How do you feel about...

[volkethereaper]

Doubters only serve to make my eventual victory that much sweeter.

You may have clinched it with that post. Anyway, glad no hard feelings. Sorry about the whole "For the love of logic..." crap. Just a bit torqued off lately, and I wrongfully took it out on you.

[Crystal Shards]

I've pointed out that arguing isn't the way to change my mind.

Then why are you even posting here? This is a place to debate and grow, not a place to say, "This is what I think nah nah nah nah nahhhhh nah! You can't change my miiiiiiiiiiind! I'm not even listening!!!!" Esau has been more than patient despite his jabs at your (lack of) logic and you're still not even bothering to make any sense.

[volkethereaper]

To be fair, this topic was started as a place to state our views moreso than debate them. Eclipse has every right not to be convinced by Esau's arguement. Now, choosing to rise to Esau's challenge may have voided that.

[Crystal Shards]

To be fair, this topic was started as a place to state our views moreso than debate them. Eclipse has every right not to be convinced by Esau's arguement. Now, choosing to rise to Esau's challenge may have voided that.

I didn't say she HAD to change her mind, only that if she was going to argue about it, she needs to at least keep an open mind. She's admitted she's not changing her mind no matter what Esau says, which means she's posting for absolutely no reason. Being stubborn and close-minded is far different than being unconvinced.

The topic's original purpose has changed. That's not Esau's fault.

[volkethereaper]

Never said it was Esau's fault. Why are you so interested in defending him? Otherwise, you are absolutely right.

[Esau of Isaac]

To be fair, I meet few people that, when faced with pure evidence that disproves or casts a position they strongly hold in doubt, will freely admit such. Individuals' doubts are rarely expressed such as to give me more of an opening to "win" the debate. So even if I've changed eclipse's mind ever so slightly, I doubt I'll hear about it until months later, if ever.

I will say that the more vehement one is in denying that I have made an impact in their thought process, the more surely I've struck a chord.

[Crystal Shards]

Never said it was Esau's fault. Why are you so interested in defending him? Otherwise, you are absolutely right.

I'm interested in defending him because he's right (not necessarily his beliefs, though I agree with those, but rather the spirit of the discussion), and because unlike a few people here, I actually enjoy an honest debate as opposed to dick measuring.

[eclipse]

Where I come from, it's state your piece if you've been asked, keep your head down, and don't throw a hissy fit if someone's views are completely opposite of yours (unless you happen to be alone with that person, and you know that person very, very well). It's usually decided very quickly to agree to disagree, and that's the end of it.

Trying to change the other person's mind will probably get you a mumbled, "That's nice," and not much else. Rest assured, there will be plenty said about you once you're out of earshot, and it probably won't be nice (assuming you're the race I think you are, the remarks will most likely be racist, too. I'll apologize for that, on behalf of those that should be doing it).

Unfortunately, mocking someone like me will not result in the change you'd like. Had you simply agreed to disagree, I'd be more open to what you'd say. Now, I'll be less likely to consider your view, because you weren't willing to respect the fact that I'm entitled to my own opinion, no matter how screwed up it seems to you.

Everyone lives in a place where logical meets illogical. Hearing about fundamentalist arguments over Pokemon and the Devil is a bit different from someone stating they would like to wipe the world clean of a race.

What about comparing another race to roaches? Blatant sexism? Discussing methods to cheat the educational system? Attempting to give me food that will make me extremely sick?

(for that last one, it's because my body sucks, and I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, but after a huge announcement over a birthday cake, I'd like to thing people would remember that. . .)

I've never left America, and have only traveled to areas wherein the chief demographic are whites. It's kind of hard to have otherwise.

If you have the opportunity to move to a place where you're a minority, please consider it. I think the exposure to different cultures will help you to communicate your ideas more effectively.

[Crystal Shards]

Now, I'll be less likely to consider your view, because you weren't willing to respect the fact that I'm entitled to my own opinion, no matter how screwed up it seems to you.

Um, he never said you weren't entitled to your opinion. He just expected you to be able to defend it, and so far... you've failed.

You can stop pretending to be a victim here now.

[eclipse]

Um, he never said you weren't entitled to your opinion. He just expected you to be able to defend it, and so far... you've failed.

You can stop pretending to be a victim here now.

My opinion is my opinion. It shouldn't need to be defended.

[Esau of Isaac]

Where I come from, it's state your piece if you've been asked, keep your head down, and don't throw a hissy fit if someone's views are completely opposite of yours (unless you happen to be alone with that person, and you know that person very, very well). It's usually decided very quickly to agree to disagree, and that's the end of it.

Alright. Where I live, it's generally not tolerated by the general population for someone to push forth views of genocide.

Trying to change the other person's mind will probably get you a mumbled, "That's nice," and not much else. Rest assured, there will be plenty said about you once you're out of earshot, and it probably won't be nice (assuming you're the race I think you are, the remarks will most likely be racist, too. I'll apologize for that, on behalf of those that should be doing it).

Cool. You live around weird people.

Unfortunately, mocking someone like me will not result in the change you'd like. Had you simply agreed to disagree, I'd be more open to what you'd say. Now, I'll be less likely to consider your view, because you weren't willing to respect the fact that I'm entitled to my own opinion, no matter how screwed up it seems to you.

I'll agree to disagree to the notion that my mocking your illogical views disparagingly won't change your mind better than if I didn't.

What about comparing another race to roaches? Blatant sexism? Discussing methods to cheat the educational system? Attempting to give me food that will make me extremely sick?

You're hitting the mark there at the first one. Other ones, probably not so much.

If you have the opportunity to move to a place where you're a minority, please consider it. I think the exposure to different cultures will help you to communicate your ideas more effectively.

How so?

My opinion is my opinion. It shouldn't need to be defended.

Might want to post in an area that isn't dedicated to argumentation, then.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Defeatist Elitist]

My opinion is my opinion. It shouldn't need to be defended.

Then your opinion is worthless. Literally. There is no value whatsoever in an opinion that will never be properly tested or examined.

You seem to feel that people shouldn't attack the opinions of others, and that we should agree to disagree more. Sometimes that's okay, but in the majority of cases, it isn't. And don't just take my word for it, take a look at what science (a system BASED around skepticism and completely discrediting and removing demonstrably incorrect viewpoints or theories) has done for us. While you may think that it makes things better to leave opinions be, a quick look around in the bigger picture will show you that it isn't. In places where absurd viewpoints have been left to run rampant, terrible things have happened. It is far better for people to evolve and improve their opinions through argumentation and criticism than it is for them to retain headfucked ideologies and ignorant worldviews, and then propogate them to the net detriment of humanity as a whole.

In short, it doesn't seem nice, but ultimately it's the better alternative.

[eclipse]

Cool. You live around weird people.

Criticizing opinions is weird on my end of things. Apparently, so is the notion of cooking certain types of seafood.

Everything's relative. :D

You're hitting the mark there at the first one. Other ones, probably not so much.

Sexism is a sore spot of mine, as is messing with certain government things (bonus points that I heard this in a school). As for the food. . .I don't like it when someone's offering me something that is yummy, but I can't eat.

How so?

Different cultures treat things differently. Your methods are most likely to be received well by those that were raised in American/Western European cultures (not sure about the latter. . .a little help?). However, this world has far more cultures than that, and there's a large chunk of this world that isn't American/Western European. In order to persuade people, you'll need to understand what they'll listen to. If you're not familiar with the other cultures that make up this world, you have a good chance of offending the person you're talking to, and offended people aren't the most receptive subjects. The fastest way to learn about other cultures is to live in one.

Given what I said earlier, it shouldn't be too hard to deduce the kind of culture I was raised in. :)

You might also want to study The Art of War. Persuasion and warfare aren't too far apart.

Might want to post in an area that isn't dedicated to argumentation, then.

I didn't realize the Serious Discussion forum was the Serious Debate forum. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[volkethereaper]

Eclipse has argued her case, and it is wrong to say she hasn't done so just because you don't find her arguements swaying. She hasn't found your arguements swaying, either. Does that invalidate them? No. You have set her an impossible task: swaying five+ people (Esau, Crystal, Dark Elves, Phoenix, and myself) who have come in with our own biases against her opinion. She's tried very hard to persuade us. Has it worked? No. I'm not persuaded, and none of the rest of you are, either. Yet, she tried. I would say she gave it a noble effort, and I can admire that. So you can say she hasn't defended her point, but if your criteria is based on how successful her arguements have been, then take a look at your own and see where that's gotten you. Of course I expect your pide to get in the way of this, just as mine would. Yet, it must be said. I think she's giving up anyway, so you've won. What is it you've won, though? Have you swayed anybody? It seems to me you've gotten a lot of people who are of a similar mind to you to crawl out of the woodwork. Is that victory? Was that your goal? I find it hard to believe that you would be satisfied with simply stroking your own egos. But, in the end, that's all this is.

And to you Crystal: If ever there was a person who could defend themselves eloquently over the internet, it's Esau. Go ahead and keep defending him, though. I was just curious as to why you did. Thanks for letting me know.

Edited August 19, 2010 by volkethereaper

[Parrhesia]

I didn't realize the Serious Discussion forum was the Serious Debate forum. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Well, it is, quite literally, a forum for discussion. Esau is ... discussing the validity of your views with you in a ... for sake of argument, let's say 'jocular' manner.

[volkethereaper]

Indeed, and Eclipse is discussing her views with Esau in her own way also. We can't expect anything different, nor should we.

[Crystal Shards]

Eclipse has argued her case, and it is wrong to say she hasn't done so just because you don't find her arguements swaying. She hasn't found your arguements swaying, either. Does that invalidate them? No. You have set her an impossible task: swaying five+ people (Esau, Crystal, Dark Elves, Phoenix, and myself) who have come in with our own biases against her opinion. She's tried very hard to persuade us. Has it worked? No. I'm not persuaded, and none of the rest of you are, either. Yet, she tried. I would say she gave it a noble effort, and I can admire that. So you can say she hasn't defended her point, but if your criteria is based on how successful her arguements have been, then take a look at your own and see where that's gotten you. Of course I expect your pide to get in the way of this, just as mine would. Yet, it must be said. I think she's giving up anyway, so you've won. What is it you've won, though? Have you swayed anybody? It seems to me you've gotten a lot of people who are of a similar mind to you to crawl out of the woodwork. Is that victory? Was that your goal? I find it hard to believe that you would be satisfied with simply stroking your own egos. But, in the end, that's all this is.

And to you Crystal: If ever there was a person who could defend themselves eloquently over the internet, it's Esau. Go ahead and keep defending him, though. I was just curious as to why you did. Thanks for letting me know.

Eclipse's only defense of her opinion is juvenile: "It's my opinion. I shouldn't have to defend it." She hasn't defended anything else. It's not just that her "arguments" aren't swaying, but she's actually failing to defend her arguments in the most basic sense of the word. "This is how I feel," gets the response of, "Blah blah no one cares," in most debates. I don't see how this should be any different. Esau has asked her questions that she has failed to respond to. Please, tell me where she's actually been able to defend her point of view, and maybe I'll change my mind. That's not a pride thing, and I would suggest in the future you not throw that around when people are actually discussing things.

So no, the fact she hasn't changed any minds isn't what invalidates her arguments. The fact that she can't/won't even defend them to begin with aside from an answer a five-year-old would answer with is what invalidates them. Just because you fall for all of the "wahhh it's my opinion!" bullshit doesn't mean we need to.

The only people turning this into a situation where someone can "win" are you and Eclipse. The goal of the discussion was to actually discuss different viewpoints in an intelligible manner. If you can't explain why you believe a certain way in a manner that actually... explains... why you believe that way... well... don't post here.

[volkethereaper]

SHE'S BEEN ARGUING THE WHOLE TIME!!! Since page four she's been defending her opinion, under the constant scrutiny of you and Esau. Please, before further attacking what I say, go back and read what she's posted, and what you've posted in response. I have a feeling it will be enlightening. Or perhaps it won't, perhaps your the sort of person who dismisses an arguement just because you disagree with it. If that is the case than it is you who should not be posting here.

[Crystal Shards]

SHE'S BEEN ARGUING THE WHOLE TIME!!! Since page four she's been defending her opinion, under the constant scrutiny of you and Esau. Please, before further attacking what I say, go back and read what she's posted, and what you've posted in response. I have a feeling it will be enlightening. Or perhaps it won't, perhaps your the sort of person who dismisses an arguement just because you disagree with it. If that is the case than it is you who should not be posting here.

She's been arguing that it's her opinion and no one should touch it because of that and bringing up irrelevant arguments. I haven't attacked what you said and actually take great offense that you're even trying this bullshit. If you're going to categorize me as a certain type of person because I won't defend inane arguments, then perhaps you should just ignore me from now on, because I don't play those games.

[Esau of Isaac]

Different cultures treat things differently. Your methods are most likely to be received well by those that were raised in American/Western European cultures (not sure about the latter. . .a little help?). However, this world has far more cultures than that, and there's a large chunk of this world that isn't American/Western European. In order to persuade people, you'll need to understand what they'll listen to. If you're not familiar with the other cultures that make up this world, you have a good chance of offending the person you're talking to, and offended people aren't the most receptive subjects. The fastest way to learn about other cultures is to live in one.

I don't think there are many cultures where being rude to someone you're arguing with isn't normal. I've never heard of one, at the least. I mean, yeah, civility is one thing in cultures around the world. But arguing is kind of the opposite of civility anyways. Trying to be polite in debate gets trying real fast, especially when discussing views based on morality, or matters of politics. Debates are meant to be polite and intelligent, but it's possible to be either while not being both. And vice versa, in a funny sort of way.

Either way, I'm simply not going to up and move to a different country or altogether separate area to try and immerse myself in another culture for the purpose of persuading someone on an internet forum. Like, who would actually even consider doing that?

Given what I said earlier, it shouldn't be too hard to deduce the kind of culture I was raised in. :)

Comparing another race to roaches? Blatant sexism? Cheating the system? Attempting to poison you?

What, were you raised by Klingons or something? How am I supposed to deduce from that?

You might also want to study The Art of War. Persuasion and warfare aren't too far apart.

Except for the whole killing you thing. That's kind of an important difference.

Eclipse has argued her case, and it is wrong to say she hasn't done so just because you don't find her arguements swaying. She hasn't found your arguements swaying, either. Does that invalidate them? No. You have set her an impossible task: swaying five+ people (Esau, Crystal, Dark Elves, Phoenix, and myself) who have come in with our own biases against her opinion. She's tried very hard to persuade us. Has it worked? No. I'm not persuaded, and none of the rest of you are, either. Yet, she tried. I would say she gave it a noble effort, and I can admire that. So you can say she hasn't defended her point, but if your criteria is based on how successful her arguements have been, then take a look at your own and see where that's gotten you.

I'd say it's a pretty good position I've been put in. I've argued my points well, so long as we ignore the subsequent unrelated chatter, and have pointed out areas of illogic in eclipse's viewpoints. It could be easily argued that the entire reason that this discussion progressed to the point of questioning behavior is precisely because the debate was finished.

Of course I expect your pide to get in the way of this, just as mine would. Yet, it must be said. I think she's giving up anyway, so you've won. What is it you've won, though? Have you swayed anybody? It seems to me you've gotten a lot of people who are of a similar mind to you to crawl out of the woodwork. Is that victory? Was that your goal? I find it hard to believe that you would be satisfied with simply stroking your own egos. But, in the end, that's all this is.

I was going to make a witty remark about being interested in stroking my own ego, but I felt it was too much self-wanking over a short period of time. :V

Anyways, I doubt discussing whether someone has been swayed to my side of the debate is a reasonable metric by which to measure an individual's merit in basic argumentation. I mean, I would guess that it's at the end of the day an important facet of debate, but it's ultimately a kind of pointless goal. No opponent that actually puts up any kind of a meaningful fight will admit their mind was changed at the end of an argument, nor will they publicly state such until after the argument is long and dead. The point, rather, is to simultaneously disparage an opponent's viewpoint through various techniques and strengthen one's own viewpoint, thereby swaying the views or beliefs of the third party, the uninvolved participants.

I mean, you have to admit that while fallacious, ad hominem is an effective means of disparaging one's opponent.

And to you Crystal: If ever there was a person who could defend themselves eloquently over the internet, it's Esau.

More

Edited August 19, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[volkethereaper]

And you're and Esau's arguements are based on opinion also. The whole discussion is subjective, that's the point of it. And when it comes to categorizing people you're one to talk. Perhaps I will ignore you. You're lack of willingness to see how similar you are to everyone else is beyond irratating. I told Esau to shut up and quit taking himself so seriously, and I was wrong to do so. Telling you to do the same thing, though, seems perfectly reasonable.

EDIT: At Esau-My beef is not with you in the least. I think you've done an excellent job. My problem is with those other people who are kicking Eclipse while she's down. They seem to feel that she hasn't argued. I disagree. In the debate I'm having with Crystal, the point I'm trying to convey isn't that she argued well, but that it is incorrect to say she hasn't argued.

Edited August 19, 2010 by volkethereaper

[Crystal Shards]

And you're and Esau's arguements are based on opinion also. The whole discussion is subjective, that's the point of it. And when it comes to categorizing people you're one to talk. Perhaps I will ignore you. You're lack of willingness to see how similar you are to everyone else is beyond irratating. I told Esau to shut up and quit taking himself so seriously, and I was wrong to do so. Telling you to do the same thing, though, seems perfectly reasonable.

EDIT: At Esau-My beef is not with you in the least. I think you've done an excellent job. My problem is with those other people who are kicking Eclipse while she's down. They seem to feel that she hasn't argued. I disagree. In the debate I'm having with Crystal, the point I'm trying to convey isn't that she argued well, but that it is incorrect to say she hasn't argued.

Oooh baseless claims. Where have you said I'm similar to other people? Where have I denied that? This is fun! I love it when people try to insult me and have absolutely no grounds from which to do so!

I'm not taking myself seriously. I'm laughing at the fact you're so bent out of shape over absolutely nothing.

EDIT: Four pages of posts do not a defense make, by the way.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Crystal Shards

[volkethereaper]

You are right about my insulting you. It was out of line, and I apoligize. I find it increasingly difficult to stay dispassionate. There's just something about people who argue and attack others beliefs without trying to step out of their little box, or at least tries to show some respect to the persons ideas, that irks me. It has always bothered me, and probably always will.

EDIT: No, but what was said in them does. A crappy defense perhaps, but defense.

EDIT: Should have said "There's something about people that seem to me who argue and attack..."

Edited August 19, 2010 by volkethereaper

[Crystal Shards]

You are right about my insulting you. It was out of line, and I apoligize. I find it increasingly difficult to stay dispassionate. There's just something about people who argue and attack others beliefs without trying to step out of their little box, or at least tries to show some respect to the persons ideas, that irks me. It has always bothered me, and probably always will.

And what little box am I staying in? I am perfectly open to changing my mind if eclipse were to actually be able to defend her argument with any amount of coherence and intelligence, and I'm pretty sure I've stated that before this post. Like I just edited into my last post, four pages of posts do not a defense make. The fact of the matter is her ideas have not held up to scrutiny, and the very fact she came in here expecting to say her opinion without people asking questions (not even necessarily disagreeing) and then saying, "Well it's my opinion and you guys are mean for pointing out flaws in it," is insulting to my intelligence and love for an honest debate.

EDIT: A crappy defense is less useful than no defense at all. Instead of actually taking the time to articulate herself in a reasonable manner, and instead of actually thinking about the points Esau made, she opened herself up further to scrutiny with posts that don't make sense and laughing at logic and reasoning. This doesn't just serve to discredit her argument, but also to discredit her. She's actually set herself further back than she would be if she had not posted at all.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Crystal Shards

[volkethereaper]

And what little box am I staying in?

You're idea box. It is not wrong to disagree, but as I have said before, it is wrong to insult. I assume in High-School you learned how to argue in an essay? Defending and attacking a certain idea, cause, person, etc. is fine, but showing them respect is valuable to your ethos. Calling someone's ideas stupid is not the right way to go. You and Esau seem to have the arguements against her down, but the disrespectful terminology (i.e. stupid) is wrong. This is often a symptom of someone's inabillity to step in another person's shoes (however briefly). If that is not the case with you then I am sorry. As to the debate, although Serious Discussion has been a good place to hold debates, that is not necessarily what it is meant for. Many people come here to learn about others without knowing that fierce debate is imminent if they state an opinion that is disagreed with. I first came here for that reason, myself, and it sounds like eclipse did, too. To be honest, I think a "Serious Debate" forum would be a good addition to this site. Discussions could start here and when they grow heated, move to the debate area, allowing casual players to just hang out and also satisfy the firey combatants such as yourself.

EDIT: At your EDIT-You are right about the "crappy defense" thing being worse than no defense, but who judges what is reasonable? Let me make this clear first: I do not agree with her. Nevertheless, just because something seems a certain way in your eyes does not make it true, nor does it make it false. So, really, I'm arguing that there is no point to arguing. How utterly silly of me.

Edited August 19, 2010 by volkethereaper