The number of units that could be close enough to a level for that 6000 to give 4 or 5 units a bexp level if we wanted...

Anyway, how many levels do you expect a tier 3 unit to get in 3-13?

43 hp, 28 str, 28 skl, 22.3 spd, 15.3 luck, 27 def, 12.5 res.

So 29 def with a support, and he is 4HKOd by the tigers. All that effort and he gets something useful, except for the whole only needing 2 guys that aren't OHKOd to beat this level thing. Don't get me wrong, he'd be nice for this chapter, and lets you do something offensive, maybe, especially since he takes only 2 damage from the 31 mt cats and none from the 29 mt cats. But he still can't waltz around freely, since there are places where 4 tigers can attack at once, and plus he spent oh so much bexp. Oh, it takes 2 39 mt tigers and 2 41 mt tigers to KO him. Or 1 and 3, or 0 and 4, obviously. And beastfoe is suicide, in case anyone was wondering.

Anyway, whatever you think of those stats, or his 20/10/3 stats for part 4, assuming 2 levels in 3-13 (is it even possible?), the fact is he takes three quarters of our bexp, and that's assuming level 18.5 after 3-12. Any less, he takes even more. For example, if he is 18.1 (ie: 10 experience on) he takes 5420, which is >90% of our bexp reserves (assuming all of part 1's was used for boosting units to level 20 before sealing and the rest on Laura if there is any left to make her eventually become an offensive threat so that she'll be more useful.)

In all, Aran took 7200 out of 16025 bexp. That's right, almost 45% of our bexp. All so that we can be a little more aggressive in 3-13, a chapter where we don't actually need to be aggressive. Also, that's assuming level 18.5 after 1-E, and 20/8.5 after 3-12. At more reasonable levels, he takes even more bexp to achieve those levels. Don't forget there was likely a fair bit off bexp given during earlier chapters to get the units we raise closer to the next level, otherwise a unit with a base level of 7 is not likely reaching level 18 during 1-E. In addition to 45% of our bexp, you want to give him a draco. Possibly an ashera icon as well if you want to help fix his new luck problems caused by early crowning.

Not to mention that the dracoshield only gives him 1 hp, .3 spd, and .3 luck that he wouldn't have if we simply let him go to level 20 normally. Plus, he'd get the extra hp anyway, since going from level 18 to level 20 without the draco but with bexp means 2 hp, 2 str, 2 def. Instead of only 1 hp. And, he gets 19.4 def at level 19, so he may even get 20 def by level 19 without the draco, and now there is a chance of getting extra spd. Also, he has 18.7 def at level 18. There is a good chance (over 50%) of having 19 def at level 18. A level of bexp there give 1 str, 1 hp, 1 def. So he caps, and can still boost either spd or luck.

Basically, the draco shield might get him either .3 spd or .3 luck that he wouldn't have otherwise.

So yeah, not a great improvement from the draco. He benefits a bit during part 1, mostly turning 3RKOs into 4RKOs and 4RKOs into 5RKOs. Percentage wise, it's like a 33% improvement or a 25% improvement. Giving one to units like Nolan and Jill can turn 2RKOs into 3RKOs. That's a 50% improvement. Hmm, so he gets a smaller immediate benefit, and very little long term benefit. Wow. Go Aran.

Dracoshield does help Aran a lot in 1-4 iirc(from vague memory, an extra round, and sometimes two in pretty much every scenario possible), and now he also needs less help/EXP for part 3. But he's likely more helped with a robe, I think.

I'd actually think Nolan would want the robe. Basically Eddie, Nolan, Aran and Jill would want a robe. Robe comes 1-4 in a chest, so Jill having a chance isn't far off, due to only joinng after the next chapter. Aran getting hte dracoshield means he wouldn't need it, leaving only Eddie and Nolan. Obviously, Nolan would put it to better use, unless you could argue Eddie can get his defense through Leo support to make up for non-dracoshield. Basically it leaves Jill and Nolan being high priority for the robe. All Michaiah gets out of it is more powerful earlygame sacrifice healing, which isn't much of a return. Thing about the robe is that it boosts durability in a way a shield or a talisman can't, HP boosts defense against magic and physical. Since Nolan's got a crapload of HP, giving him more means he can basically laugh at mages. Nolan at level 12 with a Robe has 34 HP, 4 Res and 10 DEf. I'll give a comparison to mages, who only do 11 damage to her in 1-5. Without the robe, he gets 3RKOd. With, 4RKOd. See? Noticeable returns, thus Nolan is a fine cantidate for the robe.

4x Fighter lvl 11 (Steel Axe)

HP 30, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

Doing 16 damage. Would 2RKO him normally, but otherwise now with the robe he's getting 3RKOd. This helps, as these guys are the strongest dudes on the map.

For teh lulz, Robe helps Nolan cap HP at tier 2, 20/20.

Jill, Nolan, Aran, Micaiah are all great options for the robe. Jill, Nolan, Micaiah are great for the draco. I suppose gets some improvement.

Aran benefits more from the robe than the draco. Well, long term, anyway. Short term, a robe boosts his enemy mt 3HKOing him by 2.5 compared to the boost of 2 from the draco. (ie, an enemy with at least x mt 3HKOs him before, now the enemy needs x + 2.5 mt to still 3HKO him, any enemy that only has x, or x + 1, or x + 2 now 4HKOs instead of 3HKOs. Just a draco makes it x + 2 mt)

As for 4HKOing him, a robe boosts it by 1.75, whereas a draco boosts it by 2. In the "too high to care" category, a robe makes a 5HKOer need +1.4 mt whereas a draco makes that guy need +2 mt to do it. In the "too close for comfort" category, a robe makes a 2HKOer need +3.5 mt to still manage. For a draco, it only needs +2 mt.

Really, in the important areas (being 2HKOd and being 3HKOd), Aran benefits more from a robe. In the "too high to care" categories, Aran benefits more from a draco. But seriously, if Aran is 4HKOd by, say, 22 mt or more. A draco means 24 mt. A robe means 24 mt. Big deal. It only matters for averages. In practice, a robe is similar to a shield for 4HKOd, and a robe is similar to a shield for 3HKOd, even though they alter which one is technically superior. The difference is mainly in the 2HKOd numbers and the 5HKOd numbers, and I for one am far more worried about the small one. Especially in 3-6, where a robe can mean even the 41 mt tigers don't 2HKO him, whereas a shield means they still 2HKO him.

As for the minor issue that Aran no longer gets that extra .3 spd? Boohoo. It's .3. Who cares? The .3 luck? ditto. The 1 hp? Oh well, he got 7 extra. Hey, guess what, now he has +6 hp compared to no improvement in def. In part 3, a robe is vastly superior, since we are comparing 6 hp to .3 spd, .3 luck, and -.5 res. Basically, instead of being 2HKOd by a combo of a 41 mt tiger and a 39 mt tiger, he now isn't even 2HKOd by 2 41 mt tigers. There may only be 2, but when they finally do show up, any improvement is good. Plus the improvements on all the others. Plus the improvement when he gets to part 4. Basically, a robe benefits Aran early (from 1-5 on), and helps him greatly in part 3. A shield gives him +1 hp, +.3 skl, + .3 luck at the cost of .2 magic and .5 res. And no improvement to durability whatsoever. I know you tend to focus on the immediate and ignore the long term, but honestly, a robe is far superior for Aran than a shield. A shield does much more good on just about anybody else. And we have 2 robes vs. 1 shield.

[grandjackal]

Well, it seems Narga went ahead and epic'd the fuck out of me. I can't possibly argue that. Like it's so bad, I feel like I've been shamed, tarred and feathered.

Dammit, I didn't even think of the 41 Mt tigers...Is he seriously 3RKOd by them after a robe? ;;>>

...You even went ahead and worked the numbers to the decimal chances of BEXP?

...Whatever, Aran can at least benefit from something it appears.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky