FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[Tangerine]

Now, were we to unanimously adopt a Gross system where opportunity costs are ignored for unit slots, what would the implications be? Using a unit still isn't "free," since experience remains limited and needs to be distributed properly. In that way, we still may end up with units who contribute negatively to the team's utility if used, but it's far less extreme than what we have now.

This is pretty much why I suggest not bothering to worry about the EXP rank (apart from keeping Marcus tame) a whole lot until mid-late mid game. The burden of getting a good rating in chapters is hard enough with your regular team. It's easier to raise your main team up early on and use them to help other characters bolster the EXP rank later. There are plenty of low level units that can grab kills effectively at their base level, like Heath, Rath and Nino. This is what I did in both of my last two S rank playthroughs and it made things *much* easier. I didn't complete the games where I was trying to get the EXP rank up throughout the entire game, it was boring and needlessly frustrating because it's so much easier to get unlucky with bad units early on.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Moribalken

[_____]

So, yeah, BB.

Bartre > Rath and possibly Rebecca. No one had any objections to that.

[Geriba]

So, yeah, BB.

Bartre > Rath and possibly Rebecca. No one had any objections to that.

Bartre's a liability early-game, and mediocre mid-game. Dart is mediocre mid-game. I'd give the win to Dart, even with the Gross system being used.

[_____]

Bartre's a liability early-game, and mediocre mid-game. Dart is mediocre mid-game. I'd give the win to Dart, even with the Gross system being used.

Bartre's worst period is his forced period where he can not be a detriment. Bartre's around longer, he's better in the midgame, and he doesn't cost us 50,000 gold just to use.

[Florete]

Bartre's a liability early-game, and mediocre mid-game. Dart is mediocre mid-game. I'd give the win to Dart, even with the Gross system being used.

Bartre's worst period is his forced period where he can not be a detriment. Bartre's around longer, he's better in the midgame, and he doesn't cost us 50,000 gold just to use.

To promote. Dart costs nothing to give us 1200 experience aside from weapon costs, and this is something you're likely to need to do. It's really just nitpicking (I don't care about Bartre vs. Dart) but this assumption needs to be corrected.

And yeah, Bartre can't really be considered a liability/negative early on.

[_____]

To promote. Dart costs nothing to give us 1200 experience aside from weapon costs, and this is something you're likely to need to do. It's really just nitpicking (I don't care about Bartre vs. Dart) but this assumption needs to be corrected.

If we're just going to use them for the EXP rank, Bartre starts 6 levels lower and quite a few chapters earlier. I know that's not what you were getting at, but I'm just saying.

[Dat Nick]

I don't know. Bartre can dodge/bl dodge doubles on Efficency. Here he might not.

[Tangerine]

Bartre gets doubled by some Brigands, Pirates, Mercs and Myrmidons at base speed. He'd get doubled by the Pegs if they didn't weigh themselves down so much too.

[Geriba]

This post comes from the user Mercury_Wing over at GameFAQs. It summarizes my views on why Dart > Bartre should remain as-is:

I'd call Bartre low-tier, for having an early game that is so bad that having him is worse than having an empty slot. It's fairly close to being prohibitive.

He has the unique hazard of having a speed base of 3. With his luck base of 4, that's just 10 base evasion. To give you an idea, even with advantageous terrain AND WTA, the enemy will have a slightly over 50% chance to hit Bartre.

That wouldn't be a problem if Bartre's base defense were good. It isn't. With a defense base of 4 and enemies' attack (strength + weapon) usually hovering at 11-14, Bartre's taking 6-11 damage (allowing for possible WTA's and WTD's) most times he engages in direct combat. Even his 29 HP won't last long. He does have the indirect combat option with Hand Axe, but there are accuracy issues involved with that.

The bigger problem is the units that can double Bartre at 3 speed. I really don't care about the brigands, you can keep Bartre away from them and only a few have 7 speed. I also won't worry about mercenaries and myrmidons, as you won't be putting any axe user other than Hector (maybe) in their way. However, some Peg knights (a major source of Bartre's early EXP) can double him. Even worse, all Nomads can, as well. And since chapter 13x your first nomad encounter is fog-of-war, using Bartre at all in that chapter becomes risky. These risks stick with Bartre until his speed hits 5.

With 40% growth for speed, Bartre is projected to hit 5 speed at level 6 or 7. (At level 6, Bartre's speed is 4.6, which is technically rounded up, but still very suspect. Level 7 can be considered reliable.) That means Bartre is at risk for 4-5 levels, and because of his at-risk status, those levels will likely come slower than they do for most other units. Once he gets past that point, I'd say (without going into detail) that he's decent, but not extraordinary. But his early game is so bad that trying to use him is a headache matched only by the headache Bartre himself gets when someone uses a big word.

[Tangerine]

What do you think about Karel, Jaffar? I posted on GameFAQs about it.

[Florete]

This post comes from the user Mercury_Wing over at GameFAQs. It summarizes my views on why Dart > Bartre should remain as-is:

I'd call Bartre low-tier, for having an early game that is so bad that having him is worse than having an empty slot. It's fairly close to being prohibitive.

He has the unique hazard of having a speed base of 3. With his luck base of 4, that's just 10 base evasion. To give you an idea, even with advantageous terrain AND WTA, the enemy will have a slightly over 50% chance to hit Bartre.

That wouldn't be a problem if Bartre's base defense were good. It isn't. With a defense base of 4 and enemies' attack (strength + weapon) usually hovering at 11-14, Bartre's taking 6-11 damage (allowing for possible WTA's and WTD's) most times he engages in direct combat. Even his 29 HP won't last long. He does have the indirect combat option with Hand Axe, but there are accuracy issues involved with that.

The bigger problem is the units that can double Bartre at 3 speed. I really don't care about the brigands, you can keep Bartre away from them and only a few have 7 speed. I also won't worry about mercenaries and myrmidons, as you won't be putting any axe user other than Hector (maybe) in their way. However, some Peg knights (a major source of Bartre's early EXP) can double him. Even worse, all Nomads can, as well. And since chapter 13x your first nomad encounter is fog-of-war, using Bartre at all in that chapter becomes risky. These risks stick with Bartre until his speed hits 5.

With 40% growth for speed, Bartre is projected to hit 5 speed at level 6 or 7. (At level 6, Bartre's speed is 4.6, which is technically rounded up, but still very suspect. Level 7 can be considered reliable.) That means Bartre is at risk for 4-5 levels, and because of his at-risk status, those levels will likely come slower than they do for most other units. Once he gets past that point, I'd say (without going into detail) that he's decent, but not extraordinary. But his early game is so bad that trying to use him is a headache matched only by the headache Bartre himself gets when someone uses a big word.

That only explains why he's not good early, not why he's actually negative. Would you honestly say that if Bartre weren't around, you would go faster as a result or gain more experience?

Most of those problems can be avoided anyway. For example, he has WTA on Peg Knights, so he can either kill them before they attack (I think he can OHKO some of them) or hit them with a Hand Axe and have fairly reliable accuracy. He never even has to encounter Nomads if the player is smart enough, since they only appear in the bottom right (don't send him there) and a few at the middle top area, but it should be easy enough to keep him protected there anyway.

[Tangerine]

That only explains why he's not good early, not why he's actually negative. Would you honestly say that if Bartre weren't around, you would go faster as a result or gain more experience?

The question is whether he's worth spending the experience on or not. It's babying Bartre vs having a higher average level for your main team. You can make up for the experience rank pretty easily later, as long as you don't abuse Marcus.

Most of those problems can be avoided anyway. For example, he has WTA on Peg Knights, so he can either kill them before they attack (I think he can OHKO some of them) or hit them with a Hand Axe and have fairly reliable accuracy. He never even has to encounter Nomads if the player is smart enough, since they only appear in the bottom right (don't send him there) and a few at the middle top area, but it should be easy enough to keep him protected there anyway.

The problem is it severely limits what he can do. If you have to avoid all of these things that kill him easily, he's stuck to doing only a couple tasks. Besides, if we're using the gross system, whether he's free or not doesn't matter. If he sucks more than everyone else, he sucks more than everyone else and loses huge points for it. Sucking in the hardest part of the game is not a good thing.

[Florete]

The question is whether he's worth spending the experience on or not. It's babying Bartre vs having a higher average level for your main team. You can make up for the experience rank pretty easily later, as long as you don't abuse Marcus.

I'm pretty sure you need all the experience you can possibly get. I remember Mekkah once saying that you needed to get every tier 1 unit to something like level 15 and then some, and my own per chapter calculations show that you need to gain ~1513 experience per map on average if you exclude 19xx and 32x. That's slightly more than 15 full level ups per map.

Also, dondon's ranked HHM log had him actually rotating characters just for more experience. I think you're underestimating just how demanding the experience rank really is (And it's another reason I dislike ranked lists. Like Mekkah said, it feels more like a planned way to do things rather than playing how you feel).

The problem is it severely limits what he can do. If you have to avoid all of these things that kill him easily, he's stuck to doing only a couple tasks. Besides, if we're using the gross system, whether he's free or not doesn't matter. If he sucks more than everyone else, he sucks more than everyone else and loses huge points for it. Sucking in the hardest part of the game is not a good thing.

What's this "gross" system again? I get tired reading Economics lessons.

In any case, you didn't answer my question. Can you honestly say that if he didn't exist, you'd go faster or gain more experience (in terms of the rank, of course) as a result? Seriously, even if he stays back most of the time and only kills one or two enemies per map because someone else missed or there weren't enough others or something, that's positive. Staying away from his problems is as simple as holding him back, and this is something you just have to do in HHM ranked.

[dondon151]

Brigands in chapter 13x have 6 spd before possibly being weighed down by any weapons they have. Accounting for the slim possibility they might have 7 spd, Bartre also may have proc'd spd in one of his level ups (he likely gained about half of a level in 12 and one to one and a half levels in 13; if he hasn't gained a total of 2 levels by the end of 13, then he'll level up very early in 13x), so he has a 64% chance of at least 4 spd. Therefore, he probably isn't doubled by brigands for all intents and purposes.

Bartre isn't also doubled by PKs; at least, not the Iron Lance ones. Although I don't have earlygame stats (only after chapter 17), I can prove this anyway. Generic PKs have 5 con and are weighed down by -3 AS from Iron Lance. They will need 10 spd to double Bartre. The 7/0 PKs in chapter 18 don't even reach 10 spd, so it follows that earlier PKs don't reach 10 spd. The Slim Lance ones do double Bartre, but they do only effectively (str-1)*2 damage, since Bartre's 4 base def plus WTD is a total of 5 def against Slim Lance's 4 MT. So PKs in general aren't a problem.

That leaves mercs, myrms, and nomads, and you wouldn't send Dorcas to fight any of the first 2.

And really, Bartre's negative effect on everyone else's EXP is negligible. If Bartre gains 6 levels and you're using 6 other characters on the team, that's only a penalty of 1 level to everyone else after about 5 chapters, which isn't very significant.

Edited October 16, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

I'm far more concerned about Bartre's level slowing down and causing him to get doubled by more things than on Efficency due to rotation and everything than I am about "teh ee x pee"

Edited October 16, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Tangerine]

I'm pretty sure you need all the experience you can possibly get. I remember Mekkah once saying that you needed to get every tier 1 unit to something like level 15 and then some, and my own per chapter calculations show that you need to gain ~1513 experience per map on average if you exclude 19xx and 32x. That's slightly more than 15 full level ups per map.

Also, dondon's ranked HHM log had him actually rotating characters just for more experience. I think you're underestimating just how demanding the experience rank really is (And it's another reason I dislike ranked lists. Like Mekkah said, it feels more like a planned way to do things rather than playing how you feel).

You do need all the experience you can get. When you get that experience isn't set in stone, however. The EXP and Tactics ranks work against eachother in the first place. I did as much arena abuse as I could while still keeping under the max turn count. Staff users and Bishops/Valkyries are invaluable as well, considering they're the only two classes that can get to 20/20 reasonably. High level staffs like Warp are nice too. You should save your Hammernes for that.

Obviously I still needed to rotate, but I avoided doing it as much as I could early in the game.

What's this "gross" system again? I get tired reading Economics lessons.

It's essentially what you're doing with your efficiency tier list.

In any case, you didn't answer my question. Can you honestly say that if he didn't exist, you'd go faster or gain more experience (in terms of the rank, of course) as a result? Seriously, even if he stays back most of the time and only kills one or two enemies per map because someone else missed or there weren't enough others or something, that's positive. Staying away from his problems is as simple as holding him back, and this is something you just have to do in HHM ranked.

Not having Bartre is worse than having Bartre in that sense. Keeping him back and babying him slows your team down, but it's the only way for him to get levels reasonably quickly. That's the price you have to pay.

[Dat Nick]

It's essentially what you're doing with your efficiency tier list.

I maintain that list and I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Tangerine]

I maintain that list and I have no idea what you're talking about.

Doesn't your list ignore opportunity cost and instead assume a unit is only rated on how they perform?

[dondon151]

You do need all the experience you can get. When you get that experience isn't set in stone, however. The EXP and Tactics ranks work against eachother in the first place. I did as much arena abuse as I could while still keeping under the max turn count. Staff users and Bishops/Valkyries are invaluable as well, considering they're the only two classes that can get to 20/20 reasonably. High level staffs like Warp are nice too. You should save your Hammernes for that.

Staff users won't get to 20/20. The EXP gain rate of staff users is consistently overrated in every game except for FEDS, so staff users in a general efficiency run promote later than combat units. Under these circumstances, they will promote at about the same time. Endgame level with ranks is about 20/7. Even factoring in the EXP bonus for valks and female bishops, their average endgame level will be 20/12 at best.

Obviously I still needed to rotate, but I avoided doing it as much as I could early in the game.

Using lower leveled characters later in the game is more difficult than using them earlier in the game.

Not having Bartre is worse than having Bartre in that sense. Keeping him back and babying him slows your team down, but it's the only way for him to get levels reasonably quickly. That's the price you have to pay.

It doesn't. You're not listening to what I say. Bartre doesn't have to slow the team down if the rest of the team can just move ahead of him. There is no penalty to using Bartre when his unit slot comes with no cost. Occasionally you're going to find scenarios where Bartre is the only character who can attack an enemy, and by doing so he doesn't put himself in (significant) danger for enemy phase. If he does put himself in danger, then he doesn't do anything, and it's as if he's not there.

Doesn't your list ignore opportunity cost and instead assume a unit is only rated on how they perform?

BB doesn't subscribe to that system.

Edited October 16, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

BB doesn't subscribe to that system.

I'm reasonable about it. You didn't see me advocating Wil>Wallace at first. You can't even ignore Wallace's opportunity cost even if Geitz isn't in play because the Lloyd version of Four Fanged Offense really sucks compared to the Linus version.

[dondon151]

You can't even ignore Wallace's opportunity cost even if Geitz isn't in play because the Lloyd version of Four Fanged Offense really sucks compared to the Linus version.

But in FE6 we don't consider either of the route splits to be penalties in themselves, so I don't see why a different version of one map in FE7 follows a different standard.

[Dat Nick]

20 AS Nomads are much easier to deal with when you have a high level Shin to gun them down.

Furthermore, nothing in either Sacae chapter sucks as badly as a boss in FoW that can come out of nowhere and instablick people.

[dondon151]

Furthermore, nothing in either Sacae chapter sucks as badly as a boss in FoW that can come out of nowhere and instablick people.

Oh, really?

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap20A.htm - fog of war, 2 Bolting sages in the middle, 2 ballistae, and I'm pretty sure those 2 sages on the wall also have Bolting (or worse, some sort of staff). Also, doors and narrow corridors.

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap20Ax.htm - where's the real gate ?_?

You really think a mobile Lloyd is worse than these maps put together?

[Dat Nick]

fog of war, 2 Bolting sages in the middle, 2 ballistae, and I'm pretty sure those 2 sages on the wall also have Bolting (or worse, some sort of staff). Also, doors and narrow corridors.

They won't come out of nowhere and instakill a unit, especially since their movement is limited.

http://www.fireemble...fe6/cap20Ax.htm - where's the real gate ?_?

what's that got to do with anything

Then again, I have a "clear all maps of all enemies" complex, but still all this would do is waste time which is much less harsh than the death of a unit

[grandjackal]

Oh, really?

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap20A.htm - fog of war, 2 Bolting sages in the middle, 2 ballistae, and I'm pretty sure those 2 sages on the wall also have Bolting (or worse, some sort of staff). Also, doors and narrow corridors.

Someone seems to be missing that Niime is forced, and with her huge magic base, is very easy to warp someone to the throne, or to take care of the bolting sages. You could say it's a problem using hte staff, but I honestly can't think of a better time to use it.

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap20Ax.htm - where's the real gate ?_?

I'm pretty sure it involves the name of the boss. If the boss has the right name, it's the right gate. I just...forget which name that happens to be x.x

You really think a mobile Lloyd is worse than these maps put together?

I find Sigurney to be a far more annoying boss than Kel (because light brand at ranged sucks in FE6, only people capable of doubling her 15 AS are probably Lance and Rutger), and Sacae Roartz is just simple to deal with. Only REAL problem with Sacae is Monke's chapter, that fucker with the 20 AS and the brave weapons and his ring of ambush tent reinforcements.

People really do overrate Sacae. I would find just a swordmaster boss rushing up to you and ending your shit as much harder. If Kel moved and the Light Brand didn't suck? Basically would be the only time I would say otherwise.