Marth vs. Ike

[Inui]

Although, assuming the topic is meant for FE, it would be better if we knew from which game or at least if we're supposed to average them all out. We have, like, 3 Marth's (FE1/3/SD) and 2 Ike's (9/10). It's hard to determine which would win in a fight since you can't really directly compare their stats due to the different game systems, so Inui's earlier reasoning is probably the best answer.

FE 9 Ike is much weaker than FE 10 Ike and he still stomps every version of Marth in FE. FE 9 Ike > Marth in any game on a tier list. Ike's weapon is significantly better. Marth can kill Medeus...cool. Ike's stats rape Marth's and Ragnell is way better than Falchion due to 1~2 range.

FE 10 Ike stomps almost every lord ever. Only Sigurd is better.

[Momo]

Yeah. He's just got this free insta-kill-everything-at-two-range sword. And, y'know, great stats. Marth's are just... decent.

He gets Ragnel 3(?) chapters before the end in FE9, haven't played 10 so I'm not sure. By that time, everyone is rapeface anyway. Marth is able to instantly kill any cavs early on, something only Sheeda can do. He's helping a lot more with his special weapon than Ike is.

[Narga_Rocks]

He gets Ragnel 3(?) chapters before the end in FE9, haven't played 10 so I'm not sure. By that time, everyone is rapeface anyway. Marth is able to instantly kill any cavs early on, something only Sheeda can do. He's helping a lot more with his special weapon than Ike is.

He gets it for an absurd amount of time in fe10 (way too long if you care about balance, not long enough if you love insanely broken characters) and even before he gets Ragnell he's still a ORKO machine on everything but armors at a time when not very many of your units actually pull this off.

It's safe to say that fe10 Ike >>> any Marth. And fe10 Ike with transfers >>>>> any Lord ever not named Sigurd. Sigurd vs. transfer Ike is debatable, but of course Ike has no answer to Sigurd's move. Canto isn't a dealbreaker, Ike is ORKOing when others are not just like Sigurd is doing in fe4. FE4 Javelins somehow manage to be worse than Wind Edges, and once Ike gets Ragnell, Sigurd's Tyrfing doesn't really compete and Ike has Ragnell for longer relative to total availability. The move difference is what makes it debatable, nothing else. However, the move difference is such a huge deal that it is likely enough to make Sigurd > Transfer Ike.

[Inui]

Ike has nothing on Sigurd even if he has transfer data with all stats capped. Ike still wouldn't even be the best unit in his game due to Laguz kings and other super broken stuff.

Sigurd is the undeniable best unit the entire time he's there. Levin gets to very briefly (ass end of Chapter 4 and very start of Chapter 5) exceed Sigurd in combat and then Sigurd gets the Tyrfing and becomes God. Before Levin gets Holsety, Sigurd is wrecking everything and not dying, and even after that Sigurd is still way better due to having a horse.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

Ike has nothing on Sigurd even if he has transfer data with all stats capped. Ike still wouldn't even be the best unit in his game due to Laguz kings and other super broken stuff.

If you're talking about a tier list setting, Ike is easily > Laguz royals. All that might be better than him are Reyson and Haar.

[Inui]

I wouldn't put him above Nailah or Tibarn. Especially Tibarn. Either way, Ike has competition and is surrounded by other broken units. The gap between Sigurd and every other unit in the Prologue is so huge it's not even funny, and this gap never really shrinks until Levin gets the Holsety. He rapes Lex even with his Elite and Ayra can't compete due to lacking his mobility. Brigid has a broken weapon, but lol @ her class and her mobility compared to Sigurd's. I guess Ethlin is awesome for mobile healing and being able to fight axe users with no risk of dying, but she leaves and that still fails compared to maxed mobility, never dying, and killing everything in one round besides some bosses.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Inui

[Fayt Zelpher]

I wouldn't put him above Nailah or Tibarn. Especially Tibarn. Either way, Ike has competition and is surrounded by other broken units. The gap between Sigurd and every other unit in the Prologue is so huge it's not even funny, and this gap never really shrinks until Levin gets the Holsety. I guess Ethlin is awesome for mobile healing and being able to fight axe users with no risk of dying, but that still fails compared to maxed mobility, never dying, and killing everything in one round besides some bosses.

Usually, Nailah is considered superior due to having utility in 1-8 and 1-E, where she can basically eat the entire map without ever so much as getting hit, let alone hurt. While I think that Tibarn is better, I fail to see a good reason why Nailah isn't more useful from a tier list perspective.

[Florete]

I wouldn't put him above Nailah or Tibarn. Especially Tibarn. Either way, Ike has competition and is surrounded by other broken units.

I would, and I did. I've never even heard of anyone try to get him any lower than below Haar. Nailah and Tibarn are too lacking in the availability department.

Also, I know Sigurd > Ike, I wasn't arguing that. I'm saying Ike > Laguz royals, maybe not in raw stats, but overall.

[Inui]

Availability is overrated. Nailah has enough of it, more than any other Laguz royals, and she's broken while there. Ike is, quite frankly, pretty outclassed by Tibarn and others when they are around, and Ike being amazing in his chapters isn't that impressive considering how absolutely broken everyone else and Titania still being better than him for a while. I personally care more about how good a unit is when they are around, and Tibarn is pretty much the best unit you have while he's there and Ike can never say he's the best unit.

I must say that seeing Volug in top tier is quite odd. He's good. I can see that. I just can't see him above so many of those units you have a tier or two lower. For instance, he's inferior to every Laguz royal and many other units even if he's pretty much maxed out, so I can't see him being that high making any sense. Oh well.

I don't care enough about FE 10 to argue about it much. Just my brief thoughts. Debating that game is such a hassle due to so many variables being involved. It's why I gave up on making a tier list. It can never be truly accurate.

[Florete]

Hm, should we take this to the tier list?

Availability is overrated. Nailah has enough of it, more than any other Laguz royals, and she's broken while there. Ike is, quite frankly, pretty outclassed by Tibarn and others when they are around, and Ike being amazing in his chapters isn't that impressive considering how absolutely broken everyone else and Titania still being better than him for a while. I personally care more about how good a unit is when they are around, and Tibarn is pretty much the best unit you have while he's there and Ike can never say he's the best unit.

Before Endgame, Nailah has 4 maps. Ike has 15. That pretty much means Nailah has to be 4 times as good as Ike in her maps than he is in his to be better overall. Sorry, but I don't see that happening, especially when 4-4 is littered with 1-2 range enemies. Plus, Ike's team is not at all broken:

Titania: No, she isn't better than him. She has doubling issues and can run into durability problems.

Shinon: Sniper, enough said.

Gatrie: Doubling problems for a while, mobility problems forever, occasional accuracy problems.

Mia: Str issues make her rely on Adept, durability issues before support is built.

Boyd: More likely to be doubled than double, occasional accuracy issues.

Oscar: Spd cap and Str issues.

Rolf: See Shinon, only worse.

Mist/Rhys: Healers.

Soren: Lol.

Haar: The only arguable competition, and even he has doubling problems without some resources.

Nephenee: Str, durability.

Brom: Offense overall, mobility.

Heather: Knives + 25% Str = no combat 4 u.

Ilyana: See: Soren.

Ike's problems? He might be borderline on doubling a bit later. Otherwise, rape face that never dies. If it's the transfer version, even the possible doubling problems disappear.

I must say that seeing Volug in top tier is quite odd. He's good. I can see that. I just can't see him above so many of those units you have a tier or two lower. For instance, he's inferior to every Laguz royal and many other units even if he's pretty much maxed out, so I can't see him being that high making any sense. Oh well.

Part 1 + part 3.

I don't care enough about FE 10 to argue about it much. Just my brief thoughts. Debating that game is such a hassle due to so many variables being involved. It's why I gave up on making a tier list. It can never be truly accurate.

I find that those reasons are what makes me like it more than other FE games. And it's my belief that no FE tier list can be 100% accurate since ideas and standards are constantly changing, but most would agree that the current FE10 list is very accurate.

[Inui]

Well, I don't agree that it's accurate, and that's what matters most to me.

For instance, you claim Shinon is worse than Ike based solely on his class, when I'd say Snipers are vastly improved in this game and nowhere near horrible anymore. I don't understand why Shinon being a Sniper matters anymore. It's not a GBA game.

When I played that game, Titania mutilated everything and never died and Mia started off doing the same thing. Ike was amazing, but he never stood out as much as plenty of other units to me.

Oh well. I do NOT care enough to debate you point for point about it. If it was a GBA one, perhaps I would.

[Florete]

Well, I don't agree that it's accurate, and that's what matters most to me.

Seeing as you were not involved in any of the 4,000+ posts that shaped it, this does not surprise me. In fact, I'd be surprised if you thought it was perfectly accurate simply because I know you don't discuss it often.

For instance, you claim Shinon is worse than Ike based solely on his class, when I'd say Snipers are vastly improved in this game and nowhere near horrible anymore. I don't understand why Shinon being a Sniper matters anymore. It's not a GBA game.

They are better, that's for sure, but the main issue still exists. Shinon only gets to attack one enemy per phase most of the time, or gets to counter with a very limited, rather weak weapon. He also can run into Str issues along the way. Once he gets the Double Bow he's a total badass, but that doesn't happen until Endgame.

When I played that game, Titania mutilated everything and never died and Mia started off doing the same thing. Ike was amazing, but he never stood out as much as plenty of other units to me.

NM? PEMN? Although I'm surprised you think that highly of Mia, at least it sounds like you do. Most who don't discuss the game as often to find out what makes her so great think she's more in the Upper Mid area.

Oh well. I do NOT care enough to debate you point for point about it. If it was a GBA one, perhaps I would.

Oh, but you should. This is fun. In fact, you should respond to this very post in the tier thread. It needs a bump.

[Inui]

They are better, that's for sure, but the main issue still exists. Shinon only gets to attack one enemy per phase most of the time, or gets to counter with a very limited, rather weak weapon. He also can run into Str issues along the way. Once he gets the Double Bow he's a total badass, but that doesn't happen until Endgame.

Can't they attack from three spaces away after becoming Marksmen and can't they wtfobliterate fliers and Laguz (Beastfoe) with Crossbows?

NM? PEMN? Although I'm surprised you think that highly of Mia, at least it sounds like you do. Most who don't discuss the game as often to find out what makes her so great think she's more in the Upper Mid area.

Please explain what those acronyms mean. Is the NM one normal mode? If so, sure. Hard mode in that game is a chore. Artificial difficulty because you can't check enemy attack ranges and no weapon triangle decreasing the amount of strategy involved. I do think highly of Mia in FE 10. Not that highly, but certainly more than her FE 9 self.

Oh, but you should. This is fun. In fact, you should respond to this very post in the tier thread. It needs a bump.

I don't think I can do much in an FE 10 debate/discussion. I only played through it a few times and haven't played it since shortly after its release date. Same goes for FE 9, too.

[Florete]

Can't they attack from three spaces away after becoming Marksmen and can't they wtfobliterate fliers and Laguz (Beastfoe) with Crossbows?

Yes and yes (although only Pegs/Hawks/Ravens for fliers, not Dragonriders). Unfortunately, the only Laguz Shinon can ever fight are in 4-5 and he'll never encounter PK's unless he goes to 4-1 (thus he won't be in 4-5). 3 range doesn't give him the ability to counter.

Please explain what those acronyms mean. Is the NM one normal mode? If so, sure. Hard mode in that game is a chore. Artificial difficulty because you can't check enemy attack ranges and no weapon triangle decreasing the amount of strategy involved. I do think highly of Mia in FE 10. Not that highly, but certainly more than her FE 9 self.

Yeah, NM is Normal Mode, and you should know PEMN. And the tier list is based off Hard Mode, so your mileage will vary if you argue NM. Regardless of what might be artificial about it (counting enemy attack range obviously doesn't come up in tier arguments), it's still harder than NM, which is piss easy if you know what you're doing. I actually find the lack of WT nice for debating; none of that "lolMajority Lances" bullshit will come up because it no longer matters.

I don't think I can do much in an FE 10 debate/discussion. I only played through it a few times and haven't played it since shortly after its release date. Same goes for FE 9, too.

I'm in a somewhat similar boat. I haven't played it in months, and only beat HM twice (I had two more runs that I just never finished, though). Hell, I was contributing in the FE6 list before I even played that game's HM. I started around the time that topic really picked up.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Inui]

Yeah, NM is Normal Mode, and you should know PEMN. And the tier list is based off Hard Mode, so your mileage will vary if you argue NM. Regardless of what might be artificial about it (counting enemy attack range obviously doesn't come up in tier arguments), it's still harder than NM, which is piss easy if you know what you're doing. I actually find the lack of WT nice for debating; none of that "lolMajority Lances" bullshit will come up because it no longer matters.

Personal Experience Means Nothing? That's all I can think of.

The artificial difficulty of having to do that, especially with climbing up and down things and stuff like that, is a huge pain in the ass. The lack of WT is gay as it detracts from strategy. That's just my take on those things. I wish enemy stats were just buffed and enemy density went up and that was that, but they had to go and change the mechanics of the game to be gay.

I'm in a somewhat similar boat. I haven't played it in months, and only beat HM twice (I had two more runs that I just never finished, though). Hell, I was contributing in the FE6 list before I even played that game's HM. I started around the time that topic really picked up.

I'm sure I could hold my own, but I don't have much to contribute and would just get raped by big meanie pants people like you and Interceptor if I decided to argue some point because I don't have much knowledge in those games. It's also much easier to debate GBA games without even playing them due to how much more straightforward and simple they are. FE 10 is insanely complicated and variable, which is why I abstain from debates about it in most cases.

[Florete]

Personal Experience Means Nothing? That's all I can think of.

I haven't heard of anything else that acronym stands for.

The artificial difficulty of having to do that, especially with climbing up and down things and stuff like that, is a huge pain in the ass.

I don't think anyone likes it since it's just fake difficulty, but it doesn't come up in tier discussions so it only matters when you're playing.

I wish enemy stats were just buffed and enemy density went up and that was that, but they had to go and change the mechanics of the game to be gay.

Enemy density wasn't even buffed at all from NM to HM. Laziness on IS' part?

It's also much easier to debate GBA games without even playing them due to how much more straightforward and simple they are. FE 10 is insanely complicated and variable, which is why I abstain from debates about it in most cases.

Easier, but as I mentioned before, that's what I actually prefer about FE10. It's more complicated. You don't have to, of course, I'm just sayin'.

[Inui]

I don't think anyone likes it since it's just fake difficulty, but it doesn't come up in tier discussions so it only matters when you're playing.

Enemy density wasn't even buffed at all from NM to HM. Laziness on IS' part?

Easier, but as I mentioned before, that's what I actually prefer about FE10. It's more complicated. You don't have to, of course, I'm just sayin'.

It comes up when I'm playing, which is why hard mode annoys me and I only played it once and didn't care to learn anything about it.

That doesn't surprise me.

To each their own. I don't like how opinion-based some stuff is in FE 10 and how much there is to debate, lol. I like straightforward stuff. Half of the cast being extremely broken is so boring, too.

[Narga_Rocks]

To each their own. I don't like how opinion-based some stuff is in FE 10 and how much there is to debate, lol. I like straightforward stuff. Half of the cast being extremely broken is so boring, too.

Significantly fewer units are broken on HM. Just the royals (of which there are never very many at one time until 4-E) and Ike, really. Well, Haar if you raise him right. Speedwing in 2-E and crown once he hits 24 AS (probably around 3-8, so that you can steal the DB's crown in 3-7). But even with a wing on Titania and a wing on Haar, they still aren't so great at doubling in the first half of part 3.

Like RF said, if you know what you are doing NM is disgustingly easy.

[Terra]

Marth wins! *buys Ike some beer*

[aire99]

I am by far the best and most knowledgeable Smash player in the entire Fire Emblem community. I'm not even trying to be egotistical here. It's the truth.

I am also one of the best Ike users. Most will name me as a top 10 Ike in this nation, and possibly even top 5.

I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that Ike is complete and total garbage with a plethora of 80/20 match-ups amongst almost every character outside of low and mid tier, making him totally worthless in a tournament environment. Even garbage characters like Yoshi, Mario, Lucas, and Ness boast better match-up ratios with the good characters (for instance, Yoshi vs MK is often considered 60/40 or slightly worse, which is way better than Ike's 80/20).

Ike, in my educated opinion, is the 5th worst character in the game when you weigh match-ups against the good characters more heavily than anything else. Zelda, Captain Falcon, Link, and Ganondorf are the only ones worse than him.

In low tier tournaments, Ike is good.

We are currently working on the next tier list in the SBR as well as a match-up chart. I assure you that Ike is going down down down.

FIGHT ME IN SSB4. I want a title too!

[dondon151]

hoooly necro this thread is back from when i was still a young'un

[Luchi]

lol Roy. Guess he's still the weakest of the bunch. I do this a lot, seeing how the FE units were to compare had they all been levelled the same way.

Fair play for everyone. Ike used his merged PoR and RD growths, everyone was levelled from lvls 1-60 with Blossom. Marth wins, but Sigurd roflstomps. Celice is Sigurd on crack.

In regards to Marth vs Ike, Marth wins. You can't take a Lord from 1990 and make him fight a Lord in 2007. It ain't fair.

E: Haha, a necro. How amusing.

Edited December 4, 2014 by SSL

[Integrity]

whoa this almost predates me