FE9 Tier list v3

[Lord Raven]

Chapter 24 was just an example, it's true that Tormod rushing ahead isn't a key to the map, but there are other maps that are more dense (C26 comes to mind, C23 he may have to take ballista shots etc.)

C26 has a surprisingly low density. Not high enough for Tormod to get 3HKO'd easily, and Nephenee deals with problems against the Sage with Bolganone (who is *really* fucking accurate) and the Meteor Sage, on top of WTD against the Warriors in the start. They're all fairly accurate (except the dudes with the Steel and Killer Axes), too. This disadvantages both units obviously, but the main difference is a 3HKO from a 4HKO. But that's pretty much a boss rush that consists of Marcia, Kieran, Oscar, and unit #4 rushing far ahead and dropping Ike by Turn 2 so he can Seize on Turn 3.

This is questionable IMO. Comparing a 20/6 Marcia to base Tanith, Marcia wins by 2 Str, 2 HP, 2 Res- pretty small leads and Tanith can ORKO Wyverns with the Sonic Sword while Marcia cannot. Jill's leads are a bit larger (though Jill's Spd is questionable for a few tasks, killing Homasa for instance), but I don't think either of them make Tanith completely irrelevant, especially with Reinforce factored in.

Marcia most likely has boots. Not that Tanith is irrelevant, Tanith just isn't able to replace them as easily because one of them is quite easily getting boots (Marcia seems to double things a lot better than Jill) and the Boots come in handy for Chapters 16 and 17.

I wouldn't say it's extremely likely that we're not recruiting one of them. I think it would make more sense to assume both Marcia and Jill exist.

Not always. You actually need to take like 3 extra turns to get Marcia and like 4-5 extra turns to get Jill. In fact, Marcia with a forged Iron can beat the chapter where you can recruit Jill (I'm bad with some of the numbers) in 2 turns if she wants. I'm not using this as a factor against either of them, merely presenting the possibility that sometimes they *won't* be sharing recruitment time.

Boots or not, they do beat Titania on flier maps, but the margin is much less than how much Titania beats them on 1-7, again because all the fliers can be replicated, Titania's really one of the only units with a truly unique turncount contribution to the game IMO (well except Ike, but that involves Lord stuff).

Marcia cannot be replicated. Marcia beats Jill in level for a while because she is most likely at a higher level when Jill joins and there isn't enough BEXP to catch Jill up. Marcia absolutely dominates for a bunch of chapters, essentially taking over Titania's role, and with Boots it becomes even more apparent. With Boots they beat Titania on a *bunch* of maps, by enough to make up for not existing in C1-7. Of course, they're not better, they just don't deserve to be one tier apart.

Ike finishing the final chapter doesn't really count in his favor, since defeating Ashnard counts as one of those "forced storyline event deals" where Ike's only useful because the game is forcing us to use him.

You can beat the final chapter with Ena, but I'm stating a reason why he should be leveled so high and ended up with great offense, otherwise the final chapter becomes a bitch. It is a forced storyline thing but Ike is not always necessary to do it, which is what makes it different to him Seizing; Ike is just the most efficient way around it, and I was stating that as more of a reason as to why he'd be getting a bunch of BEXP over a unit such as Boyd.

Tanith reaches the same boss much more easily, I'm not sure how Ike gets into Gromell's range before Gromell starts attacking our fliers so Ike being able to use the Sonic Sword on him doesn't really help. Tanith fights a ton more wyverns than Ike does if she's in play, unless we're unecessarily rescue dropping Ike so he can do a bit worse at Sonic Swording than she does.

Ike can be rescue dropped on Turn 1 and I think he'd rather go for Ike with a Sonic Sword than Marcia with a Spear. Then again, Marcia had Shade, so v_v (I just completed the chapter and Ike/Marcia have about the same offensive parameters..)

So Boyd can't get any BEXP in C8? That doesn't seem very efficient if we're planning on using him. Also, there are a number of maps in which Boyd can kill reinforcements, or it's a defend map, or he can help thieves get to chests etc etc. that we aren't using mounted units for.

Level 13 is a little bit ridiculous though, we want to save enough BEXP for Marcia.

I find that with most low turn counts, reinforcements either don't arrive early on or in the right place for Boyd to take them out. I'm judging this off my (random) playthrough, though, so I apologize if I sound elitist, but other units were more useful to keeping low turn counts intact AND doing those things. The mounts can ferry them if needed, but the other thing is that there aren't enough treasures worth getting that Boyd would be useful in doing that, and whatever treasures are worth getting are far out of Boyd's movement reach within a reasonably small turn count. Anyone who's not mounted in this game simply isn't that good (Tormod isn't either despite having 8 move), this even includes Ike.

We can give Ike a lot of BEXP, sure, but we can give Boyd a lot of BEXP too (getting him to ORKO is not terribly expensive).

It's easy to cap off Ike's level because he doesn't even compete for deployment; Boyd actually competes heavily for deployment. I know when I was playing there were times where I needed certain units but didn't have enough slots... of course I always used Boyd, but most of his EXP was BEXP.

Wrath on Ike can be useful for the final chapter but this has nothing to do with Nephenee.

I forgot about Nephenee's innate Wrath LOL I'm sorry.

And Nephenee's more available than Tormod as well.

Boyd's available for at least 10 more chapters, Nephenee's available for like 5-6 maps. That's the key difference.

[-Cynthia-]

C26 has a surprisingly low density. Not high enough for Tormod to get 3HKO'd easily, and Nephenee deals with problems against the Sage with Bolganone (who is *really* fucking accurate) and the Meteor Sage, on top of WTD against the Warriors in the start. They're all fairly accurate (except the dudes with the Steel and Killer Axes), too. This disadvantages both units obviously, but the main difference is a 3HKO from a 4HKO. But that's pretty much a boss rush that consists of Marcia, Kieran, Oscar, and unit #4 rushing far ahead and dropping Ike by Turn 2 so he can Seize on Turn 3.

C26 is one with Bertram as the boss right? There are...a lot of enemies on this map, though they're conveniently grouped by character class (so Nephenee can take on a group of Paladins instead of something she has WTD against), I find it difficult to believe that Tormod will be able to avoid being targeted by 3-4 enemies if he charges a group.

I guess the point is that even though Tormod does have more Mov than someone like Nephenee, he still doesn't really help in the big mounted charges.

Marcia most likely has boots. Not that Tanith is irrelevant, Tanith just isn't able to replace them as easily because one of them is quite easily getting boots (Marcia seems to double things a lot better than Jill) and the Boots come in handy for Chapters 16 and 17.

Tanith's only a slightly worse candidate herself though, since I *think* the Boots only save a turn overall in 16-17 (depends on initial positions on 17-4 and how we Shove and Smite stuff etc.) Tanith still should be a tier lower than Marcia/Jill for availability reasons anyway, but they're all pretty interchangable once she shows up (and Reinforce does increase reliability in a few places I think, mostly as extra ballista/staff bait, though they can also help clear the C21 Generals and stuff).

Not always. You actually need to take like 3 extra turns to get Marcia and like 4-5 extra turns to get Jill. In fact, Marcia with a forged Iron can beat the chapter where you can recruit Jill (I'm bad with some of the numbers) in 2 turns if she wants. I'm not using this as a factor against either of them, merely presenting the possibility that sometimes they *won't* be sharing recruitment time.

Eh this is one of those tier list rule things, in that usually all characters are assumed to be recruited (I should perhaps state this in the OP, though most PoR recruitments are fairly easy so it's not an issue). I might assume not recruited if it's some crap unit like Wallace, but assuming we're not recruiting the best units on some runthroughs seems odd. I might change this policy if people would prefer we not have both recruited most of the time.

Marcia cannot be replicated. Marcia beats Jill in level for a while because she is most likely at a higher level when Jill joins and there isn't enough BEXP to catch Jill up. Marcia absolutely dominates for a bunch of chapters, essentially taking over Titania's role, and with Boots it becomes even more apparent. With Boots they beat Titania on a *bunch* of maps, by enough to make up for not existing in C1-7. Of course, they're not better, they just don't deserve to be one tier apart.

Tier gaps are tricky things, but Titania's turncount impact and reliability effect on early chapters is pretty massive. Giving out the Boots is also tricky, since you can't assign it to any one flier in particular and I'm curious if Boots!Reyson isn't more helpful all in all.

You can beat the final chapter with Ena, but I'm stating a reason why he should be leveled so high and ended up with great offense, otherwise the final chapter becomes a bitch. It is a forced storyline thing but Ike is not always necessary to do it, which is what makes it different to him Seizing; Ike is just the most efficient way around it, and I was stating that as more of a reason as to why he'd be getting a bunch of BEXP over a unit such as Boyd.

Hmm this is an interesting point, because we can beat Ashnard with Ena, it just costs us turns. Ike was already winning C28 and Endgame though, it's C7-27 where I think Boyd wins almost every chapter (because axes>swords essentially). Dumping BEXP and statboosters on Ike does help his Atk issues, though the 1-2 range persists. However, I'd argue that Boyd's resource taking is relatively minimal anyway (less than say, Tormod).

Ike can be rescue dropped on Turn 1 and I think he'd rather go for Ike with a Sonic Sword than Marcia with a Spear. Then again, Marcia had Shade, so v_v (I just completed the chapter and Ike/Marcia have about the same offensive parameters..)

Kind of a weird rescue drop choice, since he misses ORKOs with the Sonic Sword a fair bit and is 1-2 range bait with a better weapon equipped (and he wouldn't have supports in range either).

Level 13 is a little bit ridiculous though, we want to save enough BEXP for Marcia.

Well it's not like we're taking him from 1 to 13, he's probably level 6 to 7 coming out of C7? A level 11 Boyd still kills most of the same things with the hand axe, just gets a bit borderline on the soldiers (and since he could ORKO them at 1 range and Ike probably can't Ike's not winning that either). And if Boyd can't ORKO with a Hand Axe that's generally not a good sign for Ike's offense either - with a Steel Sword Ike needs to be 17/0 to match a 13/0 Boyd's Atk with a Hand Axe.

I find that with most low turn counts, reinforcements either don't arrive early on or in the right place for Boyd to take them out. I'm judging this off my (random) playthrough, though, so I apologize if I sound elitist, but other units were more useful to keeping low turn counts intact AND doing those things. The mounts can ferry them if needed, but the other thing is that there aren't enough treasures worth getting that Boyd would be useful in doing that, and whatever treasures are worth getting are far out of Boyd's movement reach within a reasonably small turn count. Anyone who's not mounted in this game simply isn't that good (Tormod isn't either despite having 8 move), this even includes Ike.

It's easy to cap off Ike's level because he doesn't even compete for deployment; Boyd actually competes heavily for deployment. I know when I was playing there were times where I needed certain units but didn't have enough slots... of course I always used Boyd, but most of his EXP was BEXP.

I agree that Boyd's primary usage comes in earlygame chapters before we get a lot of high powered mounted units. However, I would also say Ike suffers from the same deficiency. Ike's combat parameters on something like C16 don't necessarily help him even though it's a Seize map- mounts carry him, mounted people kill stuff, Ike Seizes last turn- Ike's combat is sort of a nonfactor except for being able to survive a few enemies near the throne.

Edited August 26, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Lord Raven]

C26 is one with Bertram as the boss right? There are...a lot of enemies on this map, though they're conveniently grouped by character class (so Nephenee can take on a group of Paladins instead of something she has WTD against), I find it difficult to believe that Tormod will be able to avoid being targeted by 3-4 enemies if he charges a group.

I guess the point is that even though Tormod does have more Mov than someone like Nephenee, he still doesn't really help in the big mounted charges.

Neither help particularly much in the big mounted charges, if at all, but Tormod is much more likely to see action than Nephenee (hate repeating this point, if only because it bothers me, since I'm aware that you understand it and all, sorry if it ends up being annoying). He also has siege tomes and Reyson support to boost his ability to use siege tomes -- this actually allows him to more easily take out bosses that have a little bit of HP left or need one more push to get someone else to kill them. It may be situational but it's something that he can at least help with when the mounted units are dominating; Nephenee doesn't have access to that privilege nor can she use a staff when needed (if ever, I don't think staffs outside of endgame rescue staffs are useful).

Tanith's only a slightly worse candidate herself though, since I *think* the Boots only save a turn overall in 16-17 (depends on initial positions on 17-4 and how we Shove and Smite stuff etc.) Tanith still should be a tier lower than Marcia/Jill for availability reasons anyway, but they're all pretty interchangable once she shows up (and Reinforce does increase reliability in a few places I think, mostly as extra ballista/staff bait, though they can also help clear the C21 Generals and stuff).

Boots can save you 2 turns on Chapter 16 and 3 on Chapter 17. In Chapter 17, Marcia needs to be able to take out all of the guys at the end (give her an Energy Drop and the Spear that the boss dropped in C16 and she's fine, the Halberdier also needs a certain amount of defense but that is pretty much the only variable) and she reaches them very easily with Boots. In part 2, if she's in the right position she needs a couple shoves to reach the Arrive point. Part 3 is just a "fuck around till the time runs out" map, and in part 4 the right shove chain with Lethe/Mordecai/Muarim/promoted Brom (lol, 3 levels of BEXP/scratch CEXP + Master Seal is good for him) gets her an easy 1 turn especially because Nosferatu will do shit all for damage.

Eh this is one of those tier list rule things, in that usually all characters are assumed to be recruited (I should perhaps state this in the OP, though most PoR recruitments are fairly easy so it's not an issue). I might assume not recruited if it's some crap unit like Wallace, but assuming we're not recruiting the best units on some runthroughs seems odd. I might change this policy if people would prefer we not have both recruited most of the time.

mmk, fair enough, it's a weird point to make and gauge especially since recruitment's not a factor in quality so sorry for that.

Tier gaps are tricky things, but Titania's turncount impact and reliability effect on early chapters is pretty massive. Giving out the Boots is also tricky, since you can't assign it to any one flier in particular and I'm curious if Boots!Reyson isn't more helpful all in all.

Boots!Reyson isn't necessarily more helpful because of his durability issues. He still needs to survive enemy phase, and that's kind of a big if. His movement goes up to 10 when transformed but... he can't Canto without the Knight Band and if he's even utilizing the Knight Band he's pretty much going the same distance he'd go if he had 8 movement instead so why bother giving him Boots at all? He'll still outrace most of your units in that case so he's pretty much not making full use of boots, and transporting him is not an issue at alll.

Hmm this is an interesting point, because we can beat Ashnard with Ena, it just costs us turns. Ike was already winning C28 and Endgame though, it's C7-27 where I think Boyd wins almost every chapter (because axes>swords essentially). Dumping BEXP and statboosters on Ike does help his Atk issues, though the 1-2 range persists. However, I'd argue that Boyd's resource taking is relatively minimal anyway (less than say, Tormod).

Boyd's resource taking is relatively small but his output is not all that large. Once again, it's the fact that he's around since C1 that he's so high on the list, otherwise he'd be "just another fighter" because his durability issues persist and are only salvaged by massive HP and WTA against Lances. Swords don't have many benefits in relation to axes, but Boyd still can't consistently ORKO with a Hand Axe towards the second half of the game (so late-midgame and the entirely of the lategame) because of the fact that mounted units essentially begin to truly overtake everyone, with *them* gaining axes too.

Kind of a weird rescue drop choice, since he misses ORKOs with the Sonic Sword a fair bit and is 1-2 range bait with a better weapon equipped (and he wouldn't have supports in range either).

Yeah he gets exactly 2RKOs with a Sonic Sword, but it surprisingly has enough uses for C25. I also had to use that one because of bad resource allocation so I don't actually consider my results all that accurate for C25, but I was surprised by the fact that 9 Mag + Sonic Sword 3HKO'd the boss, but the point is that ballisticians can go fuck themselves for making me do such a weird chain. Boyd didn't have enough durability to stay alive, the Swordmaster and Sage would eat him alive assuming he managed to somehow dodge all of the Halberdiers and the boss (I didn't have a Physic user either).

Well it's not like we're taking him from 1 to 13, he's probably level 6 to 7 coming out of C7? A level 11 Boyd still kills most of the same things with the hand axe, just gets a bit borderline on the soldiers (and since he could ORKO them at 1 range and Ike probably can't Ike's not winning that either). And if Boyd can't ORKO with a Hand Axe that's generally not a good sign for Ike's offense either - with a Steel Sword Ike needs to be 17/0 to match a 13/0 Boyd's Atk with a Hand Axe.

Durability comes into question here too, though, and Steel Swords can easily be forged early on. Not like we're forging much with 1-range weapons anyway, since we don't get 1-2 range weapon forges till after Ike's promotion.

I do remember Boyd taking out some reinforcements and Wyverns in the early portion of the stage, though, so I'll give you that. Ike could also do it if he wanted to, though, because only one of the Wyverns has a Javelin and Boyd doesn't do much damage to that one anyway (so I doubt Ike would be much of an improvement).

I agree that Boyd's primary usage comes in earlygame chapters before we get a lot of high powered mounted units. However, I would also say Ike suffers from the same deficiency. Ike's combat parameters on something like C16 don't necessarily help him even though it's a Seize map- mounts carry him, mounted people kill stuff, Ike Seizes last turn- Ike's combat is sort of a nonfactor except for being able to survive a few enemies near the throne.

Ike has his durability advantage going for him, not that he'll always be dropped last turn. Boyd's supports don't even assist in his durability, whereas Ike gets easy As with Oscar and a nice B with Titania... Boyd can get an A with Titania and a B with like Mist and that gives him +3 Def but zero evade.. Ike gets +1 Def and +40 evade. Ike requires less resources to keep alive, essentially. I'd say both units are hard to compare to one another at this point, because it's basically unmounted durability vs unmounted offense :|

[-Cynthia-]

Neither help particularly much in the big mounted charges, if at all, but Tormod is much more likely to see action than Nephenee (hate repeating this point, if only because it bothers me, since I'm aware that you understand it and all, sorry if it ends up being annoying). He also has siege tomes and Reyson support to boost his ability to use siege tomes -- this actually allows him to more easily take out bosses that have a little bit of HP left or need one more push to get someone else to kill them. It may be situational but it's something that he can at least help with when the mounted units are dominating; Nephenee doesn't have access to that privilege nor can she use a staff when needed (if ever, I don't think staffs outside of endgame rescue staffs are useful).

Rhys's healing earlygame is somewhat helpful, Physicing far away units can help their durability some and Restore can see use on a chapter or two. Doesn't help Tormod's case though.

Tormod might be able to see a bit more action on 16+, but Nephenee obviously does more than Tormod when he doesn't exist. Nephenee is also a little "cheaper" BEXP wise, since she gets to doubling more quickly than he does (and thus non-shitty offense)- though she still needs a fair amount. I guess when it comes to BEXP cost Stefan's the real winner, since he's fine at base.

Boots!Reyson isn't necessarily more helpful because of his durability issues. He still needs to survive enemy phase, and that's kind of a big if. His movement goes up to 10 when transformed but... he can't Canto without the Knight Band and if he's even utilizing the Knight Band he's pretty much going the same distance he'd go if he had 8 movement instead so why bother giving him Boots at all? He'll still outrace most of your units in that case so he's pretty much not making full use of boots, and transporting him is not an issue at alll.

Well it does allow him to Vigor a unit further away, which could probably shave a turn here or there. I haven't actually tested Boots Reyson myself, so I'm pretty much just theorizing here. Not sure Boots Ike isn't a terrible idea either, since we don't have to carry him as close to the throne. Marcia/Jill probably are the best choices, but I'm not sure they're so far ahead that the Boots can be used as a point for them opposed to Titania.

Durability comes into question here too, though, and Steel Swords can easily be forged early on. Not like we're forging much with 1-range weapons anyway, since we don't get 1-2 range weapon forges till after Ike's promotion.

I was comparing them in C9 where Ike wouldn't have Steel forge access yet, but yeah Boyd's 1-2 range game also increases in strength.

=

Ike has his durability advantage going for him, not that he'll always be dropped last turn. Boyd's supports don't even assist in his durability, whereas Ike gets easy As with Oscar and a nice B with Titania... Boyd can get an A with Titania and a B with like Mist and that gives him +3 Def but zero evade.. Ike gets +1 Def and +40 evade. Ike requires less resources to keep alive, essentially. I'd say both units are hard to compare to one another at this point, because it's basically unmounted durability vs unmounted offense :|

It seems a little odd to push Ike>Boyd because of durability while trying to argue Tormod>Nephenee at the same time (Tormod's durability is much worse than Boyd's by a fair margin).

Tormod moved above Soren for now.

[aku chi]

Tormod moved above Soren for now.

As a point of interest, how does a failed Tormod > Nephenee argument lead to Tormod > Soren (who hasn't been mentioned)? We've been over this in great detail in the recent past. I've only seen one new fact been brought into consideration: that Soren cannot reach relevant siege targets without ferrying that Tormod can - which has not be substantiated (aside from a dubious Meteor use late in C21).

[12:24:12] <Mercenary_Raven> so playing my efficiency run

[12:24:13] <Mercenary_Raven> i have decied

[12:24:16] <Mercenary_Raven> decided

[12:24:19] <Mercenary_Raven> ther eneeds to be 3 tiers in fe9

[12:24:21] <Mercenary_Raven> flier tier

[12:24:29] <Mercenary_Raven> not flier but has good offense for a time tier

[12:24:35] <Mercenary_Raven> and then why the fuck would you use these faggots tier

[12:25:59] <Mercenary_Raven> oh mounted tier as well

That is my honest opinion on how this list should be revamped LOL, I literally see no use for most of the list. In fact, I do believe Tormod should be bumped up to High (or at least above Nephenee) simply because of his movement advantage.

Go ahead and make your own tier list, then. You can call it: I tier the units - without a proper sense of costs and benefits - based on a single LTC run where I didn't play very efficiently: and still come to the wrong conclusions. I'm sure it will be a popular topic.

I plan to respond to some of the rest of Mercenary Raven's outburst of posts that materialized overnight (my time).

[dondon151]

You can call it: I tier the units - without a proper sense of costs and benefits

Actually, I think you're the one here without a proper sense of costs and benefits. Lord Raven's suggested tier list conforms very closely to a ranking system that ranks units based on economic profit, which is their net benefit minus their opportunity cost. Fliers have a greater net benefit than grounded mounted units, who in turn have a greater net benefit than grounded infantry. Grounded infantry and fliers incur generally identical opportunity costs for their resources because the next best alternative is a flier or a grounded mounted unit.

based on a single LTC run where I didn't play very efficiently:

Bullshit; even going by your arbitrary and largely counterintuitive definition of efficiency, Lord Raven's playthrough meets a pretty high standard because he didn't reset often, if at all, on each map to ensure low success rates. FE9 is just like that because it strongly promotes overleveling player units.

[aku chi]

Actually, I think you're the one here without a proper sense of costs and benefits. Lord Raven's suggested tier list conforms very closely to a ranking system that ranks units based on economic profit, which is their net benefit minus their opportunity cost. Fliers have a greater net benefit than grounded mounted units, who in turn have a greater net benefit than grounded infantry. Grounded infantry and fliers incur generally identical opportunity costs for their resources because the next best alternative is a flier or a grounded mounted unit.

You heard it here first! Ulki > Titania!

Bullshit; even going by your arbitrary and largely counterintuitive definition of efficiency, Lord Raven's playthrough meets a pretty high standard because he didn't reset often, if at all, on each map to ensure low success rates. FE9 is just like that because it strongly promotes overleveling player units.

Wow so fuck this chapter. God i hated every moment of it, I had to restart it like 50 times because it was just a fucking terrible chapter.

And that's only the half of it. Mercenary Raven isn't even getting super-low turncounts.

And if your intuition tells you that restarting a chapter multiple times is efficient, you might want to have your intuition checked for faults.

[Lord Raven]

Rhys's healing earlygame is somewhat helpful, Physicing far away units can help their durability some and Restore can see use on a chapter or two. Doesn't help Tormod's case though.

I actually don't think Restore is all that necessary in many chapters -- at best C21, but a transformed Muarim can easily take a Sleep shot and then something else can kill the Bishop anyway. Tormod's actually useful in this chapter because he can reach the mages *really* easily in C21, and he can do enough damage to *not* kill them. This is beneficial because when you're dropping Ike, you don't want him getting to Sleep; even with a pure water Ike dodging sleep is iffy. The Bishop is retarded enough to give precedence to the Sages with a Physic staff than to Sleep Ike (or for that matter, Jill if she's also down there, but Marcia's a better choice because she can very easily dodge enemies and she has the resistance to go against the far more accurate Mages).

As for Physic, you've got me there. I don't think Healing is all that necessary in this game, though, because of how easily your units can survive (and biorhythm for hit rates is easily manipulated because enemy stats/your biorhythm change every time you restart the game even if you saved at preparations, unlike FE10).

Tormod might be able to see a bit more action on 16+, but Nephenee obviously does more than Tormod when he doesn't exist. Nephenee is also a little "cheaper" BEXP wise, since she gets to doubling more quickly than he does (and thus non-shitty offense)- though she still needs a fair amount. I guess when it comes to BEXP cost Stefan's the real winner, since he's fine at base.

idk Stefan doesn't have all that much utility even if he requires no resources and it seems like one of those things thats "hard to judge" because of the fact that one has high move utility (not quite mounted) and the other doesn't. Nephenee does do things (well not in C15, but that's where Thieves/Marcia/Jill truly shine anyway) when she's around, but they're often times shared with others and what she contributes pre-16 isn't as important as what Tormod contributes post-16.

Well it does allow him to Vigor a unit further away, which could probably shave a turn here or there. I haven't actually tested Boots Reyson myself, so I'm pretty much just theorizing here. Not sure Boots Ike isn't a terrible idea either, since we don't have to carry him as close to the throne. Marcia/Jill probably are the best choices, but I'm not sure they're so far ahead that the Boots can be used as a point for them opposed to Titania.

Actually, they are pretty far ahead. If you think about it, a standard rush strategy consists of them going far enough on Turn 1 that Reyson can Vigor them at the tip of his range (after being shoved around a decent bit), then Marcia/Jill going on for many turns. With 9 move, you get essentially 6 less spaces to traverse in a standard 3 turn strategy -- not counting the amount of shoving Reyson and Marill (I'm tired of typing Marcia/Jill, so I'll just talk about Pokemon) can take as well. This is also movement not hampered by terrain, which mounted units don't necessary have access to.

Reyson himself has to wait until Turn 2 to be able to do do anything, and sometimes Turn 5 because there's only 4 uses of a Laguz Stone you could rationally get.

It seems a little odd to push Ike>Boyd because of durability while trying to argue Tormod>Nephenee at the same time (Tormod's durability is much worse than Boyd's by a fair margin).

The difference is the movement and their likeliness to see combat, as well as the situation in later chapters and just how different they are in nature to the earlier chapters.

As a point of interest, how does a failed Tormod > Nephenee argument lead to Tormod > Soren (who hasn't been mentioned)? We've been over this in great detail in the recent past. I've only seen one new fact been brought into consideration: that Soren cannot reach relevant siege targets without ferrying that Tormod can - which has not be substantiated (aside from a dubious Meteor use late in C21).

You compared them quite simply as healers, whereas I've compared them as foot units on top of siege units. Tormod is receiving more combat and can heal much more because units need to go far less out of their way to get to Tormod if he wishes to heal them -- not like Healing is very necessary anyway. Tormod's also not made of glass like Soren and can take more hits before going down, though Str/AS isn't a very large point to warrant it as an argument. I don't think Soren is doubling much more than Tormod is, at any rate, although you can afford to forge one or two forged Thunder tomes -- it just happens that if you reduce weight, it gets really expensive really fast.

Go ahead and make your own tier list, then. You can call it: I tier the units - without a proper sense of costs and benefits - based on a single LTC run where I didn't play very efficiently: and still come to the wrong conclusions. I'm sure it will be a popular topic.

I plan to respond to some of the rest of Mercenary Raven's outburst of posts that materialized overnight (my time).

I was actually making a joke, but I guarantee you I have seen many more LTC/Efficiency runs that do a good job of showing just how much utility Marcia and mounted units have. Oddly enough, very very few of them had Jill because she wasn't recruited.

You heard it here first! Ulki > Titania!

Ulki's flier utility is much different to Marcia and Jill's, because he barely saves turns with it, has the laguz gauge to worry about, and he can't rescue drop nearly as easily as those two because of his lack of Canto; it slows things down as a result. Tormod does have no Canto going against him too, but Ulki is a very very poor replacement for fliers as is. He also can't have Full Guard and Demi Band at once.

ie don't be a smartass.

And that's only the half of it. Mercenary Raven isn't even getting super-low turncounts.

And if your intuition tells you that restarting a chapter multiple times is efficient, you might want to have your intuition checked for faults.

You know why that happened right? Because I made some positioning errors with my non-rushing units that were in the back and they kept dying. It just so happened I was sick of enacting that complicated shoving chain every single time I had to restart; I'm having the same exact problem with C26, because someone keeps dying due to some random positioning error because I'm too aggressive with the units that aren't as important (or Ike is 8 spaces away from the seize point smh).

I might have had to proc some things, but I had backup just in case said proc didn't work, and I stated what I'd do and how I'd change it in the case that it didn't. I even suggested an alternate, less complicated and bitchtastic way in which I could finish C21 without having to proc a Wrath crit later on even if I didn't do it myself, and that was with the resources handed to me. The Killer Lance crit against Muarim was the only critical I had ever proc'd, because I didn't manage to get ahold of the laguz lance from the previous chapter and the Killer Lance crit itself had a 64% chance of occurring which is a very good chance, especially for a simple 2 turn.

And of course I'm not getting super-low turncounts. You think the fliers are any less important when I am doing a super-low turncount run? If anything, mounted and flying units become *even more* important if we're going for lower turncounts.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Zkirsche]

You compared them quite simply as healers, whereas I've compared them as foot units on top of siege units. Tormod is receiving more combat and can heal much more because units need to go far less out of their way to get to Tormod if he wishes to heal them -- not like Healing is very necessary anyway. Tormod's also not made of glass like Soren and can take more hits before going down, though Str/AS isn't a very large point to warrant it as an argument. I don't think Soren is doubling much more than Tormod is, at any rate, although you can afford to forge one or two forged Thunder tomes -- it just happens that if you reduce weight, it gets really expensive really fast.

1) Good thing we have plenty of money then.

2) Tormod is not that much more durable than Soren, so stop exaggerating. He still get's 3HKO'ed (and still very weakened from 2 hits, A wyvern in chapter 18 leaves a 20/1 tormod with 1 HP).

3) Soren has a lot more availability than Tormod. This is quite important in some cases as even if he's just taking potshots, Boyd/Oscar don't really ORKO in the very starting stages of the game, so the weakening can definitely help. Bonus damage vs ravens is quite nice in chapter 12 (and he certainly doesn't get left behind there), and chapter 13 is quite eclosed as well so he can probably engage in combat.

4) Tormod himself doesn't do much more than what Soren does in the earlygame: taking potshots and clearing weakened enemies to move ahead. He doesn't have more physic range than Soren due to Soren's higher mag and even after 1-2 turns he would have been left in the dust by the fliers/paladins.

5) To add to that, Tormod takes up a lot more resources to become mr.potshot than Soren does, even if he has slightly more mov.

[Radiant Dragon]

1) Good thing we have plenty of money then.

Why are we forging Thunder tomes, though? Early on, people want forged Iron weapons to ORKO without tons of BEXP. Then Steel becomes available, and later 1-2 range. Elthunder is pretty comparable to a forged Thunder, and it doesn't prevent us from wasting one of our opportunities to forge a more useful weapon.

2) Tormod is not that much more durable than Soren, so stop exaggerating. He still get's 3HKO'ed (and still very weakened from 2 hits, A wyvern in chapter 18 leaves a 20/1 tormod with 1 HP).

Said wyvern in Chapter 18 would kill Soren, so that's a very relevant advantage Tormod has.

3) Soren has a lot more availability than Tormod. This is quite important in some cases as even if he's just taking potshots, Boyd/Oscar don't really ORKO in the very starting stages of the game, so the weakening can definitely help.

This is the only reason I'm not 100% sure on Tormod > Soren.

Bonus damage vs ravens is quite nice in chapter 12 (and he certainly doesn't get left behind there), and chapter 13 is quite eclosed as well so he can probably engage in combat.

Effective damage is pitiful in this game, and Ravens have decent RES if I remember correctly. What level does Soren need to be to ORKO reliably in Chapter 13 without a forge?

4) Tormod himself doesn't do much more than what Soren does in the earlygame: taking potshots and clearing weakened enemies to move ahead.

Why are we using someone to make them nothing more than 'Mr. Potshot'? It's not hard to get Tormod to ORKO after promotion, since he can actually use Elthunder without losing Speed, and he can always reach more enemies and be more flexible than Soren.

He doesn't have more physic range than Soren due to Soren's higher mag and even after 1-2 turns he would have been left in the dust by the fliers/paladins.

Neither will be using Physic until Endgame, if that. And Tormod doesn't end up one turn behind 9 move units until turn 8 or so.

[Lord Raven]

Why are we forging Thunder tomes, though? Early on, people want forged Iron weapons to ORKO without tons of BEXP. Then Steel becomes available, and later 1-2 range. Elthunder is pretty comparable to a forged Thunder, and it doesn't prevent us from wasting one of our opportunities to forge a more useful weapon.

To be perfectly fair, it's hard to actually get Iron forges to break and there is one chapter where we can afford a tome forge. After the tome forge, there's steel and ranged weapons that you'd want to forge eventually.

Effective damage is pitiful in this game, and Ravens have decent RES if I remember correctly. What level does Soren need to be to ORKO reliably in Chapter 13 without a forge?

lol Wind gets like +2 Mt against Ravens and Elwind is +5 Mt against them (I'm not arguing against you).

As for your question, Soren needs 19 Atk to ORKO everything and 14 exactly to take out Myrmidons that are weighed down. He also needs like 16+ AS to double everything and 12 AS to double almost half the map, something that is manageable but he definitely needs a forge to do it all with.

Neither will be using Physic until Endgame, if that. And Tormod doesn't end up one turn behind 9 move units until turn 8 or so.

You barely need to heal in this game as is, so neither will ever be using Physic. In fact, Elincia can use Physic the moment she comes in and she's probably better for that because you don't have to go through the hassle of using Heal like 20+ times between Chapters 18 and Endgame (29).

3) Soren has a lot more availability than Tormod. This is quite important in some cases as even if he's just taking potshots, Boyd/Oscar don't really ORKO in the very starting stages of the game, so the weakening can definitely help. Bonus damage vs ravens is quite nice in chapter 12 (and he certainly doesn't get left behind there), and chapter 13 is quite eclosed as well so he can probably engage in combat.

Let me run through what exactly Soren is doing in the chapters he has over Tormod.

Chapter 4: he cannot do anything here other than some minor chip. He's getting a fraction of a level here at best, considering it's an easy 2 turn to pull off (and he doesn't at all help with a 2 turn).

Chapter 5: This is a level gaining map. He does nothing of note here other than doing some random chip damage here and there and taking some EXP. Level 2 coming out of this chapter is likely, probably 2.80 or 2.90.

Chapter 6: Him and Boyd stand back and take out Soldiers and shit, they don't do anything special. It's worth noting that enemies have like 30-40% hit on base Soren here even if they 2HKO him. Generally Boyd does nothing to help but bait things away from Ike, Oscar, and Titania while they charge forward to the escape point, Soren contributes pretty much nothing. He is level 4 coming out of here.

Chapter 7: He helps kill things, and he can ORKO random Archers with Adept, but that's just about it. Probably Level 5 coming out of here.

Chapter 8: Brings out more chip damage and idk what level he'd be at from here on out.

Chapter 9: He can't charge south effectively enough, so he takes the west and takes EXP from there. He can kill things Mia and everyone else weaken, but he doesn't contribute anything of noteworthy value to this chapter other than taking hits every once in a while for Mist to heal.

Chapter 10: He doesn't help at all with stealth or with charging. He damages the boss and that's just about it.

Chapter 11: He can't defend against the Vigilantes and he can't kill anything of note particularly well without someone else chipping (but he can chip). His offense and defense prevent him from being unequip bait from the Vigilantes.

Chapter 12: He doesn't do enough to OHKO the Crows without Adept, and even with Adept it turns a 3HKO into a 2HKO. Elwind is basically 8 Mt against the birds, and a forged Wind tome is like 14 Mt, but you don't want to forge Winds; waste of money, I'd rather forge a thunder that helps much more with the long term. Besides, you're only up against like 3 crows at best, which any amount of units can gang up on and kill. Marcia takes on the boss and kills him quite easily. Combat is not completely necessary here, and if you really want effective damage you have the Laguzslayer.

Chapter 13: You need to rout by Turn 7, and 3 or 4-turn routs are easy to do. He contributes not extraordinarily, but he's still just another attacking unit and I think he is able to ORKO a good number of units, but he only has player phase to do so. He is definitely useful here in combat, though, I will give you that, and you need all the combat you can get.

Chapter 14: I can't think of anything he can do in this chapter that would contribute to a low turn clear.

Chapter 15: You can't kill anything here anyway, and Soren does virtually nothing to not help you kill (ie, beat the chapter ASAP so too many laguz don't get up on your ass, since you gotta send Volke and Sothe pretty far and you don't want them getting killed).

His earlygame and early-midgame utility is nothing of note. I've already compared their lategames effectively enough, and Tormod is not crucial but extremely helpful in the things that he can do much more effectively than Callil simply because of his 8 move. He makes great use of the Spirit Dusts simply because of that.

(I was making Soren > Tormod arguments earlier, but I didn't realize just how much Celerity would help with later chapters -- it helps that I was pre-chapter 19 when I was making the arguments against Tormod).

[Radiant Dragon]

To be perfectly fair, it's hard to actually get Iron forges to break and there is one chapter where we can afford a tome forge. After the tome forge, there's steel and ranged weapons that you'd want to forge eventually.

What chapter is this? We have 6 chapters to forge before Steel becomes available and Soren misses his chance, and there are far more than 6 people who would like a forge and use it better.

As for your question, Soren needs 19 Atk to ORKO everything and 14 exactly to take out Myrmidons that are weighed down. He also needs like 16+ AS to double everything and 12 AS to double almost half the map, something that is manageable but he definitely needs a forge to do it all with.

He won't have a forge. Assuming he doesn't get any Strength until he promotes (I'm not rounding 50% up when he has a 5% growth), he needs to be level 18 to have 12 AS and double almost half of the map with Thunder. Only level 13 to have 12 AS with Wind, but now he's probably missing 2HKOs (I'd need to double check, though).

Chapter 5: This is a level gaining map. He does nothing of note here other than doing some random chip damage here and there and taking some EXP. Level 2 coming out of this chapter is likely, probably 2.80 or 2.90.

No way is Soren almost level 3 if he's only getting ~10 EXP a turn. Ike, Oscar and Boyd have a much higher priority for those kills, and can actually take more than 1 hit before dying.

Chapter 6: Him and Boyd stand back and take out Soldiers and shit, they don't do anything special. It's worth noting that enemies have like 30-40% hit on base Soren here even if they 2HKO him. Generally Boyd does nothing to help but bait things away from Ike, Oscar, and Titania while they charge forward to the escape point, Soren contributes pretty much nothing. He is level 4 coming out of here.

30-40% hit seems really low, with his 19 avoid before Biorhythm.

Chapter 7: He helps kill things, and he can ORKO random Archers with Adept, but that's just about it. Probably Level 5 coming out of here.

He's still 4HKOing things, so not even Adept (with it's 8% activation rate) is getting him ORKOs. This map is rout though, so he is useful for helping combine for kills.

Chapter 10: He doesn't help at all with stealth or with charging. He damages the boss and that's just about it.

Soren isn't deployed here if we're going stealth, and does nothing of note if we're rushing.

[Kaoz]

30-40% hit seems really low, with his 19 avoid before Biorhythm.

Soren has no real problems here as he can use the trees as cover and Rhys can heal him if necessary. There's also Boyd who can help out when necessary.

[Lord Raven]

What chapter is this? We have 6 chapters to forge before Steel becomes available and Soren misses his chance, and there are far more than 6 people who would like a forge and use it better.

There are? We have Oscar, Marcia, Kieran, Boyd, Nephenee, Ike, Kia. Marcia, Oscar, and Nephenee can trade theirs around if one of them don't end up getting one, and I doubt you're actually using *all* of those units. Sparing Soren a forge somewhere (one we can pass onto Tormod eventually) isn't out of the question.

He won't have a forge. Assuming he doesn't get any Strength until he promotes (I'm not rounding 50% up when he has a 5% growth), he needs to be level 18 to have 12 AS and double almost half of the map with Thunder. Only level 13 to have 12 AS with Wind, but now he's probably missing 2HKOs (I'd need to double check, though).

Therefore, he isn't helping much. Good to know.

No way is Soren almost level 3 if he's only getting ~10 EXP a turn. Ike, Oscar and Boyd have a much higher priority for those kills, and can actually take more than 1 hit before dying.

He can get a kill from Shinon or Gatrie weakening something in C3. C5 is around 6 turns defend and he can easily take kills too without dragging the entire team back at all.

He's still 4HKOing things, so not even Adept (with it's 8% activation rate) is getting him ORKOs. This map is rout though, so he is useful for helping combine for kills.

If he's Level 3 or 4 coming in he gets a solid 2RKO on Steel Bow archers (3HKO), but you definitely need to combine for kills on the north/east sides because Titania is taking the massive enemy density in the south/west sides.

Soren isn't deployed here if we're going stealth, and does nothing of note if we're rushing.

More or less. If we're going stealth he can finish off the boss if Titania misses with a Hammer or something, but that's if you're going for 12 turns to get all the treasure and nobody does that.

[Zkirsche]

Why are we forging Thunder tomes, though? Early on, people want forged Iron weapons to ORKO without tons of BEXP. Then Steel becomes available, and later 1-2 range. Elthunder is pretty comparable to a forged Thunder, and it doesn't prevent us from wasting one of our opportunities to forge a more useful weapon.

Except elthunder has 2 less mt, 10 less hit (assuming we aren't putting +hit on the forges) and a lot more weight. We have plenty of bexp and forging opportunities to keep everyone ORKOing forever and a day.

Said wyvern in Chapter 18 would kill Soren, so that's a very relevant advantage Tormod has.

24 mt only ORKO's a level 8 soren. Soren is 2HKO'ed, yes, but when the difference is 1 HP then it's next to nothing as Tormod would really rather not go into combat at all on EP, just like Soren.

Effective damage is pitiful in this game, and Ravens have decent RES if I remember correctly. What level does Soren need to be to ORKO reliably in Chapter 13 without a forge?

Ravens have more def than res, and teh effective bonus is always nice.

Level 15ish with Elwind. He also 2RKO's Ravens with Elwind at that level. Level 13 if you gave him the spirit dust. If you gave him a thunder forge, he can ORKO at level 11. Assuming strength band usage.

Why are we using someone to make them nothing more than 'Mr. Potshot'? It's not hard to get Tormod to ORKO after promotion, since he can actually use Elthunder without losing Speed, and he can always reach more enemies and be more flexible than Soren.

Tormod's main use will be in being able to clear enemies that are 15-18 spaces away from the starting point, as that's where he'll be after two turns. All Tormod really does to complete chapters is clear the few enemies at that stage, before the paladins rush past and he gets left behind.

Neither will be using Physic until Endgame, if that. And Tormod doesn't end up one turn behind 9 move units until turn 8 or so.

Assuming he's clearing enemies for the paladins to keep moving, he'll be left behind after turn 3 or so, simply because he won't be able to use all 8 mov.

[Radiant Dragon]

We have plenty of bexp and forging opportunities to keep everyone ORKOing forever and a day.

I guess it depends on who you're using. There are so many more units who want a forge in those 6 opportunities we have before Steel becomes available that I find it hard to justify wasting one on Soren.

24 mt only ORKO's a level 8 soren. Soren is 2HKO'ed, yes, but when the difference is 1 HP then it's next to nothing as Tormod would really rather not go into combat at all on EP, just like Soren.

I meant Wyverns, obviously. And you can't just hand-wave the fact that there are relevant unit combinations that Tormod can face without dying that Soren can not.

Assuming strength band usage.

Hmm... I'm not sure it's justifiable to give Soren the band opposed to a physical unit who would put that strength to better use, but that may just be me.

Tormod's main use will be in being able to clear enemies that are 15-18 spaces away from the starting point, as that's where he'll be after two turns. All Tormod really does to complete chapters is clear the few enemies at that stage, before the paladins rush past and he gets left behind.

Assuming he's clearing enemies for the paladins to keep moving, he'll be left behind after turn 3 or so, simply because he won't be able to use all 8 mov.

Why are we clearing enemies out of the Paladins' way when they ORKO everything and have Canto?

[Anouleth]

Level 15ish with Elwind. He also 2RKO's Ravens with Elwind at that level. Level 13 if you gave him the spirit dust. If you gave him a thunder forge, he can ORKO at level 11. Assuming strength band usage.

There's no Spirit Dust in Chapter 13.

[aku chi]

Trust me, 8 move on a magic user is quite a boon, especially because there are instances where you can position your magic user in the back and they can still reach your mounts if they truly need to, and they can do it a lot better than your foot units. Judging by my efficiency playthrough, Titania did all the work in the first thirds, and Marcia did pretty much everything in the next 50% of the game, and Marcia/Jill are now tagteaming for the final sixth... so the tier list, if we're going by efficiency, could definitely use a bit of revamping to reflect something like that. I doubt Titania deserves to be an entire tier above Marcia and Jill; in fact, I don't even think Oscar/Kieran should be in the same tier as those two.

I apologize in advance if I respond to your posts with undue hostility, but I believe that you're making a huge logical blunder. You are basing your judgements almost primarily on one particular LTC run that you are completing. You have, therefore, intimate knowledge of what can be accomplished with the units you deployed and the strategies you used. However, you do not, on the basis of this one run, have any first-hand knowledge of what is possible with different units or different strategies. This has lead you to many false conclusions, in my judgement - a couple of which are represented in this paragraph alone (and I'll be pointing out more as we go along). In general, you need to be more dedicated and creative coming up with counter-factual clears that differ from your own. It is also not a safe assumption that your clears were all optimal (I know for a fact that several were not).

How often you used Titania, Marcia, and Jill is not at all a comprehensive indication of how valuable these units are to efficiency runs in general. I'm confident that I could use Titania plus two of: { Oscar, Marcia, Jill } and accomplish more efficient clears than you. I could use Jill not at all and Marcia sparingly and vica versa. You chose to use Marcia in situations where a Paladin would have done better with similar resources. I could have used Oscar (or Kieran) instead. You chose to use Marcia in situations where Jill or Tanith would have done at least as well (with similar resources).

Likewise, you used Tormod from C18 onward: you did not use another Sage. You have first-hand knowledge what Tormod can accomplish but no knowledge (from this run) what Soren or Calill could accomplish in Tormod's stead. You claim, for instance, that Tormod can reach relevant siege targets that the other Sages cannot without ferrying. Your basis for this is that Tormod can reach them. This is half an argument. You also need to demonstrate that Soren cannot (without ferrying).

I wouldn't be making these points now if I didn't realize just how fucking ridiculous mount (especially flying) and high move in general was in this game. Holy Christ.

You are quite late in the realization. Take a look at the current tier list. Notice that only three mounted units, Geoffrey, Haar, and Elincia, are lower than High Tier. Also notice that Haar, Geoffrey, and Elincia are still higher than any unit with equal or lesser availability. In fact, the only mounted units that are tiered below a non-mounted unit with equal or lesser availability are Astrid, Makalov, and Tanith tiered below Reyson - the best utility unit in the game, hands down. Also note that no Paladins are tiered above mounted fliers with equal or more availability. So before you propose changes stemming from your newfound realization, understand that you are not alone in realizing how valuable mounted units are in this game.

C26 is a rush towards the boss too, it's a Seize map. You may be thinking of C25, but the enemy density in later maps isn't huge that we need one person to go into a group of enemies and take them all out, especially since we have 17 deployment slots to get enemies away from Marcia/Jill ferrying Ike to the boss.

Here, you assume that Marcia or Jill need to ferry Ike to the seize square, when any trained Paladin is at least as well suited for the task (and better than Marcia).

Chapter 24 isn't a map that showcases anyone's quality but the fliers, as I'd like to point out.

Again, this is flatly incorrect. Any durable Paladin can solo this chapter in four turns (with an initial vigor from Reyson). Any durable Paladin with the Boots can pull off a 3-turn clear just like a flier with the Boots. Flying only allows one to avoid fewer enemy attacks on route to the Arrive Square. And even with that advantage, Full Guard Marcia undoubtedly has more durability problems than any trained Paladin with the Knight Ward. And while it is less realistic to give a Paladin the Boots, it is worth pointing out that on Chapter 24: flying is not essential to an efficient clear. Also, there are some valuables in far away houses that we want to get to, so durable units are helpful to get Savior in the north and (less importantly) a durable flier and durable cargo is useful for getting Nihil to the west.

In the end we're tiering a pretty easy game anyway, so it's hard not to exaggerate certain things.

Then you should be extra careful not to exaggerate. That there is a lot of Bexp available and enemy units aren't terribly deadly does not mean that taking Bexp is costless or that durability is irrelevant. I would have hoped that your ongoing LTC run would have demonstrated this to you: your units were perpetually underleved despite using up all your Bexp and you frequently restarted due to certain units dying.

Marcia and Jill have significant combat over Tanith, which comes in handy for rush maps.

That is not true. Jill has some combat leads over Tanith, most notably in the physical durability department. Even with significantly more resources, Marcia only leads Tanith by a couple points in Strength. But Tanith has an important advantage by being able to ORKO tough enemies with the magic weapons (Wyvern Lords with the Sonic Sword, Tigers & Cats with the Flame Lance, and some Generals with the Rune Sword). These are enemies that even Jill needs a Silver forge to 2HKO, Marcia might miss altogether, but Tanith can ORKO at 1-2 range. Tanith also has a Speed lead over Jill that lets her double the fastest enemies with very few resources. Tanith also has Reinforce, which is almost always handy and very helpful in C25 in particular.

Marcia most likely has boots. Not that Tanith is irrelevant, Tanith just isn't able to replace them as easily because one of them is quite easily getting boots (Marcia seems to double things a lot better than Jill) and the Boots come in handy for Chapters 16 and 17.

Marcia, Jill, and Reyson are all realistic Boots candidates. But if I were training both Marcia and Jill, I'd prefer to give Jill the Boots. Jill can double everything with a Speedwing and a healthy level lead. Marcia's poor durability is much harder to fix. Even with a Seraph Robe and Dracoshield and the Full Guard, Marcia has durability concerns in the later chapters. On the other hand, Marcia can be shoved by a couple more units, so that might help us pull off some aggressive early-clears.

Marcia cannot be replicated. Marcia beats Jill in level for a while because she is most likely at a higher level when Jill joins and there isn't enough BEXP to catch Jill up. Marcia absolutely dominates for a bunch of chapters, essentially taking over Titania's role, and with Boots it becomes even more apparent. With Boots they beat Titania on a *bunch* of maps, by enough to make up for not existing in C1-7. Of course, they're not better, they just don't deserve to be one tier apart.

Stop spouting this nonsense. If you give Jill the same amount of Bexp you would give Marcia, she will be at most 1 level behind. Jill is just plain better than Marcia with similar resources. Marcia's big advantage over Jill is C12, which is severely lessened if you're recruiting Jill anyway. Titania can perform at least as well as Marcia, with fewer resources, in many chapters in their shared availability. Chapters 12, 15, 17-2, 17-4, 20, 21, and 25 are big wins for the fliers. Chapters 13, 17-1, 18, 23, 24, 28, and Endgame are potential small wins for the fliers. Titania is at least as good as Marcia (and often better) in Chapters 10, 11, 14, 16, 19, 22, 26, and 27. And then there's the little fact that Titania is by far the most important unit in chapters 1-9 with unique utility. Oh, and lets not forget some thing very important. Titania requires almost no resources to dominate more than half of the game. Marcia and Jill both need a bunch.

Level 13 is a little bit ridiculous though, we want to save enough BEXP for Marcia.

Let me get this straight... When Marcia needs 1000 Bexp to be useful, there's plenty of Bexp to go around. But when Boyd wants 500 Bexp, that's "ridiculous"? I don't disagree that Marcia makes better use of Bexp, but the costs are also obviously higher when Marcia takes twice as much.

Eh this is one of those tier list rule things, in that usually all characters are assumed to be recruited (I should perhaps state this in the OP, though most PoR recruitments are fairly easy so it's not an issue). I might assume not recruited if it's some crap unit like Wallace, but assuming we're not recruiting the best units on some runthroughs seems odd. I might change this policy if people would prefer we not have both recruited most of the time.

My preference is for all unit deployment possibilities to be considered. I think we should consider Marcia's potential 2-turn clear of C12 despite missing out on Jill (and some stat boosters). We should also consider 5-turning C9 despite missing out on Marcia. We should consider both units being recruited and deployed, and we should consider playthroughs where neither Marcia nor Jill are being trained. I realize that this is not a popular position, but I find the alternate (making unit deployment assumptions) dull and ill-suited to tier list debate.

Hmm this is an interesting point, because we can beat Ashnard with Ena, it just costs us turns.

It costs us more than just turns: it costs us Resolve at the very least. Transformed Ena without the Demi Band deals 0 damage to Ashnard at base. Even a level 20 Ena deals ~3-4 damage on average. Ena needs Resolve to be able to deal more damage than Ashnard recovers each turn. But Ena is also 2HKO by Ashnard at base, and needs Resolve to avoid being doubled. With a few levels, Ena can double Ashnard herself when in Resolve range, but then Ashnard fails to put her in Resolve range in one hit, making it hard to manipulate. Ena needs to be fully transformed to do anything worthwhile, so we also need to reserve for her a couple Laguz Stone uses, most likely. Defeating Ashnard with greater ease is a big win for Ike, in my opinion. Though, we should also consider Nasir, who can perform decently against Ashnard at base with just Resolve (though he still appreciates the Laguz Stones).

Boots can save you 2 turns on Chapter 16 and 3 on Chapter 17. In Chapter 17, Marcia needs to be able to take out all of the guys at the end (give her an Energy Drop and the Spear that the boss dropped in C16 and she's fine, the Halberdier also needs a certain amount of defense but that is pretty much the only variable) and she reaches them very easily with Boots. In part 2, if she's in the right position she needs a couple shoves to reach the Arrive point. Part 3 is just a "fuck around till the time runs out" map, and in part 4 the right shove chain with Lethe/Mordecai/Muarim/promoted Brom (lol, 3 levels of BEXP/scratch CEXP + Master Seal is good for him) gets her an easy 1 turn especially because Nosferatu will do shit all for damage.

LOL! This is the biggest example of your complete inability to consider the counter-factual. In actuality, Boots Marcia/Jill does not save a single turn in C16. A 5-turn is more than possible with just a couple 9-mov units. To be fair, a mounted unit with the Boots might help secure both the Dracoshield and Full Guard in 5 turns, which might not be possible otherwise.

As for Chapter 17, the Boots help save 2 turns at the very most. C17-1 can be 2-turned without the Boots. On C17-2, I believe, it is possible to 3-turn without Boots Marcia/Jill, but it requires perfect deployment (which you have to pre-plan) and a lot of shoves. But I also hear that Boots Marcia can 2-turn C17-2 if you get her in perfect position, shove her with all of the laguz plus Statue Frag'd Brom or Gatrie. I'm prepared to give the Boots credit for making a 3-turn easier and a 2-turn theoretically possible in C17-2. C17-4 can be easily 2-turned without the Boots. The Boots make a 1-turn possible, but you forfeit Adept and it's a little more dangerous as a downside.

Boots!Reyson isn't necessarily more helpful because of his durability issues. He still needs to survive enemy phase, and that's kind of a big if. His movement goes up to 10 when transformed but... he can't Canto without the Knight Band and if he's even utilizing the Knight Band he's pretty much going the same distance he'd go if he had 8 movement instead so why bother giving him Boots at all? He'll still outrace most of your units in that case so he's pretty much not making full use of boots, and transporting him is not an issue at alll.

You don't understand how best to take advantage of Transformed Boots Reyson, evidently. If you rescue/take/drop Reyson as you advance, the Boots let 4 9-mov units travel 2 spaces further each turn (18 spaces total). Transformed Boots Reyson can save 1-2 turns in C18 at the very least and makes three other clears more reliable, if not a turn faster (for instance, he can secure a 3-turn of C27 (but perhaps not with Resolve) and a more reliable 4-turn of C23 and a much more reliable 3-turn of C28). C21 is also a good showcase for Transformed Boots Reyson. He can enable a reliable 5-turn clear, but I'm not sure if that's also possible with Boots Marcia/Jill. On the other hand, I think Boots Jill/Marcia can save a turn in C24 and C26. There are certainly pros and cons to giving the Boots to Reyson, but he can make unique turn savings when transformed and therefore cannot be discounted as a Boots recipient.

Yeah he gets exactly 2RKOs with a Sonic Sword, but it surprisingly has enough uses for C25. I also had to use that one because of bad resource allocation so I don't actually consider my results all that accurate for C25, but I was surprised by the fact that 9 Mag + Sonic Sword 3HKO'd the boss, but the point is that ballisticians can go fuck themselves for making me do such a weird chain. Boyd didn't have enough durability to stay alive, the Swordmaster and Sage would eat him alive assuming he managed to somehow dodge all of the Halberdiers and the boss (I didn't have a Physic user either).

If you give Boyd Wrath and Vantage, he is one of the best units in C25. You can drop him at the top of the mountain with a forged Hand Axe (+crit) and watch him solo it all with high reliability. Without Wrath/Vantage, Boyd doesn't have the durability for a rescue/drop but can still tear up the right or left trails by himself. I don't have strong feelings about Ike vs. Boyd overall, but C25 is clearly one of Boyd's biggest late-game wins, assuming you're training him (which you gave up doing).

You compared them quite simply as healers, whereas I've compared them as foot units on top of siege units.

If you actually read the post I linked, you would see that you are wrong. I compared both the low-resources "staffbot" use of the Mages (earlier in the topic) and the high resources, more combat-focused use of the Mages (in the linked post). My conclusion was that Soren was clearly a better staffbot than Tormod and of very similar utility when given the resources needed to be a capable combat unit. So even if you use Soren's staffbot utility soley as a tiebreaker: Soren > Tormod. I have not seen any new evidence to make me reconsider my earlier evaluation. Soren has some utility before Tormod even joins. Soren still has slightly better offense than Tormod in their shared availability. Tormod's extra movement is helpful in several chapters which is just enough to compensate for Soren's availability leads, in my judgement.

I was actually making a joke

Who would laugh, I wonder? You seems motivated to make changes to the tier list based on a newfound realization of just how valuable the mounted units are in efficient PoR play. But the tier list already reflects this realization. So your efforts seem misdirected.

ie don't be a smartass.

Don't exaggerate unless you're prepared to be called out on it.

[Zkirsche]

I guess it depends on who you're using. There are so many more units who want a forge in those 6 opportunities we have before Steel becomes available that I find it hard to justify wasting one on Soren.

I woudl disagree, most of our units should be able to ORKO without forges, so really, there are more forging opportunities than are necessary.

I'd rather a unit that ORKO's with a forge than an extra 1000 bexp drain.

I meant Wyverns, obviously. And you can't just hand-wave the fact that there are relevant unit combinations that Tormod can face without dying that Soren can not.

No, but the difference between the two is far and away different than the durability difference between glass and a tank.

Hmm... I'm not sure it's justifiable to give Soren the band opposed to a physical unit who would put that strength to better use, but that may just be me.

Because if we use Soren we want to sandbag him as much as possible right?

Why are we clearing enemies out of the Paladins' way when they ORKO everything and have Canto?

This is an excellent point. Which brings up another important question: What does tormod do that has any significance at all?

There's no Spirit Dust in Chapter 13.

This is true, I always get the talisman confused with the spirit dust.

Edited August 27, 2011 by kirsche

[aku chi]

I woudl disagree, most of our units should be able to ORKO without forges, so really, there are more forging opportunities than are necessary.

With respect to iron forges, I agree. We should have no shortage of generic steel weapons, which have only 2 Mt less than a max-Mt iron forge. By the time C13 rolls around and we've made 5 iron forges already and steel forges are just around the corner, there's little demand for another iron forge. The cost of Soren taking a Thunder forge is minimal.

[Anouleth]

This is an excellent point. Which brings up another important question: What does tormod do that has any significance at all?

He kills enemies and heals. If killing enemies and healing aren't of significance, then what is?

[Zkirsche]

He kills enemies and heals. If killing enemies and healing aren't of significance, then what is?

But does him killing enemies actually contribute to the maps completion? With the exception of a few routs, I highly doubt it. Soren can weaken enemies early on for teammates to kill and can kill enemies himself in a few rout maps, which I would say is far more important than a second 8 mov healer.

[Kaoz]

But does him killing enemies actually contribute to the maps completion? With the exception of a few routs, I highly doubt it. Soren can weaken enemies early on for teammates to kill and can kill enemies himself in a few rout maps, which I would say is far more important than a second 8 mov healer.

What maps are you talking about? Soren does not speed up any of the early maps, except possibly chapter 7 (though I would doubt even that).

[Zkirsche]

What maps are you talking about? Soren does not speed up any of the early maps, except possibly chapter 7 (though I would doubt even that).

Chapter 13 and chapter 7 come most prominently to mind, although Soren might have more ease reaching the houses in chapter 9 as well.

But I'd still argue helping units get kill exp > another healer.

[Anouleth]

But does him killing enemies actually contribute to the maps completion?

Tell you what, how about you go and play the game, then come back and tell me how often killing enemies helped you beat the game? Because if you are questioning the value of killing enemies, then I wonder if you have ever even played a Fire Emblem.