FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[dondon151]

I'm merely noting the logical inconsistency in not also giving Priscilla credit for Raven's recruitment (Raven is at the top of the list on this tier list, as far as combat units are concerned). If indeed Matthew's contribution toward Funds is so substantial, Priscilla's contribution to combat in the form of recruiting Raven must also be counted and be fairly substantial. Granted, Priscilla's contribution is Raven - unit Raven might have replaced (on my tier list this is not substantial, but on the one posted here this is fairly huge; there are no other combat units in Raven's tier), but in effect the gain is the same.

No it's not. You said yourself that attributing Raven's performance to Priscilla is "Priscilla + Raven" while attributing the Silver Card to Matthew is not in the form of "Matthew + something else." There is a very clear difference here.

[CATS]

That's unfortunate.

I lean towards Oswin on that match-up, though. Both are close enough to invincible, or Oswin might actually have better durability since he has considerably higher Def even in the early game. On offense Marcus one-rounds while Oswin can only weaken, but I'd argue that Oswin weakening enemies so that low-level units can easily get the kill for high Exp gain > Marcus one-rounding for tiny amounts of Exp, especially with how lol the FE7 Combat rank is.

Edited February 8, 2010 by CATS

[CATS]

No it's not. You said yourself that attributing Raven's performance to Priscilla is "Priscilla + Raven" while attributing the Silver Card to Matthew is not in the form of "Matthew + something else." There is a very clear difference here.

How is it not in the form of Matthew + something else? It is Matthew + Silver Card, no?

[dondon151]

The Silver Card is not a tierable character.

[CATS]

Why does that matter? Both are clearly defined objects which significantly benefit your ranks; both are only obtainable by one individual unit. I don't see how the fact that Raven is a character instead of an item makes the argument fundamentally different or invalid.

[Inui]

There's a loooot more to it than that, WJC. I'll get to it eventually. Oswin's durability and Experience wins aren't that impressive compared to Marcus's Tactics wins and overall performance beating Oswin's.

I don't think Matthew should automatically be top tier for stealing the Silver Card since he's horrible starting in the midgame and outclassed by Legault.

[Crimson_Edge]

No it's not. You said yourself that attributing Raven's performance to Priscilla is "Priscilla + Raven" while attributing the Silver Card to Matthew is not in the form of "Matthew + something else." There is a very clear difference here.

In effect, there's no difference at all. It's Matthew + Silver Card vs. Priscilla + Raven; both the Silver Card and Raven are not amendments of Matthew and Priscilla respectively. They are independent of the units used to acquire them. In order to use the Silver Card, one needn't use Matthew after it has already been obtained. Similarly, in order to use Raven, one needn't use Priscilla after he has already been obtained. In every way that matters, the two situation are analogous. Giving Matthew such enormous credit for the Silver Card while not giving Priscilla enormous credit for recruiting Raven is profoundly counterintuiive; of course, the idea of giving a unit such credit for any individual action strikes me as ridiculous in the first place, as outlined above.

Not taking a deployment slot is an advantage, but you are overblowing it. Oswin's team has 10 and Hector's team has 11, I see. Well, what if 10 is all that's needed? If that one last deployment slot isn't being put to much use in the first place, Hector not taking a slot is not worth much in the end. It's good, but not even close to auto-best material.

Unfortunately for this argument, this is a tier list topic, and it is unit vs. unit. It doesn't matter if Hector is adding more on to "all that's needed" if he's still adding more than other units on the list. I could easily upend this by saying that Oswin is not adding much to the team because the team already has "all that's needed." The difference between using Oswin and anyone else (someone such as Erk for example) is miniscule, almost negligible. "It's not worth much in the end" as you say. Hector's providing an entirely additional unit on the field easily > that.

Another unit means it's not only easier to finish enemies faster, adding substantially to Tactics, but it's also easier to wall more enemies in or to position your units in such a way as to protect weaker units (who now have more flexibility of movement because there are more units available to cover them). Tell me what Oswin provides over Erk that is substantially better than Hector's provision of an entirely additional unit. Or, rather, give me an example of a case where 10 units are sufficent enough that the ability to provide an 11th unit is not an enormous advantage over the ability to provide . . . an almost negligible unit difference.

Plus, Hector has other issues keeping him down. Very late promotion, bad mobility, doesn't double for a while, etc.

Yet the current tier list places Oswin above him. "Very late promotion"? Yes, coupled with an absolutely free promotion that hinders the promotion of no other unit in the game. Consider, again, Hector vs. Oswin, as I already started on this comparison; Oswin's promotion troubles are actually greater than Hector's. Why? Because Hector only promotes late, his promotion only affects himself. Yet Oswins trouble is that Lowen, Kent, and Sain all want the Knight Crests that Oswin uses to promote with, and Oswin using one forces one of the other three either to use an Earth Seal and promote late or not promote at all and thereby go unused (and its easily arguable that promoting any of the three Cavaliers yields a significantly better mid/lategame unit than Oswin is; they all have mobility and offensive advantages over him, though I will admit his durability is excellent). Note also that Lucius, Canas, Erk, Serra, and Priscilla are viable or good units in their own right and also may want to use the Earth Seal if most or all of them are in play. Kent and Sain share a support, so if one is in play its extremely likely that the other is, in which case using Oswin means, directly, both promoting one of the two late and not using Lowen (or using the Earth Seal). Extreme amounts of fail. Hector never shoves this difficulty down your throat.

Bad mobility? If Hector's is bad, Oswin's is worse. I could say the same for "doesn't double for a while."

And you neglected to mention Hector's advantages: having the second-fastest support in the game and providing support bonuses earlier than anyone else on your team is a massive boon, Hector's defenses are enormous in a game where durability supersedes all other considerations, and Hector's use is a requirement toward being able to recruit and use Geitz (this is far more direct than Priscilla recruiting Raven, for example, because Hector must actually see combat in order for Geitz's recruitment to occur). No, I certainly think Hector deserves Top of Top; being level-capped for a while may send him below Ninian or something, but he certainly deserves a full tier above the likes of Erk and Oswin who lack advantages massive enough over him to beat his lack of unit slot consumption.

Anyway, I do agree that the Silver Card alone is not enough to make him the best, but there are plenty of other things that propel him that high. Basically, even without the Silver Card, he'd still probably be Top tier, even if not the best.

Such as? Please convincingly demonstrate that without this whole Silver Card argument Matthew manages to defeat units such as Lowen or Kent on the tier list.

Matthew also has the advantage of increased experience gain, so he's already actually helped the Experience rank more than most units and capping out is just the result. It's more like his utility stops at this point; he doesn't go negative.

There are two distinct possibilities here:

1.) Matthew is used extensively in LHM and actually manages to be decent at combat during the earlygame, in which case he caps level extremely fast and his EXP boost is cancelled out due to his being on a higher level than the rest of your team (a level 11 Matthew is not going to gain more experience than a regular member of your team such as Eliwood).

or

2.) Matthew is not used extensively in LHM and fails horribly at combat during the earlygame. In exchange, he is indeed providing a boost in EXP to your HHM EXP Rank as compared to, say, Eliwood, but I would argue that this scenario is actually worse for him, because its extremely difficult for a low-level Matthew to be any good during earlygame HHM, and therefore getting kills at all is a chore. Plus, any EXP dumped into Matthew will be wasted eventually, once he caps level and starts to suck at combat; Id much rather use Nino if additional EXP is my goal, or perhaps even lategame Karla in VoD.

I see no helping of Experience Rank; I see merely the trading of one detriment for another.

Not being deployed does not make one negative. You cannot penalize him for this.

Indeed I can. This is a tier list, please do not forget. I can penalize Matthew for being unable to do something that Lowen can do the same as I can penalize Lowen for being unable to do something that Matthew can do. If Matthew cannot be deployed in a certain chapter because it is undesirable to deploy him, but Lowen can, this is obviously a disadvantage for Matthew. It doesnt matter if you coat the terminology to be advantage for Lowen or disadvantage for Matthew, the fact of the matter is, it affects the tier list the same way regardless.

Lancereavers say "Hi." Even before, sometimes having her fight Cavaliers and Knights with her Mani Katti knowing she might have to be healed can be advantageous because of how awesome the Mani Katti is, and it's even free.

Im not sure how this alleviates the problem of Lyns having 2 base Def and having terrible durability against any enemy that does not wield an Axe. Its not that she might have to be healedyes, she will have to be healed. And with only two healers, both of whom you might not even be using, having to be healed is not a good thing. Lots of units may need to be healed. I cant focus my healers undivided attention on Lyn just because Mani Katti is free, and awesome.

As for Lancereavers, those dont appear until later in the game, and by then Lyns offensive advantages over others have all but dissipated, while her defense continues to be atrocious, possibly even gameworst. Lucius is the only character in the game with lower base defensive parameters, and Lucius has a defensive affinity and 1-2 Range to more than make up the gap. Because Lyn caps level and her affinity sucks, her Avoid also wont be good like the Avoid of other frail units, so the situation isnt going to change for her. There is almost no unit as terrible as Lyn is defensively. This means that Lyn is the worst unit in the game in an attribute that is the most essential to the game. Instant fail. In order for Lyn to be even moderately useable or decent, she would now have to also add something tangible and beneficial to my team, such as amazing mobility or healing.

Unfortunately for Lyn, she provides nothing else except a little bit of good earlygame offense, and if Lyns Mode is not played even that goes down the drain (since she cant double enemies anymore). Past the earlygame, her offense is decidedly unimpressive due to mediocre Str. On top of this, she shafts one of the best units in the game, Eliwood, in order to be used. Assuming Eliwood is on the team (and hes High Tier on both my list and on yours), the logical player, faced with the decision of using Lyn or Heath, will undoubtedly choose Heath; both suck, but Lyns presence on the team most likely forces Eliwood to suck as well, whereas Heaths presence on the team shafts no one else. The choice is fairly clear.

Yes, even Karla > Lyn. Karla at least can be used for filler EXP in VoD. Lyn serves no purpose at all except sucking.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Crimson_Edge

[Colonel M]

The tier list makes me "laugh out loud".

Also, Karla requires a dumbshit named Bartre to join a team, waste a Hero Seal, etc. Lyn has the Mani Katti which helps nuke a Cav and she still contributes to the CEXP rank, even if she's stopped at Level 20. She may not be the most durable, but Lyn is contributing FAR MORE to each rank than Karla's ass EVER will.

[Florete]

Or, rather, give me an example of a case where 10 units are sufficent enough that the ability to provide an 11th unit is not an enormous advantage over the ability to provide . . . an almost negligible unit difference.

Why don't you give me a situation where 11 units is significantly better than 10? This is not FE6 where maps are all huge, this is FE7 where almost any trained unit can be great. The 11th unit will most likely not have a significant enough impact on the team, especially a slow, immobile unit like Hector. It would have to be someone like Marcus, but we don't have 10 Marcus's.

It may make a difference in the first few, more difficult chapters, but everyone is forced there anyway.

Yet the current tier list places Oswin above him. "Very late promotion"? Yes, coupled with an absolutely free promotion that hinders the promotion of no other unit in the game. Consider, again, Hector vs. Oswin, as I already started on this comparison; Oswin's promotion troubles are actually greater than Hector's. Why? Because Hector only promotes late, his promotion only affects himself. Yet Oswin’s trouble is that Lowen, Kent, and Sain all want the Knight Crests that Oswin uses to promote with, and Oswin using one forces one of the other three either to use an Earth Seal and promote late or not promote at all and thereby go unused (and it’s easily arguable that promoting any of the three Cavaliers yields a significantly better mid/lategame unit than Oswin is; they all have mobility and offensive advantages over him, though I will admit his durability is excellent). Note also that Lucius, Canas, Erk, Serra, and Priscilla are viable or good units in their own right and also may want to use the Earth Seal if most or all of them are in play. Kent and Sain share a support, so if one is in play it’s extremely likely that the other is, in which case using Oswin means, directly, both promoting one of the two late and not using Lowen (or using the Earth Seal). Extreme amounts of fail. Hector never shoves this difficulty down your throat.

Bad mobility? If Hector's is bad, Oswin's is worse. I could say the same for "doesn't double for a while."

This is pretty much just an argument for Hector > Oswin, which I can agree with. Although it should be noted that Oswin has a slight mobility advantage in that he can be placed closer to the enemies at the start.

Such as? Please convincingly demonstrate that without this whole Silver Card argument Matthew manages to defeat units such as Lowen or Kent on the tier list.

From Mekkah in an older tier topic:

I would like to paraphrase Reikken that Silver Card is not what makes Matthew auto-win. Also involved are:

- His A Guy support, which the dude needs really badly, and largely compensates for the fact that Matthew fights less than others.

- His doubled EXP gain, meaning he needs less EXP to grow the same amount of levels.

- His massive availability - most of anyone counting only Hector Mode, tied with Hector (Dorcas wins if you count all Lyn Mode chapters).

- His great performance against the common Brigands in Ch12, Ch13 and Ch13x.

- Him being one of your two only units in Ch11.

- The stuff he steals/picks you before Legault arrives, which he gets full credit for. From the top of my head, this includes Silver Axe, Mend, Guiding Ring, Hero Crest, Knight Crest, Unlock Staff, some Pure Waters and a Brave Bow. That's right, thanks to him, half your cast is able to promote in a reasonable timeframe. And even after Legault arrives, he still technically gets about half the credit for it. Perhaps even more than that if you decide to bring Legault to the fray for his EXP gain. Think of Brave Axe, 10000G, Hero Crest (Oleg)...

- Rapes Fog of War in 13x and 19 as well as other later chapters such as 21, 23 and 24 (Lloyd), especially with a Torch use.

The A Guy support is the only one that might not mean as much anymore.

There are two distinct possibilities here:

1.) Matthew is used extensively in LHM and actually manages to be decent at combat during the earlygame, in which case he caps level extremely fast and his “EXP boost” is cancelled out due to his being on a higher level than the rest of your team (a level 11 Matthew is not going to gain more experience than a regular member of your team such as Eliwood).

or

2.) Matthew is not used extensively in LHM and fails horribly at combat during the earlygame. In exchange, he is indeed providing a boost in EXP to your HHM EXP Rank as compared to, say, Eliwood, but I would argue that this scenario is actually worse for him, because it’s extremely difficult for a low-level Matthew to be any good during earlygame HHM, and therefore getting kills at all is a chore. Plus, any EXP dumped into Matthew will be wasted eventually, once he caps level and starts to suck at combat; I’d much rather use Nino if additional EXP is my goal, or perhaps even lategame Karla in VoD.

I see no helping of Experience Rank; I see merely the trading of one detriment for another.

There is a middle ground here. He can come in at a more average level like 7-8, still be decent in combat, and also give a lot of experience for his battles. Or, he can be used very sparingly in combat and saved until later to provide bigger boosts to Experience than someone like Nino.

Indeed I can. This is a tier list, please do not forget. I can penalize Matthew for being unable to do something that Lowen can do the same as I can penalize Lowen for being unable to do something that Matthew can do. If Matthew cannot be deployed in a certain chapter because it is “undesirable” to deploy him, but Lowen can, this is obviously a disadvantage for Matthew. It doesn’t matter if you coat the terminology to be “advantage for Lowen” or “disadvantage for Matthew,” the fact of the matter is, it affects the tier list the same way regardless.

Terminology is important. Matthew is neutral when not deployed, not negative, as penalizing him would suggest, because he can't hurt progress without being deployed. There is a difference here.

I’m not sure how this alleviates the problem of Lyn’s having 2 base Def and having terrible durability against any enemy that does not wield an Axe. It’s not that she “might have to be healed”—yes, she will have to be healed. And with only two healers, both of whom you might not even be using, having to be healed is not a good thing. Lots of units may need to be healed. I can’t focus my healer’s undivided attention on Lyn just because “Mani Katti is free, and awesome.”

You might not be using both healers? Do you know how difficult 5 star Experience is? You need both healers in this.

And then yes, Lyn can dodge. I'll assume she comes out of LHM at level 10, so she has ~38, maybe 40 avoid. A random Javelin PK has 83 hit, so 68 displayed on Lyn, and after true hit gives Lyn ~19% chance to dodge. Not perfect, no, but it's there. Thing is, this guy also only 3HKOs lv 10 Lyn, and there are plenty of Forests which can bring his true hit down to ~46.5%, which means Lyn would be dodging about half the time. And this is just a bit less than the most accurate enemies will be against her. Most of them have Hit in the 80's and don't get WTA.

And don't try thinking I was just going easy on her. Shit like Soldiers and Knights generally have less Hit, or just plain weak weapons, and she'll grow faster than enemies as well.

And then on player phase, there's the chance she can crit and not even take a counter at all. Mani Katti is 20, Skl is 6, and 2 turn C Florina is 5, so 31, aka ~1/3 of every enemy she fights on player phase is dead. It's only higher when access to Killing Edges comes.

In order for Lyn to be even moderately useable or decent, she would now have to also add something tangible and beneficial to my team, such as amazing mobility or healing.

Wtf. The whole Geitz thing works for Hector, but not Lyn? Lyn needs to be leveled in order to get Linus's FFO as well, so using her until ~lv 15 can probably be considered neutral-at-worst utility, but by then she's built up some defenses and offenses of her own anyway. And then she also has a few forced maps of her own, which are so awesome for Hector but are conveniently ignored for Lyn.

On top of this, she shafts one of the best units in the game, Eliwood, in order to be used.

Bullshit. It's been proven before that Eliwood's performance doesn't really change if promoted a couple maps later, and Lyn can be promoted 2nd anyway.

Yes, even Karla > Lyn. Karla at least can be used for filler EXP in VoD. Lyn serves no purpose at all except sucking.

Wtf? Are you just trolling me? Your sandbagging of Lyn is beyond the pale at this point.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[CATS]

It's been proven before that Eliwood's performance doesn't really change if promoted a couple maps later, and Lyn can be promoted 2nd anyway.

You have to hold him back from combat between 26 and 28x in this situation, either because he's hit L20 and thus raping Exp if he fights, or will hit L20 if you have him fight much. Fail. Not to mention his promo gains are very good. +4 Hp, +2 Str (actually +3-4 because he also gets higher Mt weapons), +1 Spd, +1 Def, +3 Res, +2 move, gains 1-2 range and WTA over swords/neutral vs lances. I don't see how his performance during those chapters is the same regardless of whether he promotes or not.

[Florete]

You have to hold him back from combat between 26 and 28x in this situation, either because he's hit L20 and thus raping Exp if he fights, or will hit L20 if you have him fight much. Fail. Not to mention his promo gains are very good. +4 Hp, +2 Str (actually +3-4 because he also gets higher Mt weapons), +1 Spd, +1 Def, +3 Res, +2 move, gains 1-2 range and WTA over swords/neutral vs lances. I don't see how his performance during those chapters is the same regardless of whether he promotes or not.

I meant lv 1 Eliwood in 28x vs lv 2-3 Eliwood in 28x, not the enemies in between. I don't see what his raw promo gains have to do with anything.

[CATS]

His raw promo gains have to do with the fact that they add quite a bit to his stats and thus he would prefer to access them sooner.

Perhaps his performance from 28x on is not changed much, but I don't see how you can argue that he isn't significantly affected in general. He does indeed get badly shafted on 26, 27 and 28, so I would hardly claim that such an argument is "bullshit."

[dondon151]

Why does that matter? Both are clearly defined objects which significantly benefit your ranks; both are only obtainable by one individual unit. I don't see how the fact that Raven is a character instead of an item makes the argument fundamentally different or invalid.

Raven's performance is accounted for on the tier list by his respective position on the tier list. Where is the Silver Card's performance? If we didn't credit the Silver Card to Matthew, then the tier list would be like an unbalanced equation. I fail to understand how it's logically consistent that pilfered (prior to Chest Keys) and stolen items are fully attributed to thieves in every other FE tier list, yet the Silver Card isn't, just because it's "too much at once."

Additionally, the Silver Card has an easily defined value - by itself, it is equivalent to exactly the amount of gold you have, in addition to the added utility of making items easily convertible to cash without loss. Raven's value is not as easily defined - he is, after all, only a combat unit, meaning that opportunity cost will always reduce his profit by a significant amount (even if he is the best combat unit in the game). While we're on the subject of Raven, I think he can actually stand to drop. He doesn't contribute as much to the tactics rank as your mounted units. His contribution to the combat rank is totally negligible. His funds rank contribution is rather miniscule if existent at all, and his EXP rank contribution is something a majority of the characters have in the game anyway.

Edited February 8, 2010 by dondon151

[CATS]

Raven's performance is accounted for on the tier list by his respective position on the tier list. Where is the Silver Card's performance? If we didn't credit the Silver Card to Matthew, then the tier list would be like an unbalanced equation.

What's your point? It's a question of Priscilla's position, not Raven's. Of course Raven's own performance determines his own place on the list. So what? That's not the point in question at all. And I still do not see an explanation of the relevance of the fact that the Silver Card is an item.

I fail to understand how it's logically consistent that pilfered (prior to Chest Keys) and stolen items are fully attributed to thieves in every other FE tier list, yet the Silver Card isn't, just because it's "too much at once."

Of course it is inconsistent to not credit Matthew with the Silver Card. Hence, it also is inconsistent to not credit Priscilla with the ability to use Raven.

Additionally, the Silver Card has an easily defined value - by itself, it is equivalent to exactly the amount of gold you have, in addition to the added utility of making items easily convertible to cash without loss.

How is that any easier to define than Raven's value? How do you measure "the added utility of making items easily convertible to cash without loss," as opposed to Raven's "the added utility of his improvement in combat abilities over the next best alternative?" And secondly, why does it matter? Even if one were easier to clearly define, why does this mean that the other should not be accounted for in some way?

[dondon151]

What's your point? It's a question of Priscilla's position, not Raven's. Of course Raven's own performance determines his own place on the list. So what? That's not the point in question at all. And I still do not see an explanation of the relevance of the fact that the Silver Card is an item.

Of course it is inconsistent to not credit Matthew with the Silver Card. Hence, it also is inconsistent to not credit Priscilla with the ability to use Raven.

Tiering Priscilla as "Priscilla + Raven" and Raven would be double-counting Raven. Tiering Matthew as "Matthew + Silver Card" without tiering Silver Card would not be double-counting Silver Card.

Let's say that in an economy, there are 3 industries: the mining industry, the steel industry, and the auto industry. The mining industry sells its product to the steel industry, who sells its product to the auto industry, who sells its product to the consumers. In this economy, the GDP can be determined in various ways; one of them is to simply look at the number of sales the auto industry makes. Under this method, you don't count the sales the mining industry makes to the steel industry, or the sales the steel industry makes to the auto industry, because the value of those sales is already encompassed in the final product, i.e. the cars. If you did count each of them, it would be triple counting the contribution made by the mining industry and double counting the contribution made by the steel industry.

So Raven is like the steel industry, and Priscilla is like the auto industry. If we take Priscilla to be "Priscilla + Raven," that already accounts for that portion of our "GDP," and we can't tier Raven, otherwise it would inflate our "GDP" by exactly the amount of Raven's utility. If we only take Priscilla to be Priscilla and Raven to be Raven, then the "GDP" equation is balanced. Likewise, the Silver Card is like the steel industry, and Matthew is like the auto industry. But we don't tier the Silver Card by itself, so tiering Matthew as just "Matthew" would deflate our "GDP" by exactly the amount of Silver Card's utility. Therefore, Silver Card has to be attributed to Matthew for the "GDP" equation to be balanced.

[CATS]

I do not understand why Raven cannot be tiered if Priscilla is given credit for his performance. Raven can be tiered in the same position as he is currently, and Priscilla can be tiered starting one space above Raven and adjusting further if necessary for the additional utility that she provides, no? I do not understand how Raven is "double-counted" as his name still appears on the list only once, nor do I really understand why this creates a problem anyways. You're not giving Raven himself double credit for his contributions or something. His position doesn't change.

Maybe I'm just stupid and bad at comprehension, but can you explain your position a bit more? For example you're referring to GDP but what represents "GDP" in a tier list?

[-Cynthia-]

By this logic, we'd pretty much have to put any recruiter units above the unit they recruit, auto top-tier Lords and things like that.

Granted, I don't really agree with making Matthew automatically the best based on the Silver Card alone. He definitely isn't Lower Mid though.

[CATS]

Yes, pretty much. Dart would be at the minimum one space above Geitz, Lyn at the minimum one space above Rath, and etc. Maybe dondon will convince me otherwise, but from what I can see now, I do not think that the current state of affairs is consistent and accurate.

I don't necessarily agree with Matthew topping based on Silver Card either, but we can move on to that point after this question of logical inconsistency has been worked out.

[Inui]

*co-signs CATS' posts*

I intend to argue that Marcus is >= Oswin soon, since he's a good target as he's the highest in the tier their in.

[Crysta]

Why is Jaffar above Canas? I know he has a small window of suck but damn...

[-Cynthia-]

Why is Jaffar above Canas? I know he has a small window of suck but damn...

I question this as well. Canas at least helps the Exp rank, first by being an unpromoted unit, later by staves, and he actually isn't terrible in combat, especially post-promo. Jaffar is...lategame filler.

[Inui]

I used to think Canas sucked.

Now there's arguments that he might be the best caster, lol.

[Bryan]

I question this as well. Canas at least helps the Exp rank, first by being an unpromoted unit, later by staves, and he actually isn't terrible in combat, especially post-promo. Jaffar is...lategame filler.

I don't like Jaffar, but if you are useing Nino, (Which you are because of the EXP rank) you can support them for something. He sucks though.

[Colonel M]

I used to think Canas sucked.

Now there's arguments that he might be the best caster, lol.

Lucius, Erk, and Pent will not move.

[Inui]

Lucius, Erk, and Pent will not move.

What is this supposed to mean?

I wish Solid was here. =/