fe10 balancing ideas

[Narga_Rocks]

3-4 seems like a pretty random chapter to me. 3-P or 3-2 would be more appopriate (3-P since that's the start of the war, 3-2 since that's when Haar/Neph/Brom join).

Well, even without BEXP you still have 3 Spirit Dusts over the course of the game that are pretty much guaranteed to go on Tormod if he's played, since just about every other magic user doesn't need them.

I like Tormod though, so it's nice to see a version of him that's actually half-decent.

I'm not seeing the first spirit dust as something that is buyable. Even with only one forge per map and starting in 1-4 (as usual), they now cost more and Fortune is very much worth keeping (more useful than before and only 10 capacity). The 3-9 spirit dust is potentially gone forever, along with the speedwing, unless whatever chapter smash creates with Laguz for the DB happens to have the spirit dust and wing somewhere. In the original, unless you want to put Marcia at risk of death you only get one shot at the spirit dust behind the boss (when you kill him, provided you do so with a unit that has canto). The last involves forcing Mist x Boyd. Granted it is a 01 and she has staves, so it is quick and gives Boyd and her +5 mt, +2 def, +15 hit with the new supports, so it might be worth doing now, but it still requires a specific support to be created to help out Tormod.

As far as I'm concerned, in a HM playthrough (with the goal of efficient stomping) of the original game there are 0 spirit dusts. Also Calill benefits much from them too. Even Ilyana could use one. Calill could use 2. Tormod probably wants all 3. Actually, with Florete being magic damage even Mist may want to get her hands on them.

Anyway, the 23 AS base probably saves him. He is a bit underleveled for 3-4, but honestly if he can pull some good defensive stats and reach 3HKOd (or better yet 4HKOd) then he is at least 2RKOing most things in just a couple of levels (unless Smash ramps up enemy AS too much) and has some usable enemy phase. A Calill support may even let him ORKO a bunch of things. Maybe not though, not sure. Of course, the whole "half the enemies can crit you for 2x damage somewhat frequently" thing means being 3HKOd just lets you face one enemy sometimes. Actually, everything should have crit on him with crit being skill%, at least until he gets enough levels for that luck growth to get past their skill.

[Fei Mao]

Not sure if this was discussed yet but I think the Herons and the Priest-Bishop-Saint class needs a speed boost to their base speed or max speed cap, I mean they are getting doubled by almost every enemy in the game on normal mode, even worse on hard mode.

[Paperblade]

I'm pretty sure that if anything, a few enemies (at least in Part 3) are going to be a bit slower (with some compensation) so that AS layouts aren't 55% of enemies at 21-22, 5% being SMs, and the other 40% being loladinsdracoslolsageslolbishopsfuggingenerals.

[dondon151]

I think it would encourage better management of your units if herons were ORKO'd by everything on the map.

[Progenitus]

After thinking about it, I'm gonna go back and buff lck stats for most units, since stray crits are really gonna suck.

[Victor Fang]

why don't you make it so that all royals are already max level... sure you could use them but that's a whole map's worth of exp down the drain and they aint getting anything apart from bits of soldier in between thier teeth.

[Progenitus]

It will make them harder to balance.

[Narga_Rocks]

why don't you make it so that all royals are already max level... sure you could use them but that's a whole map's worth of exp down the drain and they aint getting anything apart from bits of soldier in between thier teeth.

I think smash is balancing them towards a tier list mentality. As far as the tier list is concerned, getting no exp and no wexp is irrelevant. Do they let us stomp the game harder/faster/easier than without them? If the answer is yes (which it would be), then they are stronger than any of the other units.

Basically, you have 10 slots. 10 units fighting for exp. 2 units are called loser and sucky. Loser and Sucky take exp from other units because you let them kill stuff. The other 8 units get x exp. Replace Loser and Sucky with Broken and Beyond Broken. Beyond Broken and Broken can go and kill the exact same number of enemies if you want to hold them back. The other 8 units get x exp regardless.

Of course, with Broken and Beyond Broken being so disgustingly good, they probably are allowed to kill more in order to increase efficiency. Thus reducing x. But the thing about these FE games is: Those 8 units probably never needed x exp in the first place to finish in a given number of turns. By letting BB and B stomp whatever they can, you are probably cutting down your total turn count despite other units maybe being one or two levels lower than they would be otherwise.

Even if that above paragraph isn't true and you need to hold them back to keep your other characters usable, they'd still not be balanced by not getting anything xpwise.

[Progenitus]

So I decided to change the bases again.

First of all, growths for all classes are 70 HP, 45 in the other 7. The reason is that this keeps the differences between the enemy classes static, and fire emblem mechanics don't change exponentially. For example, if myrm had a 10 spd base and fighters had a 5 spd base, and then myrms had a 50% spd growth and fighters was 40%, by 2nd tier the myrm would have 20 and the fighter would have 13. The difference went from 5 to 7. But to double you only need 4+ AS. This would generally make the fighter underpowered (or the myrm annoying to kill since loldoubling).

Similarly, a cav with 7 def and a fighter with 6 def. If both get doubled, the damage difference is 2. If the cav had a 40 def growth and fighter was 30, then at 2nd tier the cav would have 15 and the fighter 12. If both get doubled, the damage difference is now 6.

TO avoid all the hassle, I just made growths the same, and bases are what dictates the differences between enemies.

Anyway, here are the bases for 1st tiers. To find bases for 2nd tiers, add 20 levels of growths to their bases, and similarly for 3rd tiers.

May as well post what bases for 2nd and 3rd tiers are going to be for easier reference...

(I'm on my laptop and I have no idea how to print screen with it, so I can't just upload a pic of the table, so...)

name    HP	str	mag	skl	spd	lck	def	res
cav	22	7	2	6	6	7	6	2
armor	24	9	0	7	3	7	11	1
archer	18	7	3	10	9	6	3	3
myrm	18	6	3	9	10	8	4	1
fighter	24	10	0	7	5	7	8	1
peg	18	6	2	6	8	8	2	4
draco	24	9	0	6	4	4	10	0
soldier	22	8	1	8	7	6	7	2
mage	18	1	7	7	7	9	1	9
priest	16	0	8	6	8	10	0	10

paladin	36	16	11	15	15	15	15	11
general	38	18	9	16	12	16	20	10
sniper	32	16	12	19	18	15	12	12
SM	32	15	12	18	19	17	13	10
warrior	38	19	9	16	14	16	17	10
SK	32	14	11	15	17	17	11	13
dragon	38	18	9	15	12	13	19	9
halb	36	17	10	17	16	15	16	11
sage	32	10	16	16	16	18	10	18
bishop	30	9	17	15	17	19	9	19

G/S	50	25	20	24	24	24	24	20
marsh	52	27	18	25	21	25	29	19
marks	46	25	21	28	27	24	21	21
true	46	24	21	27	28	26	22	19
reaver	52	28	18	25	23	25	26	19
seraph	46	23	20	24	26	26	20	22
dragon	52	27	18	24	21	22	28	18
sent	50	26	19	26	25	24	25	20
arch	46	19	25	25	25	27	19	27
saint	44	18	26	24	26	28	18	28

thnx paperblade >_>

Edited November 13, 2009 by 8========================D

[Paperblade]

Use code tags then >_>

[dondon151]

First of all, growths for all classes are 70 HP, 45 in the other 7. The reason is that this keeps the differences between the enemy classes static, and fire emblem mechanics don't change exponentially. For example, if myrm had a 10 spd base and fighters had a 5 spd base, and then myrms had a 50% spd growth and fighters was 40%, by 2nd tier the myrm would have 20 and the fighter would have 13. The difference went from 5 to 7. But to double you only need 4+ AS. This would generally make the fighter underpowered (or the myrm annoying to kill since loldoubling).

This is true for AS, but when you have 2 defensive parameters (HP, def) to 1 offensive parameter (str), you're going to find that the amount of damage that units do as a percentage of HP will decrease over time.

[NinjaMonkey]

Nailah

Changes

- Remove her from 1-8 and 1-E.

Which means all of the mages on her side of 1-8, are now going to go for Volug (and Rafiel) instead of her. Not only that, this also means that one of the thieves will actually make it the treasure chests in 1-E and start helping himself to the goodies inside (one of which is a speedwing).

Edited November 14, 2009 by NinjaMonkey

[Progenitus]

First of all, growths for all classes are 70 HP, 45 in the other 7. The reason is that this keeps the differences between the enemy classes static, and fire emblem mechanics don't change exponentially. For example, if myrm had a 10 spd base and fighters had a 5 spd base, and then myrms had a 50% spd growth and fighters was 40%, by 2nd tier the myrm would have 20 and the fighter would have 13. The difference went from 5 to 7. But to double you only need 4+ AS. This would generally make the fighter underpowered (or the myrm annoying to kill since loldoubling).

This is true for AS, but when you have 2 defensive parameters (HP, def) to 1 offensive parameter (str), you're going to find that the amount of damage that units do as a percentage of HP will decrease over time.

weapon mt scales up too.

EDIT: also, and it's really about being able to 2HKO enemies (though that is relevant, but weapon mt can help taht, so w/e). It's the point that the difference between the enemies will only grow. As said, given the cav/fighter base def and growth, if a fighter was taking 2 more damage than the cav, it will end up taking 6 more. The fighters, relative to the cavs, become much less durable (of course, given that they both get doubled).

I know that the fighter would have its own advantages (if I ended up giving the enemy types different growths, the fighters would obv have the highest str growth), but then that can get horrendous for balancing. I don't really want to make any of the enemy types too strong or too weak. Narrowing the focus largely on bases makes it easier to make the enemies roughly equal to each other while still having significant enough differences between them.

Edited November 14, 2009 by 8========================D

[Defeatist Elitist]

Nailah

Changes

- Remove her from 1-8 and 1-E.

Which means all of the mages on her side of 1-8, are now going to go for Volug (and Rafiel) instead of her. Not only that, this also means that one of the thieves will actually make it the treasure chests in 1-E and start helping himself to the goodies inside (one of which is a speedwing).

More or remove some of the enemies. Not too difficult, really.

[Progenitus]

We could also replace Nailah's slot with a PC of your choice, so you have 5 actual slots rather than just 4.

Course no one generally uses that many DB (I never actually need more than 4 slots), but...

[Progenitus]

I think all DB units aside from Nailah and Rafiel need a lck boost. So for now, add +3 to all their (edit) luck bases. Micaiah, Edward, Leo, etc. I'm kinda lazy to edit all the characters. After I post all the characters I'll probably make some touch ups.

With taht I'm going to head on to Elincia.

Edited November 15, 2009 by 8========================D

[Progenitus]

Elincia

Problems

Elincia's biggest issue is combat in part 4. Her bases are crap for part 4, especially with the new revamp to enemy stats (enemies have 21-28 AS at level 1), and she's very frail. Her offensive growths are huge (65 str, 70 spd) but her defensive growths fail (45 HP, 20 def). She does have staves, but...

Changes

- +5 str and spd bases

Results

This makes Elincia into an offensive powerhouse, basically guaranteed to ORKO anything, with 9 move flying canto, and staves. Very poor durability helps balance her.

Oddly enough, the +5 str and spd doesn't really affect her 2-E performance, since she was 2HKOing everything anyway. Well, I guess now she 2HKOs generals.

[Progenitus]

Marcia

Problems

Marcia, as well as the CRKs in general, being able to fight starting from 3-2 already gives them a significant boost. However, she still has problems. Her spd base is pretty awful for someone that's supposed to be fast, and her str and def are very poor, and her str growth is very poor. Basically she needs a buff to two of str/spd/def. Her lck base is also surprisingly poor for a peg (12, wtf).

Changes

- +2 spd and def bases, +6 lck base

- +20 HP growth

Results

The spd and def was more or less necessary, although she ends up capping def quickly (18 base, 35 growth, 21 cap), but it's still helpful for early-mid part 3. Lck was needed so she's not facing crit rates from everything. The HP growth boost helps her durability slightly, and it also means she caps HP earlier in 3rd tier. HP in general is a pretty underpowered stat, so if Marcia is going to burn 70% growth in it, we may as well make it meaningful.

[Progenitus]

Nealuchi

Problems

Aside from the fact that the old raven has more con than 90% of the people in the game, Nealuchi rejoins really late where his awful base att basically overrides his other decent stats (good avoid, passable HP/def, flying/canto. Fairly good growths in general). His skl base is awkwardly low for a raven as well (9, lolwut).

Changes

- Rejoins in 3-7 with Ulki and Janaff.

- +5 skl and lck base

- A Strike

Results

His att will still be pretty poor, but with more availability he has more time to build a strike rank and support to alleviate it. He still has pretty good durability, though the lck base increase was necessary since his new def cap is very low (11, used to be 13). His flying/canto help balance out the rest.

[Progenitus]

Haar

Problems

true story, when IS was naming characters, they accidentally hit the H key instead of the G key and added an extra a.

GAR needed a serious nerf. He was sandbagging the entire time by wearing an eyepatch and still raped everything in the game, and there'd be no stopping him if he removed the eyepatch and swung his axe with two hands.

His problem? He was too damn tanky for his own good. Lack of doubling didn't really matter when you could throw him into a group of enemies and watch him emerge with barely any scratches and a bunch of severely weakened enemies, topped off with ridiculous mobility. With crits being an actual threat though, as well as mages being more frequent, and more importantly an actual threat, we can't nerf his durability TOO much.

Changes

- -2 skl base.

- -15 str/def growths, +15 lck growth

Results

The skl reduction was to make his skl not as overkill (though he still caps easily, just does it later in 2nd tier).

The str/def growth reductions were to keep those stats in check. Also, he indirectly got a nerf because wyverns now have a lower str/skl/def cap than before (in exchange for higher HP/mag/spd/lck/res, stats he won't cap anyway). The lck growth was to help alleviate crit problems he'll be facing with a poor 13 lck base.

[Progenitus]

Brom

Problems

HEY GUYS, WHAT IF HAAR WENT FROM HAVING THE BEST MOBILITY IN THE GAME TO HAVING THE WORST, ON TOP OF A LOT LESS STR? BUT, HAD A BETTER AFFINITY?

Well that was basically Brom. Just another great example of IS' skills at balancing anything.

Brom's only selling point is that he has a lot of durability. And a decent affinity. And that's literally it. Poor str (even with a good base, he has a lollable 40 growth), poor skl (yea for disarm being a waste on him), poor mobility, poor potential (lolz 22 spd cap), poor everything else. And his weapon ranks were, for some strange reason, freaking awful. I mean, C axes, E swords? Nolan had freaking C axes. His weapon ranks were actually a problem.

Changes

- Base level increased to 5, with bases rounding to the nearest whole number

- +25 str and skl growths

- New weapon ranks, B axes/C Swords.

Results

He ends up being pretty underleveled when he joins the GMs in 3-2, so the level increased help him stay on par.

Str and skl growths help him be decent at something other than soaking hits.

'

Weapon ranks means he can actually use decent axes, and more importantly swords that aren't lolslim or lolbronze.

[nflchamp]

Elincia

Problems

Elincia's biggest issue is combat in part 4. Her bases are crap for part 4, especially with the new revamp to enemy stats (enemies have 21-28 AS at level 1), and she's very frail. Her offensive growths are huge (65 str, 70 spd) but her defensive growths fail (45 HP, 20 def). She does have staves, but...

Changes

- +5 str and spd bases

Results

This makes Elincia into an offensive powerhouse, basically guaranteed to ORKO anything, with 9 move flying canto, and staves. Very poor durability helps balance her.

Oddly enough, the +5 str and spd doesn't really affect her 2-E performance, since she was 2HKOing everything anyway. Well, I guess now she 2HKOs generals.

Did I miss something that made Elincia worse than she is now by so much that she actually needs a boost?

[Ether]

I don't think you really fixed Haar.The reasons he were so broken were Str,Def,and Flight,and he still has all of them in spades.I would suggest lowering his bases,not his growths.

[Zkirsche]

I agree with Ether, his str/def need serious nerfing. Like, -4 to both stats. The growths can stay the same though.

[Progenitus]

The plan is to make mages/magic weapons more common. Given that Haar has poor lck and poor res, hopefully that'll help keep him in check.

He doesn't double anything except really slow enemies (and even that is kinda iffy after awhile, since he has 30 spd growth to the enemies' 45), so keeping his str high is fine, especialyl since most other units will see some sort of increase in their offense.

If we drop his def by too much, it makes him vulnerable to physical crits. And it's rather lame to give every single unit good lck. Well, lck growth boost, but that was more to pad his growth total, since after -15 str/def, his total growths came out to 305, which is pretty low.

Edited November 15, 2009 by 8========================D